True or False, Satan is doing exactly what God intended him to do.

[FaithWillDo]

Yes.

Lucifer must have changed names after the fall.

Dear Space_Karen,
A dear brother in Christ (Ray Smith) wrote a short paper exposing the lie about "Lucifer". Here is a part of that paper which teaches why the name Lucifer is not even in scripture:

WHO OR WHAT IS 'LUCIFER?'

This next verse is where theologians believe God stops speaking of the King of Babylon and begins speaking of the origin of Satan. What pray tell, does the end of the King of Babylon have to do with the beginning of Satan? Really nothing, but let's check out their hypothesis anyway, as it is believed by the Church worldwide.

"How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How art thou cut down to the ground, which did weaken the nations"! (Ver. 12).

Notice that back in verse 4 God says to take up this proverb against the "king of Babylon." Next let's pick up this proverb in verse 10 after all the "trees" (different people which feared the king), are at rest because of the king's demise, and see if this "Lucifer theory" fits into these verses without doing irreparable damage to the kings English:

"All they shall speak and say unto thee [king of Babylon], Art thou [king of Babylon] also become weak as we? Art thou [king of Babylon] become like unto us [mere mortals and not gods from heaven]. Thy [king of Babylon] pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy [king of Babylon] viols: the worm is spread under thee [king of Babylon], and the worms cover thee [king of Babylon]. How art thou [king of Babylon] fallen from heaven, O Lucifer..."?!?

What is this? How can, the king of Babylon, the king of Babylon, the king of Babylon, the king of Babylon, the king of Babylon, the king of Babylon, the king of Babylon, the king of Babylon (made reference to eight time in two sentences), suddenly turn into "Lucifer" in the middle of a sentence? And where are we ever told that "Lucifer" is a proper name for Satan?

So just where did this proper name, "Lucifer" suddenly appear from in the middle of this sentence? Is "Lucifer" a proper name? Is it even a noun? Is "Lucifer" another name for the king of Babylon? Is "Lucifer" an English word? Is there a Hebrew word that can be translated "Lucifer?"

I am going to shine some LIGHT on this "O Lucifer, son of the morning star" business, and we can all watch Lucifer disappear in the dawn's early light. It is but another heresy from the Dark Ages that crept into the hallowed halls of the Church. This is a little lengthy, but it is also one of the most intriguing bits of deception your will ever see exposed, so I will take the time to debunk it.

THE UNTOLD ORIGIN OF 'LUCIFER'

From my American Heritage College Dictionary, Lucifer n. 1. The archangel cast from heaven for leading the revolt of the angels; Satan. < OE, morning star, Lucifer < Latin Lucifer < lucifer, light-bringer: lux, luc-, light" (page 821).

The very next word under "Lucifer" is, luciferase n. An enzyme that catalyzes the oxidation of luciferin." Hmmmmm. What have we here? "Lucifer + in."

And the word that follows "luciferase" in this same dictionary is: " luciferin n. A chemical substance present in the cells of bioluminescent organisms, such as fireflies that produce a bluish-green light when oxidized. [Latin Lucifer, light-bringing; see LUCIFER + -IN.]" (page. 821).

There it is! Lucifer is the "chemical bioluminescence' in the cells of FIREFLIES! WOW! With that in mind, we should all sleep better tonight.

LUCIFER IS A CHRISTIAN HOAX

And so what do fireflies have to do with the King of Babylon or Satan the devil? Nothing, absolutely nothing. Was Satan once a "light-bringing firefly"? No, no he wasn't. Then how in the world did we get this Latin word "lucifer" as part of Isa. 14:12, in so many English Bibles?

First, just who was it that fell from heaven, and does the phrase "fallen from heaven" prove that this person had to have been in God's throne room, or at least in interstellar space in order for him to "fall from heaven" therefore proving that this must be a spirit being only? No, of course not. It is a figure of speech. Here is proof from none other than Jesus:

"And you, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shall be thrust down [from heaven] to hell [Gk: hades]" (Luke 10:15).

So here we have a whole city being thrown down from heaven to hades, their grave. And so it is with the King of Babylon whose "pomp is brought down to the grave" (Isa. 14:11). These two Scriptures are exact parallel thoughts.

Now then, back to "lucifer." Just what is the Hebrew word found in the manuscripts that the translators turned into the Latin word Lucifer? It is very interesting. All of you with a Strong's Concordance, look up this word Lucifer. Right after the word Lucifer we are given a definition before we ever go to the Dictionary to find the meaning. Here is what you will find: Lucifer (lu'sif-ur){1} Title applied to king of Babylon.

Clearly the editor of Strong's Concordance realized that this word (whatever it means) is to be applied to the "king of Babylon," and NOT TO SATAN THE DEVIL!

We are told that the word in question is Strong's #1966 which is heylel, from 1984 [halal] (in the sense of brightness); the morning-star:--Lucifer.

What a web of deceit is woven in this "light-bringing-brightness-morning-star-Lucifer" theory. This word "Lucifer" appears no other place in Scripture. Was Satan ever spoken of as a "light-bringing perfect archangel"? No. What saith the Scriptures?

"And no marvel; for Satan himself is TRANSFORMED into an angel of light" (II Cor. 11:14).

Satan is NOT an angel of light, neither has he ever been! It is the "false apostles, DECEITFUL workers" Ver 13, that DECEIVE people into believing lies. Satan appears as an angel of light to the world; he is transformed into an angel of light, but it is an illusion, it is not true, it is a deception!

Paul expels any such theory that Satan knows anything about "light":

"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against power, against the RULERS OF THE DARKNESS of this world" (Eph. 6:12).

Rev. 16:10 is but the continuation of the same Babylonian beast that we read about in Isa. 14:

"and the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast [Babylon] and his kingdom was FULL OF DARKNESS..."

So what is this heylel/halal of Isa. 14:12? Here is the problem—too many translations of previous translations without checking the Hebrew manuscripts first.

Lucifer is the Latin Vulgate translation of the word "xosphoruos" in the Septuagint, which is a Greek version of the Hebrew of Isaiah 14:12, which the King James translators then translated over into the English as "Lucifer."

The Latin and the Greek, as well as a supposed form of a "Hebrew" word in verse 12 mean "bright shiner" or "shining one." The problem is, however, that Isa.14:12 was not written in Latin or Greek, but Hebrew. And I assure you that "lucifer" is not a Hebrew word, nor is it an English translation of a Hebrew word. Lucifer is Latin, and is related to a group of Latin derived English words including lucid, luciferin and luciferose, as we saw defined above, all of which suggest brightness or shining. Likewise xosphoros in the Greek derived English words such as, fluorescence and phosphorescence.

But, there seems to be no Hebrew or Aramaic text in which there is a word in this verse to correspond. What we find in all such texts is the word "hehlehl,' eill, which is a form of the Hebrew stem "yah-lahl," ill. And what is the meaning of "ill"? Are you ready? It means HOWL. That's right, "Lucifer" turns out to be nothing more than a "howl" (maybe of "hot air')!

It has been suggested that the translators of the Septuagint (Hebrew into Greek) could have overlooked the smallest of the Hebrew letters or been using a copy in which it had been inadvertently omitted. Thus if the form of the world eill, as it occurs in this particular text, were shortened to ell its meaning would be derived from a different root, in fact would be itself a different root, and the sense given in the Septuagint and the Vulgate would be at least understandable, with one giant exception. There is still absolutely no reason or rule of grammar for turning this word into a personal name! It could possibly mean "a shining one," but not a personal name such as "Lucifer." Doubtless the translators followed the Vulgate as they did in most of their translating.

Even such an eminent translator as Rotherham seemed to follow the Septuagint in this verse, however, from his comments within parenthesis, it is clear that he was fully aware of the fact that whatever this word meant, it was referring to none other than the context of these verses which is Babylon and not Satan:

"How has thou (Babylon—see context) fallen from heaven, O Shining One (O howl)—Son of the Dawn! (Babylon conspicuous as Venus). Hewn down to the earth, O crusher of nations."

Clearly the reference is to Babylon and none other. It was Babylon which was exalted to heaven (as conspicuous as Venus, the brightest star of the morning) in her wealth, power, and glory. Yet just as Capernaum, God says she is brought down to the earth, the one who was a "crusher of nations."

 

[Behold]

When Adam and Eve sinned, they did so because it was planned and caused by God for it to happen.

Eve was even shown to be carnally mind before she sinned:

This teaching is some type of warper hyper calvinism, and its a definite offense to God.

And that you cut and paste all this from some bizarre teaching, is pretty sad.

You've tried to prove that because God KNEW what Adam and Eve and Lucifer would do......is proof that God caused it.
This is the "error of Calvinism", as Calvin could never understand ,and died not understanding that "Foreknowledge" is not God causing, its God KNOWING before it happens, what will happen.

Also, to say that Eve was carnal before she sinned is a misrepresentation of Truth., again.
What the OT teaches is that she was Tempted into her thought and eventual free wil choice.

4 “You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. 5 “For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

 

[FaithWillDo]

This teaching is some type of warper hyper calvinism, and its a definite offense to God.

And that you cut and paste all this from some bizarre teaching, is pretty sad.

You've tried to prove that because God KNEW what Adam and Eve and Lucifer would do......is proof that God caused it.
This is the "error of Calvinism", as Calvin could never understand ,and died not understanding that "Foreknowledge" is not God causing, its God KNOWING before it happens, what will happen.

Also, to say that Eve was carnal before she sinned is a misrepresentation of Truth., again.
What the OT teaches is that she was Tempted into her thought and eventual free wil choice.

4 “You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. 5 “For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

Dear Behold,
Your understanding is not taught in scripture. It comes from the spirit of anti-Christ who has deceived and devoured the church. Since the time of Paul's departing, the church has become apostate. No Elect believer since that time has been spared from Satan's destruction.

Acts 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

1John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that (the spirit of) antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

For that reason, when Christ "comes again" to one of His Elect to convert them, He comes as a thief in the night because the Elect believer has fallen away and is dwelling in the darkness of Satan:

1Thes 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

You said:
And that you cut and paste all this from some bizarre teaching, is pretty sad.

The teaching which I present comes from my own study of scripture which I present on my website: www.greatmysteryofchrist.com. I do not cut and paste teachings from other converted believers without giving them the proper credit.

You said:
Also, to say that Eve was carnal before she sinned is a misrepresentation of Truth., again.
What the OT teaches is that she was Tempted into her thought and eventual free wil choice.

Adam and Eve were created spiritually marred (Jer 18:4) and subject to vanity (Rom 8:20). The flaw in mankind's spiritual nature is that it is weak. Because it is weak, the physical body God gave us is able to govern our spiritual nature, making it carnal. Then, in turn, our carnal nature gives us a carnal mind. It is mankind's carnal mind that causes us to sin and sin often.

Eve was carnally minded prior to her sinning and for that reason, she sinned:

Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food (LUST OF THE FLESH), and that it was pleasant to the eyes (LUST OF THE EYES), and a tree to be desired to make one wise (PRIDE OF LIFE), she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

Mankind has no free will ability to behave differently from the way Eve did. If we did, the Law of Moses would have been sufficient to save us from our sinning ways. However, it could not because mankind is spiritually marred.

The only person to have ever lived who never sinned was Christ. The reason He never sinned was because He never developed a carnal mind. And the reason He never developed a carnal mind was because Christ had a different spiritual nature than the one God gave to Adam and Eve. Christ's spiritual nature came from the full measure of the Holy Spirit within Him. With this Spirit, Christ had "power" rather than "weakness". As a result, Christ NEVER allowed His body of flesh to govern Him. Because of this truth, Christ was willing to die rather than to disobey His Father. Mankind has no such ability.

To be saved, mankind must spiritually die and be reborn with the same Holy Spirit which Christ was given by His Father. Only then will mankind never sin again.

To accomplish mankind's conversion, the Father sent Jesus Christ to do this spiritual work within all mankind.

1John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.

In this age, Christ is only saving the people who have been chosen from the foundation of the world to be First Fruits of His harvest. They are said to be "blessed".

In the final age, Christ will continue His saving work and will bring in the remaining harvest of mankind.

To be converted, mankind must spiritually die. This death is necessary for salvation and it is accomplished by the judgment of Christ. Mankind's marred spirit must be destroyed and replaced with the Holy Spirit. This is what these three verses below are teaching:

Mat 26:52 Then said Jesus unto him, put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

Isa 66:16 For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.

John 12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

To be converted, we must die. All the death and destruction that comes from the judgment of Christ is for the purpose of saving us and not for the purpose of causing us to perish (the penalty of sin).

Isa 1:27 Zion shall be redeemed with judgment, and her converts with righteousness.

Jer 4:2 And thou shalt swear, The LORD liveth, in truth, in judgment, and in righteousness; and the nations shall bless themselves in him, and in him shall they glory.

Jer 9:24 But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the LORD which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, saith the LORD.

The spiritual symbol for the judgment of Christ is "fire". That is why scripture teaches that Christ came to baptize mankind with the Holy Spirit and with FIRE:

Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit, and with FIRE: 12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

The baptism of FIRE destroys the marred spiritual nature of mankind. The baptism of the Holy Spirit (the Latter Rain) gives us a new birth with a new spiritual nature. These TWO baptisms are necessary for mankind's conversion and salvation.

In this age, Christ will only do this spiritual work within His chosen Elect. For all others, they must wait until the final age for Christ to convert them. After He does, God will be "all in all":

1Cor 15:20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection from the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming (the Elect). 24 Then cometh the consummation (the balance of mankind), when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be ALL IN ALL.

Joe

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Isaiah 45:7​

​

Young's Literal Translation​

​

​

7 Forming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and preparing evil, I [am] Jehovah, doing all these things.'

Now do a Hebrew Word study and learn it is not inherent evil, but badness, calamity or hardship.

 

[Patrick1966]

Dear Space_Karen,
A dear brother in Christ (Ray Smith) wrote a short paper exposing the lie about "Lucifer". Here is a part of that paper which teaches why the name Lucifer is not even in scripture:

WHO OR WHAT IS 'LUCIFER?'

This next verse is where theologians believe God stops speaking of the King of Babylon and begins speaking of the origin of Satan. What pray tell, does the end of the King of Babylon have to do with the beginning of Satan? Really nothing, but let's check out their hypothesis anyway, as it is believed by the Church worldwide.


Notice that back in verse 4 God says to take up this proverb against the "king of Babylon." Next let's pick up this proverb in verse 10 after all the "trees" (different people which feared the king), are at rest because of the king's demise, and see if this "Lucifer theory" fits into these verses without doing irreparable damage to the kings English:


What is this? How can, the king of Babylon, the king of Babylon, the king of Babylon, the king of Babylon, the king of Babylon, the king of Babylon, the king of Babylon, the king of Babylon (made reference to eight time in two sentences), suddenly turn into "Lucifer" in the middle of a sentence? And where are we ever told that "Lucifer" is a proper name for Satan?

So just where did this proper name, "Lucifer" suddenly appear from in the middle of this sentence? Is "Lucifer" a proper name? Is it even a noun? Is "Lucifer" another name for the king of Babylon? Is "Lucifer" an English word? Is there a Hebrew word that can be translated "Lucifer?"

I am going to shine some LIGHT on this "O Lucifer, son of the morning star" business, and we can all watch Lucifer disappear in the dawn's early light. It is but another heresy from the Dark Ages that crept into the hallowed halls of the Church. This is a little lengthy, but it is also one of the most intriguing bits of deception your will ever see exposed, so I will take the time to debunk it.

THE UNTOLD ORIGIN OF 'LUCIFER'

From my American Heritage College Dictionary, Lucifer n. 1. The archangel cast from heaven for leading the revolt of the angels; Satan. < OE, morning star, Lucifer < Latin Lucifer < lucifer, light-bringer: lux, luc-, light" (page 821).

The very next word under "Lucifer" is, luciferase n. An enzyme that catalyzes the oxidation of luciferin." Hmmmmm. What have we here? "Lucifer + in."

And the word that follows "luciferase" in this same dictionary is: " luciferin n. A chemical substance present in the cells of bioluminescent organisms, such as fireflies that produce a bluish-green light when oxidized. [Latin Lucifer, light-bringing; see LUCIFER + -IN.]" (page. 821).

There it is! Lucifer is the "chemical bioluminescence' in the cells of FIREFLIES! WOW! With that in mind, we should all sleep better tonight.

LUCIFER IS A CHRISTIAN HOAX

And so what do fireflies have to do with the King of Babylon or Satan the devil? Nothing, absolutely nothing. Was Satan once a "light-bringing firefly"? No, no he wasn't. Then how in the world did we get this Latin word "lucifer" as part of Isa. 14:12, in so many English Bibles?

First, just who was it that fell from heaven, and does the phrase "fallen from heaven" prove that this person had to have been in God's throne room, or at least in interstellar space in order for him to "fall from heaven" therefore proving that this must be a spirit being only? No, of course not. It is a figure of speech. Here is proof from none other than Jesus:


So here we have a whole city being thrown down from heaven to hades, their grave. And so it is with the King of Babylon whose "pomp is brought down to the grave" (Isa. 14:11). These two Scriptures are exact parallel thoughts.

Now then, back to "lucifer." Just what is the Hebrew word found in the manuscripts that the translators turned into the Latin word Lucifer? It is very interesting. All of you with a Strong's Concordance, look up this word Lucifer. Right after the word Lucifer we are given a definition before we ever go to the Dictionary to find the meaning. Here is what you will find: Lucifer (lu'sif-ur){1} Title applied to king of Babylon.

Clearly the editor of Strong's Concordance realized that this word (whatever it means) is to be applied to the "king of Babylon," and NOT TO SATAN THE DEVIL!

We are told that the word in question is Strong's #1966 which is heylel, from 1984 [halal] (in the sense of brightness); the morning-star:--Lucifer.

What a web of deceit is woven in this "light-bringing-brightness-morning-star-Lucifer" theory. This word "Lucifer" appears no other place in Scripture. Was Satan ever spoken of as a "light-bringing perfect archangel"? No. What saith the Scriptures?


Satan is NOT an angel of light, neither has he ever been! It is the "false apostles, DECEITFUL workers" Ver 13, that DECEIVE people into believing lies. Satan appears as an angel of light to the world; he is transformed into an angel of light, but it is an illusion, it is not true, it is a deception!

Paul expels any such theory that Satan knows anything about "light":


Rev. 16:10 is but the continuation of the same Babylonian beast that we read about in Isa. 14:


So what is this heylel/halal of Isa. 14:12? Here is the problem—too many translations of previous translations without checking the Hebrew manuscripts first.

Lucifer is the Latin Vulgate translation of the word "xosphoruos" in the Septuagint, which is a Greek version of the Hebrew of Isaiah 14:12, which the King James translators then translated over into the English as "Lucifer."

The Latin and the Greek, as well as a supposed form of a "Hebrew" word in verse 12 mean "bright shiner" or "shining one." The problem is, however, that Isa.14:12 was not written in Latin or Greek, but Hebrew. And I assure you that "lucifer" is not a Hebrew word, nor is it an English translation of a Hebrew word. Lucifer is Latin, and is related to a group of Latin derived English words including lucid, luciferin and luciferose, as we saw defined above, all of which suggest brightness or shining. Likewise xosphoros in the Greek derived English words such as, fluorescence and phosphorescence.

But, there seems to be no Hebrew or Aramaic text in which there is a word in this verse to correspond. What we find in all such texts is the word "hehlehl,' eill, which is a form of the Hebrew stem "yah-lahl," ill. And what is the meaning of "ill"? Are you ready? It means HOWL. That's right, "Lucifer" turns out to be nothing more than a "howl" (maybe of "hot air')!

It has been suggested that the translators of the Septuagint (Hebrew into Greek) could have overlooked the smallest of the Hebrew letters or been using a copy in which it had been inadvertently omitted. Thus if the form of the world eill, as it occurs in this particular text, were shortened to ell its meaning would be derived from a different root, in fact would be itself a different root, and the sense given in the Septuagint and the Vulgate would be at least understandable, with one giant exception. There is still absolutely no reason or rule of grammar for turning this word into a personal name! It could possibly mean "a shining one," but not a personal name such as "Lucifer." Doubtless the translators followed the Vulgate as they did in most of their translating.

Even such an eminent translator as Rotherham seemed to follow the Septuagint in this verse, however, from his comments within parenthesis, it is clear that he was fully aware of the fact that whatever this word meant, it was referring to none other than the context of these verses which is Babylon and not Satan:


Clearly the reference is to Babylon and none other. It was Babylon which was exalted to heaven (as conspicuous as Venus, the brightest star of the morning) in her wealth, power, and glory. Yet just as Capernaum, God says she is brought down to the earth, the one who was a "crusher of nations."

An amazing and revealing post. Thank you!

 

[Aunty Jane]

So you think that Satan fooled God? I don't.

Who can fool God? Certainly none of his creation.
Satan was once a faithful angel who began to entertained wrong desires.....instead of dismissing them, he acted on them. (James 1:13-15) The position of trust that God placed him in as a guardian in Eden, makes him doubly reprehensible.
He abused his position and his free will, and by deception, led the entire human race into sin and death. But all three willingly participated in the rebellion, knowing what God had said concerning the TKGE. The humans wilfully violated a direct command of God because a rebel spirit lied to the woman.

God uses Satan to torment (test) us. How can we fully appreciate the light if we haven't expected the dark?

No, he did not purposely use satan to test us, but used the rebellion to teach us first hand about the consequences of disobedience. He told the rebels what would happen, but they still disobeyed him...so he had to show them what it meant to step away from their Creator and misuse the free will gifted to them. (Jer 10:23)

In the wrong hands free will is a curse. Every horrible atrocity perpetrated by man is an abuse of free will. Look what humans have done to the world and each other because they failed to obey Jehovah. Even those who pretend to be Christians will take up weapons and kill one another just because their political or national ideologies clash. Whose interests do they represent? (1John 5:19) As those who want to live under the rule of God’s Kingdom, we are told to be NO part of that world. (John 18:36) Satan rules it and his stamp is on everything in it.

Man was not designed to rule himself or others......that kind of power always corrupts us.....we are designed to be ruled by our Creator, and yet possess the free will to function as individuals and to interact with each other in love, not in competition.

A good tree cannot produce bad fruit. Satan is God's fruit doing what must be done for our spiritual development.

Jesus was speaking about the religious system that governed the Jewish people in his day. He had condemned the Pharisees and Sadducees outright because the religious system that taught them had become horribly corrupt and divisive. It was God who gave them his laws and called them his people, but by the time his promised Messiah arrived, these very people were incorrigibly wicked. Jesus said that their worship was in vain because they taught the commands of men as doctrines. (Matt 15:7-9)

Did God plant a bad tree? Was he responsible for their bad fruitage? NO! They abused their free will and the devil was again pleased to lead humans down a wrong path. He is the “god” of this world. (2 Cor 4:3-4) By disobedience they traveled the road to destruction. (Matt 7:13-14)

Satan was created perfect like Adam and his wife......but they chose to abuse their free will, and instead of punishing them at the beginning, God used the rebellion as a teaching tool, demonstrating where self determination can lead when we disregard his laws and principles.

Jehovah is about to return the human race back to his original purpose for us......but only those obedient to his laws and principles will get to live in the paradise he has in store for us. What God starts, he finishes. (Isa 55:11) If you don’t know what he started, then the finish will not be obvious. I believe that the expectations of most Christians today, will lead to great disappointment. (Matt 7:21-23)

 

[Aunty Jane]

Dear Aunty Jane,
I have heard this false version of God and how He operates many times over the years. However, there simply is no truth in it and it is contradicted by many scriptures. Your understanding comes from the deceptions of Satan which are used to support the false beliefs of the apostate church.
I have heard this false version of God and how He operates many times over the years. However, there simply is no truth in it and it is contradicted by many scriptures. Your understanding comes from the deceptions of Satan which are used to support the false beliefs of the apostate church.

Firstly, God never just "allows" things to happen. Scripture says that He is the cause of all things which happen:

Well, I have heard many versions of scripture myself over the years, and yours is just one of them....I find very little scriptural truth in all your conjecture. You seem to assume many things and interpret scripture to suit what you wish to believe. May I ask if you have a brotherhood who all believe the same things as you do..? What is the source of your interpretation of scripture?

 

[face2face]

God would never have inflicted such pain and suffering on his children on purpose....

As you have proven you have no origin story, yes, considerable special pleading, which doesnt carry with me as you well know.

 

[face2face]

So you think that Satan fooled God? I don't.

....once again the Christian cannot find agreement on a doctrine which is man-made. No origin story equals no basis for belief. Jane has been shown clearly the evidence for correct interpretation but she's chooses to ignore to her own hurt.

 

[face2face]

Who can fool God? Certainly none of his creation.
Satan was once a faithful angel who began to entertained wrong desires.....instead of dismissing them, he acted on them. (James 1:13-15) The position of trust that God placed him in as a guardian in Eden, makes him doubly reprehensible.
He abused his position and his free will, and by deception, led the entire human race into sin and death. But all three willingly participated in the rebellion, knowing what God had said concerning the TKGE. The humans wilfully violated a direct command of God because a rebel spirit lied to the woman.

Where there is no origin story one must need create one to support their false teaching. The red text is found nowhere in Genesis; the Torah is silent on such an event, in fact the entire Scripture has no such story. Temptation can only come from the substance of earthly flesh - divine nature cannot be tempted with evil - end of story.

 

[face2face]

No, he did not purposely use satan to test us, but used the rebellion to teach us first hand about the consequences of disobedience. He told the rebels what would happen, but they still disobeyed him...so he had to show them what it meant to step away from their Creator and misuse the free will gifted to them. (Jer 10:23)

In the wrong hands free will is a curse. Every horrible atrocity perpetrated by man is an abuse of free will. Look what humans have done to the world and each other because they failed to obey Jehovah. Even those who pretend to be Christians will take up weapons and kill one another just because their political or national ideologies clash. Whose interests do they represent? (1John 5:19) As those who want to live under the rule of God’s Kingdom, we are told to be NO part of that world. (John 18:36) Satan rules it and his stamp is on everything in it.

Do you know what's ironic about this reply? It does everything to show the problem is with the nature of man and proves nothing of an evil fallen angel. In the beginning flesh was given voice in the form of a serpent and that serpent body was lifted up and destroyed.

Hebrews 2:14 Since the children have flesh and blood, Jesus also shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him (sin personified) who holds the power of death—that is, the devil (false accuser)—

What holds the power of death?

"The wages of sin is death"

I could show you how God broke that power in His Son but I get the sense Christians are more interested in fanciful notions of fallen angels than actually learning about the true plan and purpose of God in the earth.

Imagine perpetrating the idea of another god and to suggest it rules?

And Scripture contradicts you Jane...you can have a good Satan! You only need understand the true meaning of the word and apply it to the text.

 

[face2face]

Who can fool God? Certainly none of his creation.
Satan was once a faithful angel who began to entertained wrong desires.....instead of dismissing them, he acted on them. (James 1:13-15) The position of trust that God placed him in as a guardian in Eden, makes him doubly reprehensible.
He abused his position and his free will, and by deception, led the entire human race into sin and death. But all three willingly participated in the rebellion, knowing what God had said concerning the TKGE. The humans wilfully violated a direct command of God because a rebel spirit lied to the woman.

No, he did not purposely use satan to test us, but used the rebellion to teach us first hand about the consequences of disobedience. He told the rebels what would happen, but they still disobeyed him...so he had to show them what it meant to step away from their Creator and misuse the free will gifted to them. (Jer 10:23)

In the wrong hands free will is a curse. Every horrible atrocity perpetrated by man is an abuse of free will. Look what humans have done to the world and each other because they failed to obey Jehovah. Even those who pretend to be Christians will take up weapons and kill one another just because their political or national ideologies clash. Whose interests do they represent? (1John 5:19) As those who want to live under the rule of God’s Kingdom, we are told to be NO part of that world. (John 18:36) Satan rules it and his stamp is on everything in it.

Man was not designed to rule himself or others......that kind of power always corrupts us.....we are designed to be ruled by our Creator, and yet possess the free will to function as individuals and to interact with each other in love, not in competition.

Jesus was speaking about the religious system that governed the Jewish people in his day. He had condemned the Pharisees and Sadducees outright because the religious system that taught them had become horribly corrupt and divisive. It was God who gave them his laws and called them his people, but by the time his promised Messiah arrived, these very people were incorrigibly wicked. Jesus said that their worship was in vain because they taught the commands of men as doctrines. (Matt 15:7-9)

Did God plant a bad tree? Was he responsible for their bad fruitage? NO! They abused their free will and the devil was again pleased to lead humans down a wrong path. He is the “god” of this world. (2 Cor 4:3-4) By disobedience they traveled the road to destruction. (Matt 7:13-14)

Satan was created perfect like Adam and his wife......but they chose to abuse their free will, and instead of punishing them at the beginning, God used the rebellion as a teaching tool, demonstrating where self determination can lead when we disregard his laws and principles.

Jehovah is about to return the human race back to his original purpose for us......but only those obedient to his laws and principles will get to live in the paradise he has in store for us. What God starts, he finishes. (Isa 55:11) If you don’t know what he started, then the finish will not be obvious. I believe that the expectations of most Christians today, will lead to great disappointment. (Matt 7:21-23)

I give a detailed explanation here Lucifer or a Fallen Angel

 

[FaithWillDo]

Well, I have heard many versions of scripture myself over the years, and yours is just one of them....I find very little scriptural truth in all your conjecture. You seem to assume many things and interpret scripture to suit what you wish to believe. May I ask if you have a brotherhood who all believe the same things as you do..? What is the source of your interpretation of scripture?

Dear Aunty Jane,
I associate with no churches or sects of Christianity. The "church" is no longer Christ's church. It has become apostate and is under the spiritual deceptions of Satan just as scripture warned would happen. As for others who believe as I do, I have met a "few" truly converted believers online but none locally.

Scripture is written in the spiritual language of Christ.

Isa 28: 9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. 10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: 11 For with stammering lips and another language (Christ's spiritual language) will he speak to this people. 12 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

1Cor 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

1Cor 2:13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

The truth of God's Word is concealed from all but the Elect and even from them before they are converted and given "eyes that can see" (Mark 8:21-25).

Why does God do this?

His answer is in Isa 28:12 which I posted above. God does it so that a called out believer (the church) will not been able to understand the truth and their lack of understanding will open the door to Satan's deceptions (Mat 12:43-45). This will cause ALL (100%) called out believers to "fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken". In other words, the believer will lose their salvation and will unknowingly follow and serve Satan, all the while believing that they are following Christ.

2Cor 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 15 Therefore, it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

This is how the church became apostate shortly after the deaths of the Apostles.

You asked:
What is the source of your interpretation of scripture?

My source of knowledge comes solely from scripture by guidance of the Holy Spirit. I no longer have any teachers. I will explain below how this came about.

I was converted on October 8th, 2005 at the age of 44. My conversion testimony is posted on my website: www.greatmysteryofchrist.com
Up until the time of my conversion, I had been in the "church" from my childhood. But after I was converted and given eyes that can see, I very quickly learned that nearly everything that I had been taught in the church was nothing more than lies and deceptions from Satan. It was the "another gospel" Paul warned us about.

The day of my conversion was similar to the description Peter gave in Acts 2:14-21 when he and the others were converted on the Day of Pentecost. At that time, my sun and moon were darkened. In other words, I was no longer receiving my truth from the natural sun (Satan) and the natural moon (bondwoman) who used to be my parents in the apostate church. It was an amazing spiritual event with earthquakes, thunder, lightning and trumpets. At that time, the Man of Sin was revealed to me and I found that he was the one who was looking back at me in the mirror. I could also see the Abomination of Desolation which had caused my spiritual death in the apostate church. It was a very humbling experience but still the greatest day of my life.

Satan's false gospel which is taught in the apostate church is based on mixing "works" with faith. This method of salvation is very pleasing to mankind's carnal nature.

Luke 5:39 No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, the old is better.

The Old Wine represents the blood of the animal sacrifices of the Old Covenant of Law. The Old Covenant is man's approach to Christ of using their own works. With this approach, the remission of sins is not possible.

Heb 10:3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

The New Wine represents the blood of Christ which He shed for the New Covenant of Grace through Faith.

Mat 26:27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; 28 For this is my blood of the New Covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. 29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.

The New Covenant of Grace through Faith is the only acceptable approach to Christ and it is based solely on the works of Christ “lest any man should boast” (Eph 2:9). Under this covenant, Christ will change mankind from “within”. However, this approach to Christ is rejected by mankind’s carnal nature because mankind's carnal nature inherently believes that mankind has at least some ability to make themselves acceptable to God. This inherent belief is responsible for the many religions of the world and is why called out believers will mix their own “works” with faith. When believers commit this sin, they are trying to serve two masters (Mat 6:24).

Because mankind's carnal nature has a preference for "works", Satan quickly and easily deceives a new believer into turning to "works" for salvation via the spirit of anti-Christ. Satan's deception resulted in the creation of the doctrines of Free Will and Hell in the apostate church.

Joe

 

[face2face]

Why does God do this?

His answer is in Isa 28:12 which I posted above. God does it so that a called out believer (the church) will not been able to understand the truth and their lack of understanding will open the door to Satan's deceptions (Mat 12:43-45).
Joe

Hi Joe
Can you explain your understanding of Matthew 12:43-45 as it doesn't speak of Satan's deception, but rather mans.
Have you fabricated this "being" to move the responsibility, I wonder?
F2F

 

[Space_Karen]

Dear Space_Karen,
A dear brother in Christ (Ray Smith)

What is this? How can, the king of Babylon, the king of Babylon, the king of Babylon, the king of Babylon, the king of Babylon, the king of Babylon, the king of Babylon, the king of Babylon (made reference to eight time in two sentences), suddenly turn into "Lucifer" in the middle of a sentence?

How did those who lived during World War II correlate Hitler and nazi germany with the devil?

Ray Smith appears to struggle discussing a topic which doesn't amount to more than basic history 101.

And where are we ever told that "Lucifer" is a proper name for Satan?

There is still absolutely no reason or rule of grammar for turning this word into a personal name! It could possibly mean "a shining one," but not a personal name such as "Lucifer."

There is no real distinction between personal or generic names.

Another basic and fundamental point which Ray Smith appears to struggle with.

 

[FaithWillDo]

Hi Joe
Can you explain your understanding of Matthew 12:43-45 as it doesn't speak of Satan's deception, but rather mans.
Have you fabricated this "being" to move the responsibility, I wonder?
F2F

Dear face2face,

Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Since you don't believe that Satan exists or that he is the one who deceives the world, what I present below will make little sense to you.

Here it is anyway; maybe it will benefit someone on the forum.

Mat 12:43 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none. 44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished. 45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself SEVEN other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.

The spiritual symbol of an unclean spirit represents a spirit who teaches Satan's false truth through lies and deceptions.

Since a new believer remains spiritually blind (Mark 8:21-25) after receiving the Early Rain of the Spirit (the Holy Spirit of Promise, Eph 1:13-14), they cannot replace their worldly false beliefs with the truth of Christ. ONE unclean spirit leaves but comes back with SEVEN more. The number "seven" represents perfection. In this case, the number seven represents the perfection of Satan's lies/deceptions which come to a believer by the indwelling of the spirit of anti-Christ. Now, instead of ONE unclean spirit within the believer, they now have EIGHT. The number eight is a spiritual symbol which represents a new spiritual condition. In this case, the new spiritual condition is worse than the first. This "worse than the first" spiritual condition makes the believer a false prophet, a Man of Sin or a Seven Headed Beast with Ten Horns and crowns.

Christ also taught on the spirit of anti-Christ in these verses:

Mar 5:2 And when he was come out of the ship, immediately there met him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit, 3 Who had his dwelling among the tombs; and no man could bind him, no, not with chains: 4 Because that he had been often bound with fetters and chains, and the chains had been plucked asunder by him, and the fetters broken in pieces: neither could any man tame him. 5 And always, night and day, he was in the mountains, and in the tombs, crying, and cutting himself with stones. 6 But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him, 7 And cried with a loud voice, and said, what have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not. 8 For he said unto him, Come out of the man, thou unclean spirit. 9 And he asked him, What is thy name? And he answered, saying, my name is LEGION; for we are many. 10 And he besought him much that he would not send them away out of the country. 11 Now there was there nigh unto the mountains a great herd of swine feeding. 12 And all the devils besought him, saying, Send us into the swine, that we may enter into them. 13 And forthwith Jesus gave them leave. And the unclean spirits went out, and entered into the swine: and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the sea, (they were about two thousand and were choked in the sea.

The "man" who is possessed by many unclean spirits represents an Elect believer just prior to their conversion. The stones the man uses to cut himself represents the Law of Moses (man’s work). The unclean spirit (Legion, who are many) represents the spirit of anti-Christ who has spiritually killed the man (he dwells among the tombs). This is how Satan kills the saints (Mat 24:9, Rev 11:7). When Christ comes to the man with the Latter Rain of the Spirit, Christ drives out the spirit of anti-Christ by the brightness of His appearing. This represents the judgment of the Beast and False Prophet (a Man of Sin, one flesh). Before this happens, Legion asks to go into the great herd of Swine feeding upon the hill. The Herd of Swine represents other called out believers who are also chosen (“2000” in the herd). When Legion enters the Swine, they run into the sea and are killed just as the possessed man was killed earlier.

The spirit of anti-Christ invaded the church in the 1st century A.D. and ravaged it.

Paul prophesied of its coming in the verse below:

Acts 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

John also made this statement:

1John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

By the time the book of Revelation was written by John, the spirit of anti-Christ had come and destroyed the churches which the Apostles started. Nothing has changed in the church since that time. The apostasy of the church happened in accordance with God's "will" and plan which He has revealed in scripture.

Joe

 

[face2face]

Dear face2face,

Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Since you don't believe that Satan exists or that he is the one who deceives the world, what I present below will make little sense to you.

So you know, rather than dealing with all the error in a post, my rule of thumb is to start with the first and go from there...

It amuses me that Christians run very quickly to Revelation to prove their monster's existence. They run to the end of the book because they have nothing at the beginning.

Not only do you force notions upon the text which are not there...fanciful ones at that, you then proceed to use an interpretive method which is not used in any of the Revelations many prophetical utterances.

Here let me give you you an example.

Do you believe the woman in Rev 12 is literally clothed with a sun?
Do you believe she has literally 12 stars on her head?
And that the enormous red dragon is literal?

I could go on but as you can see your understanding of Revelation is a far cry from the Lords and your basis is clearly "man-made".

I doubt you are interested in learning being so persuaded in your fallen angel theology.

But we will see.

F2F

 

[Patrick1966]

Do you believe the woman in Rev 12 is literally clothed with a sun?
Do you believe she has literally 12 stars on her head?
And that the enormous red dragon is literal?

Please elaborate. :)

 

[Aunty Jane]

I associate with no churches or sects of Christianity. The "church" is no longer Christ's church. It has become apostate and is under the spiritual deceptions of Satan just as scripture warned would happen. As for others who believe as I do, I have met a "few" truly converted believers online but none locally.

I agree that what calls itself "the church" today, is nothing like what Christ and his apostles began.

The truth of God's Word is concealed from all but the Elect and even from them before they are converted and given "eyes that can see" (Mark 8:21-25).

The scripture you cited is a real life experience of a blind man that Jesus healed of his literal blindness. You seem to see everything as pictorial of something else. Many things are....but not everything is.

Can I ask you what you see as the role of "the elect" in God's Kingdom....and what the Kingdom itself is, and what it will accomplish?

Why does God do this?

His answer is in Isa 28:12 which I posted above. God does it so that a called out believer (the church) will not been able to understand the truth and their lack of understanding will open the door to Satan's deceptions (Mat 12:43-45). This will cause ALL (100%) called out believers to "fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken". In other words, the believer will lose their salvation and will unknowingly follow and serve Satan, all the while believing that they are following Christ.

2Cor 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 15 Therefore, it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

This is how the church became apostate shortly after the deaths of the Apostles.

Jesus himself told us plainly that "weeds" would be planted by satan in the same "field" as he planted the "wheat", and that this was to occur "while men were sleeping". So this 'counterfeit' "Christianity" was to become like weeds in a garden, taking over and trying to choke out the "wheat".....God allowed them to "grow together" however, because it is a test for all of us to choose what is in our hearts. Satan's deceptions would not be deceptions if they were obvious....we usually find out too later that we were deceived.....that will be the case when Jehovah sends his judge into the world to separate the "sheep" from the "goats". The "goats' who thought they were "sheep" will protest and try to convince Jesus that they were his disciples....and yet his response will devastate them!...."I NEVER knew you"! (Matt 7:21-23)

You asked:
What is the source of your interpretation of scripture?

My source of knowledge comes solely from scripture by guidance of the Holy Spirit. I no longer have any teachers.

Do you know how many people claim this? All say the same thing, and yet the "Holy Spirit" has not led them to the same conclusions.
If you all claim the "Holy Spirit" as your source, then who is to determine whose "truth" is the right one? I only see a ripe opportunity for "the angel of light" to deceive those who think that they alone have some special revelation and insight into scripture.

I had been in the "church" from my childhood. But after I was converted and given eyes that can see, I very quickly learned that nearly everything that I had been taught in the church was nothing more than lies and deceptions from Satan. It was the "another gospel" Paul warned us about.

This is a similar story to my own, except that being a "Christian" for me, meant finding 'the diamond in a pile of broken glass'. Among the counterfeits there is still the true faith. This 'diamond' is God's truth, undistorted by Christendom's corruption, and it was not done by just reading the Bible and coming to my own conclusions. God does not work that way. He has always had a "people" who were drawn together by his word, and those who were taught by his representatives. (Heb13:17) No one can be a Christian in isolation...one must be "drawn" into a united brotherhood who all believe one truth without dissension or disagreement. (1 Cor 1:10; John 6:44, 65) Paul says we are to meet regularly to "encourage one another to love and fine works". (Heb 10:24- 25) We are after all, part of one spiritual family whose members are found in every nation on earth, united in the "pure language" of the truth. Who are your brethren? With whom do you meet regularly to share encouragement and to worship the God of Jesus Christ in truth?

For Israel, that meant being born into the Jewish nation who were declared to be Jehovah's people and were bound to obey God's laws from birth....no ifs or buts. Jehovah had those appointed to teach his word to the people regularly. So why did Jehovah choose Israel if they were never going to keep their covenant with him? How many times did he have to punish them for defecting to false worship, false gods and religious practices that were abhorrent to him? Yet he kept them in existence for centuries in order to fulfill his part of the covenant concerning their promised Messiah. Once he had accomplished that, and offered first places in his Kingdom to the Jewish disciples of his son, he then abandoned apostate Israel and chose a new nation to represent his interests on this earth. (Matt 21:42-43; Acts 15:14; Matt 23:37-39)
Made up of both Jewish and Gentile believers, this nation was called "the Israel of God" (Gal 6:16)...spiritual Israel.

So for me it was a process of investigation into many different religious beliefs and expressions, until there was one that finally settled in my heart as ringing true....and completely backed up by scripture. It came with that loving, united spiritual family....who found me, rather than me finding them. They were the only ones who were out in their communities actively looking for those who were searching for the truth.....and like Jesus and his disciples, they are not well received, especially by those who accept Christendom's doctrines as truth. (John 15:18-21) The greatest opposers of Jesus were those who claimed to worship the same God.

The method used to preach about God's Kingdom in the first century is still practiced by these ones who go "door to door" bringing "good news" to those who are suffering and hopeless in satan's world of heartache and increasing wickedness. (Acts 20:20; Matt 24:14) Christianity was always a "pay it forward"....

The day of my conversion was similar to the description Peter gave in Acts 2:14-21 when he and the others were converted on the Day of Pentecost. At that time, my sun and moon were darkened. In other words, I was no longer receiving my truth from the natural sun (Satan) and the natural moon (bondwoman) who used to be my parents in the apostate church. It was an amazing spiritual event with earthquakes, thunder, lightning and trumpets. At that time, the Man of Sin was revealed to me and I found that he was the one who was looking back at me in the mirror. I could also see the Abomination of Desolation which had caused my spiritual death in the apostate church. It was a very humbling experience but still the greatest day of my life.

Satan's false gospel which is taught in the apostate church is based on mixing "works" with faith. This method of salvation is very pleasing to mankind's carnal nature.

Thank you for sharing your experience but it isn't anything at all like my own. There was no "earthquakes, thunder, lightning and trumpets"....just an amazing realization that I had found a treasure that had been buried all my life, and someone helped me to dig for it in God's word. The more I dug, the more gems I found. No one gets the truth handed to them......it takes time and effort to come to such knowledge. Christianity was to spread by word of mouth....one who became a Christian was then under obligation to go out and spread the word so that others could also come to a knowledge of that truth and take the necessary steps towards Christian dedication and baptism. If one is in isolation then who will baptize them? God appointed John the Baptist to begin preparing the Jewish people for the appearance of their promised Messiah. He is the one who baptized Jesus, not for sins committed against God's law, but to begin his role as Messiah.....one he knew would end in his death. His "elect" would also undergo the same water baptism which would come to include the role of the holy spirit in imparting a "heavenly calling" to them.....(Heb 3:1) Not all Christians have the "heavenly calling" because heaven was never a destination that God had in mind for the human race at the beginning.
So can you tell me what you envision as the future for mankind, and how Revelation 21:2-4 will have its fulfillment....?

 

[face2face]

Please elaborate. :)

Patrick, you will find many Christians here in this thread haven't set their minds to prayerfully seeking out the true meaning of these colorful images. Most will regurgitate theologians who were deceived themselves. Look at how Jane or Faithwilldo handle Rev 12:9 and already you are seeing flaws? - on one hand they will force non-scriptural notions on Rev 12:9 saying this is a literal fallen angel and then symbolize those early verse's to mean something entirely different. Let's see how they deal with verse 9 and see if they can draw on the meaning of these words and their origins in the early books of the Bible. They have created this false story out of nothing...lets see how well they defend it!