Was Adam, Eve and Creation "Perfect" or "Very Good"?

[GodsGrace]

No, of course there was no good reason for them to disobey yet, disobey they did and caused the fall of creation as it was. They sinned so, no they were not perfect IMHO. Does being given free will suddenly take away their "perfectness"? Jesus was the only man who was perfect in every way and NEVER sinned...there MUST be different definitions of the word "perfect" in the scriptures, no?

NOTHING IS PERFECT EXCEPT FOR GOD.

Evil already existed when they were put in the Garden.
They had free will.
They had preternatural gifts that were lost when they sinned.
If they were perfect, they would NOT have sinned.

 

[aspen]

Perfect means different things for different creations. Trees are perfect because they act like trees - same with animals who act as they were created to act. We are perfect when we love perfectly, which we cannot do apart from Christ. When Christ calls us to be perfect like he is perfect he is calling us to practice our sanctification by loving God and neighbor until we are perfected.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

But we do know from Scripture that God know the end from the beginning. That covers this.

I understand that those who read things like, "God knows the end from the beginning" reason as you and others do that God knew Adam was going to eat from the forbidden tree before creating him but you really don't realize what you're saying about God when you reason that way. What I mean is if God knew before he created Adam that he would eat of the forbidden fruit then that means that when God commanded Adam to not eat any of the fruit from the forbidden tree God was commanding him to obey a command that was impossible for Adam to obey. You see God is infallible so if God saw that Adam was going to eat from the forbidden tree before creating him then no one can prove what God saw to be wrong. If Adam was capable of obeying that command when God as you say saw that Adam would eat of the forbidden tree before creating him then that means Adam had the ability or capacity to prove God wrong. God however is infallible as I said so if God did see Adam eat of the forbidden tree it was impossible for Adam to obey that command to refrain from eating from the forbidden tree. God doesn't ask the impossible from us so since God did command Adam to refrain from eating from the forbidden tree that shows that God didn't look and see that Adam was going to eat from the forbidden tree before creating him otherwise God knew he was asking the impossible from Adam. Like I said God is infallible you or me nor any person who is of creation can't prove God wrong. It's impossible for our freewill to prove God wrong. No one in creation has the ability or capacity to prove God wrong. If someone in creation had the ability to prove God wrong then God wouldn't be infallible.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Not "WANTED" them to sin but He "KNEW" that they would...do you think He did not realize what they would do?

Just because God knew what he created, meaning God knew because he created Adam with free will he had the capacity of disobedience doesn't mean he knew he would disobey. God is Love so God hopes and trusts His creation. That means God trusted and hoped Adam to be obedient. If God knew they would sin how could God hoped and trusted they would be obedient. People such as you who reason that God knew Adam would sin are Basically saying that God neither trusted or hoped that Adam would be obedient to his command. How can there be love if there is no trust. You honestly believe that God didn't trust Adam?

 

[GodsGrace]

Perfect means different things for different creations. Trees are perfect because they act like trees - same with animals who act as they were created to act. We are perfect when we love perfectly, which we cannot do apart from Christ. When Christ calls us to be perfect like he is perfect he is calling us to practice our sanctification by loving God and neighbor until we are perfected.

Hey Aspen,,,,
Trees are not perfect.
One of mine got sick during the winter..we had to cut it down.
If it was perfect, it would not have gotten sick.

What do YOU mean by perfect?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I do not see where God created the world "perfect". I do believe Adam and Eve were perfectly made "in His image", probably heartier and stronger, bigger maybe? But if they were created as "perfect beings" then, they would not have sinned. I can see God, giving them free will, with the ability TO sin. And, of course, God knew they would sin. He want's His children to choose to Love Him. It could also be that the Glory of God's love and grace could not be realized unless Adam and Eve did sin. Or, maybe it is a combination?
:)

Hmmm...I think there is no perfection apart from God. But...of Satan it says, you were perfect in your ways from the day you were created until iniquity was found in you. So...by your thoughts, God didn't create the angels perfect either. Because by your thought, if you are capable of sin, you aren't created perfectly.

So then, even before Adam and eve sinned, they were not perfect? So to be created perfect doesn't mean to have no sin but means instead to not be capable of sin? To be created perfect means an inability to sin? So...God has never created a single perfect being then.

But, according to the verse I gave about Satan, a created being can be perfect in his ways, but by your thought, to be without sin is not to be perfect (because to be perfect is to be completely incapable of sin).

And if I take your thought that perfect does not mean without sin but instead means not capable of sin and combine it with your thought that God wanted His creation to choose to love Him, I arrive at this: God created all beings imperfect because He desired them to choose love. So then, there can be no love God wants other than through an imperfectly created being?

There are some problems there for me. But when I go back to my first sentence (and I had to, because I'm in a problem here, lol), I said, I think there is no perfection apart from God. So then, with God is perfection. Seperating from God (as Satan and as Adam did) is to have iniquity found in you. So the only way your way can be perfect is in God, with God.

And I do find this in the NT. In Him is no sin. And Paul's desire was to be found in Him in whom there is no sin. If we abide in Him, we do not sin. If we abide in Him, there is no iniquity found in us. Because He is perfect. And I come to the conclusion that perfection is: to be in Him in whom is no sin. And that's as far as I can take it - and I'm left thinking, then I want to abide in Him! Yet my tent of flesh is condemned (it must die) because of imperfection (sin, iniquity found in it). And even if I am found in Him in whom there is no sin, this is still true of my tent, it must die because it is imperfect.

Have I just made it all worse? Lol.

So then my desire is to be in Him. My question is, I know He is in me, but how do I be in Him??

 

[TheWind]

Adam was the son of God made in the image of God, until he sinned. The first Man is in the image of a sinner, Lucifer. Which was the reason for Christ, who is the true image of God in heaven, who is without sin.

 

[bbyrd009]

I do not see where God created the world "perfect". I do believe Adam and Eve were perfectly made "in His image", probably heartier and stronger, bigger maybe? But if they were created as "perfect beings" then, they would not have sinned. I can see God, giving them free will, with the ability TO sin. And, of course, God knew they would sin. He want's His children to choose to Love Him. It could also be that the Glory of God's love and grace could not be realized unless Adam and Eve did sin. Or, maybe it is a combination?
:)

what is "eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge" iyo?

 

[bbyrd009]

nd, behold, it was very good

funny you underlined that, as it is (perhaps also) a statement made from "the knowledge of good and evil" yeh?

 

[Nancy]

what is "eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge" iyo?

Becoming aware of evil and having their eyes opened to the knowledge of both good and evil. They were warned, they disobeyed so...sin was found in us.
Probably the lame answer you are expecting, lol.

 

[Nancy]

Hmmm...I think there is no perfection apart from God. But...of Satan it says, you were perfect in your ways from the day you were created until iniquity was found in you. So...by your thoughts, God didn't create the angels perfect either. Because by your thought, if you are capable of sin, you aren't created perfectly.

So then, even before Adam and eve sinned, they were not perfect? So to be created perfect doesn't mean to have no sin but means instead to not be capable of sin? To be created perfect means an inability to sin? So...God has never created a single perfect being then.

But, according to the verse I gave about Satan, a created being can be perfect in his ways, but by your thought, to be without sin is not to be perfect (because to be perfect is to be completely incapable of sin).

And if I take your thought that perfect does not mean without sin but instead means not capable of sin and combine it with your thought that God wanted His creation to choose to love Him, I arrive at this: God created all beings imperfect because He desired them to choose love. So then, there can be no love God wants other than through an imperfectly created being?

There are some problems there for me. But when I go back to my first sentence (and I had to, because I'm in a problem here, lol), I said, I think there is no perfection apart from God. So then, with God is perfection. Seperating from God (as Satan and as Adam did) is to have iniquity found in you. So the only way your way can be perfect is in God, with God.

And I do find this in the NT. In Him is no sin. And Paul's desire was to be found in Him in whom there is no sin. If we abide in Him, we do not sin. If we abide in Him, there is no iniquity found in us. Because He is perfect. And I come to the conclusion that perfection is: to be in Him in whom is no sin. And that's as far as I can take it - and I'm left thinking, then I want to abide in Him! Yet my tent of flesh is condemned (it must die) because of imperfection (sin, iniquity found in it). And even if I am found in Him in whom there is no sin, this is still true of my tent, it must die because it is imperfect.

Have I just made it all worse? Lol.

So then my desire is to be in Him. My question is, I know He is in me, but how do I be in Him??

Just did a quick reading Jen, will have to come back to re-read...going to the beach today...YAY. I'll respond this afternoon tho... :)

 

[Nancy]

Just because God knew what he created, meaning God knew because he created Adam with free will he had the capacity of disobedience doesn't mean he knew he would disobey. God is Love so God hopes and trusts His creation. That means God trusted and hoped Adam to be obedient. If God knew they would sin how could God hoped and trusted they would be obedient. People such as you who reason that God knew Adam would sin are Basically saying that God neither trusted or hoped that Adam would be obedient to his command. How can there be love if there is no trust. You honestly believe that God didn't trust Adam?

God is ALL knowing. Do you think He is not?? You give me a vision of the Creator of the universe sitting nervously, biting on His fingernails just hoping and wishing...sorry Barney, you can see things they way you like, no need to get snarky.

 

[bbyrd009]

Becoming aware of evil and having their eyes opened to the knowledge of both good and evil. They were warned, they disobeyed so...sin was found in us.
Probably the lame answer you are expecting, lol.

ah well, that is the natural first approximation imo, nothing wrong with it. But we suppress forest fires and vaccinate against viruses, yeh? So that "becoming aware of evil" and i guess "having our eyes opened to the knowledge" both might be...being misunderstood, yeh, bc suppressing forest fires and vaccinating are forwarded as "good" things to do, right?

um and paying taxes, lets not forget paying taxes too lol

 

[bbyrd009]

try not being aware of evil imo :)

 

[Nancy]

ah well, that is the natural first approximation imo, nothing wrong with it. But we suppress forest fires and vaccinate against viruses, yeh? So that "becoming aware of evil" and i guess "having our eyes opened to the knowledge" both might be...being misunderstood, yeh, bc suppressing forest fires and vaccinating are forwarded as "good" things to do, right?

um and paying taxes, lets not forget paying taxes too lol

Yeah, paying taxes too, lol. Isn't that kind of...backwards? We suppress disease and forest fires...because evil has been leashed upon us (the world), there would be no disease, forest fires...were they to have obeyed.
We would have all died off long ago if we had to live in this world without the knowledge of good and evil. :)

 

[Enoch111]

What I mean is if God knew before he created Adam that he would eat of the forbidden fruit then that means that when God commanded Adam to not eat any of the fruit from the forbidden tree God was commanding him to obey a command that was impossible for Adam to obey.

That is incorrect. It was MORE THAN POSSIBLE for Adam and Eve to obey that commandment.

They had everything they could possibly desire in Eden -- and the best of everything. They even had the fellowship of God in that garden. All it took was to avoid one particular tree in that orchard/garden. And Adam had a responsibility to watch over Eve, which again should have been a pleasure.

If you knew that one tree in your garden had poisonous fruit, you would have it removed, not try and see if that was really true by having one little bite.

 

[amadeus]

funny you underlined that, as it is (perhaps also) a statement made from "the knowledge of good and evil" yeh?

Of course, I have slept since I wrote that but the reason I underlined it may have been to connect it the definitions I added below. That's usually how my mind works now. I am not so certain about a couple of months ago. I notice that I also included a Strong's translation of the word, "perfect" relating to the OP to help @Nancy understand as much any of us can.

A bit more here on Adam and Eve: They were sinless creatures before they disobeyed God, yet they were apparently subject to death. Once they were dead to God, He took action to prevent them from partaking of that other tree in the garden:

"And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life." Gen 3:22-24

Possibly if they had not disobeyed God they would have lived a very long time... but the mention of keeping them from the other tree makes it seem as if their time was still limited. God put a stop to the possibility of having an unlimited amount of time to dwell in death. Isn't this the "death more abundantly" of which you have spoken? For surely when they ate of the forbidden tree of "the knowledge of good and evil" they were in the day of their death? To eat of the Tree of Life would have extended their death that looked to them, and probably now to any carnal man, like life... but it was not, was it?

Prior to their disobedience they were along with all of God's creation called "very good" rather than "perfect". They were sinless, but not perfect, but with the words of Jesus would we not presume that perfection is a possibility?

"Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." Matt 5:48

Jesus would not have directed people toward an impossibility. Before they disobeyed, perhaps by eating of the Tree of Life, Adam and Eve would have moved beyond "very good" to "perfect". Now the Way is open for men to do what Adam and Eve failed to do: attain perfection. According this what would have to do is become first "very good" and then partake of the Tree of Life. Is the "very good" simply without sin as Adam and Eve were in the beginning? Then look to this verse:

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God." Rev 2:7

So then once we presumable have become "very good" by meeting Jesus and losing all of our sins, we then by the Word of God and the Holy Spirit overcome those things which stand between us and God:

"For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world." I John 2:16

Nothing to it! Right?

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

God is ALL knowing. Do you think He is not?? You give me a vision of the Creator of the universe sitting nervously, biting on His fingernails just hoping and wishing...sorry Barney, you can see things they way you like, no need to get snarky.

I never said I didn't believe that God wasn't, " all-knowing". I simply disagree with your arbitrary definition of God's omniscient. Don't get me wrong people have a right to their beliefs, interpretation of scripture, and their definition of words such as omniscient. That however doesn't mean I have to agree with them. I also have the right I believe to tell people why I disagree with their definition of a word such as omniscient. People can say I'm being snarky when I do that all they want but these people who have the definition of omniscient that they do paint God as a person who they say it was God will for his spiritual creature(angel that became Satan) and earthly creature (Adam) to sin. That it was part of God's plan. Sorry, Nancy they can believe that gibberish all they want, and it is gibberish. God has never wanted robots that just obey him cause they have no other choice. These people definition of omniscient are basically saying that God does want robots. If God looked into the future before creating the angel that became Satan and before God created Adam to see if they would be disobedient, since God is infallible that means God made their choice for them. How do I know, cause no one's free will can prove God wrong, if God saw they were to sin before creating them their free will couldn't change that. If their free will could change what God saw before creating them that would mean God isn't infallible and he is infallible.

 

[bbyrd009]

because evil has been leashed upon us

"because evil has been leashed upon us" hmm
consider the implications of that statement inthe context of "tree of knowledge" if you will

 

[bbyrd009]

yet they were apparently subject to death.

literal or spiritual here? ty