They will reign with Him a thousand years and making an unknown Greek out of the English New Testament

[Zao is life]

Is quoting exactly what you said (regarding a resurrection being spoken of by Paul in Ephesians 2:4-6). You did agree, Fullness of the Gentiles. You may take it back now; certainly, you can do as you please... as if you needed my permission to do that or something...

Grace and peace to you, Fullness of the Gentiles.

Copy @Davidpt

No, @PinSeeker I did not say what you falsely claim you are quoting and what you falsely claim I said. Here are the posts, quoted below: See my post #381 which was in reply to your post #330

I made it very, very clear that I did not agree with you. At no point subsequent to that did I backtrack or contradict what I said, nor say anything that should have given you the impression that I agreed with you.

You have falsely assumed that I agreed with you, eisegetically reading that into whatever I said to you, and IMO in doing so you have also shown that you misread scripture using your own Amil eisegetical interpretation of a passage to read things into the passage, and then make a false statement about what it says. Then you believe that you have proved what you are saying, so then in your mind whatever I answer must be in agreement with your eiesegetical interpretation of the scripture.

LOL. It's no wonder you misread what I said as me "agreeing with you" regarding what you said. You're good at eisegesis!

See the posts below. As I said, at no point subsequent to my reply to your post below did I backtrack or contradict what I said, nor say anything that should have given you the impression that I agreed with you.​

Just one thing to… all this… :) Sorry, just having a little good-natured fun with you… :)

Okay, so, you say that in Ephesians 2:4-6, Paul, in saying we have been raised, is indeed speaking of a resurrection. And it is we (believers) who have been resurrected. That’s great! I wholeheartedly agree. Okay, so, that we have been raised ~ he’s writing in the past tense, there, FOTG. Do you believe the Romans he was writing to had already been physically/bodily resurrected? And likewise, you and I have been made alive, and this letter is just as applicable, by extension, to you and me. So, by the same token, do you believe that you and I have been physically/bodily resurrected?

Grace and peace to you.

In Christ, yes. In our bodies, no - and it's only the bodily resurrection mentioned in the second part of that statement. The first part has to do with quickening by the Spirit.

Jesus said whoever believes has passed from death to life. He did not say "raised" from death to life.

See my OP in this thread. The Greek words used for being raised and resurrection without exception in the New Testament refer to the resurrection of the body.

We speak about being "dead spiritually" when we were born into this world, and Paul says the body is dead because of sin (Romans 8:10), but spiritually we had no eternal life to begin with when we were born into the world - not until we were born of the Spirit (quickened).

We simply had no eternal life when we were born into the world that we had died from so that we could be "raised" from spiritual death. Paul says the Spirit will quicken our dead-in-sin bodies in Romans 8:11) Ephesians makes a distinction:

"But God, who is rich in mercy, for His great love with which He loved us, even us being dead in sins,

(1) He has syzōopoiéō (quickened together with) Christ, (by grace ye are saved);

(2) and has synegeírō (raised us up together), and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Ephesians 2:4-6).

The word syzōopoiéō refers to being made alive ("quickened") together with the Spirit's quickening of Christ after He died, by the same Spirit of God breathing life into a person. The word synegeírō refers to being raised up bodily together with Christ's bodily resurrection from death.

The "spiritual resurrection" that many claim we received when we were born (gennao) of the Spirit i.e quickened by the Spirit does not equate to rising from death because we had no eternal life at all to begin with:

John 3:3
Jesus answered and said to him, Truly, truly, I say to you, Unless a man is born [gennáō] again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

[*StrongsGreek*]
01080
γεννάω gennáō, ghen-nah'-o
from a variation of 1085;
to procreate (properly, of the father, but by extension of the mother); figuratively, to regenerate:--bear, beget, be born, bring forth, conceive, be delivered of, gender, make, spring.

We had no eternal life until God breathed His Spirit into us. We had a body though, and that body was dead in our sin and dying, but is also given life (quickened) by the Spirit and the body that we had will become the seed of the resurrected body after it dies.

Our bodies will die, but we did not die spiritually before we were born of the Spirit (quickened). We did not rise from the dead spiritually (so-called "spiritual resurrection") when we were born of the Spirit.

Quickened and bodily raised together with Christ

BORN OF GOD. QUICKENED TOGETHER WITH CHRIST'S QUICKENING, AND BODILY RAISED TOGETHER WITH CHRIST'S BODILY RESURRECTION M ankind was created...

zaoislife.blogspot.com

 

[rwb]

And what happens to that spiritual resurrection if we factor in not once saved always saved? Of course though, if memory serves me, you don't believe NOSAS is Biblical to begin with. Yet, the following example clearly, undeniably, proves NOSAS is 100% Biblical.

Romans 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Is one going to argue that for a Gentile to be graffed into the the good olive tree here, that it does not mean one is saved?

Is one going to argue that God will never cut off any Gentile for any reason once a Gentile is graffed in?

Is one going to argue that if a Gentile does get cut off, for whatever reasons, they remain saved, regardless?

Is one going to argue that if a Gentile does get cut off, for whatever reasons, that they can be graffed in yet again?

This latter question implying God is being mocked if God cuts off a Gentile and that that same Gentile thinks they can be graffed in yet again.

Galatians 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

Anyone that might want to argue any of those things is not someone I care to listen to. None of those arguments are valid, period. Nothing to debate or dispute. Clearly then, NOSAS is Biblical, period. And since it is Biblical, Amil cannot be true since this would mean that after having part in the first resurrection one can lose part in it. That's absurd. This can't happen if the first resurrection is bodily, though. No one can lose part in it after having been bodily raised. IOW, it is already decided prior to the first resurrection if one remained saved or not. And if they didn't, they don't have part in the first resurrection to begin with.

Paul tells us those cut off from the good olive tree were cut off through unbelief. The same is true for those who claim to belong to the Church through hearing the Gospel of the Kingdom through Christ. If in time they show they too lack faith, they too shall be cut off. They may go their entire time of living on this earth, which is symbolized a thousand years, thinking and making others believe they are of faith and belong, but in the end God knows who belong to Him, and those who do not shall be cut off through unbelief in the same way those of Old were cut off from the nation, that was, before Christ came the representation of the Kingdom of God on earth.

Once again you come with another question without responding to the FACT that John writes the martyred saints lived and reigned with Christ before they were killed a thousand years. And he also speaks of others who shall reign with Christ during the same time a thousand years. How can everyone who shall be saved through Christ live during this time of a thousand years unless John is using a thousand years to symbolize the whole age of time that shall be no longer when the seventh trumpet begins to sound?

 

[rwb]

I’m not arguing for the Amill position but someone who taught me years ago saw this as Gentiles being grafted in for the millennium and after the millennium is over they are broken off, deceived.

Jews of faith and Gentiles of faith belong to the everlasting Kingdom of God if they come into the Kingdom of God through Christ, who is the first resurrection who would never die again. How can one be grafted into the everlasting Kingdom of God and then be cut off from the everlasting Kingdom of God? Will God realize after one thousand literal years that He goofed, and He should not have allowed them in? That makes Him without ability to know who belongs to Him!!!

 

[rwb]

That sounds like something I can see making sense per Amil, except Amils apparently don't see it making sense. Per Amil it could mean the ones that fall away(2 Thessalonians 2:3) are the ones meant in Revelation 20:7-9. Towards the end of the thousand years assuming this scenario, all of these are saved. Then after the thousand years they fall away because they end up worshiping the beast rather than continuing to worship the Creator.

If Amils taught things like that, I might be more inclined to think there could be something to the Amil view after all. The way they currently reason some of these things makes zero sense to me even if Premil is not the correct position but that Amil is. After all, it's not like there will be no falling away(2 Thessalonians 2:3). It's not like, what I brought up per Romans 11, that this does not undeniably prove not once saved always saved is indeed Biblical. Keeping in mind as well, one can't fall away from something they never had part in to begin with. It's a no brainer then, NOSAS is Biblical, and that anyone who teaches otherwise are liars and deceivers in regards to that in particular.

During man's time on this earth there will always be those who say and even themselves believe they have come into the everlasting Kingdom of God in heaven through Christ and have been born again of His Spirit. Many, after a lifetime of believing they were of the spiritual Kingdom of God will be called to stand before God at the judgment throne to hear Him say, "depart from Me, I never knew you." God says this to those who professed to having done many good deeds in His name. In this Christ is warning those who profess His name, and claim to be saved not to think their good deeds shall eternally save them. Salvation comes from God alone! We are called to do good deeds in His name, but we must be aware of thinking that doing these good deeds is how we are saved, and forget we are saved by grace through faith that is the gift of God, and we are not eternally saved by works we do.

John given understanding of life after physical death is proving the life we have in Christ is forever just as Christ tells us. That's why he writes that they had lived and reigned with Christ during this symbolic time he writes a thousand years. Exactly the same amount of symbolic time when Satan is bound, a thousand years. And the same amount of symbolic time a thousand years when faithful saints who are not martyred for their faithfulness shall also reign with Christ during their lives a thousand years.

To read Rev 20 and argue that John is writing of ONE thousand literal years that shall be after this time has ended, is NOT reading from the Bible, but is reading their doctrine INTO the Bible. John writes of two type people in this chapter, they are the living and the dead. The living being part of the first resurrection through Christ are the living during this symbolic period of time, a thousand years, and the dead who shall not live again until this symbolic period of time, a thousand years has ended. They shall then be of all the dead called to stand before the judgment throne to give account according to what is written in the books and the book of life.

Nowhere in this chapter does John write or even hint of two physical resurrections separated by a literal one thousand years of more time. If he had the Bible would be contradicting Jo 5:28-29 which tells us that ALL of the physically dead shall be resurrected in the same hour coming when the last trumpet sounds. The same trumpet that signals that time given this earth shall be no longer, or as some translations write, there shall be delay no longer. It's time for some to be honest with what John has written, and make sure our understanding does not force contradiction and inconsistencies into the Word of God. Unless you address the contradictions and inconsistencies your doctrine forces into the Word of God David, you shall continue to be tossed to and fro, and continue to guess what you THINK the Bible might be saying. In doing this you can never grow into one of mature faith and biblical doctrine.

 

[grafted branch]

Jews of faith and Gentiles of faith belong to the everlasting Kingdom of God if they come into the Kingdom of God through Christ, who is the first resurrection who would never die again.

I think the view that sees the Gentiles being grafted in for the millennium is meaning Gentiles in general. In Romans 11:24 the Gentiles are cut out of the wild olive tree and grafted into a good olive tree.

There are obviously both believing and unbelieving Jews but they are all natural branches and there are both believing and unbelieving Gentiles which are of the wild olive tree.

How can one be grafted into the everlasting Kingdom of God and then be cut off from the everlasting Kingdom of God?

If the root = the everlasting kingdom of God then how is it that some of the natural branches were broken off?

Will God realize after one thousand literal years that He goofed, and He should not have allowed them in? That makes Him without ability to know who belongs to Him!!!

It wouldn’t be a goof, anymore than taking the kingdom from the chief priest and Pharisees meant God goofed.

Matthew 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. Vs 45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.

 

[rwb]

I think the view that sees the Gentiles being grafted in for the millennium is meaning Gentiles in general. In Romans 11:24 the Gentiles are cut out of the wild olive tree and grafted into a good olive tree.

There are obviously both believing and unbelieving Jews but they are all natural branches and there are both believing and unbelieving Gentiles which are of the wild olive tree.

If the root = the everlasting kingdom of God then how is it that some of the natural branches were broken off?

It wouldn’t be a goof, anymore than taking the kingdom from the chief priest and Pharisees meant God goofed.

Matthew 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. Vs 45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.

When is the millennium you believe Gentiles shall be grafted into the good olive tree? Why cannot some believe themselves belonging to Kingdom of God be there in unbelief, since the Kingdom of God is not physical but within you? Who are those John says were among the faithful, but departed, proving they never belonged?

It is now in this Gospel age where the Kingdom of God through Christ is being proclaimed that not only Gentile but also Jew must enter into the spiritual Kingdom of God to be eternally saved. How can the millennium not be symbolically speaking of this time that all who live upon this earth have been living in since the first advent of Christ, since it is now, since Christ has come when the faithful (both Jew & Gentile) are entering the Kingdom of God through Christ?

 

[rwb]

It wouldn’t be a goof, anymore than taking the kingdom from the chief priest and Pharisees meant God goofed.

Matthew 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. Vs 45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.

I agree! God did not goof when the Kingdom of God was taken from natural, physical Israel of Old and given to all who are and shall be "the Israel of God". As Christ tells us, the chief priests and Pharisees well understood the parable was about them, because they professed themselves to be the representation of the spiritual Kingdom of God physically upon the earth, but were in fact antichrists, liars and deceivers, as Christ liked to say of them "hypocrites".

 

[Timtofly]

It's a metaphor. God didn't literally breathe into Adam's nose. God doesn't have a mouth. He doesn't breathe.

The breath came from God whether a metaphor or not.

You are trying to manufacture a thought that is not there.

The verse says nothing about our spirit, but that God breathed into us the breadth of life the same way many were inspired or God breathed throughout the OT.

We are talking about the creation of the sons of God. We are not talking about Adam's descendants.

I pointed out that the point should be applied to all humans. God gives life in the womb or takes it away, no? Then you deny that it is God literally breathing air into human life. If it is not air, nor the Holy Spirit, you have come up with a third option that is manufactured by human understanding and not from Scripture.

 

[Timtofly]

I asked that? I didn't ask such a basic question. I could be mistaken, but you seemed to say or strongly imply that human beings have both a physical body and a spiritual body at the same time. I wondered where you got that idea. But I'll freely admit that I may have totally misunderstood what you said.

2 Corinthians 5:1 declares there are two bodies. One from Adam through genetics. The other from God. Both are physical from the atoms/dust of creation. Adam was created with the one from God, by God's own hands. Then at the point Adam disobeyed, God took that body away and gave him the temporal one of corruption.

My point was that Jesus never had the temporal body, but was God, formed in the womb of Mary, not the genetics passed down from Adam. Yes that permanent incorruptible physical body died on the Cross. Death was the whole point. Those who crucified Him needed to know there was a literal death, and not a fake or staged death.

That same permanent incorruptible physical body came back to life when the soul re-entered the body, and Jesus left the tomb without even having the stone removed.

Jesus never had the temporal corruptible physical body. Many here are arguing that Jesus had a sin nature corrupt body from Joseph instead of the physical body that was God as a son of God. Because Jesus obeyed, and after going to heaven God blessed Jesus with the permanent incorruptible physical body or spiritual immortal body, terms they have manufactured. Spiritual meaning no longer physical.

Physical does not mean sinful or natural from Adam. Physical is referring to the body. Spiritual refers to the spirit of man. Having both a body and spirit is the natural form of a son of God per Genesis 1 and 2.

The Holy Spirit dwells in us. Demonic spirits can dwell in us. Even other spirits can be sent by God. But we are spiritually separated from our own spirit, because it is not the literal air we breathe in and out. If we had our own spirit, we would not be spiritually dead needing the Holy Spirit.

So either the spirit returning to God is just our last breath, literal air, or it is the Holy Spirit returning to God.

And the soul leaves behind the corruptible temporal physical body at death, which returns to dust. Many souls go to sheol. The redeemed souls enter Paradise and that permanent incorruptible physical body from God. The Cross made that physical body from God possible because that is when all the OT redeemed left their graves and the soul left Abraham's bosom, and those bodies were the same permanent incorruptible physical body Jesus always had. They all ascended to Paradise with Jesus at the same time and were the firstfruits per 1 Corinthians 15:23

 

[grafted branch]

When is the millennium you believe Gentiles shall be grafted into the good olive tree? Why cannot some believe themselves belonging to Kingdom of God be there in unbelief, since the Kingdom of God is not physical but within you? Who are those John says were among the faithful, but departed, proving they never belonged?

It is now in this Gospel age where the Kingdom of God through Christ is being proclaimed that not only Gentile but also Jew must enter into the spiritual Kingdom of God to be eternally saved. How can the millennium not be symbolically speaking of this time that all who live upon this earth have been living in since the first advent of Christ, since it is now, since Christ has come when the faithful (both Jew & Gentile) are entering the Kingdom of God through Christ?

I personally don’t think the millennium is in view in Romans 11 anymore. I did see it that way but now I lean more towards the preterist side of things.

In Romans 11:27 it says For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. I think what’s in view is the covenants.

The Jews who obeyed the old covenant laws are the natural branches, when the time came and they didn’t recognize that Jesus fulfilled the law they are broken off from the root. They remained in the old covenant, broken off from the new covenant. They continued obeying the law, same as they always did, they outwardly looked the same, but were now considered to be in unbelief due to their inability to recognize what parts of the scriptures were fulfilled.

The Gentiles are grafted in but if they don’t recognize that Jesus fulfilled the law and they recognize the law or parts of the law as being unfulfilled then they are in unbelief and will be broken off from the new covenant.

Ultimately God does know who is and isn’t saved before they are ever born but from our perspective it is seen as being broken off when someone appears to believe but then end up rejecting Jesus, just as the nation of Israel did, even though a remnant did believe Jesus was the Messiah.

 

[Timtofly]

I don't think so. The Latin term "mort" refers to death. And it comes into English in words such as "mortify - deaden" or "mortuary - a place for the dead." The English word "mortal" has the suffix "-al" which changes the noun "mort" into an adjective meaning "of, like, related to, pertaining to" death. As an adjective, mortal has been used to indicate

1. Subject to death
2. Destructive of life
3. Fatally vulnerable
4. Of or pertaining to the time of death
5. Affecting as if with power to kill; deathly
6. Human; belonging to man
7. Very painful or tedious

In the following passage, the word "mortal" means "subject to death"

Romans 8:11
But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

Our current state is such that not only our body is subject to death, but our entire existence is destructive to life. The more we indulge in sinful behavior, the more it ruins our well-being, peace, tranquility, fulfillment, and happiness. Sinful behavior is detrimental to all of that.


Essato!

Then Paul is not even talking about the physical body when he says mortal putting on immortality, which has always been my point.

No one should use the term immortal body.

Paul was addressing the spiritual aspect of life. That is leaving death for life.

 

[PinSeeker]

One more time... <chuckles>

See my post #541 where I reply to him regarding his false claim regarding my "agreement" with what he said...​

I never said you totally agreed with any one thing I said, FullnessOfTheGentiles. But you did agree that, regarding Ephesians 2:4-6, there is a resurrection in view there, a resurrection that Paul is talking about. You say it yet again in this very post:

synegeírō (the word is referring in this verse to the resurrection of the body) raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Ephesians 2:4-6).​

Again, just regarding that there is a resurrection in view there, you are in agreement with that, and you have acknowledged that many times over in this thread. Now as for the details of that resurrection... :) ...our disagreement on that is well chronicled... :)... and I'll address that one more time here:

You say that the resurrection Paul is referring to is Christ's bodily resurrection, but yet again, this is a personal letter from Paul to the Christians in Ephesus, and his whole emphasis is on what has happened to them ~ so the resurrection that they themselves have experienced ~ not to Christ, and not the bodily resurrection of Christ that He (obviously) experienced. He is saying that they themselves have been raised ~ resurrected. And he must be talking about something ~ something :) ~ other than a physical, bodily resurrection, because he is writing to living people, people who have not yet physically/bodily died.

NOTE: You keep hitting the Greek words used there ~ and other places ~ as if there's some kind of disagreement there, but there's really not; the words are what they are. But my point is, you're missing ~ or avoiding ~ the points I'm making... or at least speaking to... every time you do so, over and over and over again. It's quite astounding.

And now on to this (again):

It seems to me that he's trying to imply that spiritual birth (the quickening by the Spirit) is the same as the bodily resurrection of saints who had been beheaded for refusal to worship the beast and were seen alive in their bodies (zao), where the passage calls it the first resurrection of the body (anastasis).​

I've never implied that, nor would I. But I disagree that the resurrection in view in Revelation 20:4-6 is the bodily resurrection of anyone, even the martyrs. You might actually agree with this: no one is physically/bodily with Christ right now, or at any time since His ascension to the right hand of the Father. Whether you do or not I do not know, but that fact alone should tell you that no physical/bodily resurrection ~ except that of Christ ~ has yet occurred. I maintain, yet again, that the resurrection John speaks of in his vision in Revelation 20:4-6, the first resurrection, as he specifies in verse 6, is the spiritual resurrection of all the saints and is the same spiritual ~ not bodily, and not Christ's ~ raising/resurrection that Paul speaks of in Ephesians 2:6.

And if you insist on differentiating between our being born again, our being quickened, by the Spirit, and the raising/resurrection to the heavenly places in Christ Jesus (that's a very important word, there, that 'in'), and make the latter subsequent to the former, then I'm perfectly fine with that. Yes, we could not have been raised/resurrected without first having been born again/quickened.

Spiritually we are in Christ, who has been bodily resurrected...​

Of course. But having previously been "dead in our trespasses... living in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind," we were "made alive" (born again of the Spirit) and then "raised" (resurrected by the Spirit) in making that so. :)

"Spiritual resurrection" or being "raised from the dead spiritually" does not come about with spiritual birth.​

That's very contrary to what Paul says in Ephesians 2. And Peter in 1 Peter 1, although he does mention Christ's physical resurrection specifically, saying, by implication, that our spiritual resurrection is through Christ's physical one.

Well, okay...

Birth is birth.​

Uh, sure. :)

There was no former spiritual (everlasting) life in us before we were born of the Spirit...​

Well, right, we were spiritually dead...

...hence there is no spiritual resurrection or being raised from death, as though we had once been alive (possessed everlasting life) spiritually.​

LOL! There is spiritual resurrection from spiritual death. Spiritual birth, yes, but the spiritual resurrection immediately follows. My goodness.

synegeírō is not the same as syzōopoiéō.

Right, and I never suggested such. We'll chalk that up to a misunderstanding of what I actually did say. Or, should I say... "poor eisegesis"...? :)

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Timtofly]

It means that God created, at some point in time, the spirit of each and every human being. It is in that spirit that God created man in His own image.

You gave a lot of Scripture. That is fine. None of them addressed your opinion which I quoted.

Our spirit is not preformed prior to creation if that is your point.

The soul, body, and spirit all are created at conception, the same point in time. But you only are a soul in a physical body. The body is only temporal, and corruptible, and returns to dust. Your soul enters Paradise and God's permanent incorruptible physical body. Which is not up there waiting for you, or maybe it is, who knows? 2 Corinthians 5:1

"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens."

You should at least know that the body you were born with is not the same body waiting when the soul enters it in Paradise. I agree that the body you were born with returns to dust, and cannot enter Paradise.

As for your spirit it has been in God's presence waiting since conception. It is the image of God and cannot be corrupt by your current physical body. That is why you have the Holy Spirit changing you from within you as a soul with a heart, mind, and will, not changing your body that returns to dust. Even those currently in Paradise are waiting for the Second Coming to put on the spirit. That is a one time event.

One cannot just assume that Genesis 2:7 is talking about one's own spirit.

"and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."

Don't view this as coming from God's mouth. We know God has a face, so not sure what the issue is. Exodus 33:20-23

"And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live. And the Lord said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock: And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by: And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen."

I guess it was good that those sons of God were not alive yet, as you probably interpret that they could not live if God's mouth was close to their nostrils, and they would see God eye to eye.

Or is Scripture all just metaphor, unless you need a verse to prove a literal point?

 

[ewq1938]

There is a difference between quickening (our spirits being made alive) and resurrection in the New Testament. "Spiritual resurrection" or being "raised from the dead spiritually" does not come about with spiritual birth.. Birth is birth. There was no former spiritual (everlasting) life in us before we were born of the Spirit, hence there is no spiritual resurrection or being raised from death, as though we had once been alive (possessed everlasting life) spiritually.
​

Yes, a misuse and misunderstanding of what a resurrection is. There must be life, then death then a return to life. When one is born again spiritually, was there this life/death/life again? No.

A resurrection is specifically about a physical body coming back to life. In the Greek it literally means to stand up, which the spirit cannot do.

G386
a??a´stas??
anastasis
an-as'-tas-is
From G450; a standing up again, that is, (literally) a resurrection from death (individual, general or by implication (its author)), or (figuratively) a (moral) recovery (of spiritual truth): - raised to life again, resurrection, rise from the dead, that should rise, rising again.
Total KJV occurrences: 42

This word comes from G450:

G450
a???´st?µ?
aniste¯mi
an-is'-tay-mee
From G303 and G2476; to stand up (literally or figuratively, transitively or intransitively): - arise, lift up, raise up (again), rise (again), stand up (-right).
Total KJV occurrences: 112

It's a synonym that has same meaning as G386. This word comes from two words, From G303 and G2476.

G303
a??a´
ana
an-ah'
A primary preposition and adverb; properly up; but (by extension) used (distributively) severally, or (locally) at (etc.): - and, apiece, by, each, every (man), in, through. In compounds (as a prefix) it often means (by implication) repetition, intensity, reversal, etc.
Total KJV occurrences: 15

G2476
??´st?µ?
histe¯mi
his'-tay-mee
A prolonged form of a primary word sta´? stao¯ (of the same meaning, and used for it in certain tenses); to stand (transitively or intransitively), used in various applications (literally or figuratively): - abide, appoint, bring, continue, covenant, establish, hold up, lay, present, set (up), stanch, stand (by, forth, still, up). Compare G5087.
Total KJV occurrences: 156

So one means up and other means to stand, forming a word that means "to stand up" which eventually became a word that means "to stand up again". The again is the second time a body was able to stand which means to be alive and capable of standing since the dead cannot stand.

Being "born again" or "spiritually alive" in a body that is still physically alive is not a resurrection or an anastasis.

 

[JBO]

You gave a lot of Scripture. That is fine. None of them addressed your opinion which I quoted.

Our spirit is not preformed prior to creation if that is your point.

That is not my point. It doesn't say when God created each of our spirits.

The soul, body, and spirit all are created at conception, the same point in time.

The Bible does not tell us when the spirit is created. It just says that God did.

But you only are a soul in a physical body.

That is not quite true. I am a soul, i.e., a living being (Genesis 2:7). I have a body and a spirit.

The body is only temporal, and corruptible, and returns to dust. Your soul enters Paradise and God's permanent incorruptible physical body. Which is not up there waiting for you, or maybe it is, who knows? 2 Corinthians 5:1

There is nothing in 2 Corinthians 5:1 that says that it is a physical body. In fact 1 Corinthians 15 says it is a spiritual body. And no one knows what a spiritual body is except that it is not physical and nothing like Jesus resurrection body according to 1 John 3:2.

"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens."

You should at least know that the body you were born with is not the same body waiting when the soul enters it in Paradise. I agree that the body you were born with returns to dust, and cannot enter Paradise.

As for your spirit it has been in God's presence waiting since conception. It is the image of God and cannot be corrupt by your current physical body. That is why you have the Holy Spirit changing you from within you as a soul with a heart, mind, and will, not changing your body that returns to dust. Even those currently in Paradise are waiting for the Second Coming to put on the spirit. That is a one time event.

One cannot just assume that Genesis 2:7 is talking about one's own spirit.

"and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."

But I can know that Ecclesiastes 12:7 and Zecharia 12:1 is talking about one's own spirit.

Don't view this as coming from God's mouth. We know God has a face, so not sure what the issue is. Exodus 33:20-23

"And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live. And the Lord said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock: And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by: And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen."

I guess it was good that those sons of God were not alive yet, as you probably interpret that they could not live if God's mouth was close to their nostrils, and they would see God eye to eye.

Or is Scripture all just metaphor, unless you need a verse to prove a literal point?

It is all just metaphor. John 4:24 says God is Spirit and Spirit is not physical. John 3:8 certainly suggests that spirits are like the wind; you can't see it even if you can sense its effects.

 

[rwb]

I personally don’t think the millennium is in view in Romans 11 anymore. I did see it that way but now I lean more towards the preterist side of things.

In Romans 11:27 it says For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. I think what’s in view is the covenants.

The Jews who obeyed the old covenant laws are the natural branches, when the time came and they didn’t recognize that Jesus fulfilled the law they are broken off from the root. They remained in the old covenant, broken off from the new covenant. They continued obeying the law, same as they always did, they outwardly looked the same, but were now considered to be in unbelief due to their inability to recognize what parts of the scriptures were fulfilled.

The Gentiles are grafted in but if they don’t recognize that Jesus fulfilled the law and they recognize the law or parts of the law as being unfulfilled then they are in unbelief and will be broken off from the new covenant.

Ultimately God does know who is and isn’t saved before they are ever born but from our perspective it is seen as being broken off when someone appears to believe but then end up rejecting Jesus, just as the nation of Israel did, even though a remnant did believe Jesus was the Messiah.

GB, who are "them" in vs 27? Would you agree that "them" is "all Israel that shall be saved? If yes, how can "all Israel" be ethnic Israel since their fullness is through Gentiles grafted into the good olive tree with Israel of faith? Would you also agree since the fullness of all Israel is through both Israelites of faith and Gentiles of faith together, "all Israel that shall be saved" is "the Israel of God"?

Romans 11:25-27 (KJV) For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

 

[Zao is life]

You say that the resurrection Paul is referring to is Christ's bodily resurrection, but yet again, this is a personal letter from Paul to the Christians in Ephesus, and his whole emphasis is on what has happened to them ~ so the resurrection that they themselves have experienced ~ not to Christ, and not the bodily resurrection of Christ that He (obviously) experienced. He is saying that they themselves have been raised ~ resurrected.

One more time Let's talk about the word "in", because as you say, it's a very important word, and let's consider who died, who was quickened, and who was raised from death.

"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." -- John 3:6

"Born of the flesh" is referring to physical birth.

You received life from your parents. You never had life before then.

When you were born into the world, what were you raised from?

When you were born of the Spirit, you received eternal life from God. You never had eternal life before then.

What was your spirit raised from when you were born of the Spirit?

"But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit of Christ is your life because of His righteousness. Moreover if the Spirit of the one who raised Jesus from the dead lives in you, the one who raised Christ from the dead will also make your mortal bodies alive through his Spirit who lives in you." -- Romans 8:10-11

"Because Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, to bring you to God, by being put to death in the flesh but by being made alive [zōopoiéō] in the spirit." -- 1 Peter 3:18

When Christ had been put to death in the flesh, was He spiritually raised or bodily raised when He was quickened by the Spirit?

When we have been BORN of the Spirit, then through His Spirit (i.e the Spirit of Christ) dwelling in us, "even us being DEAD in sins, God has

(1) syzōopoiéō (quickened together with) Christ, (by grace ye are saved); and has

(2) synegeírō (the word is referring in this verse to the resurrection of the body) raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus" -- Ephesians 2:4-6.

-- If Christ's Spirit is in you, your body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit (of Christ) is your life [zoe] because of (Christ's) righteousness. Moreover if the Spirit of the one who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the one who raised Christ from the dead will also quicken [zōopoiéō: make your mortal bodies alive] through his Spirit who lives in you." -- Romans 8:10-11.

We were not "raised" from anything. We were born. Then the Spirit of Christ came to dwell in you, and through His Spirit dwelling in you, you were

(1) syzōopoiéō (quickened together with) Christ, (by grace ye are saved); and

(2) synegeírō (the word is referring in this verse to the resurrection of CHRIST'S body) raised up together with Christ's bodily resurrection,

so that through His Spirit dwelling in you, you have been "made to sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Ephesians 2:4-6).

It's in Christ.

Your spirit has not been "raised" from anything. It has been born of the Spirit of Christ, and given eternal life - and that, THROUGH HIS death for our sins, the quickening of HIS Spirit, and the resurrection OF HIS BODY.

Eternal life is in Christ. We were not raised to eternal life. HE was quickened by the Spirit after He died bodily, and raised bodily from death. We were born of His Spirit and given eternal life through His Spirit dwelling in us. HENCE we are quickened with Him and raised bodily with Him.

We are in bodies that have not been resurrected. Spiritually we are in Christ, who HAS BEEN resurrected, whose Spirit dwells in us. It's all in Christ:

And he must be talking about something ~ something :) ~ other than a physical, bodily resurrection, because he is writing to living people, people who have not yet physically/bodily died.

No. You have read the above into what Paul is saying (eisegesis) and assumed that WE were "raised" from something by being born of God, when it was CHRIST who was raised from something when HE was quickened - and what HE was raised from was bodily death - and it is HIS Spirit that dwells in you because you have been born of God. Hence through HIS Spirit dwelling in you, you have been raised with HIM - not "raised" yourself - raised with HIM.

NOTE: You keep hitting the Greek words used there ~ and other places ~ as if there's some kind of disagreement there, but there's really not; the words are what they are. But my point is, you're missing ~ or avoiding ~ the points I'm making... or at least speaking to... every time you do so, over and over and over again. It's quite astounding.

It's been you all along who has been missing - or avoiding - the points I've been making. I've got all your points, loud and clear.

CHRIST was the one who died, and HE was the one who was quickened and was raised from the dead, bodily (not us), and through HIS Spirit dwelling in us, we have been quickened WITH HIS quickening and raised bodily with HIS resurrection - and so completely is this a reality, that we have even been made to sit with Him where HE is, in heavenly places, through HIS Spirit dwelling in us -

and all this through the fact that we were BORN of His Spirit (not "raised" from anything, anymore than you were "raised" from anything when you were born into the world, i,e born of the flesh).

Only CHRIST has been raised from something - and what HE was raised from, was (bodily) death, which was undone when HE was quickened by the Spirit of God, and so through HIS death for our sins, and through HIS quickening when He was quickened by the Spirit, and through HIS bodily resurrection, and through HIS Spirit coming to dwell in us when we are born of God, we are quickened with Him and bodily raised with Him.

You might actually agree with this: no one is physically/bodily with Christ right now

I do agree: If your spirit is united with His Spirit then you are where He is in your spirit, which was born of God.

But your body is dead because of sin, and after our resurrection we will not be dwelling in heaven in our resurrected bodies, but on earth, where Adam was always meant to dwell in his body that God created (God created mankind - Adam - body and soul and breathed eternal life into him, which was lost, so his body became as dead as ours is, and therefore began to die, and that death is the enemy of God and the last enemy to be destroyed).

So I agree, no one is physically with Christ right now.

And if you insist on differentiating between our being born again, our being quickened, by the Spirit, and the raising/resurrection to the heavenly places in Christ Jesus (that's a very important word, there, that 'in'),

You know the importance of that word "in", yet you do not fully understand its meaning, because you still imagine that in CHRIST'S death, quickening and resurrection we somehow find our own "resurrection", which is just not biblical. Only He was raised. In HIM we were raised with Him - and that happens through His Spirit dwelling in us, which would not have been a reality for us if we were not born of His Spirit.

I had to shorten this because of character limit but the rest of what you said is pretty much the same as the above and based on the same argument, with the same reply.

Grace and peace to you.

Grace and peace to you too. PinSeeker.

 

[Zao is life]

Yes, a misuse and misunderstanding of what a resurrection is. There must be life, then death then a return to life. When one is born again spiritually, was there this life/death/life again? No.

A resurrection is specifically about a physical body coming back to life. In the Greek it literally means to stand up, which the spirit cannot do.

G386
a??a´stas??
anastasis
an-as'-tas-is
From G450; a standing up again, that is, (literally) a resurrection from death (individual, general or by implication (its author)), or (figuratively) a (moral) recovery (of spiritual truth): - raised to life again, resurrection, rise from the dead, that should rise, rising again.
Total KJV occurrences: 42

This word comes from G450:

G450
a???´st?µ?
aniste¯mi
an-is'-tay-mee
From G303 and G2476; to stand up (literally or figuratively, transitively or intransitively): - arise, lift up, raise up (again), rise (again), stand up (-right).
Total KJV occurrences: 112

It's a synonym that has same meaning as G386. This word comes from two words, From G303 and G2476.

G303
a??a´
ana
an-ah'
A primary preposition and adverb; properly up; but (by extension) used (distributively) severally, or (locally) at (etc.): - and, apiece, by, each, every (man), in, through. In compounds (as a prefix) it often means (by implication) repetition, intensity, reversal, etc.
Total KJV occurrences: 15

G2476
??´st?µ?
histe¯mi
his'-tay-mee
A prolonged form of a primary word sta´? stao¯ (of the same meaning, and used for it in certain tenses); to stand (transitively or intransitively), used in various applications (literally or figuratively): - abide, appoint, bring, continue, covenant, establish, hold up, lay, present, set (up), stanch, stand (by, forth, still, up). Compare G5087.
Total KJV occurrences: 156

So one means up and other means to stand, forming a word that means "to stand up" which eventually became a word that means "to stand up again". The again is the second time a body was able to stand which means to be alive and capable of standing since the dead cannot stand.

Being "born again" or "spiritually alive" in a body that is still physically alive is not a resurrection or an anastasis.

Yes. "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." -- John 3:6

"Born of the flesh" is referring to physical birth.

We received life from our parents. We never had life before then.

When we were born into the world, what were we raised from?

When we were born of the Spirit, we received eternal life from God. We never had eternal life before then.

What was our spirit raised from when we were born of the Spirit?

CHRIST was the one who died, and HE was the one who was quickened and was raised from the dead, bodily (not us),

and through HIS Spirit dwelling in us, we have been quickened WITH HIS quickening and raised bodily with HIS resurrection - and so completely is this a reality, that we have even been made to sit with Him where HE is, in heavenly places, through HIS Spirit dwelling in us -

and all this through the fact that we were BORN of His Spirit (not "raised" from anything, anymore than we were "raised" from anything when we were born into the world, i,e born of the flesh).

Only CHRIST has been raised from something

- and what HE was raised from, was (bodily) death, which was undone when HE was quickened by the Spirit of God, and so through HIS death for our sins, and through HIS quickening when HE was quickened by the Spirit, and through HIS bodily resurrection,

and through HIS Spirit coming to dwell in us when we are born of God, we are quickened with HIM and bodily raised with Him:

"But God, who is rich in mercy, for His great love with which He loved us, even us being DEAD in sins,

(1) He has syzōopoiéō (quickened together with) Christ, (by grace ye are saved);

(2) and has synegeírō (the word is referring in this verse to the resurrection of the body) raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Ephesians 2:4-6).

-- If Christ's Spirit is in you, your body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit (of Christ) is your life [zoe] because of (Christ's) righteousness. Moreover if the Spirit of the one who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the one who raised Christ from the dead will also quicken [zōopoiéō: make your mortal bodies alive] through his Spirit who lives in you." -- (Romans 8:10-11).

 

[grafted branch]

GB, who are "them" in vs 27? Would you agree that "them" is "all Israel that shall be saved? If yes, how can "all Israel" be ethnic Israel since their fullness is through Gentiles grafted into the good olive tree with Israel of faith? Would you also agree since the fullness of all Israel is through both Israelites of faith and Gentiles of faith together, "all Israel that shall be saved" is "the Israel of God"?

Romans 11:25-27 (KJV) For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

I agree that there is only one true Israel but a distinction is still being made between Jew and Gentile else you couldn’t have blindness in part happening to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

If there was no distinction then Romans 11:25-27 would say believers shouldn’t be ignorant, blindness has happened to believers until the fullness of believers comes in and so all believers shall be saved.

 

[rwb]

I agree that there is only one true Israel but a distinction is still being made between Jew and Gentile else you couldn’t have blindness in part happening to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

If there was no distinction then Romans 11:25-27 would say believers shouldn’t be ignorant, blindness has happened to believers until the fullness of believers comes in and so all believers shall be saved.

Paul is talking about the blindness in part belonging to Israel in unbelief. He does not say the blindness that is in part shall be lifted from Israel in unbelief, he is simply stating a fact. But then he says "all Israel" shall still be saved, not because the blindness that is in part is lifted, but because Gentiles shall make Israel full. That was the mystery that had been hidden before the advent of Christ. The mystery that Gentiles too would be grafted into the good olive tree with Israel of faith, and together Jews of faith and Gentiles of faith shall be "all Israel that shall be saved." Not an ethnic people but people of faith from every nation of the world. That's why Paul uses the personal name Jacob when he says, "There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob" throughout Paul has used Israel to define his kinsmen according to the flesh. But then when he speaks of Christ the Deliverer turning away ungodliness from Jacob. This makes sense when we remember what he said in Ro 9.

Though Paul had great compassion for his kinsmen according to the flesh and was ready for himself to be accursed if that would save them, he says, not all who are of the physical Israel through the seed of Abraham are the children of God. He calls them children of the flesh, and says only the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Romans 9:6-8 (KJV) Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Not all who are called Israel are Israel, neither because they are the seed of Abraham. It is only though Isaac that the seed be called. And the children of the flesh, Paul once again says are NOT the children of God. The reason Paul writes Jacob instead of Israel in chapter 11 is because it is written "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated."

Romans 9:6-13 (KJV) Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son. And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Paul writes there is a only a remnant saved through the work of the Lord. If the Lord had not left us a seed (Christ) Israel would have been made like Sodom and Gomorrha.

Romans 9:27-29 (KJV) Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth. And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.

Even in chapter 11 Paul writes that God has not cast away all his kinsmen according to the flesh, in the days of the Prophet Elijah he preserved 7000 for Himself who had not bowed to Baal. And as he is writing Paul acknowledges that "at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace." Remembering all that Paul has written of only the remnant of Israel according to the flesh would be saved, why would Paul in vs 26-27 contradict what he's already repeatedly said to argue all ethnic Israel shall be saved through the Deliverer who comes out of Zion to turn away ungodliness from Jacob? Remember also the Seed (Christ) comes through Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the fathers of faith His Covenant was unto, and whose sins He would take away. These represent ALL the faithful in Christ, both Jew and Gentile who are saved by grace through faith by the Gospel proclaimed in the power of the Holy Spirit.

Romans 11:27 (KJV) For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.