Trinity vs. Tritheism: Understanding the Trinity.

[101G]

Who was the redeemer?

you don't know, so who is speaking here?

PICJAG.

 

[Dave L]

you don't know, so who is speaking here?

PICJAG.

God is speaking.

 

[101G]

You cannot see it through the oneness framework. It's like having a lobotomy.

poor dave, that all you have ... excuses. you can call us this or that, but it will not change the word of God. ... .
PICJAG.

 

[Dave L]

poor dave, that all you have ... excuses. you can call us this or that, but it will not change the word of God. ... .
PICJAG.

So you say it wasn't God speaking?

 

[101G]

God is speaking.

which person, since you said that they are separate and distinct...

well which one?

PICJAG.

 

[101G]

dave you're nothing but a charlatan. you're excused.

 

[Dave L]

which person, since you said that they are separate and distinct...

well which one?

PICJAG.

God speaks collectively as the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. It is God speaking no matter how you present it.

 

[Dave L]

dave you're nothing but a charlatan. you're excused.

I found a bunch of these on the net. How do you answer them?

1. Where in the Scripture does it say that God is unitarian? (or that God exist as one person?)

Note: Nowhere in Scripture is God defined as one person, but rather as one Being: mono (from monos, meaning, alone or only one) and theism (from theos, meaning, God). Oneness adherents (along with Muslims and Jehovah’s Witnesses) wrongly assume that the concept or word “one” when referring to God (e.g., Deut. 6:4) has the strict denotative meaning of absolute solitude. Arguing unipersonalism (unitarianism) assumes a conclusion that is meant to be proved.

https://christiandefense.org/oneness/10-questions-to-ask-oneness-believers/

 

[101G]

@Dave L I was reading your link and I bookmarked it because we have seen so many ERRORS in it which we'll get to later, but addressing the first one on the list. it said, "
1. Where in the Scripture does it say that God is unitarian? (or that God exist as one person?)

Note: Nowhere in Scripture is God defined as one person, but rather as one Being: mono (from monos, meaning, alone or only one)

here's one Isaiah 44:24 "Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself".

the floor is yours.

 

[Dave L]

@Dave L I was reading your link and I bookmarked it because we have seen so many ERRORS in it which we'll get to later, but addressing the first one on the list. it said, "
1. Where in the Scripture does it say that God is unitarian? (or that God exist as one person?)

Note: Nowhere in Scripture is God defined as one person, but rather as one Being: mono (from monos, meaning, alone or only one)

here's one Isaiah 44:24 "Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself".

the floor is yours.

I don't think you refuted their point. Because everyone says God is one. And the trinity is God of One spiritual essence.

Here's another they challenge you with;

2. If God is unitarian, how do you explain passages such as Genesis 19:24 where Yahweh (“LORD”), rained brimstone and fire from Yahweh out of heaven?

Note: there are many places in the OT where God is presented as multi-personal (e.g., plural nouns, verbs, nouns, prepositions, and plural adjectives were used of God, i.e., “Us,” “Our,” in Gen. 1:26-27; 3:22; 11:7-9; Isa. 6:8; 54:5; Prov. 30:3; John 14:23]; Yahweh to Yahweh and Elohim (“God”) to Elohim correspondences in passages such as Gen. 19:24; Ps. 45:6-7; Hos. 1:6-7; etc.).

 

[101G]

I don't think you refuted their point. Because everyone says God is one. And the trinity is God of One spiritual essence.

Here's another they challenge you with;

2. If God is unitarian, how do you explain passages such as Genesis 19:24 where Yahweh (“LORD”), rained brimstone and fire from Yahweh out of heaven?

Note: there are many places in the OT where God is presented as multi-personal (e.g., plural nouns, verbs, nouns, prepositions, and plural adjectives were used of God, i.e., “Us,” “Our,” in Gen. 1:26-27; 3:22; 11:7-9; Isa. 6:8; 54:5; Prov. 30:3; John 14:23]; Yahweh to Yahweh and Elohim (“God”) to Elohim correspondences in passages such as Gen. 19:24; Ps. 45:6-7; Hos. 1:6-7; etc.).

Alone, according to NSBD(T) dictionary, From H909; separate; adverbially separately: - alone, desolate, only, solitar
and this is in adverb form, just as BBD states,
1) isolation, withdrawal, separation (noun masculine)
1a) an isolated city
2) alone (adverb)
2a) security (figuratively)
so your link is refuted.
PICJAG.

 

[Dave L]

Alone, according to NSBD(T) dictionary, From H909; separate; adverbially separately: - alone, desolate, only, solitar
and this is in adverb form, just as BBD states,
1) isolation, withdrawal, separation (noun masculine)
1a) an isolated city
2) alone (adverb)
2a) security (figuratively)
so your link is refuted.
PICJAG.

How does this refute the question?

 

[101G]

How does this refute the question?

Alone here in Isaiah 44:24 means ONE, no other person, Just as Adam was alone in the Garden by HIMSELF.

now as the multi-personal vs the plurality of God. listen real good, God is a plurality of HIMSELF. and not a multi-person. that's always been your mistake.

listen G243 allos (another) expresses a numerical difference and denotes another of the same sort. that's why, Genesis 2:18 "And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him".

now what is the numerical difference to the First man? answer "ANOTHER" man. listen to the definition of MAN/ADAM.
H120 אָדָם 'adam (aw-dawm') n-m.
ruddy i.e. a human being (an individual or the species, mankind, etc.).
[from H119]
KJV: X another, + hypocrite, + common sort, X low, man (mean, of low degree), person.

see EVE is the numerical difference from the First man, she's "ANOTHER" of Adam.

now God is ONE, in NATURE and IN PERSON. but God is "ANOTHER" of himself in FLESH, but not in PERSON. this is just the opposit of adam and eve, which is G2087 heteros. and it means listen carefully, heteros expresses a qualitative difference and denotes "another" of a different sort

see the difference now. that's why they have the same body... Nature, but are separate persons. God has only one NATURE, and he "SHARED" himself in another nature, a body of flesh, which G243 identifies this process as a "numerical difference", or what some say is the incarnation. so what do incarnation means? listen, a person who embodies in the flesh a deity, spirit, or abstract quality. DID YOU SEE THAT? "A" PERSON, MEANING ONLY "ONE" PERSON. see your error now?

this is what G243 allos states.. of the "SAME" sort, or PERSON. same sort is the same person. that's why God said "US" and "OUR" for he is a "DIVERSITY" of his OWN self. this is too easy to understand. we suggest you study G243 allos, and G2087 heteros and learn the difference.

example, Isaiah 46:9 "Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me".

did you see it, God said "I", and "ME", these are all single desigination. why? lets get the full context here. Isaiah 46:9 "Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
Isaiah 46:10 "Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure". this is what God don't change on, "his appointed counsel".

scripture are clear, God is another of HIMSELF in flesh. case closed.

PICJAG.

 

[Nancy]

But the body and soul are 100% human, only without sin. Jesus' Spirit is the triune God. That is he did not have a human spirit as we do.

Well put Dave,
Jesus had a personality like us, he bled, hurt, mourned and suffered as we do yet, He set aside His divine powers so that He Himself could:
Hebrews 4:15 "For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are--yet he did not sin."

 

[101G]

Well put Dave,
Jesus had a personality like us, he bled, hurt, mourned and suffered as we do yet, He set aside His divine powers so that He Himself could:
Hebrews 4:15 "For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are--yet he did not sin."

Not saying that you're right or wrong, but consider this. you agreed that Jesus had a 100% human soul. question, did not Jesus already had a soul before the world was even created? so where did he get this 100% human soul from? just asking.

PICJAG.

 

[Nancy]

Not saying that you're right or wrong, but consider this. you agreed that Jesus had a 100% human soul. question, did not Jesus already had a soul before the world was even created? so where did he get this 100% human soul from? just asking.

PICJAG.

You are correct, I SHOULD have asked Dave about that and should have said He has a Spirit that was from eternity, not a soul. Although, I have no idea if Jesus had a "soul"...still not solid on the difference yet. But, I do believe Jesus was God Himself.
Titus 2:13 13 waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,
As far as the Trinity goes, I just look at Jesus baptism when all 3 are present and in accord. Yes, the voice out of heaven HAD to be God's, who else would say they were well pleased in their SON? Then, Genesis, in the beginning...You have the Spirit of God hovering back and forth over the waters. Then you have God (?) saying "let US make man in OUR image...just seems pretty self explanatory to me but then, I am no scholar! lol.

 

[justbyfaith]

Ephesians 4:10 explains for us the "with" in John 1:1.

God the Father descended into time, taking on the added nature of human flesh, then ascended to inhabit eternity once again. Thus you have two of the same Person dwelling in eternity (outside of time). Simple.

At the baptism of Jesus, God the Father and God the Holy Spirit descended from their perspective positions in eternity to testify of the Son; who has already descended to take on a nature of human flesh. The Holy Ghost, in essence went "back in time" since the origins of the Holy Ghost is that Jesus gave up the ghost in Luke 23:46...He released His Spirit back to the Father who inhabiteth eternity.

The Spirit of Jesus is the Father (look up John 4:23-24 and John 14:7-11). God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost are the same Person; with distinctions between each one.

 

[Dave L]

Alone here in Isaiah 44:24 means ONE, no other person, Just as Adam was alone in the Garden by HIMSELF.

now as the multi-personal vs the plurality of God. listen real good, God is a plurality of HIMSELF. and not a multi-person. that's always been your mistake.

listen G243 allos (another) expresses a numerical difference and denotes another of the same sort. that's why, Genesis 2:18 "And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him".

now what is the numerical difference to the First man? answer "ANOTHER" man. listen to the definition of MAN/ADAM.
H120 אָדָם 'adam (aw-dawm') n-m.
ruddy i.e. a human being (an individual or the species, mankind, etc.).
[from H119]
KJV: X another, + hypocrite, + common sort, X low, man (mean, of low degree), person.

see EVE is the numerical difference from the First man, she's "ANOTHER" of Adam.

now God is ONE, in NATURE and IN PERSON. but God is "ANOTHER" of himself in FLESH, but not in PERSON. this is just the opposit of adam and eve, which is G2087 heteros. and it means listen carefully, heteros expresses a qualitative difference and denotes "another" of a different sort

see the difference now. that's why they have the same body... Nature, but are separate persons. God has only one NATURE, and he "SHARED" himself in another nature, a body of flesh, which G243 identifies this process as a "numerical difference", or what some say is the incarnation. so what do incarnation means? listen, a person who embodies in the flesh a deity, spirit, or abstract quality. DID YOU SEE THAT? "A" PERSON, MEANING ONLY "ONE" PERSON. see your error now?

this is what G243 allos states.. of the "SAME" sort, or PERSON. same sort is the same person. that's why God said "US" and "OUR" for he is a "DIVERSITY" of his OWN self. this is too easy to understand. we suggest you study G243 allos, and G2087 heteros and learn the difference.

example, Isaiah 46:9 "Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me".

did you see it, God said "I", and "ME", these are all single desigination. why? lets get the full context here. Isaiah 46:9 "Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
Isaiah 46:10 "Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure". this is what God don't change on, "his appointed counsel".

scripture are clear, God is another of HIMSELF in flesh. case closed.

PICJAG.

It doesn't address their position, only yours. Here's another question they have for Oneness folks;

3. If God is unitarian, why are there so many plural descriptions in the OT (viz. plural nouns, adjectives, verbs, prepositions) to describe the one God? (as seen above).

Example: in Isaiah 54:5, “Maker” is plural in Hebrew, lit., “Makers”; same with Psalm 149:2 where “Maker” is in the plural in Hebrew. The same can be said in Ecclesiastes 12:1, where the Hebrew literally reads, “Remember also your Creators” (plural in Heb.). Thus, because God is tri-personal He can be described as both “Maker” and “Makers” and as “Creator” and “Creators.” He is one Being, not one Person—a point that is repeatedly brought to bear by the OT authors.

 

[101G]

But, I do believe Jesus was God Himself.

that is 100% correct.

Titus 2:13 13 waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,

another correct Statement.

As far as the Trinity goes, I just look at Jesus baptism when all 3 are present and in accord. Yes, the voice out of heaven HAD to be God's, who else would say they were well pleased in their SON?

without looking this up in the bible, who is speaking here,?, listen, "And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.
first who is the "me", and was this God speaking from heaven concering Abraham Sacrifice of his Son.

Then, Genesis, in the beginning...You have the Spirit of God hovering back and forth over the waters. Then you have God (?) saying "let US make man in OUR image...just seems pretty self explanatory to me but then, I am no scholar! lol.

ok, see if this is self explanatory. Isaiah 44:24 "Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself".
is this not self explanatory when the LORD said he made all things, so in Genesis 1:26 when he said let us "MAKE" man is this meaning being alone? let's see. Genesis 5:1 "This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
Genesis 5:2 "Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created". ok, is "he" singular? yes. remember he said that he was "ALONE", and "BY HIMSELF".

PICJAG.

 

[Dave L]

that is 100% correct.

another correct Statement.

without looking this up in the bible, who is speaking here,?, listen, "And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.
first who is the "me", and was this God speaking from heaven concering Abraham Sacrifice of his Son.

ok, see if this is self explanatory. Isaiah 44:24 "Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself".
is this not self explanatory when the LORD said he made all things, so in Genesis 1:26 when he said let us "MAKE" man is this meaning being alone? let's see. Genesis 5:1 "This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
Genesis 5:2 "Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created". ok, is "he" singular? yes. remember he said that he was "ALONE", and "BY HIMSELF".

PICJAG.

Here's some more questions you should try to answer;

4. If God is unitarian, why is it that there are so many places in the Bible where the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are clearly distinguished from each other in the same verse?

Example, Paul says in 2 Corinthians 13:14, “The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.” Also see passages such as Matthew 3:17-17; 28:19; Luke 10:21-22; Galatians 4:6; Ephesians 2:18; 1 Thessalonians 1:3-6; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; Titus 3:5-7; 1 Peter 1:2-3; and Jude 1:20-21 where all three persons of the Trinity are referred—in the same verse or context.