Was Adam, Eve and Creation "Perfect" or "Very Good"?

[Nancy]

I do not see where God created the world "perfect". I do believe Adam and Eve were perfectly made "in His image", probably heartier and stronger, bigger maybe? But if they were created as "perfect beings" then, they would not have sinned. I can see God, giving them free will, with the ability TO sin. And, of course, God knew they would sin. He want's His children to choose to Love Him. It could also be that the Glory of God's love and grace could not be realized unless Adam and Eve did sin. Or, maybe it is a combination?
:)

 

[101G]

I do not see where God created the world "perfect". I do believe Adam and Eve were perfectly made "in His image", probably heartier and stronger, bigger maybe? But if they were created as "perfect beings" then, they would not have sinned. I can see God, giving them free will, with the ability TO sin. And, of course, God knew they would sin. He want's His children to choose to Love Him. It could also be that the Glory of God's love and grace could not be realized unless Adam and Eve did sin. Or, maybe it is a combination?
:)

agreed, so say what God himself said, Genesis 1:31 "And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, [it was] very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day."

PICJAG.

 

[amadeus]

I do not see where God created the world "perfect". I do believe Adam and Eve were perfectly made "in His image", probably heartier and stronger, bigger maybe? But if they were created as "perfect beings" then, they would not have sinned. I can see God, giving them free will, with the ability TO sin. And, of course, God knew they would sin. He want's His children to choose to Love Him. It could also be that the Glory of God's love and grace could not be realized unless Adam and Eve did sin. Or, maybe it is a combination?
:)

"And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day." Gen 1:31

Very Good

d[m M@`od (meh-ode'); , Strong #: 3966

adv

1. exceedingly, much subst
2. might, force, abundance n m
3. muchness, force, abundance, exceedingly
   1. force, might
   2. exceedingly, greatly, very (idioms showing magnitude or degree)
      1. exceedingly
      2. up to abundance, to a great degree, exceedingly
      3. with muchness, muchness

KJV Word Usage and Count
very 137
greatly 49
sore 23
exceeding 18
great 12
exceedingly 11
much 10
exceeding 6
exceedingly (03966) 5
diligently 4
good 3
might 2
mightily 2
miscellaneous 17

Even if not "perfect", was not the possibility there? Consider what King David advised him son and heir to the throne, Solomon:

"And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever." I Chron 28:9

Perfect:

~lX Shalem (shaw-lame'); Adjective, Strong #: 8003

1. complete, safe, peaceful, perfect, whole, full, at peace
   1. complete
      1. full, perfect
      2. finished
   2. safe, unharmed
   3. peace (of covenant of peace, mind)
      1. perfect, complete (of keeping covenant relation)

KJV Word Usage and Count
perfect 16
whole 4
full 2
just 1
peaceable 1
miscellaneous 3

Heart:

bl Leb (labe); Noun Masculine, Strong #: 3820

1. inner man, mind, will, heart, understanding
   1. inner part, midst
      1. midst (of things)
      2. heart (of man)
      3. soul, heart (of man)
      4. mind, knowledge, thinking, reflection, memory
      5. inclination, resolution, determination (of will)
      6. conscience
      7. heart (of moral character)
      8. as seat of appetites
      9. as seat of emotions and passions 1a
2. as seat of courage

KJV Word Usage and Count
heart 508
mind 12
midst 11
understanding 10
hearted 7
wisdom 6
comfortably 4
well 4
considered 2
friendly 2
kindly 2
stouthearted 2
care 2
miscellaneous 21

David was telling Solomon to get his heart pointed in the right direction. When and if he did that would he not be "perfect" in the eyes of God at the moment... even if his time was not yet finished?

Was the following the following request made by David to God answered in the affirmative?

"Keep me as the apple of the eye, hide me under the shadow of thy wings" Psalm 17:8

Here we have Samuel admonishing Saul after that king had decided to fill in for the late prophet. Are true prophets of God ever really late?

"But now thy kingdom shall not continue: the LORD hath sought him a man after his own heart, and the LORD hath commanded him to be captain over his people, because thou hast not kept that which the LORD commanded thee." I Sam 13:14

Did David not accomplish that which Saul failed to accomplish?

 

[Nancy]

"And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day." Gen 1:31

Very Good

d[m M@`od (meh-ode'); , Strong #: 3966

adv

1. exceedingly, much subst
2. might, force, abundance n m
3. muchness, force, abundance, exceedingly
   1. force, might
   2. exceedingly, greatly, very (idioms showing magnitude or degree)
      1. exceedingly
      2. up to abundance, to a great degree, exceedingly
      3. with muchness, muchness

KJV Word Usage and Count
very 137
greatly 49
sore 23
exceeding 18
great 12
exceedingly 11
much 10
exceeding 6
exceedingly (03966) 5
diligently 4
good 3
might 2
mightily 2
miscellaneous 17

Even if not "perfect", was not the possibility there? Consider what King David advised him son and heir to the throne, Solomon:

"And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever." I Chron 28:9

Perfect:

~lX Shalem (shaw-lame'); Adjective, Strong #: 8003

1. complete, safe, peaceful, perfect, whole, full, at peace
   1. complete
      1. full, perfect
      2. finished
   2. safe, unharmed
   3. peace (of covenant of peace, mind)
      1. perfect, complete (of keeping covenant relation)

KJV Word Usage and Count
perfect 16
whole 4
full 2
just 1
peaceable 1
miscellaneous 3

Heart:

bl Leb (labe); Noun Masculine, Strong #: 3820

1. inner man, mind, will, heart, understanding
   1. inner part, midst
      1. midst (of things)
      2. heart (of man)
      3. soul, heart (of man)
      4. mind, knowledge, thinking, reflection, memory
      5. inclination, resolution, determination (of will)
      6. conscience
      7. heart (of moral character)
      8. as seat of appetites
      9. as seat of emotions and passions 1a
2. as seat of courage

KJV Word Usage and Count
heart 508
mind 12
midst 11
understanding 10
hearted 7
wisdom 6
comfortably 4
well 4
considered 2
friendly 2
kindly 2
stouthearted 2
care 2
miscellaneous 21

David was telling Solomon to get his heart pointed in the right direction. When and if he did that would he not be "perfect" in the eyes of God at the moment... even if his time was not yet finished?

Was the following the following request made by David to God answered in the affirmative?

"Keep me as the apple of the eye, hide me under the shadow of thy wings" Psalm 17:8

Here we have Samuel admonishing Saul after that king had decided to fill in for the late prophet. Are true prophets of God ever really late?

"But now thy kingdom shall not continue: the LORD hath sought him a man after his own heart, and the LORD hath commanded him to be captain over his people, because thou hast not kept that which the LORD commanded thee." I Sam 13:14

Did David not accomplish that which Saul failed to accomplish?

Yes David did succeed where Saul failed.
"Are true prophets of God ever really late?"
Lol, I would think not! But, wasn't it Samuel who anointed Saul King? I'm not real up on the I and II Samuel, except for most of the King David stories. Was Samuel a false prophet?? Or was he just disobeying God by Giving Israel a King before God's appointed time?

 

[amadeus]

Yes David did succeed where Saul failed.
"Are true prophets of God ever really late?"
Lol, I would think not! But, wasn't it Samuel who anointed Saul King? I'm not real up on the I and II Samuel, except for most of the King David stories. Was Samuel a false prophet?? Or was he just disobeying God by Giving Israel a King before God's appointed time?

According to Saul, the prophet Samuel, was late for their appointment. Rather than wait on Samuel [wait on God?] Saul took it upon himself to make the sacrifice which Samuel was supposed to make...

Saul was anointed to be king by Samuel as Samuel was directed by God to do. Saul initially had the same promises made to him that were made later to David. Saul could have done it right, but he kept on looking at the people and concerning himself more with they would think than what God required. Saul tried to blame others or to justify himself when he disobeyed God. When David later disobeyed God he immediately owned up to his errors and was ready to take the punishment. The punishment for either or adultery or murder under the law God gave to Moses was death. But because David's heart was right [pointed perfectly in the right direction] we see these words spoken to David by the prophet Nathan after the events with Bathsheba and Uriah [her husband]:

"And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the LORD. And Nathan said unto David, The LORD also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die." II Sam 12:13

David recognized that he was guilty and the punishment for either crime was death. God "put away" his sin... This would be the perfection of David's heart. Are we willing to receive the punishment which our own actions and inactions deserve?

 

[Enoch111]

I do not see where God created the world "perfect".

A PERFECT GOD CREATED A PERFECT WORLD. BELIEVE IT.

 

[Enoch111]

But if they were created as "perfect beings" then, they would not have sinned.

They were given free will while being perfect. They could have VERY EASILY chosen to obey God. In fact there was absolutely no good reason for them to disobey.

 

[Nancy]

They were given free will while being perfect. They could have VERY EASILY chosen to obey God. In fact there was absolutely no good reason for them to disobey.

No, of course there was no good reason for them to disobey yet, disobey they did and caused the fall of creation as it was. They sinned so, no they were not perfect IMHO. Does being given free will suddenly take away their "perfectness"? Jesus was the only man who was perfect in every way and NEVER sinned...there MUST be different definitions of the word "perfect" in the scriptures, no?

 

[Nancy]

According to Saul, the prophet Samuel, was late for their appointment. Rather than wait on Samuel [wait on God?] Saul took it upon himself to make the sacrifice which Samuel was supposed to make...

Saul was anointed to be king by Samuel as Samuel was directed by God to do. Saul initially had the same promises made to him that were made later to David. Saul could have done it right, but he kept on looking at the people and concerning himself more with they would think than what God required. Saul tried to blame others or to justify himself when he disobeyed God. When David later disobeyed God he immediately owned up to his errors and was ready to take the punishment. The punishment for either or adultery or murder under the law God gave to Moses was death. But because David's heart was right [pointed perfectly in the right direction] we see these words spoken to David by the prophet Nathan after the events with Bathsheba and Uriah [her husband]:

"And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the LORD. And Nathan said unto David, The LORD also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die." II Sam 12:13

David recognized that he was guilty and the punishment for either crime was death. God "put away" his sin... This would be the perfection of David's heart. Are we willing to receive the punishment which our own actions and inactions deserve?

Now it comes back to me. I need to get into the OT again...been awhile since I've really looked into, really looked into it. Except for cross references, that is :)
His grace is boundless!

 

[Enoch111]

They sinned so, no they were not perfect IMHO.

The way that should be stated is that they were CREATED PERFECT on the day they were created (just like Lucifer was created perfect) but they voluntarily chose to become imperfect the day they disobeyed God.

 

[101G]

"And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day." Gen 1:31

Very Good

d[m M@`od (meh-ode'); , Strong #: 3966

adv

1. exceedingly, much subst
2. might, force, abundance n m
3. muchness, force, abundance, exceedingly
   1. force, might
   2. exceedingly, greatly, very (idioms showing magnitude or degree)
      1. exceedingly
      2. up to abundance, to a great degree, exceedingly
      3. with muchness, muchness

KJV Word Usage and Count
very 137
greatly 49
sore 23
exceeding 18
great 12
exceedingly 11
much 10
exceeding 6
exceedingly (03966) 5
diligently 4
good 3
might 2
mightily 2
miscellaneous 17

Even if not "perfect", was not the possibility there? Consider what King David advised him son and heir to the throne, Solomon:

"And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever." I Chron 28:9

Perfect:

~lX Shalem (shaw-lame'); Adjective, Strong #: 8003

1. complete, safe, peaceful, perfect, whole, full, at peace
   1. complete
      1. full, perfect
      2. finished
   2. safe, unharmed
   3. peace (of covenant of peace, mind)
      1. perfect, complete (of keeping covenant relation)

KJV Word Usage and Count
perfect 16
whole 4
full 2
just 1
peaceable 1
miscellaneous 3

Heart:

bl Leb (labe); Noun Masculine, Strong #: 3820

1. inner man, mind, will, heart, understanding
   1. inner part, midst
      1. midst (of things)
      2. heart (of man)
      3. soul, heart (of man)
      4. mind, knowledge, thinking, reflection, memory
      5. inclination, resolution, determination (of will)
      6. conscience
      7. heart (of moral character)
      8. as seat of appetites
      9. as seat of emotions and passions 1a
2. as seat of courage

KJV Word Usage and Count
heart 508
mind 12
midst 11
understanding 10
hearted 7
wisdom 6
comfortably 4
well 4
considered 2
friendly 2
kindly 2
stouthearted 2
care 2
miscellaneous 21

David was telling Solomon to get his heart pointed in the right direction. When and if he did that would he not be "perfect" in the eyes of God at the moment... even if his time was not yet finished?

Was the following the following request made by David to God answered in the affirmative?

"Keep me as the apple of the eye, hide me under the shadow of thy wings" Psalm 17:8

Here we have Samuel admonishing Saul after that king had decided to fill in for the late prophet. Are true prophets of God ever really late?

"But now thy kingdom shall not continue: the LORD hath sought him a man after his own heart, and the LORD hath commanded him to be captain over his people, because thou hast not kept that which the LORD commanded thee." I Sam 13:14

Did David not accomplish that which Saul failed to accomplish?

agreed, Psalms 27:14 "Wait on the LORD: be of good courage, and he shall strengthen thine heart: wait, I say, on the LORD".

WHY wait? ... Hebrews 12:2 "Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [our] faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

there's that "finisher".

PICJAG.

 

[Episkopos]

I do not see where God created the world "perfect". I do believe Adam and Eve were perfectly made "in His image", probably heartier and stronger, bigger maybe? But if they were created as "perfect beings" then, they would not have sinned. I can see God, giving them free will, with the ability TO sin. And, of course, God knew they would sin. He want's His children to choose to Love Him. It could also be that the Glory of God's love and grace could not be realized unless Adam and Eve did sin. Or, maybe it is a combination?
:)

Only God is perfect. But Adam was created in God's image...without sin of any kind. He had no experience of sin...and therefore didn't have the understand or wisdom to resist sin...unless through a simple trust in obedience to God. Because of free will the risk of sin was always there considering how wily the devil is.

In the NT we are restored to the image of God by entering into Jesus Christ...who IS God. This is a higher level...but the basic return to fellowship with God is there.

God has upped the ante.

We are not the ones doing well...He is. Our old natures can never be unbent into perfection. We need to abide in One who knew no sin and imparts His life to us. We enter into Him to do the works of Christ. It is HIS perfection we are to walk in...not our own.

So we seek after a righteousness not our own.

 

[101G]

Only God is perfect. But Adam was created in God's image...without sin of any kind. He had no experience of sin...and therefore didn't have the understand or wisdom to resist sin...unless through a simple trust in obedience to God. Because of free will the risk of sin was always there considering how wily the devil is.

In the NT we are restored to the image of God by entering into Jesus Christ...who IS God. This is a higher level...but the basic return to fellowship with God is there.

God has upped the ante.

We are not the ones doing well...He is. Our old natures can never be unbent into perfection. We need to abide in One who knew no sin and imparts His life to us. We enter into Him to do the works of Christ. It is HIS perfection we are to walk in...not our own.

So we seek after a righteousness not our own.

agreed, our old nature is our Adam in the Garden. but thanks be to God we have a redeemer, and a Helper/Comforter. even when we make a mistake. forgivness is at the door. my God what a wonderful God we have. a loving God. a mighty God.

PICJAG.

 

[Nancy]

Only God is perfect. But Adam was created in God's image...without sin of any kind. He had no experience of sin...and therefore didn't have the understand or wisdom to resist sin...unless through a simple trust in obedience to God. Because of free will the risk of sin was always there considering how wily the devil is.

In the NT we are restored to the image of God by entering into Jesus Christ...who IS God. This is a higher level...but the basic return to fellowship with God is there.

God has upped the ante.

We are not the ones doing well...He is. Our old natures can never be unbent into perfection. We need to abide in One who knew no sin and imparts His life to us. We enter into Him to do the works of Christ. It is HIS perfection we are to walk in...not our own.

So we seek after a righteousness not our own.

Yes, agreed. Thank you! Yes, they had no knowledge of good and evil until they ate of the tree. :)

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

I do not see where God created the world "perfect". I do believe Adam and Eve were perfectly made "in His image", probably heartier and stronger, bigger maybe? But if they were created as "perfect beings" then, they would not have sinned. I can see God, giving them free will, with the ability TO sin. And, of course, God knew they would sin. He want's His children to choose to Love Him. It could also be that the Glory of God's love and grace could not be realized unless Adam and Eve did sin. Or, maybe it is a combination?
:)

I'm so sick of people saying God wanted Adam and Eve to sin, so that glory of God's love and grace could be realized. I'm also sick of people saying that God knew Adam and Eve would sin when I see nowhere in scripture that says that. People tell us their interpretation or meaning of a phrase or word in scripture and expect us to believe that God is hemmed in with imperfect people definitions and interpretation of scripture. Don't get me wrong people have a right to their meanings and interpretation of scripture but that doesn't mean we have to agree with it if what they say doesn't agree with scripture no matter if they say it does.

 

[Nancy]

I'm so sick of people saying God wanted Adam and Eve to sin, so that glory of God's love and grace could be realized. I'm also sick of people saying that God knew Adam and Eve would sin when I see nowhere in scripture that says that. People tell us their interpretation or meaning of a phrase or word in scripture and expect us to believe that God is hemmed in with imperfect people definitions and interpretation of scripture. Don't get me wrong people have a right to their meanings and interpretation of scripture but that doesn't mean we have to agree with it if what they say doesn't agree with scripture no matter if they say it does.

Not "WANTED" them to sin but He "KNEW" that they would...do you think He did not realize what they would do?

 

[marks]

I do not see where God created the world "perfect". I do believe Adam and Eve were perfectly made "in His image", probably heartier and stronger, bigger maybe? But if they were created as "perfect beings" then, they would not have sinned. I can see God, giving them free will, with the ability TO sin. And, of course, God knew they would sin. He want's His children to choose to Love Him. It could also be that the Glory of God's love and grace could not be realized unless Adam and Eve did sin. Or, maybe it is a combination?
:)

Hi Nancy,

I'm of the opinion that we did not need to know evil to know and appreciate good. I think we can freely love even if we've never hated. I do think He wants for us to choose Him. So He created Adam perfectly suited to His desire. A man, loved, wanted, but able to choose, and therefore, at risk of choosing poorly.

I think that at the end of it all, in God's redemption of both man, and creation, we will be the final result God wanted at the beginning, in spite of our rebellion.

Much love!

 

[Nancy]

Hi Nancy,

I'm of the opinion that we did not need to know evil to know and appreciate good. I think we can freely love even if we've never hated. I do think He wants for us to choose Him. So He created Adam perfectly suited to His desire. A man, loved, wanted, but able to choose, and therefore, at risk of choosing poorly.

I think that at the end of it all, in God's redemption of both man, and creation, we will be the final result God wanted at the beginning, in spite of our rebellion.

Much love!

I also believe there was no other way to even allow man free will to choose whom they will serve. :)

 

[Enoch111]

I'm also sick of people saying that God knew Adam and Eve would sin when I see nowhere in scripture that says that.

But we do know from Scripture that God know the end from the beginning. That covers this.

 

[aspen]

The were created perfect humans because they loved perfectly before they didn’t