Trinity vs. Tritheism: Understanding the Trinity.

[justbyfaith]

You are off on several points we can discuss later. But the most important is, you are blind to the nature of God as being three distinct persons of one Spirit in scripture. Which involves you in having the spirit of Antichrist. Jesus must be Triune as defined in the creeds to have come in the flesh. You replace him with a false split personality version of Christ considered heresy in the early church councils. Which means you do not believe he came in the flesh.

Even the AOG kicked you (Oneness Pentecostalism) out as heretics as did the entire Church in history.

Still blind and deaf to my statement that I believe in the Trinity, I see.

You are a Tritheist.

I believe in one God. And yes, He is three distinct Persons in my view; even though they are the same Person (1 Corinthians 12:4-6).

You speak evil of that which you don't understand (Jde 1:10, 2Pe 2:12).

 

[Dave L]

Still blind and deaf to my statement that I believe in the Trinity, I see.

You are a Tritheist.

I believe in one God. And yes, He is three distinct Persons in my view; even though they are the same Person (1 Corinthians 12:4-6).

You speak evil of that which you don't understand (Jde 1:10, 2Pe 2:12).

You reject the Christ of the bible, because you cannot see him as scripture sees him. You replace him with a false Jesus of your own making. One person 3 splits in personality = crazy. Just like Norman Bates who did the same in the movie Psycho.

 

[Dave L]

if what you say is true, then you can clear up the matter by answering the John 1:3 and Isaiah 44:24 question.

that will settle the one Person question once and for all.

the ball is in your court ... your answer by scripture, dave

PICJAG

“He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.” (John 1:2–3) (NASB95)

 

[CoreIssue]

If you understood the creeds, how they came about, and how they serve as an accurate guide through the bible, you would be blessed. They are a safety net you can check yourself against that will keep you from drinking someone else's Kool-aid.

On I do understand how they came about and what they say. Therefore I do not elevate them to biblical level life as you do.

You never addressed the creeds that elevate the Catholic Church.

 

[CoreIssue]

You reject the Christ of the bible, because you cannot see him as scripture sees him. You replace him with a false Jesus of your own making. One person 3 splits in personality = crazy. Just like Norman Bates who did the same in the movie Psycho.

That is modalism, not tritheism.

 

[Dave L]

On I do understand how they came about and what they say. Therefore I do not elevate them to biblical level life as you do.

You never addressed the creeds that elevate the Catholic Church.

I use them as a check for what I say. I've found errors in some of them but they generally make sure I don't stray off course, which is easy to do without them. You can read a book by one author and learn lots. But if you read a book, refined by centuries of debate against some of the best opponents, and then bank on the outcome being right, you have what makes up many of the historic creeds.

 

[Dave L]

That is modalism, not tritheism.

Exactly. They say God is crazy.

 

[CoreIssue]

I use them as a check for what I say. I've found errors in some of them but they generally make sure I don't stray off course, which is easy to do without them. You can read a book by one author and learn lots. But if you read a book, refined by centuries of debate against some of the best opponents, and then bank on the outcome being right, you have what makes up many of the historic creeds.

I use the Bible.

The creeds have not been refined over the centuries. The wording has not changed.

 

[Dave L]

I use the Bible.

The creeds have not been refined over the centuries. The wording has not changed.

They have withstood the test of time and prolonged debate.

 

[justbyfaith]

You reject the Christ of the bible, because you cannot see him as scripture sees him. You replace him with a false Jesus of your own making.

No, that is you. My understanding of the Trinity comes from many years of Bible reading with the doctrine of the Trinity on the backburner of my thinking

Exactly. They say God is crazy.

As I said before, you speak evil of that which you do not understand.

I do not say that God is crazy, I say that God became a Man. Not 1/3 of God, God.

God incarnated is the 2nd Person of the Trinity.

God in His preincarnate form is the 1st Person.

The 3rd Person developed out of the fact that Jesus said from the Cross, "Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit" and then gave up the ghost, back into eternity.

If you begin with a foundation of the Old Testament, you must surely see that it clearly states that there is one God.

Deu 6:4, Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

Mar 12:29, And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

That one Lord is the Father according to Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21.

Nevertheless it is also written,

1Co 12:3, Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

 

[Dave L]

No, that is you. My understanding of the Trinity comes from many years of Bible reading with the doctrine of the Trinity on the backburner of my thinking



As I said before, you speak evil of that which you do not understand.

I do not say that God is crazy, I say that God became a Man. Not 1/3 of God, God.

God incarnated is the 2nd Person of the Trinity.

God in His preincarnate form is the 1st Person.

The 3rd Person developed out of the fact that Jesus said from the Cross, "Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit" and then gave up the ghost, back into eternity.

If you begin with a foundation of the Old Testament, you must surely see that it clearly states that there is one God.

Deu 6:4, Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

Mar 12:29, And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

That one Lord is the Father according to Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21.

Nevertheless it is also written,

1Co 12:3, Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

Your concept of God aligns with Oneness Pentecostalism. It does not align with scripture. They are two different Christs.

The fact that the Assemblies of God threw your group out as heretics should speak volumes. You need to question those beliefs and see if you can prove them wrong as many so far have.

Former UPCI preacher, Dr. Gregory A. Boyd wrote: "Jesus is explicitly referred to as "the Son" over two hundred times in the New Testament and never once is he called "Father." By contrast, over two hundred times "the Father" is referred to by Jesus or someone else as being clearly distinct from Jesus. In fact, over fifty times this juxtapositioning of the Father and Jesus the Son is rendered explicit within the very same verse ... whereas one hundred seventy nine times Jesus is presented as referring to "the Father," "my Father," or "your Father" in the Gospels as distinct from himself, at no time does he refer to "my Son" or anything of the sort as distinct from himself! Forty times in John's Gospel, Jesus refers to himself as "sent by the Father," but never does he refer to himself as the Father who sent the Son." (Oneness Pentecostals and the Trinity, pp. 68-69)

 

[101G]

“He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.” (John 1:2–3) (NASB95)

first thanks for the reply, second, lets get the verse right, John 1:3 "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made". you said, "All things came into being through Him". you just told a bo bo, because, Isaiah 44:24 said that he was "ALONE" and "By Himself". meaning nothing came through him from soneone else.... :cool: listen, "Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself".

The "LORD" whom you say is YHWH=JESUS, is the same JESUS in John 1:3.

dave the bible is calling you a fabricator, better known as a "deceiver", the LORD, who is JESUS, and did you not say Jesus is the YHWH. well the LORD YHWH said that he was alone, and by himself.... do you know what "by himself", the same one person, Identical..... (smile), lol.

now if you're saying the person in John 1:3 is the same Person in Isaiah 44:24 then you aling yourself with the word of God, else you're a "deceiver", meaning ANTI-CHRIST....

so, since you cannot agree with the word of God then you're a "deceiver", meaning anti-Christ.

let's make it plain, did you not say JESUS=YHWH. and YHWH=the LORD, God almighty?. so John 1:3 is saying JESUS, YHWH, the LORD, made all things is the same person in Isaiah 44:24. else you have TWO creators........ in Isaiah 44:24 the LORD made all things, and was alone, and by himself when he did it.

so if anyone say that the Person in John 1:3 is "NOT" the same person in Isaiah 44:24 is a deciever, better known as a .... Revelation 2:2 "I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars"

PICJAG.

 

[Dave L]

first thanks for the reply, second, lets get the verse right, John 1:3 "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made". you said, "All things came into being through Him". you just told a bo bo, because, Isaiah 44:24 said that he was "ALONE" and "By Himself". meaning nothing came through him from soneone else.... :cool: listen, "Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself".

The "LORD" whom you say is YHWH=JESUS, is the same JESUS in John 1:3.

dave the bible is calling you a fabricator, better known as a "deceiver", the LORD, who is JESUS, and did you not say Jesus is the YHWH. well the LORD YHWH said that he was alone, and by himself.... do you know what "by himself", the same one person, Identical..... (smile), lol.

now if you're saying the person in John 1:3 is the same Person in Isaiah 44:24 then you aling yourself with the word of God, else you're a "deceiver", meaning ANTI-CHRIST....

so, since you cannot agree with the word of God then you're a "deceiver", meaning anti-Christ.

let's make it plain, did you not say JESUS=YHWH. and YHWH=the LORD, God almighty?. so John 1:3 is saying JESUS, YHWH, the LORD, made all things is the same person in Isaiah 44:24. else you have TWO creators........ in Isaiah 44:24 the LORD made all things, and was alone, and by himself when he did it.

so if anyone say that the Person in John 1:3 is "NOT" the same person in Isaiah 44:24 is a deciever, better known as a .... Revelation 2:2 "I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars"

PICJAG.

Maybe this will help you to see the errors of your way.

Former UPCI preacher, Dr. Gregory A. Boyd wrote:

"Jesus is explicitly referred to as "the Son" over two hundred times in the New Testament and never once is he called "Father." By contrast, over two hundred times "the Father" is referred to by Jesus or someone else as being clearly distinct from Jesus. In fact, over fifty times this juxtapositioning of the Father and Jesus the Son is rendered explicit within the very same verse ... whereas one hundred seventy nine times Jesus is presented as referring to "the Father," "my Father," or "your Father" in the Gospels as distinct from himself, at no time does he refer to "my Son" or anything of the sort as distinct from himself! Forty times in John's Gospel, Jesus refers to himself as "sent by the Father," but never does he refer to himself as the Father who sent the Son." (Oneness Pentecostals and the Trinity, pp. 68-69)

 

[101G]

Maybe this will help you to see the errors of your way.

Former UPCI preacher, Dr. Gregory A. Boyd wrote:

"Jesus is explicitly referred to as "the Son" over two hundred times in the New Testament and never once is he called "Father." By contrast, over two hundred times "the Father" is referred to by Jesus or someone else as being clearly distinct from Jesus. In fact, over fifty times this juxtapositioning of the Father and Jesus the Son is rendered explicit within the very same verse ... whereas one hundred seventy nine times Jesus is presented as referring to "the Father," "my Father," or "your Father" in the Gospels as distinct from himself, at no time does he refer to "my Son" or anything of the sort as distinct from himself! Forty times in John's Gospel, Jesus refers to himself as "sent by the Father," but never does he refer to himself as the Father who sent the Son." (Oneness Pentecostals and the Trinity, pp. 68-69)

we can end that deception right now,

"Jesus is explicitly referred to as "the Son" over two hundred times in the New Testament and never once is he called "Father."

Isaiah 9:6 "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace".
this is clear as day, "the Everlasting "FATHER".

but let's check the NT, 2 Corinthians 6:17 "Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
2 Corinthians 6:18 "And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

ok dave who is the Lord Almighty?

see, he's Father without flesh according to the Spirit. son, with flesh, according to the seed of David..... :cool:

now if you have any beef with those scriptures, take it to God in Prayer

 

[Dave L]

we can end that deception right now,

Isaiah 9:6 "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace".
this is clear as day, "the Everlasting "FATHER".

but let's check the NT, 2 Corinthians 6:17 "Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
2 Corinthians 6:18 "And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

ok dave who is the Lord Almighty?

see, he's Father without flesh according to the Spirit. son, with flesh, according to the seed of David..... :cool:

now if you have any beef with those scriptures, take it to God in Prayer

How can two persons be one person without being a split personality? Two persons are two persons, that's how. You created a psycho god and try to prove your "crazy" ideas from scripture while ignoring most of it.

 

[101G]

How can two persons be one person without being a split personality? Two persons are two persons, that's how. You created a psycho god and try to prove your "crazy" ideas from scripture while ignoring most of it.

HOW CAN, , .... God can do anything, but did you not HEAR?, God is not two Persons, and definitly not three Persons, but ONE PERSON....

again, did you not hear? let's say it again, according to Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words G243 Allos, expresses a numerical difference and denotes another of the same sort".
the answer, right in your face.

that's why you cannot understand "diversified Oneness". because the answer is right before your face... (smile).

good day

PICJAG.

 

[Dave L]

HOW CAN, , .... God can do anything, but did you not HEAR?, God is not two Persons, and definitly not three Persons, but ONE PERSON....

again, did you not hear? let's say it again, according to Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words G243 Allos, expresses a numerical difference and denotes another of the same sort".
the answer, right in your face.

that's why you cannot understand "diversified Oneness". because the answer is right before your face... (smile).

good day

PICJAG.

My how we stumble and wrest the scriptures to our own destruction, ending up with a Norman Bates style "psycho Jesus" in place of God, rather than admit the truth. Have you ever dabbled in the occult? Even at an early age?

 

[justbyfaith]

Former UPCI preacher, Dr. Gregory A. Boyd wrote: "Jesus is explicitly referred to as "the Son" over two hundred times in the New Testament and never once is he called "Father." By contrast, over two hundred times "the Father" is referred to by Jesus or someone else as being clearly distinct from Jesus. In fact, over fifty times this juxtapositioning of the Father and Jesus the Son is rendered explicit within the very same verse ... whereas one hundred seventy nine times Jesus is presented as referring to "the Father," "my Father," or "your Father" in the Gospels as distinct from himself, at no time does he refer to "my Son" or anything of the sort as distinct from himself! Forty times in John's Gospel, Jesus refers to himself as "sent by the Father," but never does he refer to himself as the Father who sent the Son." (Oneness Pentecostals and the Trinity, pp. 68-69)

"Jesus is explicitly referred to as "the Son" over two hundred times in the New Testament and never once is he called "Father." By contrast, over two hundred times "the Father" is referred to by Jesus or someone else as being clearly distinct from Jesus. In fact, over fifty times this juxtapositioning of the Father and Jesus the Son is rendered explicit within the very same verse ... whereas one hundred seventy nine times Jesus is presented as referring to "the Father," "my Father," or "your Father" in the Gospels as distinct from himself, at no time does he refer to "my Son" or anything of the sort as distinct from himself! Forty times in John's Gospel, Jesus refers to himself as "sent by the Father," but never does he refer to himself as the Father who sent the Son." (Oneness Pentecostals and the Trinity, pp. 68-69)

The primary example of a place in the New Testament where this occurs is in 1 Corinthians 8:6. Let us take a look at this, shall we?

1Co 8:6, But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Now it is clear, first of all, from this and other verses, that there is one God, the Father, and that there is one Lord, Jesus Christ.

Now assuming that Jesus is not the Father, He would be one Lord apart from the Father and the Father would be one God apart from Him. There would be the 1 God = the Father and the 1 Lord = Jesus Christ. This verse would appear to be denying the Deity of Jesus Christ, saying that He is the 1 Lord and not the 1 God.

So now, are you going to become a Jehovah's Witness rather than look into the scriptural evidence that the Father is the Lord and that Jesus is the one God? And rather than believe the truth, that there is one Lord (Ephesians 4:5), even the Father (Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21)---and His name is Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 12:3)?

How can two persons be one person without being a split personality? Two persons are two persons, that's how. You created a psycho god and try to prove your "crazy" ideas from scripture while ignoring most of it.

The answer to your psycho-dilemna is that the one Person, God, took on an added nature of humanity; and that this Person, being the continuation of the former, is distinct from the former and yet the same Person. The only thing preventing you from seeing this is that you probably somehow want to believe that God was originally 3 persons in eternity and that one of the 3 came down to become flesh and die for us. This is not the case. The Father came Himself. There are a few passages in Isaiah where God says that there is no God beside Him...but I will leave you to come across them in your regular devotional reading of Isaiah. If there is no God beside Him, then that means there is one God dwelling in eternity...and that if there is a God existing beside Him, that God is none other than Him...a reflection in the mirror, perhaps? But I would say more accurately that he descended into time and then ascended to again inhabit eternity in a body of human flesh...so they are the same Person and yet distinct from each other...they inhabit eternity side-by-side, while they are the same Person...because the Father became the Son in taking on an added nature of human flesh.

A few verses that I thought of because of your original question, just above:

Isa 55:8, For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
Isa 55:9, For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

1Co 2:14, But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

This is not to say that the real Trinity is something that we cannot understand. The truth of the matter is really very simple and easy to understand, once you become able to accept it. I believe that in the debates concerning the formulation of the creeds, the people who had the truth must have simply left off debating at some point, leaving the blind to be leaders of the blind.

But that the truth is a simple deal is very evident from scripture:

2Co 11:3, But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

 

[101G]

My how we stumble and wrest the scriptures to our own destruction, ending up with a Norman Bates style "psycho Jesus" in place of God, rather than admit the truth. Have you ever dabbled in the occult? Even at an early age?

so again, we can take this as you cannot answer our question.....

and talking about admitting the TRUTH, you don't know what the TRUTH to admit to it....

PICJAG.

 

[Dave L]

so again, we can take this as you cannot answer our question.....

and talking about admitting the TRUTH, you don't know what the TRUTH to admit to it....

PICJAG.

The only thing I am willing to do is to point out where your rejection of the biblical Christ leads. And you end up with an Antichrist depiction of him not coming in the flesh. But an impostor instead. And instead of recognizing the clearly stated scriptural representation of God being three distinct persons of one spirit, you make him over into one person with a split personality not unlike any crazy person out there. This is blasphemy and a damnable heresy.