Voter ID Laws

[aspen]

Foreigner said,

-- You are again making an unsubstantiated accusation. What I am saying has nothing at all in common with what your parents are saying.
I am not saying WHY they do what they do. I am only pointing out WHAT they do, within the confines that Brother James originally mentioned.
Of course economic status plays a part. So does upbringing, what you are taught as far as right or wrong, drug use, and feelings of entitlement some have based on their current economic status.

Yes, you are claiming that minorities engage in more incidents of shoplifting than 50 year old white males - I am disagreeing with you. The reason I am disagreeing with you is because I live in a city where the majority of people are white and the largest percentage of people in county lock up are white and the largest percent of all race represented in county lock up is white - now I admit, most people are white males between the ages of 18 and 25, rather than 50. I know this because I just finished a class at the county jail, which I had to take in order to visit some of the kids we serve at the ministry I work at the ministry I work at.


-- What exactly don't I understand? Of course shoplifting and other property crimes exist in areas where few minorities live.
Nothing I said even implies anything different. You pulled this accusation out of thin air.

I am glad that you clarified this. If you really believe this to be true, how can you assert that the tiny population of minorities that live in a town like mine, commit a larger percent of the big box shoplifting crime (individually) than the white population? It simply is not true - for one thing, malls in my city are mostly frequented by white people - so is Walmart and Target. When I worked at a store in the mall, years ago, I was told to look for people between the ages of 15 and 30, who were standing by the street doors - they would usually be waiting for a partner to leave items next to them so they could grab them and run. I witnessed numerous thieves in action during the 2 years that I worked as a cashier and I only remember a few cases of latino involvement and no African American people were ever caught. Since then, Meth has been the driving force behind all property theft, including shoplifting.

What I am also pointing out is that in many areas where minorities are minimal, they sometimes still commit those crimes at a level beyond the percentage of their representation for that area. Places in MT and ND, for example. What is so hard to comprehend?

With Meth and prescription drug abuse skyrocketing among whites. yes - very hard to believe. Prescription drug abuse among whites has increased to such a level that the age of death for white males and black males has shrunk to the closest level in American, ever.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2167277/Life-expectancy-disparity-races-reaches-time-low-U-S.html

-- I have absolutely no doubt that what you are saying is true. And not just for your city.

But it isn't drug use that is the primary driver of theft in malls and big-franchise stores.
Most crimes committed by meth users are robbery, assault, theft, and theft by intimidation. Those addicts aren't walking into a Wal-Mart to steal a flat screen TV. They are robbing that TV from the homes of their neighbors or others in their apartment complexes.

All property theft has increased because of Meth and Prescription drug abuse:

http://www5.semo.edu/criminal/medfels/text_meth_cost.htm

http://criminal.lawyers.com/blogs/archives/11315-Shoplifting-and-Prescription-Drug-Use.html


You wish to speak in generalities ("property crime," which includes B and E of homes, apartments, closed businesses, cars, etc), while I am speaking in specifics: Theft from stores such as Wal-Mart and Kmart, as Brother James was SPECIFICALLY mentioning.

"Most retail inventory loss statistics have shown that the majority of shoplifters to be of the Caucasian race.":

http://www.crimedoctor.com/shoplifter-profiling.htm

 

[Brother James]

This discussion is a perfect example of what I am talking about. White and black people do live a different experience. Some may justify that with what ever statistics they like, just as people have always justified things that are uncomfortable.

Just think about what is being said, though. Most shoplifters who are arrested are black? Well, that's not actually true, but even if it was think about it. If the only people store detectives scrutinize are black people, then who is going to be arrested most often? White people have a hard time even thinking about such dynamics. They immediately dismiss any possibility that there is some rational basis for how people of other demographic groups feel. Jesus commanded us to love one another. How can I actually love others if I refuse to even consider life from their point of view? I don't criticize my fellow white people for not even knowing they live in a state of privilege, but I do think it's a problem when they refuse to even listen to or consider the point of view.

Racial bias can blind store personnel and cause them to monitor only the ethic minorities and ignore the real source of inventory losses. Racial profiling eventually leads to a pattern of false theft accusations, wrongful detentions, and harassment when no real probable cause exists. The result is that a particular ethic group will be made to feel like they can't be trusted and are unwelcome in the store. African Americans and Latinos have called it “shopping while black or brown”. And guess what? It's also against the law.

Most retail inventory loss statistics have shown that the majority of shoplifters to be of the Caucasian race. To concentrate surveillance on minority customers is not only improper, but is an ineffective method of controlling shoplifting losses at most locations.

And yes, I'm a right-wing pro-personal responsibility pro-personal liberty conservative Christian who is white. Imagine.

 

[Foreigner]

"Yes, you are claiming that minorities engage in more incidents of shoplifting than 50 year old white males - I am disagreeing with you. The reason I am disagreeing with you is because I live in a city where the majority of people are white and the largest percentage of people in county lock up are white and the largest percent of all race represented in county lock up is white..." - Aspen

-- You are basing your far-reaching claim solely on what you have observed in your city?
One city....in one state....in one region......Not exactly scientific or statistics-based, is it?

And you seem to ignore the fact that all whites in "county lock up" are not there just for crimes committed in a Wal-Mart......which happens to be what we are talking about. Seems like more intentional obfuscation on your part.

Please stick to the specifics. Teenage blacks DO engage in more criminal activities in Wal-Marts nationwide than 56 year old white males.
Yes, that can be different in a part of the country that may be 80 or 90% white. But the overall average nationwide shows I am correct....black teens will commit more crimes than 56 year old white men within WalMarts.

And yes there are some areas where crime committed by black exceeds the percentage of blacks in that area, but it is by no means all.
And overall within malls VARY GREATLY from big-name franchise stores such as WalMart.
And those statistics can vary greatly within the mall itself, from shoe stores to computer outlets to specialty boutiques to sales kiosks, to book stores, to food courts.

You simply CAN'T address specifics that are being discussed by repeatedly refering to generalities or specifics in non-related areas.

You keep dragging Meth into this discussion, but I have already pointed out that it isn't meth users who commit the vast vast vast majority of crimes in WalMarts, or malls.

Meth users do house and apartments robberies, thefts from parked cars, assaults and armed robberies. They do not wander stores like WalMart trying to avoid being caught for shoplifting.
Why? High ticket items such as computers, iPods, iPads, cameras, etc. are the most secure and highly protected/surveillanced.




"Most retail inventory loss statistics have shown that the majority of shoplifters to be of the Caucasian race" - Brother James

-- LOL Ya think? When you look at the U.S. as a whole, with whites making up just over 50% of the population and blacks making up 20%, one would certainly hope so. But there are a number of regions in the U.S. where inventory loss is due more to blacks than to whites.

But you too appear to want to to deflict from the talking points you originally put forth.
The simple fact is that 19 year old black males commit more crime within WalMarts than 56 year old white males.

And your statement that "Racial bias can blind store personnel and cause them to monitor only the ethic minorities and ignore the real source of inventory losses" is ridiculous. At least as far as WalMart goes.

The theft prevention specialists within WalMart are trained to focus on the actual causes of inventory theft and are judged by their effectiveness in reducing inventory theft. If they fail, they lose their jobs and WalMart loses money.

WalMart is all about the bottom line. Targeting minorities based on nothing would not only ensure increased inventory theft, but cause great resentment within the community the store is located in, resulting in boycotts less business being conducted and an even greater profit drop.

Please focus.




.

 

[Strat]

This discussion is a perfect example of what I am talking about. White and black people do live a different experience. Some may justify that with what ever statistics they like, just as people have always justified things that are uncomfortable.

Just think about what is being said, though. Most shoplifters who are arrested are black? Well, that's not actually true, but even if it was think about it. If the only people store detectives scrutinize are black people, then who is going to be arrested most often? White people have a hard time even thinking about such dynamics. They immediately dismiss any possibility that there is some rational basis for how people of other demographic groups feel. Jesus commanded us to love one another. How can I actually love others if I refuse to even consider life from their point of view? I don't criticize my fellow white people for not even knowing they live in a state of privilege, but I do think it's a problem when they refuse to even listen to or consider the point of view.

Racial bias can blind store personnel and cause them to monitor only the ethic minorities and ignore the real source of inventory losses. Racial profiling eventually leads to a pattern of false theft accusations, wrongful detentions, and harassment when no real probable cause exists. The result is that a particular ethic group will be made to feel like they can't be trusted and are unwelcome in the store. African Americans and Latinos have called it “shopping while black or brown”. And guess what? It's also against the law.

Most retail inventory loss statistics have shown that the majority of shoplifters to be of the Caucasian race. To concentrate surveillance on minority customers is not only improper, but is an ineffective method of controlling shoplifting losses at most locations.

And yes, I'm a right-wing pro-personal responsibility pro-personal liberty conservative Christian who is white. Imagine.

Our prisons are not full of shoplifters,they are full of murderers,rapist and other violent criminals along with drug offenders who should not be there because the drug war is a joke and in a nation where we tell people they can do what they like with their own bodies,abortion and Homosexuality come to mind,we hypocritically tell them they can't do themselves in with drugs....but then that is another issue and the destruction of the constitution and the bill of rights via the war on drugs serves too many purposes to ever be given up.

Statistics are information and it is common for people who don't like the information they deliver to dismiss them...the solution to shop lifting in the interest of racial equality is to simply get rid of the store detectives or have them follow people around who are not stealing anything,why stop there,why hot have them arrest the white people anyway so the non whites can feel vindicated....kind of like the TSA searching blue haired old ladies and 5 year olds while letting middle eastern men between the ages of 18 and 35 (statistically most likely to be terrorist) slide right on by...yeah makes tons of PC sense.

The Christian perspective is that all people sin and fall short of the glory of God....no where does the bible offer any excuses for sin based on race,circumstances,culture,wealth,poverty,the past or the present...we are not called to understand hate and a pound of flesh if desired cannot be satisfied with anything but a pound of flesh and that is what many want...strange is it not that some blacks get upset for being stereotyped and judged yet feel free to judge others...where is the judge not crowd on that one ? oh yes i remember...i' should just undertand...if you want to rob and kill me and my family or set my son on fire and scream "that's what you get whitey" like happened recently that the press conveinently forgot to cover while obsessing over Trayvon Martin it's all ok..all any of this does is produce more hatred...injustice breeds rage and the fools we have in charge think the solution to rage is more injustice....how about trying true equality for a change where we do away with the excuses and people become responsable once again.

 

[aspen]

Foreigner said,

"Yes, you are claiming that minorities engage in more incidents of shoplifting than 50 year old white males - I am disagreeing with you. The reason I am disagreeing with you is because I live in a city where the majority of people are white and the largest percentage of people in county lock up are white and the largest percent of all race represented in county lock up is white..." - Aspen

-- You are basing your far-reaching claim solely on what you have observed in your city?
One city....in one state....in one region......Not exactly scientific or statistics-based, is it?

And you seem to ignore the fact that all whites in "county lock up" are not there just for crimes committed in a Wal-Mart......which happens to be what we are talking about. Seems like more intentional obfuscation on your part.

Please stick to the specifics. Teenage blacks DO engage in more criminal activities in Wal-Marts nationwide than 56 year old white males.
Yes, that can be different in a part of the country that may be 80 or 90% white. But the overall average nationwide shows I am correct....black teens will commit more crimes than 56 year old white men within WalMarts.

And yes there are some areas where crime committed by black exceeds the percentage of blacks in that area, but it is by no means all.
And overall within malls VARY GREATLY from big-name franchise stores such as WalMart.
And those statistics can vary greatly within the mall itself, from shoe stores to computer outlets to specialty boutiques to sales kiosks, to book stores, to food courts.

Here's the deal, all I have to do is present one example to prove that your sweeping generalization about minorities is not always true. In this case, I presented my real life experience in my city of 300,00+ people. I also presented more than one source that you ignored in your response.

You simply CAN'T address specifics that are being discussed by repeatedly refering to generalities or specifics in non-related areas.

You keep dragging Meth into this discussion, but I have already pointed out that it isn't meth users who commit the vast vast vast majority of crimes in WalMarts, or malls.

Meth users do house and apartments robberies, thefts from parked cars, assaults and armed robberies. They do not wander stores like WalMart trying to avoid being caught for shoplifting.
Why? High ticket items such as computers, iPods, iPads, cameras, etc. are the most secure and highly protected/surveillanced.

Since when are meth users calculating criminals? You asked for sources - I provided them and you continue to restate your unsupported generalizations. You are correct that county jail is not filled with shoplifters, In fact it is filled with people who have committed more general property crimes.


"Most retail inventory loss statistics have shown that the majority of shoplifters to be of the Caucasian race" - Brother James

-- LOL Ya think? When you look at the U.S. as a whole, with whites making up just over 50% of the population and blacks making up 20%, one would certainly hope so. But there are a number of regions in the U.S. where inventory loss is due more to blacks than to whites.

But you too appear to want to to deflict from the talking points you originally put forth.
The simple fact is that 19 year old black males commit more crime within WalMarts than 56 year old white males.

And your statement that "Racial bias can blind store personnel and cause them to monitor only the ethic minorities and ignore the real source of inventory losses" is ridiculous. At least as far as WalMart goes.

The theft prevention specialists within WalMart are trained to focus on the actual causes of inventory theft and are judged by their effectiveness in reducing inventory theft. If they fail, they lose their jobs and WalMart loses money.

WalMart is all about the bottom line. Targeting minorities based on nothing would not only ensure increased inventory theft, but cause great resentment within the community the store is located in, resulting in boycotts less business being conducted and an even greater profit drop.

Please focus.

All it takes in one example to disprove your generalization. Also, BrotherJames is absolutely correct about minorities being targeted more often in stores than white people.




.

 

[Brother James]

Yet it is against the law to select targets for surveilance based on race. Does the law matter?

When I was a young man I was angry that I had to pay very high insurance premiums even though I did not get tickets or have accidents. Other young men did those things. I had to pay even though I did nothing wrong. It seemed injust. it made me angry. I was being punished for the wrongs of others. Now, we might all understand why insurance premiums are set the way they are. We might agree that it's the correct way to do it (mainly because it makes our premiums lower). But can we at least understand why a young person (let's leave race out of it for a minute) might be angry at being disadvantaged by their age when they have done nothing wrong? Or do you think their anger is unreasonable or irrational? It is reasonable to expect a 20 year old to have maturity of insight that a 50 year old has?

 

[Strat]

Yet it is against the law to select targets for surveilance based on race. Does the law matter?

When I was a young man I was angry that I had to pay very high insurance premiums even though I did not get tickets or have accidents. Other young men did those things. I had to pay even though I did nothing wrong. It seemed injust. it made me angry. I was being punished for the wrongs of others. Now, we might all understand why insurance premiums are set the way they are. We might agree that it's the correct way to do it (mainly because it makes our premiums lower). But can we at least understand why a young person (let's leave race out of it for a minute) might be angry at being disadvantaged by their age when they have done nothing wrong? Or do you think their anger is unreasonable or irrational? It is reasonable to expect a 20 year old to have maturity of insight that a 50 year old has?

Insurance premiums are they way they are because Insurance is a racket,it makes no sense to penalize one person for the behaviour of another,an insurance company signs a policy with an individual and instead of accepting the risk and possible cost they pass it on to others who had nothing to do with it,all in true socialist style i guess...the angry 20 year old just needs to deal with it in a responsable way or be prepared to face the consequences...be they jail or death....they do not have the right to victimize other people just because they are angry....your bad day or bad life is your problem not mine.....and you will find nothing in the bible that supports hatred or anger driven violence in any way...our society has fallen to a new low when we don't even expect 20 year olds to know right from wrong.

 

[Foreigner]

Meanwhile, back to the actual topic at hand:

I remember this because I was living in MN at the time. Al Franken became our Senator via voter fraud.

http://townhall.com/columnists/byronyork/2012/08/13/when_1099_felons_vote_in_a_race_won_by_312_ballots/page/full/

When 1,099 Felons Vote In A Race Won By 312 Ballots


In the eyes of the Obama administration, most Democratic lawmakers and left-leaning editorial pages across the country, voter fraud is a problem that doesn't exist. Allegations of fraud, they say, are little more than pretexts conjured up by Republicans to justify voter ID laws designed to suppress Democratic turnout.
That argument becomes much harder to make after reading a discussion of the 2008 Minnesota Senate race in "Who's Counting?", a new book by conservative journalist John Fund and former Bush Justice Department official Hans von Spakovsky. Although the authors cover the whole range of voter fraud issues, their chapter on Minnesota is enough to convince any skeptic that there are times when voter fraud not only exists but can be critical to the outcome of an important race.
In the '08 campaign, Republican Sen. Norm Coleman was running for re-election against Democrat Al Franken. It was impossibly close; on the morning after the election, after 2.9 million people had voted, Coleman led Franken by 725 votes.
Franken and his Democratic allies dispatched an army of lawyers to challenge the results. After the first canvass, Coleman's lead was down to 206 votes. That was followed by months of wrangling and litigation. In the end, Franken was declared the winner by 312 votes. He was sworn into office in July 2009, eight months after the election.
During the controversy, a conservative group called Minnesota Majority began to look into claims of voter fraud. Comparing criminal records with voting rolls, the group identified 1,099 felons -- all ineligible to vote -- who had voted in the Franken-Coleman race.
Minnesota Majority took the information to prosecutors across the state, many of whom showed no interest in pursuing it. But Minnesota law requires authorities to investigate such leads. And so far, Fund and von Spakovsky report, 177 people have been convicted -- not just accused, but convicted -- of voting fraudulently in the Senate race. Another 66 are awaiting trial. "The numbers aren't greater," the authors say, "because the standard for convicting someone of voter fraud in Minnesota is that they must have been both ineligible, and 'knowingly' voted unlawfully." The accused can get off by claiming not to have known they did anything wrong.
Still, that's a total of 243 people either convicted of voter fraud or awaiting trial in an election that was decided by 312 votes. With 1,099 examples identified by Minnesota Majority, and with evidence suggesting that felons, when they do vote, strongly favor Democrats, it doesn't require a leap to suggest there might one day be proof that Al Franken was elected on the strength of voter fraud.
And that's just the question of voting by felons. Minnesota Majority also found all sorts of other irregularities that cast further doubt on the Senate results.
The election was particularly important because Franken's victory gave Senate Democrats a 60th vote in favor of President Obama's national health care proposal -- the deciding vote to overcome a Republican filibuster. If Coleman had kept his seat, there would have been no 60th vote, and no Obamacare.
Voter fraud matters when contests are close. When an election is decided by a huge margin, no one can plausibly claim fraud made the difference. But the Minnesota race was excruciatingly close. And then, in the Obamacare debate, Democrats could not afford to lose even a single vote. So if there were any case that demonstrates that voter fraud both exists and has real consequences, it is Minnesota 2008.
Yet Democrats across the country continue to downplay the importance of the issue. Last year, Rep. Debbie Wasserman Schultz, chairman of the Democratic National Committee, denounced "the gauzy accusation that voter fraud is somehow a problem, when over and over again it has been proven that you're more likely to get hit by lightning than you are to (be) a victim of voter fraud."

Wasserman Schultz and her fellow Democrats are doing everything they can to stop reasonable anti-fraud measures, like removing ineligible voters from the rolls and voter ID. Through it all, they maintain they are simply defending our most fundamental right, the right to vote.
But voter fraud involves that right, too. "When voters are disenfranchised by the counting of improperly cast ballots or outright fraud, their civil rights are violated just as surely as if they were prevented from voting," write Fund and von Spakovsky. "The integrity of the ballot box is just as important to the credibility of elections as access to it."

 

[aspen]

If you think white people do not enjoy privilege - go visit Hawaii and watch how you are treated. White privilege does not exist in Hawaii and it can feel like racism.

 

[Foreigner]

11 trips to Hawaii between 1986 and 2011 (I have family living there)

Two trips of more than a month
Two trips of more than two weeks
The rest no less than five days

Stayed at beachfront hotels, a Motel 6, a Days Inn, and in private homes.

Never once experienced racism or the feeling of racism.

Try again.

 

[Strat]

Meanwhile, back to the actual topic at hand:

I remember this because I was living in MN at the time. Al Franken became our Senator via voter fraud.

http://townhall.com/...lots/page/full/

When 1,099 Felons Vote In A Race Won By 312 Ballots


In the eyes of the Obama administration, most Democratic lawmakers and left-leaning editorial pages across the country, voter fraud is a problem that doesn't exist. Allegations of fraud, they say, are little more than pretexts conjured up by Republicans to justify voter ID laws designed to suppress Democratic turnout.
That argument becomes much harder to make after reading a discussion of the 2008 Minnesota Senate race in "Who's Counting?", a new book by conservative journalist John Fund and former Bush Justice Department official Hans von Spakovsky. Although the authors cover the whole range of voter fraud issues, their chapter on Minnesota is enough to convince any skeptic that there are times when voter fraud not only exists but can be critical to the outcome of an important race.
In the '08 campaign, Republican Sen. Norm Coleman was running for re-election against Democrat Al Franken. It was impossibly close; on the morning after the election, after 2.9 million people had voted, Coleman led Franken by 725 votes.
Franken and his Democratic allies dispatched an army of lawyers to challenge the results. After the first canvass, Coleman's lead was down to 206 votes. That was followed by months of wrangling and litigation. In the end, Franken was declared the winner by 312 votes. He was sworn into office in July 2009, eight months after the election.
During the controversy, a conservative group called Minnesota Majority began to look into claims of voter fraud. Comparing criminal records with voting rolls, the group identified 1,099 felons -- all ineligible to vote -- who had voted in the Franken-Coleman race.
Minnesota Majority took the information to prosecutors across the state, many of whom showed no interest in pursuing it. But Minnesota law requires authorities to investigate such leads. And so far, Fund and von Spakovsky report, 177 people have been convicted -- not just accused, but convicted -- of voting fraudulently in the Senate race. Another 66 are awaiting trial. "The numbers aren't greater," the authors say, "because the standard for convicting someone of voter fraud in Minnesota is that they must have been both ineligible, and 'knowingly' voted unlawfully." The accused can get off by claiming not to have known they did anything wrong.
Still, that's a total of 243 people either convicted of voter fraud or awaiting trial in an election that was decided by 312 votes. With 1,099 examples identified by Minnesota Majority, and with evidence suggesting that felons, when they do vote, strongly favor Democrats, it doesn't require a leap to suggest there might one day be proof that Al Franken was elected on the strength of voter fraud.
And that's just the question of voting by felons. Minnesota Majority also found all sorts of other irregularities that cast further doubt on the Senate results.
The election was particularly important because Franken's victory gave Senate Democrats a 60th vote in favor of President Obama's national health care proposal -- the deciding vote to overcome a Republican filibuster. If Coleman had kept his seat, there would have been no 60th vote, and no Obamacare.
Voter fraud matters when contests are close. When an election is decided by a huge margin, no one can plausibly claim fraud made the difference. But the Minnesota race was excruciatingly close. And then, in the Obamacare debate, Democrats could not afford to lose even a single vote. So if there were any case that demonstrates that voter fraud both exists and has real consequences, it is Minnesota 2008.
Yet Democrats across the country continue to downplay the importance of the issue. Last year, Rep. Debbie Wasserman Schultz, chairman of the Democratic National Committee, denounced "the gauzy accusation that voter fraud is somehow a problem, when over and over again it has been proven that you're more likely to get hit by lightning than you are to (be) a victim of voter fraud."

Wasserman Schultz and her fellow Democrats are doing everything they can to stop reasonable anti-fraud measures, like removing ineligible voters from the rolls and voter ID. Through it all, they maintain they are simply defending our most fundamental right, the right to vote.
But voter fraud involves that right, too. "When voters are disenfranchised by the counting of improperly cast ballots or outright fraud, their civil rights are violated just as surely as if they were prevented from voting," write Fund and von Spakovsky. "The integrity of the ballot box is just as important to the credibility of elections as access to it."

Race is very much a part of the whole issue since we are going down the well worn path of people being able to vote money out of other people's pockets...as you can see some think they are entitled to it and a legal process of voting gets in the way.

 

[Foreigner]

Strat, I must confess I have absolutely what specific point you are trying to make.

 

[Strat]

Strat, I must confess I have absolutely what specific point you are trying to make.

Its simple,the left does not want to enforce voting laws because they pander to minorities and illegal immigrants and depend on their votes,that is the race part of it,and government has become the means by which one can steal money from another with their vote....pretty simple.....what has the debate been about so far ? jobs,fiscal responsability or responsability of any kind ? no...it has been about about freebies,entitlements and hand outs,its as if people no longer make the connection between work and industry and resources from which to pay for the growing list of things they think they are entitled to....the leap has been made from the moral failing of expecting something for nothing to the insanity of expecting something from nothing.

 

[aspen]

It is simple - the left is satan's plan for humanity; the right is God's plan.

 

[Foreigner]

It is simple - the left is satan's plan for humanity; the right is God's plan.

I understand you meant that as a snide comment, but there is much more truth to that statement than you seem to realize.

Abortion is a good example. The left supports abortion up through and including delivering the baby three-quarters of the way out of the body before killing it (otherwise known as infanticide). I would say that falls under "Satan's plan for humanity."

You yourself support and work for Gay Marraige, something you yourself admit is an abomination in God's eyes.
You know that it will increase the likelihood of those participating going to hell, yet you champion it.
Again, I would argue that that falls under "Satan's plan for humanity."


There was more insight into your comment than you know.

 

[Foreigner]

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2012/09/02/3497857/group-says-it-found-30000-dead.html

Group says it found 30,000 dead North Carolinians registered to vote
Voter Integrity Project has no evidence of any ballots cast in their names.
By Kelly Poe

Modified: Sunday, Sep. 02, 2012 RALEIGH A Raleigh-based group devoted to reducing the potential for voter fraud presented the N.C. Board of Elections on Friday with a list of nearly 30,000 names of dead people statewide who are still registered to vote.
The Voter Integrity Project compiled the list after obtaining death records from the state Department of Public Health from 2002 to March 31 and comparing them to the voter rolls.
“Mainly, what we’re concerned about is the potential [for fraud],” said project director Jay DeLancy. “Since there is no voter ID law in North Carolina, anybody can walk in and claim to be anyone else.”
DeLancy said his group has found evidence to suggest voter fraud in these numbers, but will not quantify how much until he is able to do more analysis. Most cases of what look like a dead person voting are likely just administrative errors, such as a son named Junior voting in his father’s name instead of his own.
The rolls of registered voters are updated every month when the state Department of Health and Human Services gives a list of all death certificates received that month to the state Board of Elections.
Problems arise when the names on the death certificates do not match the names on the voting records, which often happens after women get married, Board of Elections General Counsel Don Wright said Friday. Addresses are also often listed with slight differences, Wright said. An address on West Millbrook Road and Millbrook Road might be the same house, but computers won’t always catch it. “Unless there is an exact match, we do not remove people from the voter rolls,” Wright said.
DeLancy said his volunteers work to fix the discrepancies, by examining cases of similar names and addresses and confirming other pieces of data, such as whether the voter has the same date of birth.
Wright said the elections board will investigate the names provided by the Voter Integrity Project and take appropriate action. The state board can remove voters from the rolls for inactivity if they haven’t voted in two consecutive elections, which cleans up most problems over time, Wright said.
In 2009, 261 cases of voter fraud were sent to local district attorney’s offices in the state, the majority of which concluded investigations from the 2008 election, according to a report by the state Board of Elections. Of those cases, 229 involved convicted felons voting. The board did not investigate anyone for fraud in the May primaries, Wright said.
DeLancy says his group’s list of dead registered voters would have been larger had it included records from Virginia and South Carolina, which together account for 55 percent of all North Carolinians’ out-of-state deaths, he said. Although most states allow the release of death certificates for voter registration accuracy, Virginia and South Carolina do not, DeLancy said.
“We said, ‘Are you kidding? This is 2012.’ ” DeLancy said. “We want Virginia and South Carolina to fix that loophole in the law.”
The Voter Integrity Project describes itself as a nonpartisan group aimed at clean, fair elections. It supports requiring photo ID to vote, which Republicans typically support and Democrats typically oppose.
Earlier this summer, the organization sued to have 528 Wake County residents it claimed were not U.S. citizens removed from the voter registration. The county elections board investigated the complaint and found that all of the voters were citizens and eligible to vote.
Copyright 2012 The News and Observer. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.

 

[Brother James]

As they say in Chicago, vote early, vote often!

The way dead voters fall off the rolls in most places is that after a certain amount of time passes without them voting, they simply fall off through that process. There is no coordination between the issuing of death certificates and searching for what jurisdiction that person is registered to vote in. A snow bird dies in Florida in January. There's really no mechanism for the county in Ohio where he lives most of the year to know he's dead. But actually, I'm more concerned about the non-citizens who vote.

 

[revturmoil]

OH HOW MISLED REPUBLICAN'S CAN BE!

Abortion is a good example. The left supports abortion up through and including delivering the baby three-quarters of the way out of the body before killing it (otherwise known as infanticide). I would say that falls under "Satan's plan for humanity."

Republicanism isn't the party of God. And...You've been fooled!

The last time the Supreme Court voted on abortion, 3 of the 5 republican justices voted in favor to uphold abortion!

All I am saying is that overall, Republicans benefit from this law and Democrats lose.

That's true. The republican's like re-districting for the same reasons! I think it's Texas (a state that I can do without!) that republican's want to charge a voter fee of 25$ to vote and where the republicans do a lot of re-districting.

 

[Foreigner]

OH HOW MISLED REPUBLICAN'S CAN BE!



Republicanism isn't the party of God. And...You've been fooled!

The last time the Supreme Court voted on abortion, 3 of the 5 republican justices voted in favor to uphold abortion!


-- lol Ease up on the drama. No one said the Republican part is the party of God.
You scream "You've been fooled!" when no one was voicing that opinion you are preaching (judging) about.
And the Supreme Court has never voted on Partial-Birth abortion. Just Roe vs. Wade, which had nothing to do with that procedure.


That's true. The republican's like re-districting for the same reasons! I think it's Texas (a state that I can do without!) that republican's want to charge a voter fee of 25$ to vote and where the republicans do a lot of re-districting.


-- Hate to break it to you, but Democrats are also HUGE fans of rediscricting. Especially in GA, IL, OH, TX, VA, NC and CA.
As far as "republicans want to charge a voter fee of $25.00 to vote" you already know that is a lie so there is no need for further comment on that.





Now I hate to break the trend and comment on the actual thread, but the Supreme Court has already ruled that Voter ID laws are NOT Unconstitutional.

Uber-Liberal Justice Stevens himself said that the voter ID was Constitutional:

http://www.nytimes.c...n/29scotus.html

"But Justice Stevens said that neither was there “any concrete evidence of the burden imposed on voters who now lack photo identification.” The “risk of voter fraud” was “real,” he said, and there was “no question about the legitimacy or importance of the state’s interest in counting only the votes of eligible voters.”





.

 

[Foreigner]

-- Pennsylvania went for Mr. Obama in 2008 and looks like they will go for him again, yet more than 50 percent of Democrats in the state support the law.



[font=Arial']Poll Finds Strong Support for New Pennsylvania Voter ID Law[/font]



[font=Arial']A recent poll by the Inquirer Pennsylvania regarding the state's controversial voter ID law shows that nearly two-thirds of likely voters support requiring those who show up to vote to produce a government issued photo. [/font]

[font=Arial']But perhaps the most revealing data from the poll is the deep division between the major political parties on the issue. For example, 85 percent of Republicans polled support the law versus only 51 percent of Democrats surveyed.[/font]

[font=Arial']Broken down between races, 69 percent of white voters support the measure while only 31 percent of black voters think producing a photo ID is a good idea.[/font]

[font=Arial']According to the Inquirer, "94 percent said it would not be difficult for them to obtain the necessary ID to vote. Three percent reported it would be 'somewhat difficult,' 2 percent 'very difficult,' and 1 percent said they did not know or declined to answer."[/font]

[font=Arial']However the issue raised by liberals is not the difficulty in obtaining a valid ID, but the issue that such laws are a throwback to Jim Crow laws of the early twentieth century that were enacted to discourage blacks and other minorities from voting.[/font]

[font=Arial']In mid-August a Pennsylvania judge ruled that the new law requiring a photo ID is legal and can be in effect for November's presidential election. Similar laws have been challenged by the Justice Department, and Attorney General Eric Holder has said his attorneys are committed to fighting the laws in every state where they believe a legal chance exist to overturn them.[/font]

[font=Arial']The ruling has been appealed and this coming Thursday the Pennsylvania Supreme Court will hear arguments on the legality of the law.[/font]

[font=Arial']For the Obama campaign's part, it has worked to minimize the effect of the new requirement if it indeed is upheld at the state's Supreme Court. Volunteers making calls in Pennsylvania have been instructed to ask those they call or encounter at doorsteps if they need any assistance in obtaining a valid ID.[/font]

[font=Arial']According to volunteer Elisabeth Sims, she hasn't encountered many problems.[/font]
[font=Arial']"In my phone calls, I haven't had one person who's said that they didn't have ID, and I've made hundreds of calls," Sims told Real Clear Politics.[/font]

[font=Arial']The latest Pennsylvania poll also conducted by the Inquirer shows Obama with a 50-39 percent lead over GOP challenger Mitt Romney.[/font]




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