Two particular problems with dispensationalism...

[Naomi25]

Would you mind telling me why YOU think the end times knowledge is important? Why should I be interested in this?

We have problems in my family too, including an autistic 17 year old granddaughter. There's enough for today, why would I want to study up about tomorrow??

Well...two reasons, I suppose...one of which I've already given you. If it's in the bible at all, then I must assume God wants us to study it, as he wants us to study all of his word. Sure, it might be a periphery doctrine (not essential to salvation...or even to every day life), but he clearly wants us aware of it...why else put it in there? It it was unimportant, or he didn't intend for us to have even a small idea about it, he wouldn't have inspired the writers to put those bits in, would he?

The second reason is...life is hard. I don't know anyone who would deny that. But just speaking for myself, I see eschatology, both general and personal (general would mean what happens to the world at the end, and personal is more what happens to each individual at their end), as a promise from God that this will not always be. Romans 8:18-25, if you will. There is no greater encouragement to know that one day, Christ will roll back the sky and end everything that brings sin and sorrow in this world.
There's more to life than just driving. We're going somewhere. Don't you want to have some idea about how? Don't you want to know what God says it will be like? When we go on holidays, we usually know where we want to end up. But we don't just jump in the car and start driving, hoping we'll make it there. We get directions. And usually we've done our research about what the place is like...we already know we want to be there and what attractions are going to be there! The bible certainly doesn't tell us everything about how the world will come to an end, or what heaven and the new earth will be like. Or where we'll go in the mean time after our deaths....but it gives us enough information that it really behooves us to study it and to have an idea about it.

Anyway...that's what I think. But I know plenty who disagree. And like I said, it's not an essential doctrine, so it's really not an issue that should divide. And I'm pretty sure that those who don't have an idea about it, or study it, will still end up where they're supposed to! I just like the anticipation, is all....I suppose that's what it really boils down to.

 

[Naomi25]

To try and answer your questions is to work from the middle and go out to both ends. Wrath is wrath. But if the wrath of God has been established as to a certain period of time we call the Tribulation, then depending on how it is used, it can speak to the Tribulation. Start from the beginning to establish a Tribulation first. That is the only way to answer your questions.

As I mentioned in post #44, (Deut. 4:23-31) is the place to start. Are we not talking about the nation of Israel here? Has Moses not prophecied tribulation upon an unbelieving and disobedient Israel and a promise of God's mercy when she returns.

Stranger

So...let me see if I understand you correctly here (sorry if I'm being a little slow!). You're saying that before we can determine if God is pouring out his wrath in the Tribulation, we first need to establish if there will be a Tribulation period at the end. And if there is, then that period of time has to be for some purpose. Presumably, I guess you're saying, for dealing with the "unbelieving and disobedient Israel". In which case it could be quite appropriate that God is pouring out a very specific sort of wrath....

Is that right? Because if that's what you're saying, it's a good point, and I'll need to chew on it a bit. It's like you say, it does then come down to interpretation. Because at this point one could still hold to a form of Amillennialism and see a place for a seven year period at the end in scripture. But if we're talking a very specific cause for those 7 years...for the Jews...then we are indeed getting into the Dispensational interpretation....

But that's good. Because it helps me see the change in thinking...about the Tribulation and about the "wrath" issue. I'll certainly think on it, thanks.

 

[Stranger]

So...let me see if I understand you correctly here (sorry if I'm being a little slow!). You're saying that before we can determine if God is pouring out his wrath in the Tribulation, we first need to establish if there will be a Tribulation period at the end. And if there is, then that period of time has to be for some purpose. Presumably, I guess you're saying, for dealing with the "unbelieving and disobedient Israel". In which case it could be quite appropriate that God is pouring out a very specific sort of wrath....

Is that right? Because if that's what you're saying, it's a good point, and I'll need to chew on it a bit. It's like you say, it does then come down to interpretation. Because at this point one could still hold to a form of Amillennialism and see a place for a seven year period at the end in scripture. But if we're talking a very specific cause for those 7 years...for the Jews...then we are indeed getting into the Dispensational interpretation....

But that's good. Because it helps me see the change in thinking...about the Tribulation and about the "wrath" issue. I'll certainly think on it, thanks.

Well, at this stage is Dispensational interpretation the issue? In (Deut. 4:23-31) is not the nation Israel being addressed? Is not tribulation and repentance promised to Israel in the latter days?

Are we not told that the nation Israel will turn away from God? (Deut. 31:16-17) "And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them. Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them...."

(Deut. 31:16:29) "For I know that after my death ye will utterly corrupt yourselves, and turn aside from the way which I have commanded you; and evil will befall you in the latter days; because ye will do evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger through the work of your hands."

Just to repeat, at this stage, do you not agree that Israel is being addressed?

Stranger

 

[bbyrd009]

Thanks for response.
I thought that we all worship Jesus as the Glorified Lord!

What I have more problem with is people who still 'worship' Jesus as the human man with long hair, sandals. He was only here for 33 years, He IS the glorified Lord...
But you seem to see things differently...and I don't understand yet. ??

well, from your statement it seems you do, i guess? I dunno if it has to do with our ability to compartmentalize or what, but obv if Jesus is still repped on the cross in one's mind then they are not worshipping a risen Lord i guess. A good example came to me last night, about how i guess it is hard to see how believing that one has no works to do here ("faith" alone, that is actually "belief" alone) goes with "worshipping" Jesus, and believing that Jesus' death covers your sins somehow, essentially a belief in "You do not reap what you sow if you worship Jesus." which i guess ol' Esaias is repping right below your post prolly

but see they will not discuss the Two Greeks, or the Manna Stored for Tomorrow, doesn't want to contemplate Son of Man for it's symbolic meaning, demonstrably does not pick up his cross, speaks as Oracle, etc etc, no offense

 

[bbyrd009]

I thought that we all worship Jesus as the Glorified Lord!

then how can "many be deceived, even the elect?"

GG has even stated--honestly--that Nehushtan worship seems right! Now i'm sure God judges ppl differently--just like we do--and it is their heart that matters, but do you want to get your doctrine--method of living--from a Nehushtan worshipper, who shares only your language? Not condemning anyone as such here, as i do not know anyone here IRL ok.

We are in forum to talk about these, and fwiw i would certainly never accuse anyone of Nehushtan worship IRL; i just accept that most believers Look To Jesus on the Cross to Relieve Them of their Snakebit Condition, bc picking up your cross and following is, well, a lot of work. This is what keeps the ersatz "faith/works" debate alive, imo

 

[bbyrd009]

"He sees things different cause he is an idiot."

see, why follow when you can worship, and praise, and light candles to Jesus, metaphorically, without picking up your cross?

the convo about how Jesus is going to come and do something else that He needs to do before "we" can all be "saved" for reals should be commencing here any second imo.

we go right from the past--crucifixion--to the future, and prognostication, about vain imaginings, Rapture, etc, anything to stay out of right now iow

101, GG, where you guys at on those replies up there, btw? Esias is married to his beliefs, so i guess he is just pissed, what about you guys

 

[bbyrd009]

"He sees things different cause he is an idiot."

and you better believe that you are perceived the same way, see, the minute you stop worshipping Stranger

 

[pia]

How can one walk with the Lord when rejecting that which God the Father revealed to the Son and Jesus Christ in turn revealed to John for us?

How can anyone claim to be walking with The Lord and still refuse His actual reality and ability to teach us anything what so ever we ask......Never did He say to go by what others had written, but rather to follow after Him with His Holy Spirit being our teacher and guide...Present tense !

 

[pia]

we go right from the past--crucifixion--to the future

Exactly ! People forget that " TODAY, if you HEAR His voice, do not turn away.".....so whatever happened to today ? It updates itself each and every day...

 

[Naomi25]

Well, at this stage is Dispensational interpretation the issue? In (Deut. 4:23-31) is not the nation Israel being addressed? Is not tribulation and repentance promised to Israel in the latter days?

Are we not told that the nation Israel will turn away from God? (Deut. 31:16-17) "And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them. Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them...."

(Deut. 31:16:29) "For I know that after my death ye will utterly corrupt yourselves, and turn aside from the way which I have commanded you; and evil will befall you in the latter days; because ye will do evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger through the work of your hands."

Just to repeat, at this stage, do you not agree that Israel is being addressed?

Stranger

Well, interpretation could still matter. If looking at these passages from an Amil perspective, one could say that they had seen probable fulfilment in 70AD...or even several times before then...but we'll say 70AD, since the NT times are considered by most to be the beginning of the "end times" (1 John 18, Acts 2:16).

However, putting that aside...I do believe that when the OT speaks of the "latter days" it is often speaking of the actual last days, so looking at the passage with that in mind, it is possible this passage is talking about the time of Tribulation at the end...the 7 year Tribulation, and of the Jews.

I'm still trying to re-orient my thinking here...it's harder than I thought. May I ask you another question that might help me out here with this particular issue? In this respect...we're talking about Israel, and that fact that clearly the Deut passage is talking to the Jews, do we as new Covenant believers take anything from the OT except a history lesson? And I don't mean that disrespectfully. The OT is full of important, rich, true history that points towards man's brokenness and our need for the coming Savior, so it's invaluable. But is there any part of it where we can go "that's particularly relevant for me now"....or are to just assume that all the bits that talk of the future are only addressed to the Israeli nation?

 

[Stranger]

Well, interpretation could still matter. If looking at these passages from an Amil perspective, one could say that they had seen probable fulfilment in 70AD...or even several times before then...but we'll say 70AD, since the NT times are considered by most to be the beginning of the "end times" (1 John 18, Acts 2:16).

However, putting that aside...I do believe that when the OT speaks of the "latter days" it is often speaking of the actual last days, so looking at the passage with that in mind, it is possible this passage is talking about the time of Tribulation at the end...the 7 year Tribulation, and of the Jews.

I'm still trying to re-orient my thinking here...it's harder than I thought. May I ask you another question that might help me out here with this particular issue? In this respect...we're talking about Israel, and that fact that clearly the Deut passage is talking to the Jews, do we as new Covenant believers take anything from the OT except a history lesson? And I don't mean that disrespectfully. The OT is full of important, rich, true history that points towards man's brokenness and our need for the coming Savior, so it's invaluable. But is there any part of it where we can go "that's particularly relevant for me now"....or are to just assume that all the bits that talk of the future are only addressed to the Israeli nation?

Amillennial or Dispensational interpretation would matter if you want to jump to the question of fulfillment of these passages in Deuteronomy. But, to do that, we move from a time when Israel was preparing to come into the land to at least your time of 70 A.D. And I wasn't trying to argue that at this time. I was just trying to establish in the historical setting the reality of a Tribulation period and eventually its duration of 7 years.

God has wrought out His work of Salvation in the movement of history. And is still working it out. The whole Old Testament is for our benefit to learn of this great salvation and learn something of God Himself. As far as relevance, I believe it is all relevant for the Church. Just because I see a distinction between the Church and Israel, does not mean the Old Testament has no relevance for me. The whole Old Testament is about Jesus Christ. (Luke 24:27,44-45) How is my learning about Jesus Christ not relevant?

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

How can anyone claim to be walking with The Lord and still refuse His actual reality and ability to teach us anything what so ever we ask......Never did He say to go by what others had written, but rather to follow after Him with His Holy Spirit being our teacher and guide...Present tense !

Who refuses His actual reality and ability to teach us?

(Matt. 4:4,7,10) "It is written"

(Rev. 1:19) "Write the things which thou has seen,and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;"

Stranger

 

[bbyrd009]

Exactly ! People forget that " TODAY, if you HEAR His voice, do not turn away.".....so whatever happened to today ? It updates itself each and every day...

ha well you aren't going to get very pop around believers with that attitude i guess lol. The only thing you share is a lexicon imo

 

[pia]

Who refuses His actual reality and ability to teach us?

(Matt. 4:4,7,10) "It is written"

(Rev. 1:19) "Write the things which thou has seen,and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;"

Stranger

Sorry mate, I can't do this with you any longer....We've been through this dance more than once....Each of us are responsible for our own lives before God, so I will stick to what I have been told, thank you....I would be insane not to...

 

[pia]

ha well you aren't going to get very pop around believers with that attitude i guess lol. The only thing you share is a lexicon imo

Not even sure what that means....But surely none of us are in this to be popular ? That's silly....

 

[Truth]

Amillennial or Dispensational interpretation would matter if you want to jump to the question of fulfillment of these passages in Deuteronomy. But, to do that, we move from a time when Israel was preparing to come into the land to at least your time of 70 A.D. And I wasn't trying to argue that at this time. I was just trying to establish in the historical setting the reality of a Tribulation period and eventually its duration of 7 years.

God has wrought out His work of Salvation in the movement of history. And is still working it out. The whole Old Testament is for our benefit to learn of this great salvation and learn something of God Himself. As far as relevance, I believe it is all relevant for the Church. Just because I see a distinction between the Church and Israel, does not mean the Old Testament has no relevance for me. The whole Old Testament is about Jesus Christ. (Luke 24:27,44-45) How is my learning about Jesus Christ not relevant?

Stranger

If you had believed Moses you would believe ME, but you don't believe Moses so you don't believe ME, for He wrote of Me! the old testament has more to do with us than it did for them. we need to understand what God said! These 10 times they have Tried me, we need to look at what these 10 times were, and try to learn from them!!

 

[Truth]

Not even sure what that means....But surely none of us are in this to be popular ? That's silly....

Eventualy we will be hated for what we hold to, for His Namesake???? They hated Him so you know!!

 

[mjrhealth]

Who refuses His actual reality and ability to teach us?

(Matt. 4:4,7,10) "It is written"

(Rev. 1:19) "Write the things which thou has seen,and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;"

Stranger

Funny how Jesus said according to teh bible,

Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Joh 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

and here we have christians with no life because they wont go to the one who is life,

Joh_6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
Joh_6:48 I am that bread of life.

 

[mjrhealth]

Eventualy we will be hated for what we hold to, for His Namesake???? They hated Him so you know!!

would never of guessed..

 

[pia]

Eventualy we will be hated for what we hold to, for His Namesake???? They hated Him so you know!!

That is so true, but what surprises me the most, is that a lot of the 'hate' comes from people who say they are Christians....just have a good look at some of the writings here on the forum, enough to make a grown ,man cry lol....