They will reign with Him a thousand years and making an unknown Greek out of the English New Testament

[PinSeeker]

That sounds like something I can see making sense per Amil...

Ugh. I don't see how you can see that; see above.

, except Amils apparently don't see it making sense

Well, I guess on its face it... makes sense... it's just wrong. :)

. Per Amil it could mean the ones that fall away...

Ah, falling away, another concept that gives people a hard time. It should not, but it does. Regarding people who do fall away, I would point out what John says, that "many antichrists have come... (t)hey went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us" (1 John 2:18-19). John is talking about those who professed to be Christians, but were never really in Christ. These are people who fall away.

If Amils taught things like that, I might be more inclined to think there could be something to the Amil view after all. The way they currently reason some of these things makes zero sense to me even if Premil is not the correct position but that Amil is. After all, it's not like there will be no falling away(2 Thessalonians 2:3).

Hmmm, see immediately above.

It's not like, what I brought up per Romans 11, that this does not undeniably prove not once saved always saved is indeed Biblical.

See my post 515 above.

Keeping in mind as well, one can't fall away from something they never had part in to begin with.

Correct. see immediately above.

It's a no brainer then, NOSAS is Biblical...

What you're really talking about, David, is our responsibility once we are saved. And if one does not own up to and fulfill this responsibility, then he or she was never saved. Because what we are really talking about is if one is bearing the fruit of the Spirit or not ~ if there is outward evidence of the Spirit's work in them, the Spirit bearing fruit through him or her. If there is no outward evidence of faith, then that is a really good indicator that God is not then and never was at work in them. Remember what Paul says to the Ephesians, that "we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them" (Ephesians 2:10), and then to the Philippians, that we are to "work out (our) own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in (us), both to will and to work for his good pleasure" (Philippians 2:12-13).

, and that anyone who teaches otherwise are liars and deceivers in regards to that in particular.

Ah, so here we go calling people liars and deceivers... God says not to call unclean what He has made clean...

Grace and peace to you, David.

 

[Davidpt]

@Davidpt I did not agree and still do not agree with PinSeeker's interpretation of what Jesus meant when He was talking about "binding the strong man". I don't know if he just reads things into what people say (or what). PinSeeker, reading what I said into my agreeing with you about the above is kind of the same as reading "Jesus bound Satan at Calvary" into the analogy Jesus used of "the strong man" being bound every time Jesus and His apostles cast demons out of people before and after Calvary, which is just one of the many places yourself and all Amils place one eisgegetical interpretation upon another in your interpretation of the scriptures.

Speaking of that post you are addressing, what is your interpretation of what was being meant here since he was saying this to me, in particular, what I underlined, since you are pretty good at discerning what someone is meaning when they say certain things like that?

and by extension, he’s telling you and me (assuming you’re a Christian too) that we’ve been resurrected, too.

 

[CadyandZoe]

I did not say that. The Holy Spirit works on the inside of every human ever conceived. That is what that breath of life in Genesis signifies. Adam quenched the Spirit when he disobeyed God. Submission to the Holy Spirit produces fruit. The Holy Spirit does not force oneself even though God seemed to favor Jacob over Esau, and John the Baptist in the womb.

Life is not just air. Life is of the Holy Spirit which is this spirit of God.

God is not only a spirit/air. God is also light.

You are the soul whether you accept that or not.

I don't think the breath of life is the Holy Spirit. The breath of life is our spirit.

 

[CadyandZoe]

The tomb was empty. Matthew 28:5-6

"And the angel answered and said unto the women, Fear not ye: for I know that ye seek Jesus, which was crucified. He is not here: for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay."

Mark 16:5-6

"And entering into the sepulchre, they saw a young man sitting on the right side, clothed in a long white garment; and they were affrighted. And he saith unto them, Be not affrighted: Ye seek Jesus of Nazareth, which was crucified: he is risen; he is not here: behold the place where they laid him."

Luke 24:2-6

"And they found the stone rolled away from the sepulchre. And they entered in, and found not the body of the Lord Jesus. And it came to pass, as they were much perplexed thereabout, behold, two men stood by them in shining garments: And as they were afraid, and bowed down their faces to the earth, they said unto them, Why seek ye the living among the dead? He is not here, but is risen."

John 20:2

"Then she runneth, and cometh to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple, whom Jesus loved, and saith unto them, They have taken away the Lord out of the sepulchre, and we know not where they have laid him."

Sorry, You lost me.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Latin mors/mort = death

You say subject to death. I said in a state of death. That means you are dead.

While "mort" might be the Latin word for death; the English word "mortal" means "subject to death."

 

[PinSeeker]

@Davidpt I did not agree and still do not agree with PinSeeker's interpretation of what Jesus meant when He was talking about "binding the strong man".

To each his own, I guess, right? :)

I don't know if he just reads things into what people say (or what).

Sometimes it is possible to make inferences; we all do that... hopefully very carefully, though, even with great trepidation with regard to God's Word; I certainly do.

PinSeeker, reading what I said into my agreeing with you...

Is quoting exactly what you said (regarding a resurrection being spoken of by Paul in Ephesians 2:4-6). You did agree, Fullness of the Gentiles. You may take it back now; certainly, you can do as you please... as if you needed my permission to do that or something...

about the above is kind of the same as reading "Jesus bound Satan at Calvary" into the analogy Jesus used of "the strong man" being bound every time Jesus and His apostles cast demons out of people before and after Calvary, which is just one of the many places yourself and all Amils place one eisgegetical interpretation upon another in your interpretation of the scriptures.

LOL! I say right back atcha, FOTG. :) Thinking "'the strong man' being bound every time Jesus and His apostles cast demons out of people before and after Calvary" is proven incorrect even grammatically, because there In Matthew 12 and Mark 3, Jesus is saying in a general way that He is able to cast out demons (even on the Sabbath) because the strong man has been ~ past tense... past participle, actually, which expresses a completed action ~ bound.

We can agree to disagree. Should be able to, anyway; I don't... really understand why people get so worked up over this. Really. Like I said before, it really is... okay. :)

Grace and peace to you, Fullness of the Gentiles.

 

[PinSeeker]

In Judges 6:36-40 Gideon asked for a sign of the fleece. The first time the fleece is wet and the ground dry, the second time the fleece is dry and the ground wet.

Do you think this could be pointing to a time when the word of God (dew) goes to the Jews (fleece) and not the Gentiles (the earth), and after this then the word (dew) doesn’t go to the Jews (blind in part until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in) and the word (dew) does go to the Gentiles (earth)?

Could be, but no, I don't think so. Gideon was asking God for a sign, trying to discern God's will.

Grace and peace to you, GB.

 

[PinSeeker]

Speaking of that post you are addressing, what is your interpretation of what was being meant here since he was saying this to me, in particular, what I underlined, since you are pretty good at discerning what someone is meaning when they say certain things like that?

and by extension, he’s telling you and me (assuming you’re a Christian too) that we’ve been resurrected, too.

Was that unclear to you, David? Surely not...

And, are you really asking another poster (FOTG) here to "interpret" what another poster (me) means? Really? Goodness gracious. :) I mean, why don't you just ask... me...? :) But... I'm not going to be "hurt" if you don't... :)

Grace and peace to you.

 

[ewq1938]

@Davidpt I did not agree and still do not agree with PinSeeker's interpretation of what Jesus meant when He was talking about "binding the strong man". I don't know if he just reads things into what people say (or what). PinSeeker, reading what I said into my agreeing with you about the above is kind of the same as reading "Jesus bound Satan at Calvary" into the analogy Jesus used of "the strong man" being bound every time Jesus and His apostles cast demons out of people before and after Calvary, which is just one of the many places yourself and all Amils place one eisgegetical interpretation upon another in your interpretation of the scriptures.

Plus it isn't Christ that binds satan since it is an angel. Amill also usually ignores the key, lock and imprisonment in the pit because those are harder to symbolize. They only focus on the binding so they can manipulate what that means rather than what it actually means.

The strongman is part of a parable and none of the story is related to Christ dying on the cross. The binding and imprisonment of satan in Rev 20 is FAR from events of the 1st century, being events that happen after the trib had ended involving the saints that were murdered during that period. (none of which has happened)

 

[PinSeeker]

Plus it isn't Christ that binds satan since it is an angel.

It's Christ. In John's vision, the angel mentioned in Revelation 20:1 is Christ. There are several Biblical allusions in the Old Testament referring to Christ as the angel of the LORD.

Amill also usually ignores the key, lock and imprisonment in the pit because those are harder to symbolize. They only focus on the binding so they can manipulate what that means rather than what it actually means.

Oh my goodness. LOL! No,"Amill" just doesn't make them out to be literal, wooden objects and places as many wooden-headedly do; John's Revelation is not... a Dick and Jane first grade primer. :) But... it is what it is... :)

The strongman is part of a parable and none of the story is related to Christ dying on the cross.

Christ is not speaking in parables there in Matthew 12, EWQ. He is referencing what Isaiah prophesied the Lord saying centuries earlier, specifically:

Isaiah 22:17-19 ~ "Behold, the LORD will hurl you away violently, O you strong man. He will seize firm hold on you and whirl you around and around, and throw you like a ball into a wide land... I will thrust you from your office, and you will be pulled down from your station. And I will place on His shoulder the key of the house of David. He shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open."

Isaiah 49:24-25 ~ "Can the prey be taken from the mighty, or the captives of a tyrant be rescued? For thus says the LORD: 'Even the captives of the mighty shall be taken, and the prey of the tyrant be rescued, for I will contend with those who contend with you, and I will save your children.'"

Isaiah 53:10-12 ~ "Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush Him; He has put Him to grief; when His soul makes an offering for guilt, He shall see His offspring; He shall prolong his days; the will of the LORD shall prosper in His hand. Out of the anguish of His soul He shall see and be satisfied; by His knowledge shall the Righteous One, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous, and He shall bear their iniquities. Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the many, and He shall divide the spoil with the strong, because He poured out his soul to death and was numbered with the transgressors; yet He bore the sin of many, and makes intercession for the transgressors."

It's all about Christ, EWQ, and the strong man" Christ refers to in Matthew 12 is the evil one, Satan... just like the strong man of Isaiah 22 and the tyrant of Isaiah 49. And Christ is the Rescuer, who poured out His soul to death and was numbered with the transgressions and bore the sins of many... and now makes intercession for us. And directly related to Revelation 20:1-6.

The binding and imprisonment of satan in Rev 20 is FAR from events of the 1st century, being events that happen after the trib had ended involving the saints that were murdered during that period. (none of which has happened)

Well, everybody is entitled to their opinion. :) And... it's okay. :)

Grace and peace to you, EWQ.

 

[Timtofly]

I don't think the breath of life is the Holy Spirit. The breath of life is our spirit.

Why would our spirit come from God and return to God? That makes no sense. That means we existed in spirit before creation and came out of God into a physical body. Then we returned to God and became God.

Only the Holy Spirit comes from God, and returns to God.

That breath came out of God's mouth.

 

[Timtofly]

Sorry, You lost me.

You asked me why the body of Jesus was not still in the tomb. Jesus got up and left the tomb with the same body that was on the Cross.

 

[Timtofly]

While "mort" might be the Latin word for death; the English word "mortal" means "subject to death."

And English was not around when Paul wrote those words. Of course Paul did not write in Latin either, but that is how it came to be into English instead of from Greek.

This indicates the English word has the Greek meaning but the Latin spelling, except Latin does mean death. So how does one put on "subject to death" or "not subject to death"?

Why not just simplify and say one can put on death, or put on life? This use of adjectives by Paul was not even talking about the physical body. Paul was talking about a being putting on the spirit. Or a being putting on life. One is dead unless they put on life. Are we going to only be subject to life, and never actually have life?

 

[Timtofly]

The strongman is part of a parable and none of the story is related to Christ dying on the cross.

Also a rhetorical question in context. The topic was casting out demons.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Why would our spirit come from God and return to God? That makes no sense. That means we existed in spirit before creation and came out of God into a physical body. Then we returned to God and became God.

I don't think any of that follows from what I said.

Only the Holy Spirit comes from God, and returns to God.

I don't know where you are getting your picture.
According to Paul, God pours out his spirit into our hearts and that spiritual gift is granted to those whom God is saving, not to the entire world. We have our own spirit, which is why Paul can write that the Holy Spirit testifies to our spirit.

Romans 8:16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God . . .

Romans 5:5 and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

That breath came out of God's mouth.

It's a metaphor. God didn't literally breathe into Adam's nose. God doesn't have a mouth. He doesn't breathe.

 

[CadyandZoe]

You asked me why the body of Jesus was not still in the tomb. Jesus got up and left the tomb with the same body that was on the Cross.

I asked that? I didn't ask such a basic question. I could be mistaken, but you seemed to say or strongly imply that human beings have both a physical body and a spiritual body at the same time. I wondered where you got that idea. But I'll freely admit that I may have totally misunderstood what you said.

 

[JBO]

God's mouth.

God's mouth ? ? ? ? ?

 

[CadyandZoe]

And English was not around when Paul wrote those words. Of course Paul did not write in Latin either, but that is how it came to be into English instead of from Greek.

I don't think so. The Latin term "mort" refers to death. And it comes into English in words such as "mortify - deaden" or "mortuary - a place for the dead." The English word "mortal" has the suffix "-al" which changes the noun "mort" into an adjective meaning "of, like, related to, pertaining to" death. As an adjective, mortal has been used to indicate

1. Subject to death
2. Destructive of life
3. Fatally vulnerable
4. Of or pertaining to the time of death
5. Affecting as if with power to kill; deathly
6. Human; belonging to man
7. Very painful or tedious

In the following passage, the word "mortal" means "subject to death"

Romans 8:11
But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

Our current state is such that not only our body is subject to death, but our entire existence is destructive to life. The more we indulge in sinful behavior, the more it ruins our well-being, peace, tranquility, fulfillment, and happiness. Sinful behavior is detrimental to all of that.

Why not just simplify and say one can put on death, or put on life? This use of adjectives by Paul was not even talking about the physical body. Paul was talking about a being putting on the spirit. Or a being putting on life. One is dead unless they put on life. Are we going to only be subject to life, and never actually have life?

Essato!

 

[Zao is life]

Speaking of that post you are addressing, what is your interpretation of what was being meant here since he was saying this to me, in particular, what I underlined, since you are pretty good at discerning what someone is meaning when they say certain things like that?

and by extension, he’s telling you and me (assuming you’re a Christian too) that we’ve been resurrected, too.

See my post #541 where I reply to him regarding his false claim regarding my "agreement" with what he said, where I quote what he said, and my reply to it, and quote the posts.

It seems to me that he's trying to imply that spiritual birth (the quickening by the Spirit) is the same as the bodily resurrection of saints who had been beheaded for refusal to worship the beast and were seen alive in their bodies (zao), where the passage calls it the first resurrection of the body (anastasis).

@PinSeeker has made a lot of posts in this thread so you would have to give me the post # you are referring to, but again, if that's what he claims when he claims falsely that I agreed with him, then again he has misread what I said.

This is what I was trying to explain to him (and what the scriptures have tried to explain to him), and clearly, whatever I said, he has misread, because he misreads what the scriptures say about this:
​

We are in bodies that have not been resurrected. Spiritually we are in Christ, who has been bodily resurrected (John 14:17, 18-20): "And I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, so that He may be with you forever, the Spirit of Truth, whom the world cannot receive because it does not see Him nor know Him. But you know Him, for He dwells with you and shall be in you. At that day you shall know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you."

John 17
23 I in them, and You in Me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that You have sent Me and have loved them as You have loved Me.

Spiritually we are in Him who was quickened by the Spirit after He died, and has been bodily resurrected from the dead:

"But God, who is rich in mercy, for His great love with which He loved us, even us being DEAD in sins,

(1) He has syzōopoiéō (quickened together with) Christ, (by grace ye are saved);

(2) and has synegeírō (the word is referring in this verse to the resurrection of the body) raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Ephesians 2:4-6).

-- If Christ's Spirit is in you, your body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit (of Christ) is your life [zoe] because of (Christ's) righteousness. Moreover if the Spirit of the one who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the one who raised Christ from the dead will also quicken [zōopoiéō: make your mortal bodies alive] through his Spirit who lives in you." -- (Romans 8:10-11).

There is a difference between quickening (our spirits being made alive) and resurrection in the New Testament. "Spiritual resurrection" or being "raised from the dead spiritually" does not come about with spiritual birth.. Birth is birth. There was no former spiritual (everlasting) life in us before we were born of the Spirit, hence there is no spiritual resurrection or being raised from death, as though we had once been alive (possessed everlasting life) spiritually.

The Greek New Testament uses different words for, on one hand, the quickening by the Spirit, and, on the other hand, being raised (the resurrection), and it does so for a reason:

The word quickening relates to spiritual birth (birth by the Spirit) and the words used for resurrection relate to the resurrection of the body, whenever they appear in the New Testament.

We had to be quickened before we could be raised, just as Christ was quickened after His bodily death, and through Christ's bodily resurrection we will also experience the resurrection of the body, having been bodily raised with Him, because we are in Him through spiritual birth by His Spirit.

Christ is only in us and we in Him because we were quickened by His Spirit, and because we have been united with His Spirit, we have taken part in His quickening and His own bodily resurrection.

It is also through His bodily resurrection that this takes place:

1 Peter 1:3
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! By his great mercy he gave us new birth (anagennáō) into a living (záō) hope THROUGH the resurrection (anástasis) of Jesus Christ from the dead".

The hope that Peter is talking about in the above verse is the assurance of the resurrection of our dead bodies after we have died (at the time of the return of Christ). 1 Peter 1:3 tells us that God has caused us to be born of the Spirit of God THROUGH the bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ, but it's not our "spiritual resurrection" that Peter is talking about - that's not what he is saying.

I've tried to explain this to @PinSeeker, so if he has falsely claimed that I agreed with him that this is what Revelation 20:4-6 is talking about, then he is making a false claim, because I was talking about this to show that Revelation 20:4 cannot possibly be speaking about a "spiritual resurrection" and we are not "resurrected" spiritually when we are born of the Spirit.

EPHESIANS 2:5-6

Verse 6 is referring to the resurrection of the body, not of the Spirit. The quickening of the body takes place by the Spirit and through the resurrection of Christ.

.. and has raised us up together [synegeírō] and made us sit together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus.

We are in Christ, spiritually, though our being born of (quickened, made alive) by His Spirit, and He has been raised from the dead, bodily - not us. Our resurrection is still coming.

Ephesians 2:6 is not talking about "being spiritually raised" - neither is Ephesians 2:5 - it's talking about us being [/B]born[/B] of the Spirit (quickened) and for this reason, the Greek uses two completely different words:

"But God, who is rich in mercy, for His great love with which He loved us, even us being DEAD in sins,

(1) He has syzōopoiéō (quickened together with) Christ, (by grace ye are saved);

(2) and has synegeírō (the word is referring in this verse to the resurrection of the body) raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Ephesians 2:4-6).

-- If Christ's Spirit is in you, your body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit (of Christ) is your life [zoe] because of (Christ's) righteousness. Moreover if the Spirit of the one who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the one who raised Christ from the dead will also quicken [zōopoiéō: make your mortal bodies alive] through his Spirit who lives in you." -- (Romans 8:10-11).

I did not agree with @PinSeeker 's eisegetical interpretation of the above passage, but whatever I replied, he has obviously read my "agreement" with what he says about it, into what I said (more eisegesis).
​

Amillennialists must read "being raised spiritually" into the word synegeiro in Ephesians 2:6 because they need to base what they assert regarding Revelation 20:4-6 upon the false notion that the resurrection of the bodies of the saints with Christ's bodily resurrection (syneigeiro) is "being raised spiritually" when we are born (zōopoiéō) of the Spirit with (syzōopoiéō) the quickening of Christ.

But their error is already proved by the fact that syzōopoiéō and synegeírō are two different words for a reason: They are not both referring to being raised, or to the resurrection - only synegeírō refers to the resurrection, and in the New Testament, egeírō always refers to the resurrection of the body whenever it's being used in reference to being raised from death. The rest of the time it's used in a normal sense, like as in "rise up, let's go" or being rising from sleep in a usual sense.

synegeírō is not the same as syzōopoiéō.

Quickened and bodily raised together with Christ

BORN OF GOD. QUICKENED TOGETHER WITH CHRIST'S QUICKENING, AND BODILY RAISED TOGETHER WITH CHRIST'S BODILY RESURRECTION M ankind was created...

zaoislife.blogspot.com

 

[JBO]

Why would our spirit come from God and return to God? That makes no sense. That means we existed in spirit before creation and came out of God into a physical body. Then we returned to God and became God.

Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

Gen 2:7 then the LORD God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature.

Gen 9:6 "Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed, for God made man in his own image.

Ecc 12:7 and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

Zec 12:1 The burden of the word of the LORD concerning Israel: Thus declares the LORD, who stretched out the heavens and founded the earth and formed the spirit of man within him:

It means that God created, at some point in time, the spirit of each and every human being. It is in that spirit that God created man in His own image.