I'm not assuming anything, that's why I'm asking the question.
What's your problem?
Are your fingers unable to type the word SIN in close proximity to the word ISRAEL?
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Typical questions people ask about the Olivet Discourse.
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What's your problem?
Are your fingers unable to type the word SIN in close proximity to the word ISRAEL?
Timtofly
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They will not have free will to follow Satan nor be deceived by Satan. Unless you are going by Isaiah 65, we have literally no clue what the Millennium will even be like.
Why make up stuff about the Millennium that we can deceive ourselves? What are we deceiving ourselves over? If we have black hair, will we deceive ourselves and tell every one we have red hair? Do we deceive ourselves on the clothing we will wear?
What does free will have to do with deception to begin with? Free will is the ability to make a decision without being coerced. Is God going to force us to wake up and go to sleep every day at the same exact time? Or do we have free will in our sleeping patterns?
Even in the Garden of Eden they had free will in whatever was available for them to do. They did not have free will to fly to the moon. At least as far as we know. You are looking at free will from the perspective of a sin nature and the bondage of sin, which in itself takes away our choices and freedom to choose. No one can coerce us to sin, and no one can coerce us not to sin. We just do so by nature. Even being punished for breaking the Law is not coercion. Punishment is hardly a deterrence to crime.
Being a pre-programmed robot would be the only way humans would not have free will. And that is part of the theory of determinism. Those who think God is 100% determistic, is misquoting: Romans 8:28
"And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose."
God is in control, but not deterministic.
One could argue that no matter how wicked one chose to be, in the end they could still do God's good and perfect will, because that was God's intended purpose. How could most of their life be selfish and sinful, but the last part be rewarded, or the last few hours? Moses is an example of being in God's perfect will and still exercised free will. However his disobedience, caused him to leave life behind instead of enjoying another 40 years in the Promised Land. Had he obeyed God, his life would have turned out differently. Was it God's purpose for Moses to be taken from the earth early? Or was the purpose to take Moses away like Elijah, and Moses had the free will to miss that chariot of fire?
The Millennium is not even about sin and death. It is about the removal of Adam's transgression 100%. There is only everlasting righteousness. Yet one still has the free will to disobey God, and end up dead, and removed from society permanently. Unlike Adam who lived in a state of death and passed that state down to all his offspring, when he disobeyed God. One who disobeys God, in the Millennium, will not live in a state of death, nor pass that down to their offspring. They will be removed from life and wait in Death until the GWT Judgment. There will be no living sinners on the earth.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
The problem with that, is that it contradicts Paul in Romans. The elect are the natural branches, so all of Israel were elect, until they were not.
The remnant are not those still on the tree. The remnant are those grafted back on to the tree. The fire did not burn the natural branches off of the tree. They were cast off because of unbelief. They were grafted back in because of accepting salvation. The remnant are those left at the end while the rest of the cut off branches are burned up. God chooses a third of Israel who are not part of the church and that choice places them back onto the tree. Not by their choice, but God's.
The Gentiles get a similar experience as wheat sown by Jesus, God Himself working on earth. The tares are the Gentiles burned up. The wheat are the Gentiles redeemed, not by their choice but by God's.
That is the final harvest after the Second Coming. The firstfruits of the final harvest really have no say in the matter. They are grafted into the tree, and their former life removed from their memories. God does not start from dust, to create the final harvest. God starts from humans not part of the church, and no one will know who they are until after they are chosen.
No one is accepting salvation and redemption to live on the earth. The point of faith was that heavenly country and city not of the earth. Hebrews 11:13-16
"These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city."
Those who reject the Millennium reign are missing the point that God also sets up life on earth to mirror life in heaven. But the church is not part of life on earth during the Millennium. Only after the Millennium will the church be "wed" with life on earth as the New Jerusalem on the earth. At that point the heavenly city descends to rest on the earth. There will be billions in the New Jerusalem as well as billions living on the earth. What happens then is anybody's guess.
Again, the people you mention are never subjected to an existential threat. Think about it.
No. Covenantee is not right. The term "elect" has more than one connotation depending on the context. In Matthew 24, Jesus is talking about an existential threat to the people whom God brought out of Egypt.
Ok, that’s my point, there is no true free will in a future millennium, limited will at best. Thanks for agreeing.
Have you ever seen the show Carbonaro Effect or Candid Camera? People being deceived is entertaining. Do people who are on these shows have the free will to prevent the deception prior to the deception being revealed? No, if people could prevent the deception they would do so and make themselves out to be astute. This is how deception and free will are linked.
Incidentally, I guess there won’t be any of this kind of entertainment happening in the millennium, it’s going to be more like boot camp where you get ruled with a rod of iron.
Was Peter a pre-programmed robot once he was told he would deny Jesus? If Peter could’ve used his free will to prevent the denial then Jesus tempted or tested God, Jesus would’ve taken the chance of making a false statement.
Peter’s will was that he would rather die than deny Jesus as he stated in Matthew 26:35. Here is a case where Peter didn’t have free will, he had to make the denial, which was against his will, else Jesus would’ve lied.
I wonder if Peter walked around like C-3PO or R2-D2?
Paul and Peter identify the Elect. They contradict you.
Romans 8:33
Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
Colossians 3:12
Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
Titus 1:1
Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;
1 Peter 1:2
Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
1 Peter 5:13
The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son.
The Church.
Whom to believe?
1. You
or
2. Paul and Peter.
Hint?
A question for you, since Bro. marks won't answer.
Numbers 25
9 And those that died in the plague were twenty and four thousand.
Explain why those 24,000 "chosen" ended up on the corpse pile.
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You have more than one connotation. Scripture doesn't.
The Elect are those faithful and obedient to God and His Son and His Covenant. It has always been thus.
No others.
TribulationSigns
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No, you don't even understand the context itself to begin with anyway.
Nope.
Mat 24:30-31
(30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
(31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
2Th 2:1-3
(1) Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
(2) That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
(3) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
God was not talking about gathering together of the ethnic Jews the people you claimed that God brought out of Egypt. Rather it is the Elect of New Testament congregations all over the world who will gather together on the last day at the Last Trump.
Learn to quote Scripture to support your nonsense next time, because all I see are speculations or assumptions based on your private interpreations without Scripture support whatsoever.
TribulationSigns,
You quoted Matthew 24:31 highlighting "from one end of heaven to the other". That phrase is taken from Deuteronomy 30:4.
(31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
That verse is talking about the Jews still remaining in the nations at Jesus's Second Coming. Jesus's Second Coming is in Ezekiel 39:21-29. Jesus is talking about the house of Israel in those verses.
Of that set of verses, In Ezekiel 39:28 is the gathering of Matthew 24:31
Ezeloe; 39:28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.
It is all based on a promise God made to the house of Israel that if they returned to Him as the Lord their God, He would gathered from the nations from when He scattered them. In Deuteronomy 30:3-6.
3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.
4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:
5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.
6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.
Your deflections. Israelites sinned, all men have sinned, you, I, all of us. Did you consider that in question? That somehow I thought otherwise?
And even so, Israel - the children of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob - was chosen as a nation from among the other nations. The Chosen Nation, Israel, and the Gentile Nations, all the others.
God directly addresses this question of, "But what about their sin??" in Jeremiah:
Jeremiah 31:35-37
(35) Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
(36) If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
(37) Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.
Obviously God doesn't mean if He Himself can measure heaven, or search out the foundations of the earth. I remember someone raising that as the fulfilling, that God can measure the heaven, therefore Israel could be cast out for their disobedience.
This is "the seed of Israel" being "a nation before God", that He will never cast out, regardless of what they do. The children of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
Much love!
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TribulationSigns
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You still have the wrong Jew and the wrong Israel in your faulty premillennial doctrine. Consider wisely:
Deu 30:3-6
(3) That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.
(4) If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:
(5) And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.
(6) And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.
This "circumcise of the heart" is a reminder from Romans 2 that only a True Jew, spiritually speaking, is one of the heart. NOT a blood one or ethnic Jew in the Middle East.
Rom 2:28-29
(28) For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
(29) But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
Who did Christ talk about here? All of the Elect from the Old Testament and the New Testament, scattered among the unsaved (gentiles/nations) are gathered together. THey may be either Gentile or Jew, but with heart circumcision in CHRIST ("thy seed"), they are spiritual Jews the Lord spoke about! Not about the gathering of ethnic Jews from all nations to a literal nation called Israel in the Middle East that you thought was the literal land that was promised to Abraham.
Heb 11:8-10
(8) By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
(9) By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
(10) For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
What foundations? A literal foundations in the Middle East, or spiritual foundations? Consider wisely:
Eph 2:19-22
(19) Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
(20) And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
(21) In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
(22) In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
Not a literal building in the Middle East but spiritual habitation through Jesus Christ, thy seed. This is WHERE the promised land is, spiritually speaking. It is a better country where Abraham is now with Christ. This is where we, Elect, will be gather together there.
Heb 11:13-18
(13) These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
(14) For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
(15) And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
(16) But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
(17) By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,
(18) Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:
This is the seed talked about in Deu 30:6 talked about! It is a spiritual promised land that we all will receive through Christ. Not gathering Jews only back into a physical land in the Middle East. This is why you got the wrong Jews and the wrong Israel to begin with. The Old Testament about the Jews in the "promised land" is only a type pointing to the true promised land where Christ shall gather all spiritual Jews, whether they were Jew or Gentile on Earth, together to a better country which is HEAVENLY. Not earthly.
Who was taken captive into the nations in Luke 21:24 ? That is who will be gathered back to the land of Israel in Matthew 24:31.
Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
Of course. And their sin brought God's judgment upon them. They weren't elect after God slew them.
The elect were those who continued in faith and obedience to God and His Covenant.
They lived.
TribulationSigns
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Both the Preterists and Premillennialists believe that the Olivet Discourse is talking about national Israel, Jews or physical city of Jersualem in the Middle East, whether in 70AD or post-1948, but that was NOT what Christ prophesied about. He was talking about His New Testament Congregation prior to Second Coming, after He have finished building His Church through the testimony of Two Witnesses. You need to remember that the building of New Testament congregation involved both the Chosen Elect (Gold, Silver and Precious Stones) and the Professed Christians (wood, hay stubble). In the end time, Luke 21:24 talks about the Judgment upon the unfaithful church where the professed Christians will be deceived by the false prophets and christs that caused them to be lead away into spiritual bondage like the Gentiles (unsaved of the world). Remember, "Many are called, few are chosen?" God brought both Elect and professed Christians into the church for the past 2,000 years, working together to build the church (aka, wheats and the tares) until after all Elect are secured, Revelation 7:1-4. THEN at this time of the end, during the Great Tribulation, Satan is loosened and now works through false prophets and christs who are coming into the congregation to deceive the people but were told by God that they only can harm or deceive those who have NOT YET SEALED by God, Revelation 9:3-6. This is why after have secured all Elect in the Church, God will give up the "court without the temple" to the False prophets and CHrists to be deceived as a judgement for unfaithfulness, even if they think they are serving God in the Church. They cannot see themselves being judged which is why they cannot see the true signs of Christ's return. Christ will return after the judgment of the unfaithful church, Babylon the Great, is finished.
Revelation 1:1-2
(1) And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
(2) But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
Again, people in the court which is without the temple means that they are not saved. Not sealed. Not having a relationship with Christ. They are only professed Christians. Becuase they were "protected" from Satan's reach for the past 2,000 years until the building of the church is FINISHED first! Then they will deceived and be lead away captive into all nations (spiritual gentiles) by being in spiritual bondage. Not taking them out and sending them away to some physical nations all over the world, literally.
Selah!
Spiritual Discerned, my friend.
Luke 21:20-24 is talking about the Jews, the 70 ad event. They are the ones scattered into the nations, and they are ones who will gathered back to the land of Israel in Matthew 24:31 and Ezekiel 39:28. at Jesus's Second Coming.
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