Typical questions people ask about the Olivet Discourse.

[TribulationSigns]

It was BOTH physical armies AND spiritual armies that were arrayed against Old Jerusalem in the AD 66-70 period.

False. You got wrong Jersualem.

Jerusalem became "a prison for every unclean spirit" (Rev. 18:2) during those tumultuous years when Jerusalem was besieged by both physical and spiritual armies fighting against it (and inside it as well).

Rev 18:1-5
(1) And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.
(2) And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
(3) For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
(4) And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
(5) For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.

The Lord did not talk about the physical city of Jersualem in the Middle East. But since you insisted it, let me ask you some questions:
1.) How did 70AD Jersualem "become" the habitation of devils, hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird?
2.) How did ALL nations in the world got drunk with 70AD Jersualem?
3.) Who were the kings of the earth that committed fornication with her in 70AD?
4.) Who were the merchants of the earth and how they get rich through Jersulaem in 70AD? What kind of rich is it?

Also if you still believe Babylon the Great of Revelation 18 in all context is Jersualem in 70AD then answer these questions:

5.) How did the kings of the earth mourn over a physical city in 70AD?
6.) How will the "one" hour of judgment fit in your faulty 70AD theory? What happens after the one hour of judgment ends?
7.) What are Jesualem's merchandise that no man can buy anymore yet why does the physical Jerusalem has this merchandise today?

Christ had already predicted a soon-coming onslaught of demonic oppression on His own first-century generation of fellow-Israelites.

False. Christ did NOT predict Roman Solider as "demonic oppression" against so-called first century generation.

During its "last state", there was going to be a seven-fold increase of more wicked demonic activity in Israel, making it worse than its "first state" when Christ had been among them, casting out devils in every city along with His disciples (Matthew 12:43-45).

Speculation and without biblical warrant.

The physical city of Old Jerusalem is designated as "the holy city" in Revelation simply to identify what used to be the "holy city". It is the scripture's use of a figure of speech called an "anachronism". There are many examples of this type of expression throughout the scriptures.

False. Again you got the wrong Jersualem. It is the New Testament congregation of Israel as a great city that will become the home of the devils (ie. false prophets and christs) near the end after Satan comes out of bottomless pit. Roman soldiers did not qualify.

 

[TribulationSigns]

The Roman army coming against Jerusalem was leading a multi-national coalition with auxiliary armies joined to the Roman legions. Josephus lists them in Wars 3.4.2 as coming from King Antiochus, Agrippa, and Sohemus, and the king of Arabia, as well as troops of horsemen from Syria. The Idumean nation also came against Jerusalem in that AD 66-70 period. Moreover, the competing Zealot factions with their various leaders which originated in "Galilee of the Gentiles" was a major factor in weakening Jerusalem's defenses, even before Titus arrived.

Ahh, you get the interpreations from Josephus. Surprise, surprise.

You are mistaking the meaning of the "days of vengeance" which God brought against Jerusalem and the Israelite people who had rejected, betrayed, and murdered His Son. Those "days of vengeance" against that particular first-century generation of Israelites were not prolonged into later generations, thousands of years down the road from then. "His blood be on us and our children" was a curse which God fulfilled in that first-century generation before it had passed away.

False. The days of vengeance will be God's judgment upon His unfaithful New Testament congregation because the Old Testament congregation was already judged at the Cross - not 70AD. Have you already forgotten that the kingdom representation was taken from them and God gave this to the church where Christ is NOW a cornerstone of the temple rebuilding?

Mat 21:42-45
(42) Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
(43) Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
(44) And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
(45) And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.

 

[Douggg]

You are not noticing these two Scriptures that are linked to the SAME timing...

Ezek 39:4
4 Thou shalt fall upon the mountains of Israel, thou, and all thy bands, and the people that is with thee: I will give thee unto the ravenous birds of every sort, and to the beasts of the field to be devoured.
KJV

Ezek 39:17-20
17 And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood.

Davy, there are 7 years verses 9-10 between Ezekiel 39:4 and Ezekiel 17-20.

The birds and beasts feast on the dead bodies in both events. But that does not make them the same event.

Ezekiel 39:17-20 corresponds to Revelation 19:17-18, the Armageddon event.

According to Lord Jesus in Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27, Lord Jesus showed His future coming to gather His saints is AFTER... the tribulation. So your guessing games really do not work.

The gathering of the elect in Matthew 24:31 is referring to gathering of the house of Israel in Ezekiel 39:28 - after the great tribulation, Armageddon, at Jesus's return, Second Coming - Ezekiel 39:21-29 .

Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

That phrase "from one end of heaven to the other" comes from Deuteronomy 30:3-5, in a promise to the children of Israel, if they get dispersed into the nations for not obeying God, but return to following God, that He will gather them back of the nation into the land of Israel again.

Deuteronomy 30:

3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.

4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:

5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.

 

[Douggg]

So what Lord Jesus said in Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 is the SAME event about His future coming and gathering of His Church that Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians 4!!!

Davy, you have made the same mistake as others holding the post-trib view of the rapture. The gathering of the elect in Matthew 24:31 is not referring to the rapture, but to the bringing back of all the scattered house of Israel from the nations back into the land of Israel. See my previous post #523 for the verses, about the gathering in Deuteronomy 30:3-5.

 

[Douggg]

Furthermore, per Revelation 16:15, Jesus speaking still to His Church on earth, He said He comes "as a thief", which is pointing to His future return and gathering of the Church AFTER the tribulation, and on the "day of the Lord" that both Paul and Peter said will come "as a thief in the night".

No, Revelation 16:15 is referring to persons who turn to Jesus after the rapture, to remain faithful to Him.

Revelation 16:15 is near the end of the great tribulation, and Jesus's sudden appearance as the sign of the Son of man in heaven will be unexpected.

The sudden appearance of the sign of the Son of man in heaven will occur as armies from the north, south, and east converge on the beast-king and his army in a prelude to Armageddon, in Daniel 11:40-45.

When the kings of the earth see the sign of the Son of Man in heaven, they will stop fighting, and unite under the beast-king, the false prophet, and Satan (indwelling the statue image of the beast-king at the time). And will assemble their armies at Armageddon to prepare to make war on Jesus.

 

[Douggg]

So with all your 75 years, HOW is it that you MISSED all that? It's clear that you have been listening to a 'system' of men's doctrines from the type churches you've been used to attending, when you should have been cracking open your Bible and heeding what God's Word actually says as written. So no way am I going to believe your 'rap' about saying you have done your homework in The Bible. You have not, which I am sorry to say since you are 75 years old, and you still need to get off the 'milk' bottle of men's doctrines of a false Pre-trib Rapture theory.

Stop with all the speculation. You know nothing about me. I have not said anything demeaning to you.

My rapture timing view is not pre-trib ( a misnomer, what is really meant is pre-seventieth week). Although the rapture could certainly happen per-seventieth week. I hold to a rapture view that I refer to as the anytime rapture view - with the rapture window shown in blue on my timing chart below....

 

[Douggg]

.

Here is my timeline chart of events for the 70th week. Just follow the red line from upper left to lower right for the sequence of events , with bible references given.

 

[Douggg]

NO, it won't happen 7 years prior to Jesus' return. That idea is NOT written anywhere in God's Word.

 

[Davidpt]

You have listened to men's doctrines trying to divide up the Ezekiel 39 chapter to suit their created doctrines. The Ezekiel 39:17-29 verses are about the SAME event, but only a deeper detail. There is only ONE Gog-Magog event for the end of this present time, not two, which is what you are actually saying.

You are not noticing these two Scriptures that are linked to the SAME timing...

Ezek 39:4
4 Thou shalt fall upon the mountains of Israel, thou, and all thy bands, and the people that is with thee: I will give thee unto the ravenous birds of every sort, and to the beasts of the field to be devoured.
KJV

Ezek 39:17-20
17 And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood.
18 Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan.
19 And ye shall eat fat till ye be full, and drink blood till ye be drunken, of My sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you.
20 Thus ye shall be filled at My table with horses and chariots, with mighty men, and with all men of war, saith the Lord GOD.
KJV


According to Lord Jesus in Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27, Lord Jesus showed His future coming to gather His saints is AFTER... the tribulation. So your guessing games really do not work.

Furthermore, per Revelation 16:15, Jesus speaking still to His Church on earth, He said He comes "as a thief", which is pointing to His future return and gathering of the Church AFTER the tribulation, and on the "day of the Lord" that both Paul and Peter said will come "as a thief in the night".

Paul in 1 Thess.5 said the "sudden destruction" upon those who will be saying, "Peace and safety" will happen on that "day of the Lord".

Peter in 2 Peter 3:10 said man's works are burned off this earth by God's consuming fire on that "day of the Lord" that will come "as a thief in the night".

Jesus said He comes "as a thief" in Rev.16:15.

Zechariah 14 shows Jesus' coming on that "day of the Lord", with His feet touching down upon the Mount of Olives east of Jerusalem, bringing all His saints with Him there.

So with all your 75 years, HOW is it that you MISSED all that? It's clear that you have been listening to a 'system' of men's doctrines from the type churches you've been used to attending, when you should have been cracking open your Bible and heeding what God's Word actually says as written. So no way am I going to believe your 'rap' about saying you have done your homework in The Bible. You have not, which I am sorry to say since you are 75 years old, and you still need to get off the 'milk' bottle of men's doctrines of a false Pre-trib Rapture theory.

Does this mean you agree that Ezekiel 39:9 and Ezekiel 39:12 fit at the beginning of the millennium? That's the only logical place I can see it fitting myself. Like you, I too agree that Ezekiel 39:4 and Ezekiel 39:17-20 are referring to the same events, not 2 diffrent events separated by 7 years. @Douggg indicated that he has studied the Bible 50 years, which should be plenty of time to have noticed that what the prophets in the OT have said in their accounts are not always in chronological order throughout every single time.

@Douggg has Ezekiel 39:17-20 involving someone neither ch 38 or 39 know anything about, otherwise he should be able to point out in Ezekiel 38 and 39 who verses 39:17-20 are being applied to if he disagrees that it is meaning these in Ezekiel 39:4.

 

[Davy]

Davy, there are 7 years verses 9-10 between Ezekiel 39:4 and Ezekiel 17-20.

No there aren't. That's just what you've been told. The seven years after the Gog-Magog battle is about the 'cleansing' of the land, not another prep period for another Gog-Magog battle. That's stupid to think there's 2 Gog-Magog battles in that Ezekiel 39 chapter. Your false Pre-trib Rapture doctors came up with your idea you are pushing, it is not your own, you didn't think of it. They created your idea to drum up more support for their false pre-trib rapture theory. You just don't know it yet.

 

[Davy]

Davy, you have made the same mistake as others holding the post-trib view of the rapture. The gathering of the elect in Matthew 24:31 is not referring to the rapture, but to the bringing back of all the scattered house of Israel from the nations back into the land of Israel. See my previous post #523 for the verses, about the gathering in Deuteronomy 30:3-5.

Another FALSE statement above by Douggg.

Like I had said, those on men's false Pre-trib Rapture theory REJECT what Jesus made very clear that His coming to gather His Church is AFTER... the tribulation, like He said in those Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 Scripture. And the FACT that what Jesus said there also aligns with the events covered by Apostle Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4 about His future coming and gathering of His Church, is even more... Biblical proof that Jesus comes to gather us AFTER the tribulation, and NOT prior to the trib like the false Pre-trib Rapture theory promotes.

 

[Davy]

No, Revelation 16:15 is referring to persons who turn to Jesus after the rapture, to remain faithful to Him.

Douggg is still... determined... to REJECT Lord Jesus' Own Words!

He is a perfect example of how deluded one can get by not keeping to God's Word as written line upon line. Brethren in Christ, that is what happens when one decides to listen to men's doctrines instead of keeping God's Word.

Rev 16:15-21
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

This is 6th Vial timing.
That is Lord Jesus STILL speaking to His Church on earth PRIOR to His future coming and gathering of His Church. That "I come as a thief" idea is the same... metaphor He used in Matthew 24 and Mark 13 about the day of His coming involving the faithful who WATCH. It points to the "day of the Lord" which will come "as a thief in the night" as being the day of His future return to gather His 'faithful' Church who wait for Him.

16 And He gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

That is about the previous 14th verse about the gathering of the kings of earth for the future battle on the last day of this world. That is when He will gather the Gog-magog alignment of nations that will come up against Jerusalem on the last day, and He will destroy them with hailfire and brimstone.

17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, "It is done."

That is the 7th Vial poured out, upon the earth? No! It is poured out into the "air". What's that about? It is about the END of this present world time; it is about the veil of the flesh being cast off by God's consuming fire burning man's works off the surface of the earth on that day of the Lord (2 Peter 3:10). On that day, the Heavenly dimension is going to be revealed to all. That is HOW even those who pierced Jesus will see Him coming in the clouds per Rev.1. And that is how the wicked on the 6th Seal will see God sitting upon His throne in Heaven when His cup of wrath is getting ready to be poured out upon them.

18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.

That will accompany the pouring out of that 7th Vial.

19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath.

That is the day of God's cup of wrath poured out upon the wicked, thus ending the time of "great tribulation" and the Babylon Harlot reign and its beast king.

20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

That is about God shaking this earth, "Yet once more", like Apostle Paul showed at the end of Hebrews 12. God said He will shake the earth yet once more, and not only the earth, but heaven also. His first original shaking of this earth was back when Satan first rebelled against Him in the old world before Adam.

21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.
KJV

That is the great hail mentioned in Ezekiel 38:21-22 that will happen upon the Gog-magog armies that come out of the northern quarters upon Israel on that last day of this world.

So ask yourselves brethren, why can't those on men's false Pre-trib Rapture theory cover Bible Scripture line upon line like the above, but instead always leave out verses that go against their theory? You should easily know their doing that is 'trickery', and a work from 'another spirit', and not from God or His Christ.

 

[Davy]

Stop with all the speculation. You know nothing about me. I have not said anything demeaning to you.

My rapture timing view is not pre-trib ( a misnomer, what is really meant is pre-seventieth week). Although the rapture could certainly happen per-seventieth week. I hold to a rapture view that I refer to as the anytime rapture view - with the rapture window shown in blue on my timing chart below....

Don't be deceived brethren...

When someone promotes a doctrine about the Church being raptured PRIOR to the "great tribulation", that IS... a pre-trib rapture theory, and is NOT written in God's Word.

That INCLUDES a Mid-trib rapture theory TOO! which mid-tribbers often are not aware.

An "anytime rapture view" IS... a doctrine from the Pre-trib Rapture theory, as it has other names too, like the "Any Moment" doctrine, or the "Imminent" doctrine that Jesus could return at anytime, etc. Douggg simply has not realized yet the false doctrine from men that he has latched onto.

They promote that 'anytime' idea so the deceived will more easily believe that Jesus raptures the Church prior to the "great tribulation", when no such idea is written. Jesus instead showed His coming to gather His Church is after... the tribulation, not prior to it.

About Mid-Trib Rapture Doctrines:
Some claim Jesus comes to rapture His Church at the Mid-point of the symbolic "one week" of Daniel 9:27. That symbolic "one week" there, the 70th week, represents a period of 7 years. In the 'middle' of that 7 years (or after the first 1260 day half), the coming false Messiah is to end the Jew's sacrifices and instead place an IDOL abomination at the temple in false worship. Some try to use the idea of a Mid-Trib Rapture, which is actually a very silly notion since the Mid-point of that 7 years is actually when the "great tribulation" time starts! And that means a false belief in a pre-tribulational rapture.

 

[Davy]

Here is my timeline chart of events for the 70th week. Just follow the red line from upper left to lower right for the sequence of events , with bible references given.

All the charts in the world are meaningless IF they do not keep to the Scriptures of God's Word. And I've already proven that your 'theories' you follow do NOT keep to God's written Word.

 

[Davy]

View attachment 43286

Anyone can create a chart and FALSELY CLAIM it follows Bible Scripture, and your's does not, but follows men's theories instead of keeping to written Scripture.

The destruction of the Gog-Magog army is to occur on the LAST DAY of this world, NOT prior to the time of "great tribulation".

And Christ's Church will... go through the "great tribulation" also.

Those who believe Christ comes to rapture the Church prior... to the "great tribulation" are those on man's false Pre-trib Rapture theory.

 

[Douggg]

When someone promotes a doctrine about the Church being raptured PRIOR to the "great tribulation", that IS... a pre-trib rapture theory, and is NOT written in God's Word.

Davy, the pre-trib rapture view is that the rapture will take place before the 7 year 70th week of Daniel 9:27 begins

Here are two charts. The first showing the pre-trib rapture view. The second chart showing the anytime rapture view.

 

[Douggg]

The destruction of the Gog-Magog army is to occur on the LAST DAY of this world, NOT prior to the time of "great tribulation".

What specific verse(s) in Ezekiel 38 and Ezekiel 39, does it say "the LAST DAY" ?

 

[Douggg]

16 And He gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

That is about the previous 14th verse about the gathering of the kings of earth for the future battle on the last day of this world. That is when He will gather the Gog-magog alignment of nations that will come up against Jerusalem on the last day, and He will destroy them with hailfire and brimstone.

Revelation 16:16, Armageddon is a the very end of the great tribulation, the most difficult period in man's history. You are claiming that the Gog/Magog event of Ezekiel 38-39 will take place then, correct ?

Here is proof right from the text of the bible that you are wrong.

Ezekiel 38:

10 Thus saith the Lord GOD; It shall also come to pass, that at the same time shall things come into thy mind, and thou shalt think an evil thought:

11 And thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of unwalled villages; I will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates,

Israel will be at rest, not in great tribulation, when Gog/Magog takes place. Gog/Magog cannot take place at any time during the great tribulation. Israel will be experiencing the worst time in its history during the great tribulation.

 

[Douggg]

This is 6th Vial timing.
That is Lord Jesus STILL speaking to His Church on earth PRIOR to His future coming and gathering of His Church. That "I come as a thief" idea is the same... metaphor He used in Matthew 24 and Mark 13 about the day of His coming involving the faithful who WATCH. It points to the "day of the Lord" which will come "as a thief in the night" as being the day of His future return to gather His 'faithful' Church who wait for Him.

So when do you think the rapture will take place relevant to Armageddon ? You think not before Armageddon ? Do you think on the day that Jesus descends to earth to stand on the mount of Olives ?

 

[Douggg]

@Douggg has Ezekiel 39:17-20 involving someone neither ch 38 or 39 know anything about, otherwise he should be able to point out in Ezekiel 38 and 39 who verses 39:17-20 are being applied to if he disagrees that it is meaning these in Ezekiel 39:4.

David, what you wrote is confusing. Try restating it.