Tribulation saints

[Taken]

In the KJV, one will never find the words "THE" Great Tribulation", just as one also will never find:
"THE" Antichrist
"The" Rapture
"THE" Millennium
When one places the word "THE" in front of a topic, they suddenly make that topic to be a "doctrine of pivot", whereby other doctrines or topics must agree with it. However, if they don't, then the truthful interpretations of those other doctrines, must be shifted or changed, in order to be in line with that "doctrine of pivot".
Earburner.

Sorry simple knowledge is so confusing for you.

The Antichrist ~
2 Thes 2
[3] Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
[4] ("he") Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.


The Rapture ~ the CATCHING UP of those IN CHRIST, TO Christ, IN THE CLOUDS.
1 Thes 4:
[14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
[15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


The Millennium ~
Rev 20:
[7] And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison...

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[farouk]

@Taken Thanks for the 'like'. Some distinctions in Scripture are really very clear.

 

[Taken]

I realize that's what you've been taught from men's doctrine of a pre-trib rapture theory, but that is not what God's Holy Writ teaches.

Jesus gave 7 main signs of the end of this world in His Olivet discourse. Those signs parallel the Seals He gave in Revelation 6. His Book of Revelation He gave His Church through His Apostle John.

The men you're listening to are false.

You have not YET figured out...
The "GREAT" Tribulation is ABOUT GODS ANGER...(which is displayed BY Gods WRATH!)
FOR DISBELIEF IN Christ Jesus!

You have not YET figured out...
God is NOT ANGRY toward MEN who "ARE" "IN" Christ.

You have NOT ONE Scripture of Evidence, FOR MEN "IN" Christ being APPOINTED to suffer Gods Wrath DURING the "GREAT" Tribulation.

Glory To God,
Taken

 

[Earburner]

2 Thes 2
[3] Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
[4] ("he") Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Textus Receptus Greek (KJV) does not use the word "that", but rather "the", which allows it to be read and understood in the plural, with the remainder of the context of 2 Thes. 2
Thes 2
[3] Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
[4] Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
Bible hub:


Bible > Greek > 2 Thessalonians 2:3
◄ 2 Thessalonians 2:3 ►
Text Analysis
Parallel Greek
Strong's Greek English Morphology
apokalyphthē shall have been revealed V-ASP-3S
3588 [e] ὁ
ho the Art-NMS
444 [e] ἄνθρωπος
anthrōpos man N-NMS
.
2 Thessalonians 2:3- Stephanus Textus Receptus:
3 μή τις ὑμᾶς ἐξαπατήσῃ κατὰ μηδένα τρόπον ὅτι ἐὰν μὴ ἔλθῃ ἡ ἀποστασία πρῶτον καὶ ἀποκαλυφθῇ ὁ ἄνθρωπος τῆς ἁμαρτίας, ὁ υἱὸς τῆς ἀπωλείας
.
The word "that" is an insertion by the translators of the KJV, which forces one to read that scripture in the singular.
BTW the KJV was translated right in the middle of the Protestant Reformation, when the Pope was being called by them as antichrist!

 

[Taken]

@Taken Thanks for the 'like'. Some distinctions in Scripture are really very clear.

Hi ~ you are welcome.

"IN Christ"...""IN Christ"...."IN Christ"....

A man IS either "IN Christ"
Or
He ISN'T.

Seems some people do Not Comprehend the
Magnitude of a man who "IS" "IN Christ".

Neither do they Understand a Great deal of the Scriptures NO LONG APPLY, to a man...
"IN Christ".

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[farouk]

Hi ~ you are welcome.

"IN Christ"...""IN Christ"...."IN Christ"....

A man IS either "IN Christ"
Or
He ISN'T.

Seems some people do Not Comprehend the
Magnitude of a man who "IS" "IN Christ".

Neither do they Understand a Great deal of the Scriptures NO LONG APPLY, to a man...
"IN Christ".

Glory to God,
Taken

1 Corinthians 10.32 speaks of Jews, Gentiles and the church of God. Lumping them together as a prerequisite to schemes of Scripture interpretation is likely to lead to a lot of confusion.

 

[Taken]

Textus Receptus Greek (KJV) does not use the word "that", but rather "the", which allows it to be read and understood in the plural, with the remainder of the context of 2 Thes. 2
Thes 2
[3] Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
[4] Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
Bible hub:


Bible > Greek > 2 Thessalonians 2:3
◄ 2 Thessalonians 2:3 ►
Text Analysis
Parallel Greek
Strong's Greek English Morphology
apokalyphthē shall have been revealed V-ASP-3S
3588 [e] ὁ
ho the Art-NMS
444 [e] ἄνθρωπος
anthrōpos man N-NMS
.
2 Thessalonians 2:3- Stephanus Textus Receptus:
3 μή τις ὑμᾶς ἐξαπατήσῃ κατὰ μηδένα τρόπον ὅτι ἐὰν μὴ ἔλθῃ ἡ ἀποστασία πρῶτον καὶ ἀποκαλυφθῇ ὁ ἄνθρωπος τῆς ἁμαρτίας, ὁ υἱὸς τῆς ἀπωλείας
.
The word "that" is an insertion by the translators of the KJV, which forces one to read that scripture in the singular.

"The" Pope, PLURAL?

There is ONLY ONE Pope at a time with authorative power.

BTW the KJV was translated right in the middle of the Protestant Reformation, when the Pope was being called by them as antichrist!

BTW, Many people Believe Christ Jesus IS THE SUPREME head of the Church...

Not the Pope, as Catholics declared!

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

1 Corinthians 10.32 speaks of Jews, Gentiles and the church of God. Lumping them together as a prerequisite to schemes of Scripture interpretation is likely to lead to a lot of confusion.

Every natural born person Begins their life AGAINST God...that is a human mans natural born fate.

And every natural born person IS Israel or a Gentile....that was Gods Division.

Jesus' Division "IS";
Israel WHO Believes IN God AND Jesus Christ
AND
Gentiles WHO Believes IN God And Christ Jesus.

The "GREAT" Tribulation "IS" Precisely ABOUT Gods "ANGER"...which IS HIS WRATH.

HOW Preachers can Brainwash Another to BELIEVE "Thee Lord God Almighty"...
Is ANGRY at men WHO BELIEVE "IN";
God and Christ Jesus...verges on the edge of
Disbelief and Trust "IN" The Lord God Himself.

God Destroyed the Earth WITH the Earth, during the Flood, and Lifted UP the Sav-ED Above the Face of the Earth...

Guess some People can not fathom the POWER of the Lord God to Again Destroy the Earth WITH the Earth, and LIFT UP the Sav-ED Above the Face of the Earth...

Gen 6
[13] And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

Gen 7
[23] And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.

Gen 7
[17] And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth.

Matt 24
[37] But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

1 Thes 5
[9] For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ...


1Thes.4
[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

1 Corinthians 10.32 speaks of Jews, Gentiles and the church of God. Lumping them together as a prerequisite to schemes of Scripture interpretation is likely to lead to a lot of confusion.

Israel has 6,000 years of teaching and belief ABOUT and IN Thee God.

2,000 years ago...
Israel and the Gentiles were presented a whole new Concept...

Gentiles being introduced to Thee SON of God AND God at the SAME time.

Israel being introduced to THEIR Christ Messiah. (A homeless man, without wealth or status) !!

It is a WEIRD approach how many Gentiles think the NEW Testament is ALL ABOUT "Christians"...when a great deal of the NT is about introducing Israel TO Chirst Jesus...and a great deal of Warnings of the Consequences of Rejecting Him....

They have suffered the Consequences for the past 2,000 years, and will continue, through the Opening of the Seals, BY the LAMB of God, His Wrath upon them for REJECTING Jesus their Christ Messiah; and they shall Be sav-ED, but MUST suffer a Physical Death.

Rev 6
[9] And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
[10] And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
[11] And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Rev 6
[16] And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

Curious thing that anyone IN Christ, believes he is appointed to SUFFER WRATH, AFTER having Believed and BECOME SAV-ED.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[OzSpen]

καὶ εἴρηκα αὐτῷ, Κύριέ, σὺ οἶδας. καὶ εἶπέ μοι, Οὗτοί εἰσιν οἱ ἐρχόμενοι ἐκ τῆς θλίψεως τῆς μεγάλης, (the tribulation, the great) καὶ ἔπλυναν τὰς στολὰς αὐτῶν καὶ ἐλεύκαναν αὐτὰς ἐν τῷ αἵματι τοῦ ἀρνίου. (Rev 7:14)

Enoch,

'Οὗτοί εἰσιν οἱ ἐρχόμενοι ἐκ τῆς θλίψεως τῆς μεγάλης' (Rev 7:14) is literally translated 'these are the (ones) coming out of the tribulation, the great'. ἐρχόμενοι (erchomenoi) is a present tense, middle voice, participle that presents the idea of continuing or repeated coming out. Coming out of what? The great tribulation!

To state that <<In the KJV, one will never find the words "THE" Great Tribulation">> (you did not state this) demonstrates how the KJV mistranslated Rev 7:14 from the Greek Text. The Textus Receptus on which the KJV of 1611 was based give in Rev 7:14 the same Greek construction as for later Greek NTs.

For anyone to state that there is no 'great tribulation' in the NT avoids the clear teaching of the Greek text from the Textus Receptus to NT Greek texts used in modern translations.

The Geneva Bible of 1599, which is earlier than the KJV, translates Rev 7:14 as 'And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb'. Charles commented: 'The martyrs are still arriving from the scene of the great tribulation' (in A T Robertson 1933:353).

In fact, the NKJV translates Rev 7:14 as, 'So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb'.

Sadly, the KJV of 1611 is an inaccurate translation of τῆς θλίψεως τῆς μεγάλης when it does not translate as 'the great tribulation'.

Oz

 

[Earburner]

καὶ εἴρηκα αὐτῷ, Κύριέ, σὺ οἶδας. καὶ εἶπέ μοι, Οὗτοί εἰσιν οἱ ἐρχόμενοι ἐκ τῆς θλίψεως τῆς μεγάλης, (the tribulation, the great) καὶ ἔπλυναν τὰς στολὰς αὐτῶν καὶ ἐλεύκαναν αὐτὰς ἐν τῷ αἵματι τοῦ ἀρνίου. (Rev 7:14)

Stephanus Textus Receptus 1550
καὶ εἴρηκα αὐτῷ Κύριέ σὺ οἶδας καὶ εἶπέν μοι Οὗτοί εἰσιν οἱ ἐρχόμενοι ἐκ τῆς θλίψεως τῆς μεγάλης καὶ ἔπλυναν τὰς στολὰς αὐτῶν καὶ ἐλεύκαναν στολὰς αὐτῶν ἐν τῷ αἵματι τοῦ ἀρνίου
> your Greek rendition checks out with my search.
In that I would tend to agree with you, but in relation to the context of the KJV-NT and the correct understanding of the prophecy of "70 weeks" in Daniel, I find that most all of Christendom has put their spin on it, because of erroneously attaching one prophetic week of time at the end of this age, instead of allowing the week of the Messiah to follow through.
By and large, that prophecy of 70 weeks was fulfilled by 70AD.
The only part of it that is still playing out is that of Dan. 9:27...and for the overspreading of abominations he [Jesus] shall make it [Israel/Jerusalem] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
> For all intent and purposes, in God's eyes, Israel as a nation should not exist!

.

"The" Pope, PLURAL?

There is ONLY ONE Pope at a time with authorative power.



BTW, Many people Believe Christ Jesus IS THE SUPREME head of the Church...

Not the Pope, as Catholics declared!

Glory to God,
Taken

Don't twist what I mean.
OK, I forgot the letter "s" for PopeS

My meaning is, the protestant attitude among the Protestants at that time was the PopeS were of "that spirit of antichrist".
Therefore, for the translators of the KJV to change a word from "the" to "that", it would be a tremendous influence to help their cause, which was to leave the RCC. What better way to do it, than to bring scripture (though manipulated) along side to assist.

 

[Taken]

Stephanus Textus Receptus 1550
καὶ εἴρηκα αὐτῷ Κύριέ σὺ οἶδας καὶ εἶπέν μοι Οὗτοί εἰσιν οἱ ἐρχόμενοι ἐκ τῆς θλίψεως τῆς μεγάλης καὶ ἔπλυναν τὰς στολὰς αὐτῶν καὶ ἐλεύκαναν στολὰς αὐτῶν ἐν τῷ αἵματι τοῦ ἀρνίου
> your Greek rendition checks out with my search.
In that I would tend to agree with you, but in relation to the context of the KJV-NT and the correct understanding of the prophecy of "70 weeks" in Daniel, I find that most all of Christendom has put their spin on it, because of erroneously attaching one prophetic week of time at the end of this age, instead of allowing the week of the Messiah to follow through.
By and large, that prophecy of 70 weeks was fulfilled by 70AD.
The only part of it that is still playing out is that of Dan. 9:27...and for the overspreading of abominations he [Jesus] shall make it [Israel/Jerusalem] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
> For all intent and purposes, in God's eyes, Israel as a nation should not exist!

.

Don't twist what I mean.
OK, I forgot the letter "s" for PopeS

My meaning is, the protestant attitude among the Protestants at that time was the PopeS were of "that spirit of antichrist".
Therefore, for the translators of the KJV to change a word from "the" to "that", it would be a tremendous influence to help their cause, which was to leave the RCC. What better way to do it, than to bring scripture (though manipulated) along side to assist.

The pope and popes at that time AND Today;
Are Thought "By Catholics" TO BE;
"Thee Head of "The" Church".

I believe Jesus Christ "IS" Thee Head of "The" Church.

BTW God did not Declare "ISRAEL" a NATION.
God Declared Jacob's Name "ISRAEL"
AND
"ISRAEL" A People...Gods People.

For all intent and purposes, in God's eyes, Israel as a nation should not exist!

That tiny strip of LAND today is called Israel, as declared BY MEN.

And THE "LAND", as Declared By God;
The LAND (beyond that tiny strip) is an Inheritance to ALL WHO ARE OF the SEED of Abraham AND the SEED of God.

And "IF" you ARE of the SEED of Abraham AND the SEED of God...you also would be ENTITLED to receiving thee Inheritance of LAND God Promised to "those' people.

Are you? Of the Seed of Abraham AND the Seed of God?

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Earburner]

Enoch,

'Οὗτοί εἰσιν οἱ ἐρχόμενοι ἐκ τῆς θλίψεως τῆς μεγάλης' (Rev 7:14) is literally translated 'these are the (ones) coming out of the tribulation, the great'. ἐρχόμενοι (erchomenoi) is a present tense, middle voice, participle that presents the idea of continuing or repeated coming out. Coming out of what? The great tribulation!

To state that <<In the KJV, one will never find the words "THE" Great Tribulation">> (you did not state this) demonstrates how the KJV mistranslated Rev 7:14 from the Greek Text. The Textus Receptus on which the KJV of 1611 was based give in Rev 7:14 the same Greek construction as for later Greek NTs.

For anyone to state that there is no 'great tribulation' in the NT avoids the clear teaching of the Greek text from the Textus Receptus to NT Greek texts used in modern translations.

The Geneva Bible of 1599, which is earlier than the KJV, translates Rev 7:14 as 'And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb'. Charles commented: 'The martyrs are still arriving from the scene of the great tribulation' (in A T Robertson 1933:353).

In fact, the NKJV translates Rev 7:14 as, 'So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb'.

Sadly, the KJV of 1611 is an inaccurate translation of τῆς θλίψεως τῆς μεγάλης when it does not translate as 'the great tribulation'.

Oz

Given the fact that the Greek Texts are different in the ways of presenting Rev. 7:14, I conclude that the latter portion of that scripture precisely interprets the former portion to be "come out of great tribulation".
To force it to be erroneously interpreted as "THE Great Tribulation", means one has not resolved the clarity of what is directly connected to it, which is by the word "and":
"and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb'.
That statement is pointedly telling of whom it is that are involved with "great tribulation".
Shall any you say that there were not many Saints and martyrs down through centuries, who have not suffered "great tribulation" in Rev. 7:14??
I dare say that you can't!
.
Therefore, that latter portion of verse14 describes that "great tribulation" is not isolated to ONLY Christians at the very end of God's Age of Grace, but rather all christians, in all generations, have suffered "great tribulation", ever since Pentecost!!
.
To isolate the words "great tribulation", to only the last day christians, is a foul understanding, and is solely derived from a most obvious error, in the interpretation of the "70 Weeks" in Daniel.
The majority of the churches have fallen victim to that LIE of attaching a so called "missing week" and placing at the end of the last days, thus fabricating, what THEY foolishly call "The 7 year Great Tribulation".
.
Now you know how it is that you falsely believe!!

 

[Enoch111]

The majority of the churches have fallen victim to that LIE of attaching a so called "missing week" and placing at the end of the last days, thus fabricating, what THEY foolishly call "The 7 year Great Tribulation".

There is neither foolishness nor fabrication in concluding that Daniel's 70th week of seven years is yet in the future. It is tied solidly to the setting up of the Abomination of Desolation and the reign of the Antichrist for 3 1/2 years (the first half of 7 years). And the Great Tribulation is triggered by the Abomination of Desolation. See Matthew 24.

 

[Earburner]

The pope and popes at that time AND Today;
Are Thought "By Catholics" TO BE;
"Thee Head of "The" Church".

I believe Jesus Christ "IS" Thee Head of "The" Church.

BTW God did not Declare "ISRAEL" a NATION.
God Declared Jacob's Name "ISRAEL"
AND
"ISRAEL" A People...Gods People.



That tiny strip of LAND today is called Israel, as declared BY MEN.

And THE "LAND", as Declared By God;
The LAND (beyond that tiny strip) is an Inheritance to ALL WHO ARE OF the SEED of Abraham AND the SEED of God.

And "IF" you ARE of the SEED of Abraham AND the SEED of God...you also would be ENTITLED to receiving thee Inheritance of LAND God Promised to "those' people.

Are you? Of the Seed of Abraham AND the Seed of God?

Glory to God,
Taken

By the seed of his Holy Spirit, I am by having faith in Jesus, of the seed of Abraham, who also believed God, and did lived by faith.

 

[Earburner]

There is neither foolishness nor fabrication in concluding that Daniel's 70th week of seven years is yet in the future. It is tied solidly to the setting up of the Abomination of Desolation and the reign of the Antichrist for 3 1/2 years (the first half of 7 years). And the Great Tribulation is triggered by the Abomination of Desolation. See Matthew 24.

If I were to tell you what the AoD was and when, you would temporarily lose your mind, and then deny it!

 

[Earburner]

That tiny strip of LAND today is called Israel, as declared BY MEN.

Correct! Since the KoG was taken from the Jews, God cares not for its establishment as a nation, but rather only those individual Jews, who will come to Him through Jesus NOW, in His Age of Grace.

 

[OzSpen]

Given the fact that the Greek Texts are different in the ways of presenting Rev. 7:14, I conclude that the latter portion of that scripture precisely interprets the former portion to be "come out of great tribulation".
To force it to be erroneously interpreted as "THE Great Tribulation", means one has not resolved the clarity of what is directly connected to it, which is by the word "and":

Earburner,

Do you know and understand Greek grammar?

What are the meanings of the definite articles in Rev 7:14, καὶ εἴρηκα αὐτῷ· Κύριέ μου, σὺ οἶδας. καὶ εἶπέν μοι· Οὗτοί εἰσιν οἱ ἐρχόμενοι ἐκ τῆς θλίψεως τῆς μεγάλης, καὶ ἔπλυναν τὰς στολὰς αὐτῶν καὶ ἐλεύκαναν αὐτὰς ἐν τῷ αἵματι τοῦ ἀρνίου?

Please show me where the Greek texts of the Textus Receptus and the United Bible Societies Text are different?

Oz

 

[Earburner]

Earburner,

Do you know and understand Greek grammar?

What are the meanings of the definite articles in Rev 7:14, καὶ εἴρηκα αὐτῷ· Κύριέ μου, σὺ οἶδας. καὶ εἶπέν μοι· Οὗτοί εἰσιν οἱ ἐρχόμενοι ἐκ τῆς θλίψεως τῆς μεγάλης, καὶ ἔπλυναν τὰς στολὰς αὐτῶν καὶ ἐλεύκαναν αὐτὰς ἐν τῷ αἵματι τοῦ ἀρνίου?

Please show me where the Greek texts of the Textus Receptus and the United Bible Societies Text are different?

Oz

i didn't. I agreed with you. However in relation to all the other G. Texts, it appears that one can choose as one pleases.
So then, given that to be so, the latter part of that verse describes just exactly who is involved in "great tribulation". Though the former part may be anybody's choice, the latter proves that "great tribulation" has taken place in all generations since Pentecost.

 

[Earburner]

Translation from Greek to English is not just about literal words, but requires spiritual discernment to fully comprehend the surrounding context.
.
I repeat what I had said in a previous post:
"Therefore, that latter portion of verse14 describes that "great tribulation" is not isolated to ONLY Christians at the very end of God's Age of Grace, but rather all christians, in all generations, have suffered "great tribulation", ever since Pentecost!!"