Understanding what is the "Abomination of Desolation".

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tailgator

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Luke 21:20 identifies the abomination of desolation as the Roman armies. So the armed forces must be Roman armies.
Luke 21 isn't about the past.
There were no signs in the heavens and the romans did not shake the heavens.Jesus didn't come in 70 AD and redeem his elect in 70 AD.You are mistaken.



Luke 21

25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
 

covenantee

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Who was compassed by armies, and then the temple destroyed? Have you even read the Old Testament prophesies concerning the compassing with armies? It might interest you comparing scripture with scripture or do you simply rely on Josephus's record of who?

Luk 21:20-21
(20) And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
(21) Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

When the believers see their city, Jersualem, the people of God and their Holy Place on this side of the Cross, the CHURCHES, under attack by Satan's ministers of unrighteousness (False prophets and Christs PER CONTEXT), then we know God has brought judgment against the apostate church, as we are to flee to the safety of the Mountain of God.

"But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. (Luk 21:20)

The desolation of Jerusalem is caused foremost by the wickedness of the city - that is, those that are not Christ's but feign to be Christ's are part of that external Church that has come into judgment. The elect is part of the Church too, but they are not deceived nor are they under God's wrath - and as such they must remove themselves out of the city, yet remain citizens of Jerusalem. They are to flee the city because it is to become a wasteland - a place of the habitation of all things unclean, the abomination that makes desolate will rule over it.

The language of Jerusalem as the people of God is used later to describe the bride of Christ, made perfect and dwelling with Christ eternally. This comes after the destruction of this present world, but the important information is that Jerusalem represents the people of God and the armies that surrounded the city to overthrow it are the people of Satan. Not Roman attacking physical city Jersualem.

And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. (Rev 21:2)

As I explained on my previous posts, they are all related to the apostasy in the church and its dire results. Apostasy comes from kingdom rising against kingdom, there is famine, persecution, betrayal, hatred, etc., as in those signs. Indeed apostasy "is" Jerusalem compassed with armies. Not physically, but spiritually just as it was revealed in the time of Christ when He fulfilled prophesy of this. It all depends upon how we define God's Word, either by God's Word or by hypothesis and supposition. The New Testament Jerusalem "IS" the church. Not Jersualem in the Middle East like you believe. What armies would encamp against her and surround her but those soldiers spiritually of Satan, just as they did at Christ's first advent (Zec 9:8-9). There were no literal/physical battles in Jerusalem then, no literal armies then, and there are no literal/physical battles or armies against the Lord's house in the last days. It is spiritual warfare. e.g.:

Revelation 20:8-9
  • "And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
  • And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them."
The beloved city is spiritual Jerusalem, the church. Not your physical city Jerusalem. The nations from all over the Earth did not come down to Jersualem in 70AD. No. The churches all over the world are the encampment of the saints. It "IS" where the battle truly takes place. The fight against abomination standing in the holy place. It is happening right now. Not future, or in 70AD. Again, it all depends upon how we define God's word, either "by" God's word or by presumption in looking at physical nations, battles, famines and warfare, and history based on the writing of a heathen.
Apparently you've never heard of "sarc". :laughing:
 

covenantee

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Luke 21 isn't about the past.
There were no signs in the heavens and the romans did not shake the heavens.Jesus didn't come in 70 AD and redeem his elect in 70 AD.You are mistaken.



Luke 21

25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;

26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
You claim that the abomination of desolation is future.

Luke identifies the abomination of desolation as the Roman armies.

So if you're going to be consistent with Scripture and with your own hermeneutic, then you have to believe that Luke is referring to future Roman armies.

Not to your imaginary nuke.

Do you believe Luke?
 

tailgator

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You claim that the abomination of desolation is future.

Luke identifies the abomination of desolation as the Roman armies.

So if you're going to be consistent with Scripture and with your own hermeneutic, then you have to believe that Luke is referring to future Roman armies.

Not to your imaginary nuke.

Do you believe Luke?

Luke does not identify the man of sins armed forces as Romans.Luke 21 says nothing about Romans.You are simply interpreting Luke 21 as having already been fulfilled when the romams never shook the heavens and Christ did not come and raised the dead.


What makes you think the great tribulation and resurection took place in 70 AD when no one in history said the dead were raised in 70 AD?
 

tailgator

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You claim that the abomination of desolation is future.

Luke identifies the abomination of desolation as the Roman armies.

So if you're going to be consistent with Scripture and with your own hermeneutic, then you have to believe that Luke is referring to future Roman armies.

Not to your imaginary nuke.

Do you believe Luke?
Luke does not mention the word Romans.No sign of Romans anywhere in this verse.

20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
 

covenantee

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Luke does not identify the man of sins armed forces as Romans.Luke 21 says nothing about Romans.You are simply interpreting Luke 21 as having already been fulfilled when the romams never shook the heavens and Christ did not come and raised the dead.


What makes you think the great tribulation and resurection took place in 70 AD when no one in history said the dead were raised in 70 AD?
Luke 21
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

OK, so he identifies it as armies.

Not as a nuke.
 
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tailgator

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Luke 21
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

OK, so he identifies it as armies.

Not as a nuke.
Luke does not mention the words abomination of desolation.
Daniel does.

Daniel 11
His armed forces will rise up to desecrate the temple fortress and will abolish the daily sacrifice. Then they will set up the abomination that causes desolation.


The man of sins armed forces set up the abomination that causes desolation .
 

covenantee

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Luke does not mention the words abomination of desolation.
Daniel does.

Daniel 11
His armed forces will rise up to desecrate the temple fortress and will abolish the daily sacrifice. Then they will set up the abomination that causes desolation.


The man of sins armed forces set up the abomination that causes desolation .
The Holy Spirit inspired Luke 21:20 to be the interpretive synoptic counterpart to assist in the interpretation of Matthew 24:15.

No mention of a nuke.
 
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tailgator

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The Holy Spirit inspired Luke 21:20 to be the interpretive synoptic counterpart to assist in the interpretation of Matthew 24:15.

No mention of a nuke.
No mention of Romans.But Luke did mention the fearful sights in the heavens and the earthquake that accompanies kingdom rising against kingfom.Things that you don't believe in.

Luke 21

9 But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by.

10 Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:

11 And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.


Then again,you believe the end was in 70 AD.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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Luke 21 isn't about the past.
Some of it certainly is.

Luke 21:5 And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said, 6 As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. 7 And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?

Jesus said the temple standing at that time would be destroyed. Is that temple still there? Obviously not. So, Luke 21:5-6 is clearly about the past and the disciples asked Jesus when that would happen. So, where do you think His answer to that question can be found in Luke 21?
 
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tailgator

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Some of it certainly is.

Luke 21:5 And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said, 6 As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. 7 And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?

Jesus said the temple standing at that time would be destroyed. Is that temple still there? Obviously not. So, Luke 21:5-6 is clearly about the past and the disciples asked Jesus when that would happen. So, where do you think His answer to that question can be found in Luke 21?
There are still stones upon other stones from 2000 years ago.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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There are still stones upon other stones from 2000 years ago.
LOL. Not of the temple buildings, which is what we're talking about here. It's ludicrous to deny that the destruction of the temple long ago has nothing to do with what Jesus prophesied. Absolutely ridiculous. Even the ultrahyperfuturist Douggg acknowledges that the temple being destroyed in 70 AD fulfilled Jesus's prophecy about that. Of course, the Olivet Discourse is about more than just that, but to claim that it's not about that at all makes no sense whatsoever.
 

Eternally Grateful

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I think we can all agree that the Temple, the city and everything was completely destroyed between 606 and 587 BC by the Babylonians. But God promised to restore His people and His city after the 70 years of punishment in exile. So, the first Temple and everything in Israel was destroyed or taken away - indicating the AOD is not related to the physical destruction of the second Temple, the city, the walls and the streets, etc., The AOD is on a wholly different level of transgression. This is not repeat of something that took place during man's history or the history of the Jews from Abraham to the coming Messiah. This would be a one time HUGE event.
I agree
God would have Gabriel give Daniel the 70 weeks of years prophecy in Chapter 9, which covered the His complete plan of restoration for the Jews AND all of mankind. It would begin exactly in 457 BC, and end exactly 490 years later - it would end 3.5 years after the cross.
Here is where we break off.

The cross occured literally the week the 69th week ended. If it was a continuation, it would have been the begining of the 70th week. not in the middle
The 70 weeks were broken into 3 separate timed sections of 7, 62 and 1 week. Within the verses 9:24-27, Gabriel will provide Daniel with the external and internal time borders and boundaries of this unique and special prophecy.
Again agree
The external time border where everything will take place in for a period of 490 literal years or 70 weeks of years. Gabriel also divides these 4 verses into 2 different sections: Verses 24-25 are both "restorative" verses, while 25-26 are "destructive" verses. In the "restorative" verses, Gabriel reveals the physical elements that must be completely restored. This would be the city, Temple, walls and streets, etc., These restorative elements along with the restoration of the Levitical ceremonies, the holy feast days, the sacrifices and offerings as well as the Sabbatical cycles (all of them), would also have to be restored. These elements would be restored by the Jews - this was their obligations. The second part of the "restorative" verses speak to the "spiritual" elements that must be restored or fulfilled. They are found in 9:24 and they can ONLY be fulfilled / completed by the Messiah. These represent His God given obligations / mission during His ministry.
the restorative done by the jew, happened in the first section, or the first 7 weeks of years.
I can see that the things in verse 24 can only be brought about by Jesus, But the reality is, these things will be fulfilled. if they have not been fulfilled. then we can determin one of 2 things.

1. The prophecy is in error (many jews believe this, in fact they reject the book of daniel as part of the OT)
2. That the 70 weeks are not yet complete (my view)

Also. Jesus did not complete these in his ministry, the prophecy concerns the nation of Israel and the city and temple.. Non of these things to this day have been fulfilled.
If you look within these verses, you will find that Gabriel will identify the time and obligations of both parties that MUST be fulfilled during their timed section. The Jews will complete their mission in the first 7 weeks or the first 49 years, while the Messiah will complete all of His obligations during the last week in the prophecy - the one week that ends the 70 weeks. The Messiah will arrive at the Jordan on the first day of the 70th week (after the 7 and 62 weeks have been completed), and He will fulfill 9:24 (and more) before He returns to heaven.
But the timeline does not fit.

Messiah the prince is introduced to Jerusalem as its messiah in fulfilment of the prophecy. when he entered Jerusalem on a donkey. This was the last week of the 69th week of years.. The first day of the 70th week would have been the day after this.

But as the prophet said. THEN the messiah will be cut off (literally killed) which was last fulfilled. in that this same week messiah was hung on a cross.
This is one reason why there is no gap within the 70 weeks prophecy -
But it is has many flaws. and would not convince me their is no gap.
the last week had been "set aside" specifically for the arrival of the Messiah. He could not arrive until all of the elements in His plan of restoration BY THE JEWS, was completed. If you look at the elements of the restoration itself, every item that had to be restored that was destoryed or taken away by the Babylonians was indeed restored in the reverse order they were taken or destroyed. This is purposeful! The very first piece of furniture that was taken away was the Ark of the Covenant by Jeremiah, just prior to the first arrival of the Babylonians. God would not allow them to take the Ark... however, this was indeed prophetic and purposeful because it would be the very last piece of furniture to be restored in the Temple in the form of the coming Messiah. He would be the only one capable of restoring the presence of God in the Sanctuary. Again, this was all to take place within His ministry which covered the final 7 years of the 70 weeks of years prophecy. Jesus would indeed fulfill all 6 of His God given missions identified in 9:24 and would soon return to His Father in heaven.
But it is not fulfilled
1. Israel is still in sin
2. Since she is still in sin, She has not completed her transgressions nor has she made an end of her sins. which means at least 2 of the things which will be completed at the end of the 70th week have not yet happened.
3. as far as the next three, We have alot of prophecy yet to be fulfilled. so it has not yet been sealed up. let alone, has everlasting righteousness been completed. Have you looked at the news lately? Do you walk out of your house and see all the sin in the world. If you think this is the righteous kingdom God promised. Ouch!! God must not be that great if a God.
But the AOD, or the "abominable" act that would cause "desolation" can only be one event in the history of mankind. It is the Jews rejection and crucifixion of their Messiah exactly 3.5 years into His ministry or 3.5 years into the last 7 years (last week) of the 70 weeks of years prophecy.
this is impossible for a few reaons.

1. The jews did nto crucify him, they had no authority. the Romans did (if we really want to get technical. every one of us did, because he died for our sins)
2. An abomination of desolation is an idol or inclean thing in the holy place. Jesus is not an unclean thing, nor is he a pagan idol..

that is why I preach over and over we need to get the defenition of what it is right. If we do this, we would not have so many mistakes.
As a result of their rejection and crucifixion of their Messiah, God would completely turn away from His people. He would become "desolate" to them and they would have no access to Him for the entire time known as the Time of the Gentiles. He would be made "desolate" to them for over 2000 years.
But they do have access to him, I know many jews who have been saved and are God fearing God walking children of God

But the nation is still in sin.

God promised them the destruction in lev 26, he told them this would happen if they turn from him, so it should have been no suprise to them

but he also promised them he would restore them if they repent, stop their transgressions and sins, and turn to him.

Well this is what the prophets say will happen. and guess what, when it does, We know when, the end of the 70th week..
 

covenantee

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No mention of Romans.But Luke did mention the fearful sights in the heavens and the earthquake that accompanies kingdom rising against kingfom.Things that you don't believe in.

Luke 21

9 But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by.

10 Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:

11 And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.


Then again,you believe the end was in 70 AD.
Matthew 24
1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

Simple question.

Who are "them" and "ye" and "you" in Matthew 24:2?
 

Spiritual Israelite

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I can see that the things in verse 24 can only be brought about by Jesus, But the reality is, these things will be fulfilled. if they have not been fulfilled. then we can determin one of 2 things.

1. The prophecy is in error (many jews believe this, in fact they reject the book of daniel as part of the OT)
2. That the 70 weeks are not yet complete (my view)

Also. Jesus did not complete these in his ministry, the prophecy concerns the nation of Israel and the city and temple.. Non of these things to this day have been fulfilled.
Why did you not mention that the prophecy concerns "Messiah the Prince" as well? He is mentioned in the prophecy, but the prophecy doesn't concern Him?

One of the six things listed in Daniel 9:24 that was to be fulfilled within the 70 weeks was "to make reconciliation for iniquity". How can you say Jesus did not complete that? How else can reconciliation for iniquity be made apart from the shed blood of Christ? It can't! He most certainly did fulfill that and all of the other things listed relate to that.

Romans 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

2 Corinthians 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Ephesians 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

Colossians 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. 21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled.

Hebrews 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. 16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. 17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
 

tailgator

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Matthew 24
1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

Simple question.

Who are "them" and "ye" and "you" in Matthew 24:2?
He was talking to them about the stones.There are plenty of stones still standing.
 

covenantee

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He was talking to them about the stones.There are plenty of stones still standing.
Yes, "them" and "ye" and "you" in Matthew 24:2 are Jesus' disciples.

Matthew 24
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

What about Matthew 24:15? Are "ye" still Jesus' disciples in that verse?
 
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MA2444

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I think many of you misunderstood what Christ talked about here. The key is "many shall come in my name, saying I am Christ, and shall deceive many." This is WHERE the wars and rumours of wars take place which is the CHURCH! Where the false prophets and christs are! Not wars between Russia and Ukraine or Iran and Israel.

Mat 24:4-8
  • And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
  • For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
  • And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
  • For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
  • All these are the beginning of sorrows.
We need to understand them in the same spiritual sense that God tells us is our warfare, and since interpretations belong to God, and context is important, we understand it in the light of God's word. The Church for the past 2,000 has always been in wars and there have always been reports of wars. But our warfare in Scripture is spiritual rather than carnal or "of the flesh" as the world's wars are. Israel's physical wars were to give us a deeper Spiritual picture of Spiritual warfare. Near the second coming, these wars that the Christians know of will be greater than ever. Again note that the context of Matthew chapter 24, Mark 13, etc., of the reports of wars and earthquakes, is regarding the persecution of the church and not the disposition of the world at large. The warfare is against us, not political nations. The warfare is spiritual and so the battles against the wicked is spiritual rather than political, and the weapons the worldwide church uses are spiritual.

This is more complex than you may think but it's been wars and rumours of wars my entire life and even before. I remember watching the TV guy talk about the Cuban missle crisis and the vietnam war when I was a kid.

And I agree with you that the war is a spiritual war but it is also political because man always has to put his 2 cents in and he always knows just the best way to oppress his neighbors. So we are in war & rumours of wars right now and there has been two world wars. There's no world war at this moment but it sounds close if you ask me.

The prophecy on the street is that Miami will be nuked. The US is in a war right now in Ukraine. That war is not Russians vs Ukraine, the US is all over that war and Putin knows he's fighting the US. That makes us prime targets to be attacked by Russia (or Russia & China). Then we would have to split our military resources more to home than Ukraine and it might make it easier for Putin in Ukraine after that.

Putin is getting his butt whipped in Ukraine and if he attacks the US to bring himself relief in Ukraine he could decide to just take a stroll across Europe?

The Lord told me to stop watching the news. He said there is so much going on behind the scenes that what we even hear on the news is mere rabbit trails and if I have a need to know something then He will tell me about it. Fair enough!