UNDER THE LAW!

[justbyfaith]

The Law did far more than just tell men they are sinners. Any prophet could've done that!

The moral law did only that. The moral law does not have the power to save (Galatians 3:21); not even temporarily.

No, the Law was a system by which an entire nation could approach God, despite the fact they still had a sin nature and committed sins. They could live in righteousness, and have their flaws covered, as long as they operated under this Law in faith! You really seem to rob the value of the Law as God presented it!

I believe that you are speaking of the ceremonial law. Because what you are saying does not apply to the moral law.

There is no obedience to the law (see Galatians 3:22, Galatians 6:13, Romans 3:23) apart from Christ.

That's crazy, and you should be clear about this.

I think that you must have not even looked up the scriptures that I gave you.

Note that the preaching of the cross is foolishness (crazy) to those who are perishing; and it pleases God to save men through the foolishness (craziness) of preaching (1 Corinthians 1:18-21).

That there is no obedience to the law apart from faith in Christ is a well- known and established scriptural fact.

 

[Randy Kluth]

The moral law did only that. The moral law does not have the power to save (Galatians 3:21); not even temporarily.

You are confusing the terms. "Salvation" is a word that has to be defined *in context.* It can mean eternal salvation or it can mean deliverance from an enemy.

The Law delivered Israel from the curse of enemy invasions, for example. As such, it was a *temporary salvation.* This does *not* refer to "eternal salvation."

And that is why I refer to the redemptive qualities of the Law as providing for a temporary redemption. The animal sacrifices redeemed Israel temporarily by providing a temporary reprieve, allowing them to remain in fellowship with God until the next significant transgression threatened them with a complete collapse of that system.

Obviously, the Law, therefore, could not provide eternal salvation, or resurrection from the dead. What it could do, however, was keep Israel in a place where they could hope for this eternal salvation. The redemptive qualities of the Law allowed Israel to remain in fellowship with God, covering their sins in the meantime, assuming they offered these sacrifices in good faith.

I believe that you are speaking of the ceremonial law. Because what you are saying does not apply to the moral law.

When I speak of the "Law of Moses" I am not distinguishing between its "moral" elements and its "ceremonial" elements. It was bundled together in a single covenant.

I think that you must have not even looked up the scriptures that I gave you.

Note that the preaching of the cross is foolishness (crazy) to those who are perishing; and it pleases God to save men through the foolishness (craziness) of preaching (1 Corinthians 1:18-21).

That there is no obedience to the law apart from faith in Christ is a well- known and established scriptural fact.

Clearly, you have no clue what I'm arguing. That's okay. There's plenty of time to discuss this.

 

[justbyfaith]

You are confusing the terms. "Salvation" is a word that has to be defined *in context.*

In context of what I am saying, salvation is the imparting of spiritual, everlasting life.

And that is why I refer to the redemptive qualities of the Law as providing for a temporary redemption.

A temporary redemption is no redemption at all. There is no going to heaven with a temporary redemption.

And when I understand that I am redeemed, I understand this to mean that I am going to heaven.

 

[Randy Kluth]

In context of what I am saying, salvation is the imparting of spiritual, everlasting life.

You were commenting and apparently trying to rebut *my position!* I was referring to a kind of "temporary redemption," and you denied that. So you were referring to the context in which *I was using the term.*

What you were doing then was change the context in which I was describing "temporary salvation" to *your definition* of salvation, which is eternal salvation. Obviously, temporary salvation and eternal salvation are incompatible, and I never meant them to be understood as such.

A temporary redemption is no redemption at all. There is no going to heaven with a temporary redemption.

Do you even listen to my argument or to my explanation? How are you to engage in a discussion if you can't even represent my position properly?

I argued "temporary salvation," or "temporary redemption," in the very real sense in which God Himself applied it! I specifically cited the sense of salvation that is distinct from eternal salvation, namely, a deliverance from enemies. Last time I looked, Israel had been delivered from enemies while they were under the Law and were *not* eternally saved! ;)

And when I understand that I am redeemed, I understand this to mean that I am going to heaven.

Yes, that is one sense of "salvation." There certainly is an "eternal salvation," for which Christ saved us.

But there is also this other sense of "salvation," in which people are only *temporarily saved.* The example that came to mind was when Israel was delivered from enemies, such as during the times of the judges.

You deny such a concept exists. And that makes no sense. All you have to do is read through the book of Judges, and you will see that it's true.

Judges 2.16 Then the Lord raised up judges, who saved them out of the hands of these raiders. 17 Yet they would not listen to their judges but prostituted themselves to other gods and worshiped them. They quickly turned from the ways of their ancestors, who had been obedient to the Lord’s commands. 18 Whenever the Lord raised up a judge for them, he was with the judge and saved them out of the hands of their enemies as long as the judge lived; for the Lord relented because of their groaning under those who oppressed and afflicted them. 19 But when the judge died, the people returned to ways even more corrupt than those of their ancestors, following other gods and serving and worshiping them. They refused to give up their evil practices and stubborn ways.

This is a perfect example of what I mean by "temporary redemption," or "temporary salvation." It has nothing to do with "eternal salvation," except that being kept in God's covenant kept alive their hope in a future eternal salvation through Messiah.

There is no way you should be denying this concept of "temporary salvation" unless you just want to bicker over words. Please try to get on the same page with me?

 

[justbyfaith]

What you were doing then was change the context in which I was describing "temporary salvation" to *your definition* of salvation, which is eternal salvation.

I say again that temporary salvation is no salvation at all.

If you want to call deliverance from enemies, salvation, then you need to qualify your statement in the beginning by saying that you mean deliverance from enemies. In fact, why should you call it salvation at all? That is confusing. Just call it deliverance from enemies.

 

[Randy Kluth]

I say again that temporary salvation is no salvation at all.

If you want to call deliverance from enemies, salvation, then you need to qualify your statement in the beginning by saying that you mean deliverance from enemies. In fact, why should you call it salvation at all? That is confusing. Just call it deliverance from enemies.

Are you kidding? I *did* do that! I referred to *temporary salvation,* and then defined that, lest there be any misunderstanding, as something like a *deliverance from enemies!* Immediately after I did that you claimed *there is no such thing!* And I'm saying, why did you deny there is such a thing as "deliverance from enemies," that can be explained as a *temporary salvation?*

in post #47 I defined it like this:
"Animal sacrifices were only good on a temporary basis."

in post #51 I said:
"The Law does not produce a faith that enables permanent redemption. It is only a temporary means of redemption. Eternal redemption depends on Christ."

then in post #53 you said:
"The law does not bring about redemption at all."

in post #57 you said:
"The only sense that the (ceremonial) law could do this was in pointing people to Christ, who would be a sacrificial Lamb to take away the sins of the world."

in post #61 you said:
" The moral law does not have the power to save (Galatians 3:21); not even temporarily."

in post #62 I said:
"You are confusing the terms. "Salvation" is a word that has to be defined *in context.* It can mean eternal salvation or it can mean deliverance from an enemy."

in post #63 you said:
"A temporary redemption is no redemption at all."

And here you are again, in post #65 doubling down on the idea that there is no "temporary redemption." And you also claim that I should've defined this as "deliverance from enemies."

But in fact, as you can see, I did this, and despite the fact I did you continue to deny such a thing exists, and indicate it should not be called "temporary salvation" or "temporary redemption" at all!

I even quoted from Judges 2 to show you that this is called "salvation" in the Bible, which clearly is not "eternal salvation." But you seem to deny the thing exists because I'm using the wrong term, which you insist can only refer to "eternal salvation."

You are being a bit difficult on this. Why don't we accept each other's terminology and argue the concepts rather than argue over the language?

But here is the point. I don't just define "temporary salvation" or "temporary redemption" as deliverance from enemies. I also define it as the benefit of the Law, which was to deliver from enemies, cover sins, and maintain a relationship with God. In the scramble to argue over the words I use, you miss the issue I'm trying to establish. Do you understand what I'm saying?

The Law *operated by faith.* If it didn't, it couldn't produce a relationship with God at all. But it did! And it could only do this if Israel responded to God's word *in faith!*

I think you're confused because Paul utilizes the word "faith" as a shortcut for "eternal salvation." So every time you hear the word "faith" or "salvation," you think "eternal salvation." But the OT Law was predicated on faith operating on a temporary basis until eternal salvation could be won by Christ. I hope you understand now?

 

[justbyfaith]

Are you kidding? I *did* do that! I referred to *temporary salvation,* and then defined that, lest there be any misunderstanding, as something like a *deliverance from enemies!* Immediately after I did that you claimed *there is no such thing!* And I'm saying, why did you deny there is such a thing as "deliverance from enemies," that can be explained as a *temporary salvation?*

From my recollection, you did not define temporary salvation as deliverance from enemies early on in the convo.

But here is the point. I don't just define "temporary salvation" or "temporary redemption" as deliverance from enemies. I also define it as the benefit of the Law, which was to deliver from enemies, cover sins, and maintain a relationship with God. In the scramble to argue over the words I use, you miss the issue I'm trying to establish. Do you understand what I'm saying?

And this is my point: you don't believe that temporary salvation is only defined as deliverance from enemies.

You claim that the law establishes a relationship with God; when in all reality the law only has the power to show a man that he is a sinner (Romans 3:20, Galatians 3:24, Psalms 19:7 (kjv)) and does not have the power to impart life, i.e.establish relationship (Galatians 3:21).

Even in the Old Testament, the law pointed to Messiah; and if anyone believed in Christ as the result of the law's testimony, relationship was established.

Therefore the law can never directly establish relationship; but only indirectly.

To put it in other words, the law is very much the same as the testimony of conscience in Romans 2.

There are three lights by which a man can come to the knowledge of the Lord. The first light, the light of creation (Romans 1). If the first light is obeyed and the person believes in YHWH as they see His eternal power and Godhead expressed in the creation, they will receive the 2nd light, the light of conscience, of which the knowledge of the law can be a part (Romans 2).

If anyone obeys the 2nd light, understanding that they are a sinner in need of a Saviour, the 3rd light will be presented to them...the light of Christ and the Cross (Romans 3).

 

[Randy Kluth]

From my recollection, you did not define temporary salvation as deliverance from enemies early on in the convo.
And this is my point: you don't believe that temporary salvation is only defined as deliverance from enemies.

You claim that the law establishes a relationship with God; when in all reality the law only has the power to show a man that he is a sinner (Romans 3:20, Galatians 3:24, Psalms 19:7 (kjv)) and does not have the power to impart life, i.e.establish relationship (Galatians 3:21).

Even in the Old Testament, the law pointed to Messiah; and if anyone believed in Christ as the result of the law's testimony, relationship was established.

Therefore the law can never directly establish relationship; but only indirectly.

To put it in other words, the law is very much the same as the testimony of conscience in Romans 2.
There are three lights by which a man can come to the knowledge of the Lord. The first light, the light of creation (Romans 1). If the first light is obeyed and the person believes in YHWH as they see His eternal power and Godhead expressed in the creation, they will receive the 2nd light, the light of conscience, of which the knowledge of the law can be a part (Romans 2).

If anyone obeys the 2nd light, understanding that they are a sinner in need of a Saviour, the 3rd light will be presented to them...the light of Christ and the Cross (Romans 3).

You show very little understanding of the purpose of the Law, and only quote NT Scriptures, applying it inadequately, not really understanding the totality of what Paul was saying. Anybody can quote Scriptures, but not everybody can fully understand Scriptures.

Let's just take a quick look at the Law, to see if men had only a vague knowledge of God through it, or a direct knowing of Him, to see if men had an intimate acquaintance of God by means of it, or if somehow they were unable to see God directly through it.

The Law seemed to have limited Man's connection to God because it was showing the need for an eternal redemption. But the full knowledge of God, that was hindered by our sin and exposed by the Law, will only be fulfilled in the resurrection.

This is at the heart of the Law, to keep Israel alive, temporarily, until eternal life can be provided for them. And the purpose in staying alive was to be in covenant relationship with God, in a state of being blessed. That was an assurance of God's good pleasure, giving them hope of eternal life.

Lev 18.5 Keep my decrees and laws, for the person who obeys them will live by them. I am the Lord.

That is, when Israel obeyed the Law, they would survive and be blessed. During the time that they lived, they would have assurance, by God's blessing, that He was having favor on them. This would give them the hope for a future means of obtaining eternal life and a lasting relationship with God.

Deut 4.5 See, I have taught you decrees and laws as the Lord my God commanded me, so that you may follow them in the land you are entering to take possession of it. 6 Observe them carefully, for this will show your wisdom and understanding to the nations, who will hear about all these decrees and say, “Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people.” 7 What other nation is so great as to have their gods near them the way the Lord our God is near us whenever we pray to him? 8 And what other nation is so great as to have such righteous decrees and laws as this body of laws I am setting before you today?

This was much more than just the natural conscience of man, pointing him to his sin, and to his need for a Savior.

Deut 4.32 Ask now about the former days, long before your time, from the day God created human beings on the earth; ask from one end of the heavens to the other. Has anything so great as this ever happened, or has anything like it ever been heard of? 33 Has any other people heard the voice of God speaking out of fire, as you have, and lived? 34 Has any god ever tried to take for himself one nation out of another nation, by testings, by signs and wonders, by war, by a mighty hand and an outstretched arm, or by great and awesome deeds, like all the things the Lord your God did for you in Egypt before your very eyes?

This shows an intimate, personal knowledge of God, in order to distinguish Him from other gods that are not really known. And it actually consisted of a *loving* relationship, such that a real relationship existed between God and man.

Deut 4.35 You were shown these things so that you might know that the Lord is God; besides him there is no other. 36 From heaven he made you hear his voice to discipline you. On earth he showed you his great fire, and you heard his words from out of the fire. 37 Because he loved your ancestors and chose their descendants after them, he brought you out of Egypt by his Presence and his great strength, 38 to drive out before you nations greater and stronger than you and to bring you into their land to give it to you for your inheritance, as it is today.

Don't misunderstand me. I know that the Law did provide knowledge of sin, effecting a barrier against the right to inherit eternal life under that system.

Exo 19.12 Put limits for the people around the mountain and tell them, ‘Be careful that you do not approach the mountain or touch the foot of it. Whoever touches the mountain is to be put to death. 13 They are to be stoned or shot with arrows; not a hand is to be laid on them. No person or animal shall be permitted to live.’ Only when the ram’s horn sounds a long blast may they approach the mountain.”...
23 Moses said to the Lord, “The people cannot come up Mount Sinai, because you yourself warned us, ‘Put limits around the mountain and set it apart as holy.’”

And so, the Law provided a barrier between God and the people until final redemption could be won. But in the meantime they had these specifications that allowed Israel to have a limited relationship with God until eternal salvation could be won.

Lest there be any doubt that the Law was designed to give real, though limited, access to God, consider this. This was aimed at temporary salvation in David's lifetime, and the observance of the Law brought him spiritual joy. That is an intimate knowledge of God!

Psalm 119.174 I long for your salvation, Lord, and your law gives me delight.

 

[justbyfaith]

Anybody can quote Scriptures, but not everybody can fully understand Scriptures.

You are being condescending. I meditate on the scriptures day and night in order that I might not only be able to quote them, but to understand them.

This is at the heart of the Law, to keep Israel alive, temporarily, until eternal life can be provided for them.

The law simply cannot impart life.

Gal 3:21, Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
Gal 3:22, But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Lev 18.5 Keep my decrees and laws, for the person who obeys them will live by them. I am the Lord.

Paul even quoted this and pointed out the following:

Gal 3:10, For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
Gal 3:11, But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Gal 3:12, And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
Gal 3:13, Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

I could exposit what this means but since you claim to have such exquisite understanding I will allow you to interpret it for yourself.

This shows an intimate, personal knowledge of God, in order to distinguish Him from other gods that are not really known. And it actually consisted of a *loving* relationship, such that a real relationship existed between God and man.

1Ti 2:5, For there is one God, even one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Again, interpret this for yourself.

 

[justbyfaith]

and only quote NT Scriptures,

Yes, the New Testament supersedes the old and is superior to it.

See Hebrews 8:13 and/or 2 Corinthians 3.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Yes, the New Testament supersedes the old and is superior to it.

See Hebrews 8:13 and/or 2 Corinthians 3.

The word of God was as true in the OT as it is in the NT. The only difference is what has to do with the Old Covenant is obsolete, and what has to do with the New Covenant is eternal. As you yourself would admit, the word of God under the Law can still speak to us about the truths of God, His character, and our morality.

 

[101G]

#1.Hebrews 7:12

#2. Hebrews 10:16

so what is God's LAWS? or what has he written on our hearts that he has required to do, and has not changed in?

#3. Micah 6:8

WHY Micah 6:8?

#4. Answer, Romans 2:14 & 15

PICJAG

 

[Randy Kluth]

You are being condescending. I meditate on the scriptures day and night in order that I might not only be able to quote them, but to understand them.

I didn't know how else to tell you. In my long life I've gone down a path, and I'm trying to give you the benefit of my experience and studies. If you don't want this, fine. I hope you get it from somewhere else. I'm expendable. And I'm certainly not the best help there is!

The law simply cannot impart life.

I've quoted to you several times that the Law brought the reward of life and survival in this present mortal life! If Israel obeyed God's instructions, then God would reward them by delivering them from their enemies, from sicknesses, from tragedies. Certainly, it was not a guaranteed escape from all problems, but it was a promise that nothing would result from God's anger, because He would be pleased with their obedience.

Maybe you don't call escaping death from enemies or from sickness "life?" Maybe you're talking strictly about eternal life in the resurrection? Maybe you're only talking about spiritual life that came from Christ following our redemption?

Well, of course Israel couldn't obtain spiritual life replete with a guaranteed resurrection until *after* Christ had bought our redemption! But to say that spiritual life did not come through the Law is extremely naive. The whole purpose of the Law was to bring Israel close to God, and to keep them there!

Gal 3:21, Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
Gal 3:22, But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Paul even quoted this and pointed out the following:

Gal 3:10, For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
Gal 3:11, But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Gal 3:12, And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
Gal 3:13, Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

I could exposit what this means but since you claim to have such exquisite understanding I will allow you to interpret it for yourself.

You don't need to add the superlatives--I've never called my understanding "exquisite!" ;) What you don't seem to understand is that Paul is talking about spiritual life that comes *after* the resurrection of Christ, through the impartation of our *new nature!* He isn't at all denying that Israel had spiritual life from God before this through the Law of Moses! On the contrary, Paul would acknowledge that the Law did give Israel a spiritual connection between God and Israel. You are just reading this wrong.

Rom 2.13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous...
2.15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts.
2.25 Circumcision has value if you observe the law, but if you break the law, you have become as though you had not been circumcised.
3.19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God.

Your problem is with this:
Rom 3.20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.

What Paul is talking about here is not Israel's obedience to the Law, but rather, the work in trying to obtain eternal redemption under the Law. These are two very different things.

Israel was asked to obey the Law, and this was considered righteousness. But the *goal* of the Law was to obtain redemption, and Israel could only obtain this *temporarily.*

Paul is saying that the ultimate goal was to achieve *eternal redemption,* which was something the Law could not accomplish. It could only be accomplished by Christ.

The Law depended on the righteousness of fallen men. The works of Christ depended only on him, who was not spoiled by sin. His works, therefore, in redeeming us, could not be disqualified, such as fallen men were disqualified under the Law.

1Ti 2:5, For there is one God, even one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Again, interpret this for yourself.

Let's not let this become hostile. My wish is to help you, and not to do battle with you. We're on the same side. If I'm wrong, then okay. Just follow the Lord the best you know how. This is merely a discussion of different views. If we're both walking by the Spirit we should come closer in our views over time.

 

[justbyfaith]

Maybe you're only talking about spiritual life that came from Christ following our redemption?

Exactly

But to say that spiritual life did not come through the Law is extremely naive.

Then Paul was being naive when he wrote Galatians 3:21.

What you don't seem to understand is that Paul is talking about spiritual life that comes *after* the resurrection of Christ, through the impartation of our *new nature!* He isn't at all denying that Israel had spiritual life from God before this through the Law of Moses!

The only spiritual life that Israel had through the law of Moses was indirectly; in that the law pointed them to the coming Messiah. Before Christ came, men looked forward to the coming of the Messiah and this was what produced any spiritual life that they may have had. We look back on what they looked forward to.

But the *goal* of the Law was to obtain redemption, and Israel could only obtain this *temporarily.*

Paul is saying that the ultimate goal was to achieve *eternal redemption,*

Please explain to me how a temporary redemption is any redemption at all.

To me, redemption means a place in heaven. Temporary redemption does not provide that because it is not eternal and therefore has an end. The person loses redemption at some point and at that point it is simply as if he or she had never been redeemed.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Exactly

Then Paul was being naive when he wrote Galatians 3:21.

Gal 3.21 Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. 22 But Scripture has locked up everything under the control of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.

You're not reading this right. I was speaking of spiritual life *before* Christian redemption. And I don't see how you can deny it existed under the Law? Do you really think Moses, Abraham, and the Prophets had no spiritual life while they were exercising obedience under the Law? That would be extremely naive, but I can't believe you would say such a thing?

So what are we talking about here? Paul is explicitly talking about promises made and fulfilled in Jesus Christ! This is *not* talking about spiritual life before Jesus Christ! To say that spiritual life did not exist before Jesus Christ is patently absurd! But of course I would agree with you that the kind of spiritual life that came after Jesus Christ did *not* come by the Law! Are we on the same page?

The only spiritual life that Israel had through the law of Moses was indirectly; in that the law pointed them to the coming Messiah. Before Christ came, men looked forward to the coming of the Messiah and this was what produced any spiritual life that they may have had. We look back on what they looked forward to.

Yes, but do you even know what you're talking about? You're reciting Scripture without even knowing what you're saying!

I also believe in these Scriptures. But I'm explaining the difference between spiritual life before Christ and spiritual life after Christ. You're not making this distinction clear at all!

Please explain to me how a temporary redemption is any redemption at all.

How many times do you need me to explain it? If you want to read the entire thing you can find it under Mount Gerazim and the blessings of obedience to the Law. There, you will find that there are rewards for obedience to the Law, including deliverance from enemies, escape from punishing diseases, and material prosperity in the present life.

All these things are referred to as finding "life" by the Law. The following refers to both material prosperity in this life and to spiritual life in covenant with God.

Lev 18.5 Keep my decrees and laws, for the person who obeys them will live by them. I am the Lord.

The animal sacrifices and redemptive performances by the priests were temporary in the sense that they did not permanently redeem Israel. They still had the sin nature, which would have to be ritually dealt with again. No ritual under the Law permanently cleansed men. Only Christ could do that.

And the blessings and deliverances God brought to Israel when they obeyed the Law were only good until Israel sinned again. Then they would have to suffer punishing blows by enemies again. Even more, they would all still have to die, whether they were obedient or not. The Law and its obedience simply could not permanently redeem man. Only the resurrection can do that, which is what Christ came to give us.

I believe you're thrown off by a term that is not used except by me. But others say it in different ways, perhaps? Certainly the Bible says it.

To me, redemption means a place in heaven. Temporary redemption does not provide that because it is not eternal and therefore has an end. The person loses redemption at some point and at that point it is simply as if he or she had never been redeemed.

Yes, again you're talking about the permanent redemption of Christ. Nothing before Christ could've done that. We agree on that.

But I don't know if we're agreed that rituals of the Law were only temporary, and that deliverance from enemies was only to be viewed as temporary? And I don't know if you agree that there was spiritual life in Israel while they were under the Law? It's rather confusing for me if you don't accept the predicates for my conclusions?

The following refers to temporary salvation/redemption:

Heb 10.11 Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins.

Judges 2.6 Then the Lord raised up judges, who saved them out of the hands of these raiders. 17 Yet they would not listen to their judges but prostituted themselves to other gods and worshiped them. They quickly turned from the ways of their ancestors, who had been obedient to the Lord’s commands.

Deut 31.6 And the Lord said to Moses: “You are going to rest with your ancestors, and these people will soon prostitute themselves to the foreign gods of the land they are entering. They will forsake me and break the covenant I made with them. 17 And in that day I will become angry with them and forsake them; I will hide my face from them, and they will be destroyed. Many disasters and calamities will come on them, and in that day they will ask, ‘Have not these disasters come on us because our God is not with us?’ 18 And I will certainly hide my face in that day because of all their wickedness in turning to other gods.

Due to the sin nature of Man, Israel could never be completely covered for their sins under the Law--not even when they were obedient. Ultimately, the promise of final salvation would fail.

Therefore, the Law was just a temporary provision until final salvation could be given to those who were truly obedient from the heart, because some did good works insincerely.

 

[justbyfaith]

I was speaking of spiritual life *before* Christian redemption. And I don't see how you can deny it existed under the Law? Do you really think Moses, Abraham, and the Prophets had no spiritual life while they were exercising obedience under the Law? That would be extremely naive, but I can't believe you would say such a thing?

Spiritual life never existed because of obedience to the law...rather, the law pointed to faith in the Messiah through which real spiritual life could be obtained.

To say that spiritual life did not exist before Jesus Christ is patently absurd!

But not because of the law. Because people put their faith in the coming Messiah. That is the only reason why anyone had spiritual life in the days of the Old Testament.

But of course I would agree with you that the kind of spiritual life that came after Jesus Christ did *not* come by the Law! Are we on the same page?

And neither did it come by the law before Christ came. Only if you agree with this are we on the same page.

I also believe in these Scriptures. But I'm explaining the difference between spiritual life before Christ and spiritual life after Christ. You're not making this distinction clear at all!

There is no distinction. Spiritual life came only because of faith in the Messiah both before and after the Messiah came.

How many times do you need me to explain it? If you want to read the entire thing you can find it under Mount Gerazim and the blessings of obedience to the Law. There, you will find that there are rewards for obedience to the Law, including deliverance from enemies, escape from punishing diseases, and material prosperity in the present life.

All these things are referred to as finding "life" by the Law.

No, these things are not "life"; for we find in Galatians 3:21 that the law doesn't have the power to impart life.

The following refers to both material prosperity in this life and to spiritual life in covenant with God.

Lev 18.5 Keep my decrees and laws, for the person who obeys them will live by them. I am the Lord.

Life through the law can only be accomplished if you are able to keep it perfectly from conception into eternity (see Galatians 3:10-13).

And the blessings and deliverances God brought to Israel when they obeyed the Law were only good until Israel sinned again.

Israel never stopped sinning.

And I don't know if you agree that there was spiritual life in Israel while they were under the Law?

I don't agree that spiritual life in Israel existed because of the law. It existed because of faith in Christ; which the law pointed to: and so it came because of the law only indirectly.

Judges 2.6 Then the Lord raised up judges, who saved them out of the hands of these raiders. 17 Yet they would not listen to their judges but prostituted themselves to other gods and worshiped them. They quickly turned from the ways of their ancestors, who had been obedient to the Lord’s commands.

Deut 31.6 And the Lord said to Moses: “You are going to rest with your ancestors, and these people will soon prostitute themselves to the foreign gods of the land they are entering. They will forsake me and break the covenant I made with them. 17 And in that day I will become angry with them and forsake them; I will hide my face from them, and they will be destroyed. Many disasters and calamities will come on them, and in that day they will ask, ‘Have not these disasters come on us because our God is not with us?’ 18 And I will certainly hide my face in that day because of all their wickedness in turning to other gods.

My advice to you is that you spend more time reading the New Testament.

Due to the sin nature of Man, Israel could never be completely covered for their sins under the Law--not even when they were obedient. Ultimately, the promise of final salvation would fail.

The promise of final salvation would never fail; because it was not promised through the law. It was promised through faith in the coming Messiah; which the law testified to in its ceremonial codes and regulations.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Spiritual life never existed because of obedience to the law...rather, the law pointed to faith in the Messiah through which real spiritual life could be obtained.

That's not true. Spiritual life was established and sustained between God and Israel on the basis of the covenant of Law.

Deut 30.11 Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. 12 It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, “Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, “Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” 14 No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.

This "word," which is the word of the Law, is the very same "word of faith" that in the NT establishes a spiritual relationship between God and ourselves. God's word is what gives us a "spiritual life." I have no idea what you believe our "spiritual life" is based on if not the word of God?

Rom 10.8 But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

But not because of the law. Because people put their faith in the coming Messiah. That is the only reason why anyone had spiritual life in the days of the Old Testament.

Following the word of the Law in the OT was, in fact, a form of faith in the coming Messiah! If the Law indeed looked forward to eternal life through the Messiah, then obedience to the Law was indeed a form of faith!

And neither did it come by the law before Christ came. Only if you agree with this are we on the same page.

To deny that spiritual life existed in obedience to the Law is a denial of the very purpose of the Law, which was to establish a relationship between God and Israel based on Israel's faithful observance of the Law. In producing righteousness God could bless Israel and remove from them the curses of sin. God could forgive their sins, due to their application of God's remedies through the Law, though this was just preparatory to final redemption through Christ.

So you believe that spiritual life existed before Christ, but you think this had nothing to do with the Law? I have to wonder what you think faith was based on, if not the Law? The Law was the very basis for proving expectation that Messiah would come to extend righteousness for all eternity.

There is no distinction. Spiritual life came only because of faith in the Messiah both before and after the Messiah came.

Please give me an explicit example of how people in the OT established a "spiritual life" by hoping in the coming of Christ? Not even the Prophets had a clear understanding of Christ!

1 Peter 1.10 Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care, 11 trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of the Messiah and the glories that would follow.

If the Prophets barely understood the circumstances about Christ's coming, how on earth would all of the saints of the OT exercise faith in Christ without focusing their obedience on the Law of God? It was the Law itself that gave rise to hope in a coming Messiah!

No, these things are not "life"; for we find in Galatians 3:21 that the law doesn't have the power to impart life.

As I said, you are misunderstanding Gal 3.21. But you apparently just want to ignore the point that the "life" you refer to is the eternal life that Christ won in the NT. I'm talking about spiritual life that existed in the OT!

Life through the law can only be accomplished if you are able to keep it perfectly from conception into eternity (see Galatians 3:10-13).

That's ridiculous. Many benefited from keeping the Law because the sacrifices themselves provided cover for human sin, assuming that the covenant was being practiced in good faith.

Israel never stopped sinning.

Nobody stops sinning because all have a sin nature. That's why OT sacrifices could only temporarily atone for sin. They could not remove the sin nature which cause a continuous repetition of sin. Walking in righteousness was never about walking in perfection, but rather, about having a covenant relationship with God in which a person regularly walks in righteousness and seeks God for covering miscues.

I don't agree that spiritual life in Israel existed because of the law. It existed because of faith in Christ; which the law pointed to: and so it came because of the law only indirectly.

The Law directly provided for spiritual life in the time that adherents followed it. It just couldn't provide *eternal life.* It could, however, offer hope in eternal life, which you are referring to as "looking forward to Christ."

My advice to you is that you spend more time reading the New Testament.

I've spent more than enough time reading it. You need to start understanding it. Reading it is not enough.

The promise of final salvation would never fail; because it was not promised through the law. It was promised through faith in the coming Messiah; which the law testified to in its ceremonial codes and regulations.

The Law contained the promise of eternal life through the Messiah. But it was not the covenant that would itself provide eternal life--only the hope of the same.

The Law did, however, provide spiritual life when Israel obeyed the Law and received from God His approval. His approval equals spiritual life. We must agree to disagree. Thanks for the discussion.

 

[justbyfaith]

I have no idea what you believe our "spiritual life" is based on if not the word of God?

Yes, the word of the Lord; just not based on a set of do's and don'ts that we follow in order to obtain spiritual life. Such an idea is foreign to the New Testament.

Following the word of the Law in the OT was, in fact, a form of faith in the coming Messiah!

No, because the law is not of faith (Galatians 3:12).

If the Law indeed looked forward to eternal life through the Messiah, then obedience to the Law was indeed a form of faith!

I disagree (Galatians 3:12).

To deny that spiritual life existed in obedience to the Law is a denial of the very purpose of the Law, which was to establish a relationship between God and Israel based on Israel's faithful observance of the Law.

The purpose of the law is that it is a schoolmaster to lead men to Christ; through whom we can obtain life. No one can keep the law (Galatians 3:22, Galatians 6:13, Romans 3:23, 1 John 1:8). So faithful observance of the law is a moot point.

So you believe that spiritual life existed before Christ, but you think this had nothing to do with the Law? I have to wonder what you think faith was based on, if not the Law?

Most certainly the word of the Lord (Romans 10:17); just not based on keeping a set of do's and don'ts in order to "obtain spiritual life".

The Law was the very basis for proving expectation that Messiah would come to extend righteousness for all eternity.

There is a difference between the word of the Lord, and the law. The law is a set of do's and don'ts that God set forth to show mankind that he is a sinner. When a man tries to obey the law and fails, he understands that he is a sinner in need of a Saviour: and this will lead him to Christ.

I say these things as a seed planted. You may not be able to receive them now, but I believe that the seed will sink down into your heart and germinate in due season in order that spiritual fruit may be produced in your life

Please give me an explicit example of how people in the OT established a "spiritual life" by hoping in the coming of Christ?

In Genesis 15:6, Abraham believed in the LORD and it was accounted to him for righteousness. God preached the gospel before to Abraham, saying, "In you all the families of the earth will be blessed."

King David understood that Messiah would not be kept down by hell and would never see corruption. There was revelation given in those days, is what I'm saying. Even Adam and Eve heard the gospel preached to them in the proto-evangelion of Genesis 3:15.

Not even the Prophets had a clear understanding of Christ!

There understanding was clear enough that they were able to put their faith in Him.

If the Prophets barely understood the circumstances about Christ's coming, how on earth would all of the saints of the OT exercise faith in Christ without focusing their obedience on the Law of God? It was the Law itself that gave rise to hope in a coming Messiah!

No; it was the word of the Lord. There is a difference.

As I said, you are misunderstanding Gal 3.21.

No, I am not. it says in that verse "life" not eternal life.

Again,

Gal 3:21, Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

This is speaking of the spiritual life that comes from being born again of the Holy Spirit through faith in Jesus Christ. It results in everlasting life. But this passage is clear that this kind of life doesn't come through law-keeping.

Tit 3:4, But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
Tit 3:5, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Tit 3:6, Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
Tit 3:7, That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

But you apparently just want to ignore the point that the "life" you refer to is the eternal life that Christ won in the NT.

It is taking about the spiritual life that comes from being born again of the Holy Spirit through faith in Jesus Christ and what He did for us on the Cross (see 1 Corinthians 15:1-4).

I'm talking about spiritual life that existed in the OT!

Only through faith in the coming Messiah.

That's ridiculous.

Apparently you didn't even look up the verses that I referenced (Galatians 3:10-13). Or you wouldn't have said that the concept is ridiculous. For who in their right mind calls a scriptural concept ridiculous, if they know that it is scriptural?

If you don't even look up the scriptures that I reference, I fear that you are not in a state of mind to be learning the truth. I would suggest having a more open mind to what the holy scripture has to say.

Again, the only way the law would ever be able to impart life would be if someone kept it perfectly from conception throughout their lives into eternity. This is a plain teaching of holy scripture. Now in 1 Corinthians 1:18 we find the concept that the preaching of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing; and therefore I am concerned for your soul. The good news is that God has chosen to save those who believe through the foolishness of preaching (1 Corinthians 1:21).

Walking in righteousness was never about walking in perfection,

Galatians 3:10, James 2:10, and Matthew 5:48 all show that if you are attempting to gain your righteousness through law-keeping, absolute perfection is what is required.

The Law directly provided for spiritual life in the time that adherents followed it.

No; because Galatians 3:21 says clearly that the law has no power to impart life.

You need to start understanding it.

I understand my New Testament quite well, thank you very much. Why don't you look at my commentary on the epistle of Paul to the Romans and find out?

Commentary on Romans.

The Law did, however, provide spiritual life when Israel obeyed the Law and received from God His approval.

Nope; because Galatians 3:21 tells us that the law is incapable of imparting spiritual life.

We must agree to disagree. Thanks for the discussion.

I guess I'm just one of those idiots who has to get in the last word...:cool:.

But I'm going to be praying for you; because if you actually think that you can have spiritual life from obeying the law, then I fear for your soul. I will leave you with this word:

Gal 2:15, We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,
Gal 2:16, Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Yes, the word of the Lord; just not based on a set of do's and don'ts that we follow in order to obtain spiritual life. Such an idea is foreign to the New Testament.
No, because the law is not of faith (Galatians 3:12).
I disagree (Galatians 3:12).
The purpose of the law is that it is a schoolmaster to lead men to Christ; through whom we can obtain life. No one can keep the law (Galatians 3:22, Galatians 6:13, Romans 3:23, 1 John 1:8). So faithful observance of the law is a moot point.

Your standard answer is Gal 3.22, which has already been answered.

Gal 3.21 Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. 22 But Scripture has locked up everything under the control of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.

As I've told you, Paul is using "righteousness" and "faith" as a shortcut for "eternal righteousness" and "eternal salvation." Obviously, one has righteousness under the Law. There's way too many Scriptures I could quote to prove it. Paul certainly understood it and said it. You just ignore it.

So what's Paul really saying? He's saying that *final righteousness* doesn't come through the Law! Final salvation isn't available under the Law! The completion of faith is not available under the Law. And that's because the Law was meant to lead to Christ!

And so, if righteousness was indeed available under the Law, then so was spiritual life available under the Law. You're just going to keep quoting Gal 3.

Most certainly the word of the Lord (Romans 10:17); just not based on keeping a set of do's and don'ts in order to "obtain spiritual life".

There is a difference between the word of the Lord, and the law. The law is a set of do's and don'ts that God set forth to show mankind that he is a sinner. When a man tries to obey the law and fails, he understands that he is a sinner in need of a Saviour: and this will lead him to Christ.

Here is another mantra of yours--the word of the Lord is not the Law! How untrue that is! The Law was in fact the word of the Lord!

Those do's and don't's were very important while that covenant remained in effect. Following those do's and don't's was everything as far as God Himself was concerned. For you to depreciate God's word in this way is wrong-headed, in my opinion.

In Genesis 15:6, Abraham believed in the LORD and it was accounted to him for righteousness. God preached the gospel before to Abraham, saying, "In you all the families of the earth will be blessed."

King David understood that Messiah would not be kept down by hell and would never see corruption. There was revelation given in those days, is what I'm saying. Even Adam and Eve heard the gospel preached to them in the proto-evangelion of Genesis 3:15.

And you call that "looking forward to Christ?" They knew almost nothing about him! It looked forward to Christ only in the sense they sought after eternal mitigation for their sins. They knew that whatever they could do would not be enough. For one little sin mankind had been banned from Eden and from life on earth itself. How could man be vindicated by doing righteousness when he still sins?

So God's people have always looked forward to final deliverance. And their hope has been based on the fact that God is still talking with them, still blessing their obedience. To say all this is worthless, that looking forward to Christ alone has value, completely undermines the truth and totally misunderstands what Paul is saying.

Gal 3:21, Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

This is speaking of the spiritual life that comes from being born again of the Holy Spirit through faith in Jesus Christ. It results in everlasting life. But this passage is clear that this kind of life doesn't come through law-keeping.

It is taking about the spiritual life that comes from being born again of the Holy Spirit through faith in Jesus Christ and what He did for us on the Cross (see 1 Corinthians 15:1-4).

You're missing the whole point! That's precisely what I'm saying, that Paul is speaking of eternal life, and of the spiritual life that comes *after* the cross! That spiritual life did *not* come through the Law! I fully admit that, and have been saying that all along!

What I'm saying, however, is that spiritual life and righteousness were still available *before the cross,* and came through obedience to the Law for Israel. That Law was *God's word* to Israel, and their obedience to it brought them spiritual life, though it did *not* bring them *eternal life.*

Only through faith in the coming Messiah.

Apparently you didn't even look up the verses that I referenced (Galatians 3:10-13). Or you wouldn't have said that the concept is ridiculous. For who in their right mind calls a scriptural concept ridiculous, if they know that it is scriptural?

You've buried the context. You insinuated that a person has to be *perfect* under the Law to achieve righteousness and life. That has never been the plan because we all know that since the fall of Adam all men have the sin nature, and cannot avoid sinning.

The Law was therefore never given by God to Israel to make them perfect, but rather, to goad them into spiritual maturity, where they regularly overcome their sinful tendencies. Sacrifices under the Law brought a temporary reprieve, but it was Christ's sacrifice that brought a permanent reprieve from our sins.

Nope; because Galatians 3:21 tells us that the law is incapable of imparting spiritual life.

Gal 2:15, We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,
Gal 2:16, Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

I *never* said I live under the Law! No, keeping the Law did bring Israel "life" while they were under that covenant.

Lev 18.5 Keep my decrees and laws, for the person who obeys them will live by them. I am the Lord.
Deut 28.1 If you fully obey the Lord your God and carefully follow all his commands I give you today, the Lord your God will set you high above all the nations on earth. 2 All these blessings will come on you and accompany you if you obey the Lord your God:
3 You will be blessed in the city and blessed in the country.

Psa 119.142 Your righteousness is everlasting and your law is true.

 

[justbyfaith]

Your standard answer is Gal 3.22, which has already been answered.

It has not.

As I've told you, Paul is using "righteousness" and "faith" as a shortcut for "eternal righteousness" and "eternal salvation." Obviously, one has righteousness under the Law. There's way too many Scriptures I could quote to prove it. Paul certainly understood it and said it. You just ignore it.

I can quote scriptures to show that you don't want a law-righteousness because it cannot save you. For example,

Gal 2:21, I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Phl 3:6, Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
Phl 3:7, But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
Phl 3:8, Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
Phl 3:9, And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

And so, if righteousness was indeed available under the Law, then so was spiritual life available under the Law. You're just going to keep quoting Gal 3.

If righteousness could come by the law then Christ is dead and in vain (Galatians 2:21). It is also true that Galatians 3:21 tells us that the law has no capability of imparting spiritual life.

Here is another mantra of yours--the word of the Lord is not the Law! How untrue that is! The Law was in fact the word of the Lord!

But not the other way around. The word of the Lord does not consist of only the law. It also consists of the doctrines of grace.

Jhn 1:17, For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

Those do's and don't's were very important while that covenant remained in effect. Following those do's and don't's was everything as far as God Himself was concerned. For you to depreciate God's word in this way is wrong-headed, in my opinion.

I don't think that you are even born again of the Holy Spirit, if you think that you can obtain spiritual life by keeping a set of do's and don'ts. Jesus is the only way in to salvation. Obeying the word of the Lord is the result of believing in Christ. Before that, any attempt to obey will come up short and will not avail to save anyone (or impart spiritual life to a man).

So God's people have always looked forward to final deliverance. And their hope has been based on the fact that God is still talking with them, still blessing their obedience. To say all this is worthless, that looking forward to Christ alone has value, completely undermines the truth and totally misunderstands what Paul is saying.

No; for Paul in his writings is exalting faith in Christ and making sure that you don't get mixed up and think that you can in any way obtain salvation through law-keeping. Because these things are in competition with each other as means of salvation. One of them works; the other one will fail every single time.

What I'm saying, however, is that spiritual life and righteousness were still available *before the cross,* and came through obedience to the Law for Israel.

Simply not true; for in Galatians 3:21 it says clearly that the law does not have the capability of imparting life.

That Law was *God's word* to Israel, and their obedience to it brought them spiritual life, though it did *not* bring them *eternal life.*

No; for in Galatians 3:21, spiritual life is in view; the kind of life spoken of in John 5:24, wherein we pass from death into life the moment we believe; and this is everlasting life as well as spiritual life. I say to you truly that everlasting life always comes from spiritual life and that spiritual life is the beginning of everlasting life: and that this does not come through keeping the law.

You've buried the context. You insinuated that a person has to be *perfect* under the Law to achieve righteousness and life. That has never been the plan because we all know that since the fall of Adam all men have the sin nature, and cannot avoid sinning.

Go ahead and read the context (again, the passage is Galatians 3:10-13). But I think you're starting to get the picture. The only way to be redeemed is to be forgiven of all your sins through the shed blood of Christ; and this does not come about through keeping a set of do's and don'ts; but only by faith.

The Law was therefore never given by God to Israel to make them perfect, but rather, to goad them into spiritual maturity, where they regularly overcome their sinful tendencies.

We can only become mature in studying the law if we already have faith in Christ. Some Israelites in those days did look forward to faith in Christ; but the majority didn't. Those who did were prophets; those who didn't persecuted the prophets (see Luke 11:49-51).

Lev 18.5 Keep my decrees and laws, for the person who obeys them will live by them. I am the Lord.

Again, look at how Paul interprets this scripture:

Gal 3:10, For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
Gal 3:11, But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Gal 3:12, And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
Gal 3:13, Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

Here is some other scripture that speaks similarily:

Jas 2:10, For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Mat 5:48, Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.