Behold
Well-Known Member
The Cross does not agree with Legalism.
Get out of that, and everything is correct.
Understanding the Law vs. Grace
- Thread starter Randy Kluth
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The Cross does not agree with Legalism.
Get out of that, and everything is correct.
Behold
Well-Known Member
So far in your Thread, i have stated that "Repentance" from "unbelief", is accepted by God as "Faith in Christ".
Do i need to write this 5 more times for you to understand it, as ive written it 5 times for you so far., Randy Kluth.
Now, their is a false theology that teaches that "living IN a state of repentance" is required to be saved and stay saved.
If that is your Cross denying theology, then that is Legalism.
Again, "grace" is a principle and a means. But it is also a *system,* a covenant system. When Christ came he brought Grace as a system of righteousness, *apart from the Law.* Abraham received a Promise, but the Promise was fulfilled when Christ came and not before.
Did Abraham receive a measure of grace? Sure. But he could never have received Eternal Life *before* Christ came and provided atonement for his sins.
You're apparently unwilling to see. Belief in Salvation requires that we repent of our ways to embrace Christ's ways. You are embracing an antinomian principle when you insist that *belief* is enough, and not *repentance.* Your sense of *repentance* omits real repentance, a real turning from our own ways to embrace Christ's ways.
We do not "repent from unbelief," but *repent from going our own way!* The fact you cannot say this without crossing your antinomian beliefs is telling. I wish to help you, but you're apparently unwilling to listen.
I was raised in this sloppy agape, as they used to call it. It bothered me for years, particularly as an adolescent. It took years for me to understand that repentance is not Legalism because being raised a Lutheran it was drilled into me that we *need do nothing* to be saved, except to *believe.*
Now I know how untrue that is, that this confuses the real need we have to repent. But you can believe what you want. It won't change you if you don't think you need to change.
But in reality we all do need to change. Initially, we need to give up our ways for Christ's ways in order to receive Eternal Life from him as a free gift.
And then we need to go on going his way with the help of the Holy Spirit, who comes upon us initially to guarantee us our salvation and to help us live out that salvation. I've said all I need to say here.
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Behold
Well-Known Member
Abraham was "justified by faith" before Jesus was born.
Abraham is the "father of our faith"...yet Abraham died before Christ was born.
Behold
Well-Known Member
Never.
We dont receive Christ's Atonement, based on "i decided i will keep commandments and law and try to be like Christ".
See,
Its like this.....
"""" God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were YET sinners, Christ died for us."""
See that? That is not...>"God i agree to your system, now, can you save me"?
So, you are teaching.....>"if i agree to be" then God will save me based on my agreement." yet, God's only requirement to save a person, is "all that believe in Jesus, shall be saved".
"Grace Through Faith"., "without works or deeds of the LAW"..
And one more...
"to him that worketh not, but believeth in GOD who justifies the UNGODLY.... their FAITH is counted as righteousness".
This means a sinner, yet sinning, still ungodly, comes to the Cross of Christ, repents of their unbelief... and BELIEVES., and at that point, in that instant ......God accepts their faith as "faith is counted as righteousness" and they are "justified by faith".
= No Works.
= No Water
= No "system"
= No self effort
= No Commandment keeping
Listen to the story of Simon the Sorcerer. He believed in Christ and embraced Christ as his Savior, and yet he did not truly get saved because he did not truly repent. *Believing* was not enough. He had to *repent of his sins* in order to follow Christ for Salvation. He had to truly give up his own ways to go God's way.
Acts 8.13 Simon himself believed and was baptized. And he followed Philip everywhere, astonished by the great signs and miracles he saw.
14 When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to Samaria. 15 When they arrived, they prayed for the new believers there that they might receive the Holy Spirit, 16 because the Holy Spirit had not yet come on any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.
18 When Simon saw that the Spirit was given at the laying on of the apostles’ hands, he offered them money 19 and said, “Give me also this ability so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit.”
20 Peter answered: “May your money perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money! 21 You have no part or share in this ministry, because your heart is not right before God. 22 Repent of this wickedness and pray to the Lord in the hope that he may forgive you for having such a thought in your heart. 23 For I see that you are full of bitterness and captive to sin.”
Simon came under the false impression he could *buy Salvation,* or buy the Holy Spirit with His miracles. Even though he had faith, belief was not enough! There was lack of repentance in his faith in Jesus.
True faith in Jesus requires repentance of our ways to follow his way. Faith is not a work to merit Salvation, but rather, an act of obedience to meet the conditions necessary to receive Christ's Salvation as a free gift.
We do not *pay* for this Salvation, but we give up something in order to get it. We cannot earn it, nor can we pay for it. We do not even *work* for it. But we must do something to meet the conditions necessary to receive it. And that is repenting of our ways to embrace his way.
The hang up here, that was with me for years as a Lutheran and for many others who are genuine Christians, is that we were told, as good Protestants, "we need do nothing for our Salvation--not even repentance." We read the following....
Rom 4.What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? 2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”
But we also need to read this...
James 2.21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar?
But we sometimes fail to see that Paul was not talking about repentance as if it is a "work" meriting Salvation. Rather, Paul, in Romans, was talking about meriting Salvation itself--not meeting conditions necessary to receive it. And that's what James is confirming, that Abraham had to *do something* to meet the conditions necessary to prove his faith as genuine.
Jesus clearly said there is a condition to receive his Gospel of the Kingdom, which is Salvation. And the condition, clearly spelled out, is repentance. To say anything else is to deny or ignore the following...
Matt 4.17 From that time on Jesus began to preach, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven has come near.”
Acts 2.38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Acts 8.13 Simon himself believed and was baptized. And he followed Philip everywhere, astonished by the great signs and miracles he saw.
14 When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to Samaria. 15 When they arrived, they prayed for the new believers there that they might receive the Holy Spirit, 16 because the Holy Spirit had not yet come on any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.
18 When Simon saw that the Spirit was given at the laying on of the apostles’ hands, he offered them money 19 and said, “Give me also this ability so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit.”
20 Peter answered: “May your money perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money! 21 You have no part or share in this ministry, because your heart is not right before God. 22 Repent of this wickedness and pray to the Lord in the hope that he may forgive you for having such a thought in your heart. 23 For I see that you are full of bitterness and captive to sin.”
Simon came under the false impression he could *buy Salvation,* or buy the Holy Spirit with His miracles. Even though he had faith, belief was not enough! There was lack of repentance in his faith in Jesus.
True faith in Jesus requires repentance of our ways to follow his way. Faith is not a work to merit Salvation, but rather, an act of obedience to meet the conditions necessary to receive Christ's Salvation as a free gift.
We do not *pay* for this Salvation, but we give up something in order to get it. We cannot earn it, nor can we pay for it. We do not even *work* for it. But we must do something to meet the conditions necessary to receive it. And that is repenting of our ways to embrace his way.
The hang up here, that was with me for years as a Lutheran and for many others who are genuine Christians, is that we were told, as good Protestants, "we need do nothing for our Salvation--not even repentance." We read the following....
Rom 4.What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? 2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”
But we also need to read this...
James 2.21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar?
But we sometimes fail to see that Paul was not talking about repentance as if it is a "work" meriting Salvation. Rather, Paul, in Romans, was talking about meriting Salvation itself--not meeting conditions necessary to receive it. And that's what James is confirming, that Abraham had to *do something* to meet the conditions necessary to prove his faith as genuine.
Jesus clearly said there is a condition to receive his Gospel of the Kingdom, which is Salvation. And the condition, clearly spelled out, is repentance. To say anything else is to deny or ignore the following...
Matt 4.17 From that time on Jesus began to preach, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven has come near.”
Acts 2.38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
You change my words in order to continue promoting antinomianism and an unbiblical denial of the requirement to *repent.* Why is it you can't define "repentance" for what it really is? You call it "repenting from unbelief." But the Bible calls it "repenting from sin"--not just from the sin of unbelief, but more from all sin, especially the sin of going our own way--our self-autonomy.
I never said our acceptance of Christ is based on keeping the Law of Moses. But you deliberately mislead others or yourself into claiming I'm proclaiming Salvation under the Law of Moses. Or, are you deliberately confusing the Law of Moses with any legal requirement?
If so, you're back to denying the basic definition of "repentance." And Jesus clearly proclaimed the need for repentance, as I've just quoted. Apparently, you think your Protestant Theology, or your corrupt version of it, trumps Jesus' theology?
Behold
Well-Known Member
"Grace through Faith",, Not of works, not of the Law.
"Faith is counted as Righteousness".
God saves a person "while they are yet a sinner". "ungodly".
Salvation is a GIFT.
"The GIFT of Salvation"
You dont earn it, you dont work for it......you only receive it.
Behold
Well-Known Member
Repentance from "unbelief".
This is "Faith in Christ"
"Faith, is counted as Righteousness", "Justified by Faith" without the deeds of the Law, without works.
"Grace Through Faith".
"all that believe in Jesus, shall be saved"
Jesus said..>"all that BELIEVE IN Me, I give unto you eternal life, and you shall never go to Hell (perish) "
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
Yet we are told Abraham was imputed righteousness.
It was Christ's righteousness that was imputed to him. God is outside of time
Abraham had faith imputed to him for righteousness. But that righteousness did *not* merit Eternal Life. If you think he obtained Eternal Life before Christ offered up his atonement, you are a heretic.
I'm not calling you a heretic, but just trying to make you think. Faith and righteousness both existed before Christ, going back as far as Adam and Eve. Faith and righteousness existed under the Law in the generic sense. But Paul also used the word "Faith" as a system brought in only after Christ had come. We must be able to make these distinctions, or get utterly confused.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
Yeah I do
Paul said we recieve the same gift of grace that abraham did
romans 5
16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be [d]sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all 17 (as it is written, “I have made you a father of many nations”) in the presence of Him whom he believed—God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did; 18 who, contrary to hope, in hope believed, so that he became the father of many nations, according to what was spoken, “So shall your descendants be.” 19 And not being weak in faith, he did not consider his own body, already dead (since he was about a hundred years old), and the deadness of Sarah’s womb. 20 He did not waver at the promise of God through unbelief, but was strengthened in faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully convinced that what He had promised He was also able to perform. 22 And therefore “it was accounted to him for righteousness.”
23 Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him, 24 but also for us. It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, 25 who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification.
I just edited my post to include more explanation that I was not calling you a heretic. But if you do believe that Eternal Life came apart from Christ's redemption you are indeed a heretic, and will have to justify that to every doctrinally-orthodox Christian on here or anywhere! You don't want to have to do that! ;)
We have righteousness imputed to our faith, just as God imputed righteousness to men of God in the Old Testament. The difference is, our faith today is a New Covenant system--you may call it either Faith or Grace, in the sense of it being a covenant system, as opposed to the OT covenant system of Law.
But to have righteousness imputed to your faith, you could live in either the OT or NT eras. But it did not grant Eternal Life apart from Christ's atonement. You had better be clear on that. Having righteousness imputed and having received Eternal Life are two different things!
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
Abraham could not be imputed righteousness, UNLESS it was christ's righteousness.
There is no other righteousness for which to impute to anyone that would make them righteous
Its only called a new covenant in that it is not the law..
But its the same old covenant of old. it actually is the abrahamic covenant..
Yes, the New Covenant is kind of a makeover of the Old Covenant, completing what it started. However, it is an entirely different covenant in the sense that the old covenant required 613 requirements, while the New Covenant only requires that we abandon our own ways for the way of Christ. I can't put it much clearer.
In no case is either the Law of Moses or the Gospel of Christ void of "law" in the generic sense. Any moral system at all requires "law" in the generic sense. But the Law of Moses was a distinct system of law. As such, the "Law" has a technical application that goes well beyond the principle of "law," marking it as a "system," and not merely as a principle.
Not even the Law was predicated on the notion that men could "earn" their Salvation. It certainly didn't indicate that they could obtain Eternal Life by that system. With each animal sacrifice would come another sin that needed to be sacrificed for.
So the system of "Grace" supplied what the Law was unable to do. Christ offered a final sacrifice of atonement in place of the many sacrifices under the Law that could *never* bring Eternal Life--only a temporary fix.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
Yes this is what I mean
The abraham covenant is is the one we need to look at. If was fulfilled in Christ. and is the means of salvation - in you (christ) shall all the nations of the world be blessed
You are correct - partially. The saved believer is no longer under the law but under grace. The curse of the law is death - physical and spiritual, and as such, the law itself is not a curse. Instead, the law as described in Rom 7:12 is holy, just, and good. Scripture states that the law is also our tutor/guardian leading us to Christ via justification by faith. However, I believe you err when you claim that the law does not apply to the believer. How can that be when sin is defined as TRANSGRESSION OF THE LAW per 1 Jn 3:4? So when a believer sins, is he not transgressing the Law of Moses? That is God's standard. We don't get to define what sin is, and is not. Sin is disobeying God as defined in the OT. Jesus fulfilled the law instead of abolishing it. He made the law complete for example by stating that the sin of adultery is not just the act of physical adultery but one commits adultery as well by lusting with one's eyes after another person. Thus when one becomes a believer, the law is not just written on tablets of stone but it is now written upon our hearts. It's obvious then that the act of physical adultery is still sinful (not done away with) but Jesus fulfilled the law by making spiritual adultery a matter of one's heart condition. And that is precisely where evangelical Christians err by disregarding the role of the law as minimal or no longer applicable.
The following example is a good illustration given that the law is our tutor. The law tutors us as to what sin is. When You study the state driver's handbook to pass your driver's exam, the handbook is your tutor. It contains all of the rules of the road that you are required to know. When you pass your driving exam, you no longer need a tutor because you successfully passed the test and now presumably know the rules of driving. You are no longer under the tutor but you still have to obey the traffic laws that it taught, don't you? You are no longer under a tutor but you are still bound by what the tutor taught you. And that is precisely how we are completely unaware that the law still applies to us. We are no longer under the law/tutor because we have come to faith in Christ but we are still required to obey what the tutor taught us; i.e. God's commands/laws which (Jesus himself followed) we follow in order to live a sanctified life. Grace enables us to obey the law (which defines what sin is) per Titus 2:11-12, not ignore it.
Adam and Eve had a choice
The tree of life (grace) vs the tree of good and evil (law)
It’s no wonder that the heavenly prosecutor Satan was so eager to get them to pick the tree of law
The tree of life (grace) vs the tree of good and evil (law)
It’s no wonder that the heavenly prosecutor Satan was so eager to get them to pick the tree of law
I'm an Evangelical Christian, and would disagree with you. While it's true what Paul said, that sin is defined for Israel by breaking the Law of Moses, it does not define sin for Christians today. We are in no sense *under the Law of Moses.*
The Law serves today only as an example of how Israel was disqualified, as all men are, from Eternal Life as long as they are under the Law or unable to appeal to Christ for forgiveness. Precisely because we are no longer under the Law today we cannot be condemned by the Law.
Condemnation remains for men who live in sin even though they are not under the Law because sin exists apart from the Law as much as it did under the Law. Sin is defined not just by the Law of Moses, but also by the eternal Law of God, existing both before and after the Law of Moses.
Today Christians are under the mercy of Christ who has the authority to give us Eternal Life despite our sinful condition. The Law of Moses is not only helpless to condemn us while we are under the mercy of Christ, but it no longer remains in effect any longer, since Israel irretrievably broke that covenant.
Those who wish to believe they are still under the Law are obligated to argue with God over whether Israel destroyed that covenant. And even if God restored that covenant, it would be inconsistent of God to do so, since He has now supplied something greater than the Law.
Those who were under the Law were obligated to keep 613 requirements, including temple, priest, and sacrifice laws. The temple doesn't exist, nor does the priesthood. And a better sacrifice has been made.
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