They will reign with Him a thousand years and making an unknown Greek out of the English New Testament

[rwb]

Since I agree with what I quoted per your post above, it's simple then.


Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


The time frame this is involving is the same time frame the following is involving.

Daniel 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

Daniel 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.


There's the beginning of the thousand years, all of these verses I just submitted via Daniel 7. And what disproves Amil is this.

Daniel 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;


This precedes what I just submitted from ch 7. Which means these events in verse 21 precede the beginning of the thousand years. Clearly, that can't work with Amil since Amil has the beginning of the thousand years starting 2000 years ago and that Daniel 7:21 can't possibly fit anything prior to the beginning of the Amil proposed thousand years.

The chronology looks like this. The events involving Daniel 7:21 followed by the beginning of the thousand years. Therefore, it clearly matters where one places the beginning of the thousand years. As of the beginning of the thousand years, the 7th trumpet in question, it has already sounded, not instead, that it is yet to sound in the future. And since the 7th trumpet obviously hasn't sounded yet, the thousand years have not begun yet, either.

Daniel 7 per what I submitted from it is telling us that the time that comes when the saints possess the kingdom, it is meaning at the beginning of the thousand years. And that the thousand years are preceded by the events recorded in Daniel 7:21. Good luck getting that to fit with Amil when Amil has the beginning of the thousand years starting 2000 years ago. As if it makes sense that Daniel 7:21 can fit an era of time prior to Amil's proposed beginning of the thousand years.

What has been crossing my mind lately since the 7th trumpet obviously involves an era of time, the era of time that it is involving include the vials of wrath, the 2nd coming, the beast getting cast into the LOF, satan getting bound, then the thousand years, followed by satan's little season then he too being cast into the LOF and finally the GWTJ. IOW, it is at the end of all these things when the mystery of God is finished. Maybe that can work, maybe it can't, I just don't know. All I know is that it is something that has crossed my mind lately for some reason.

Daniel's prophecy points to the first advent of Christ. Which John writes began with the binding of Satan in time symbolized a thousand years. So, I agree the prophecy in Dan 7 that is repeated in Revelation is a depiction of the Son of man, the exact image of the Ancient of days. I'll let you do your own comparison and instead of commenting I've emboldened particular similarities.

Revelation 1:13-18 (KJV) And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength. And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Revelation 5:10-12 (KJV) And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands; Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

Daniel 7:9 (KJV) I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
Daniel 7:10 (KJV) A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
Daniel 7:11 (KJV) I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
Daniel 7:12 (KJV) As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.
Daniel 7:13 (KJV) I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
Daniel 7:14 (KJV) And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Daniel 7:22 (KJV) Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
Daniel 7:23 (KJV) Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
Daniel 7:24 (KJV) And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
Daniel 7:25 (KJV) And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
Daniel 7:26 (KJV) But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.
Daniel 7:27 (KJV) And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

 

[rwb]

Here's a tense for you to explain.

which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands

What events explain how and when this martyrdom above happened if not what Revelation 13, for one, records? As to that chapter, obviously neither the beast nor satan are in the pit during the beast's 42 month reign. Which means that the beast has to ascend out of the pit before these can be martyred for the reasons mentioned---had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands. Clearly, this also matches the era of time Daniel 7:21 is involving. Meaning when they are initially martyred. Why is it then that Amil, or at least the versions I'm most familiar with, have the beast ascending out of the pit at the end of the thousand years when what I submitted from Revelation 20:4 above proves that it does not ascend out of the pit after the thousand years if it has already ascended out of it earlier in time?

Do you believe what is written is limited to the Gospel age?

Revelation 20:4 (KJV) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

 

[rwb]

So are there two different Michaels?

If there is only one Michael then he stands up or takes a stand/position at a certain point in time in Daniel 12:1. When in time do you suppose he takes that stand?

I believe Michael of Dan 12:1 and Michael of Rev 12 are depicting the same event. It was through the advent of Christ coming to earth a man that Michael stands up for his people through the battle between Michael and his angels and the dragon and his angels, with Satan and his angels being cast out of heaven and bound to the earth.

 

[rwb]

Here's a tense for you to explain.

which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands

What events explain how and when this martyrdom above happened if not what Revelation 13, for one, records? As to that chapter, obviously neither the beast nor satan are in the pit during the beast's 42 month reign. Which means that the beast has to ascend out of the pit before these can be martyred for the reasons mentioned---had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands. Clearly, this also matches the era of time Daniel 7:21 is involving. Meaning when they are initially martyred. Why is it then that Amil, or at least the versions I'm most familiar with, have the beast ascending out of the pit at the end of the thousand years when what I submitted from Revelation 20:4 above proves that it does not ascend out of the pit after the thousand years if it has already ascended out of it earlier in time?

David, I have a small request for you. Before going off into another question regarding Rev 20, perhaps you wouldn't mind addressing the inconsistencies in your doctrine I've already pointed out. Perhaps that would clear up some of these questions you have???

 

[Timtofly]

When we die physically, we die spiritually also. According to Paul, at the command of the archangel, those who are dead in Christ will rise out of their graves. Then we who are alive will gather together with them to meet the Lord in the air. I can't make sense of that picture given what you said.

This does not make sense that you think we are currently spiritually alive. All of Adam's descendants are born into physical and spiritual death. No one prior to physical death is spiritually alive. You are only part of the Second Birth by allowing the Holy Spirit to have control of your heart and mind.

And your translation is not entirely correct. No verse states people come out of their graves at the Second Coming. That is human theology inserted into Scripture just like all erroneous human interpretation.

No one is going to understand God's plan until they figure that point out.

 

[Davidpt]

I believe Michael of Dan 12:1 and Michael of Rev 12 are depicting the same event.

Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be

Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.


First of all, obviously, these accounts are involving the same events, the same era of time. That indicates that how you are applying Revelation 12 to Daniel 12:1 you need to likewise do with Matthew 24:21. What needs to be noted here, though both accounts are involving the same events, same era of time, the former is meaning at the beginning of this unequaled time of trouble. The latter is meaning at the end of it. That is when Michael stands up. It even says so right here---And at that time shall Michael stand up--and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. Followed by what verse 2 records.

Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Revelation 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

The problem is this. If Michael stands up at the end of this time of trouble, what follows that is a resurrection of the dead.
In Revelation 12 here, no resurrection of the dead follows this war in heaven. It instead leads to satan getting cast to the earth. Therefore, the same events are not in mind here.

with Satan and his angels being cast out of heaven and bound to the earth.

What does that mean when he is loosed, assuming this scenario? Does that mean he is no longer bound to the earth?

 

[Davidpt]

David, I have a small request for you. Before going off into another question regarding Rev 20, perhaps you wouldn't mind addressing the inconsistencies in your doctrine I've already pointed out. Perhaps that would clear up some of these questions you have???

Can you point out which posts in particular you pointed out these inconsistencies so that I can look at them again and try and go from there?

 

[Davidpt]

Do you believe what is written is limited to the Gospel age?

Revelation 20:4 (KJV) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

What is written where? Per the verse you submitted? Or are you meaning something else?

 

[Davidpt]

Revelation 5:10-12 (KJV) And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands; Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

Daniel 7:9 (KJV) I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
Daniel 7:10 (KJV) A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
Daniel 7:11 (KJV) I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
Daniel 7:12 (KJV) As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.
Daniel 7:13 (KJV) I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
Daniel 7:14 (KJV) And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Let's focus on this for now. In Daniel 7 it involves the beast being slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame. Where do you see Revelation 5:10-12 involving any of that? How can these accounts be involving the same events when Revelation 5:10-12 is apparently meaning at the beginning of His ascension back into heaven while Daniel 7:11 is involving an event that doesn't even happen until Christ returns in the end of this age? Meaning Revelation 19:20.

 

[PinSeeker]

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! By his great mercy he gave us new birth into a living [záō] hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead" (1 Peter 1:3).

Could you please give the verses in the New Testament which talks about the quickening of the Spirit that use the word "raised" when the verse is not talking about the resurrection of the body from death?

I ask because the verse below is talking about the quickening [syzōopoiéō] of the Spirit:

"And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has [syzōopoiéō] quickened together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses" (Colossians 2:13).

But the verse below is talking both about the quickening of the Spirit and about the resurrection of the body:

"But God, who is rich in mercy, for His great love with which He loved us, even us being dead in sins, He has:
(A) syzōopoiéō (quickened) together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved);
(B) And has raised us up together [synegeírō], and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Ephesians 2:4-6).

Note that the word used in Ephesians 2:6 is synegeírō, i.e "with Christ's bodily resurrection".

Before this, Ephesians 2:4-5 speaks about our spiritual quickening with Christ's quickening (He too was quickened by the Spirit after He died), which is a prerequisite to this bodily resurrection.

Bear in mind that whereas the word syzōopoiéō refers to being made alive ("quickened") together with the Spirit's quickening of Christ after He died, the word synegeírō refers to being raised up together with Christ's bodily resurrection from death:

synegeírō is from the word egeírō, and though the words égersis; anístēmi; and egeírō are not always used in reference to the resurrection (sometimes they are used for rising up as in "get up!", or being raised up as a leader, or rising from sleep in a normal sense),

the rest of the time whenever you find the words in the New Testament, they are speaking about the resurrection of the body from the dead":-

|| Matthew 9:25; Matthew 10:8; Matthew 11:5; Matthew 14:2; Matthew 17:9; Matthew 16:21; Matthew 17:23; Matthew 20:19; Matthew 26:32; Matthew 27:52-53 & 63-64; Matthew 28:6-7; Mark 6:14 & 16; Mark 12:26; Mark 14:28; Mark 16:6 & 14; Luke 7:14; Luke 7:22; Luke 8:54; Luke 9:7 & 22; Luke 14:13-14; Luke 20:37; Luke 24:6; Luke 24:34; John 2:19-21; John 5:21; John 5:28-29; John 6:39, 40 & 44; John 11:23-35; John 12:1, 9 & 17; John 21:14; Acts 1:22; Acts 2:24, 31-32; Acts 3:15 & 26; Acts 4:1-2, 10 & 33; Acts 5:30; Acts 10:40; Acts 13:30 & 33-37; Acts 17:18 & 31-32; Acts 23:6-8; Acts 24:15 & 21; Acts 26:8; Romans 1:4; Romans 4:23-25; Romans 6:4-5; Romans 6:9; Romans 7:4; Romans 8:11; Romans 8:34; Romans 10:9; 1 Corinthians 6:14; 1 Corinthians 15:4, 12-23, 35-36, 42-45, 50-57; 2 Corinthians 1:9; 2 Corinthians 4:14; 2 Corinthians 5:15; Galatians 1:1; Ephesians 1:20; Ephesians 2:5-6; Ephesians 5:14; Philippians 3:10-11; Colossians 2:12-13; Colossians 3:1 (Compare with Romans 6:5); 1 Thessalonians 1:9-10; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-16; 2 Timothy 2:8 & 18; Hebrews 6:1-2; Hebrews 11:35; 1 Peter 1:3-5; 1 Peter 1:21; 1 Peter 3:18 & 21; Revelation 20:5-6. ||

The word anástasis is also always referring to the resurrection of the body from the dead, whenever it is found in the New Testament:-

|| Matthew 22:23, 28 & 30-31; Mark 12:18 & 23; Luke 2:34; Luke 14:14; Luke 20:27, 33, 35-36; John 5:29; John 11:24-25; Acts 1:22; Acts 2:31; Acts 4:2; Acts 4:33; Acts 17:18, 32; Acts 23:6, 8; Acts 24:15, 21; Acts 26:23; Romans 1:4; Romans 6:5; 1 Corinthians 15:12-13, 21, 42; Philippians 3:10; II Timothy 2:18; Hebrews 6:2; Hebrews 11:35; I Peter 1:3; I Peter 3:21; Revelation 20:5-6. ||

The words which speak about the quickening of the Spirit (zōopoiéō and syzōopoiéō) never refer to the resurrection of the body from the dead, or being raised. They only refer only to being quickened by the Spirit - including the one time Paul says if the Spirit of God dwells in us, He will also quicken our mortal bodies by His Spirit in us (our bodies need to be quickened in order to be resurrected).

It seems that there is a distinction made consistently throughout the New Testament between being quickened and being "raised", with the one implying birth by the Spirit, and the other implying the resurrection of the body

- which is why I ask if you can you give the verses in the New Testament which talks about the quickening of the Spirit (being born of the Spirit) that use the word "raised" when it's not talking about the resurrection of the body from death?

Just one thing to… all this… :) Sorry, just having a little good-natured fun with you… :)

Okay, so, you say that in Ephesians 2:4-6, Paul, in saying we have been raised, is indeed speaking of a resurrection. And it is we (believers) who have been resurrected. That’s great! I wholeheartedly agree. Okay, so, that we have been raised ~ he’s writing in the past tense, there, FOTG. Do you believe the Romans he was writing to had already been physically/bodily resurrected? And likewise, you and I have been made alive, and this letter is just as applicable, by extension, to you and me. So, by the same token, do you believe that you and I have been physically/bodily resurrected?

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Timtofly]

Because Scripture is abundantly clear for all who desire to accept it, the bodily resurrection of ALL who are in the graves shall not be before an hour that is coming when the last trumpet sounds. The only way to conclude there are two bodily resurrections is by reading a doctrinal presupposition into the text.

You are reading your own doctrinal presupposition into the text. So why do you keep using that point as a weapon against other posters?

You keep saying corporate body, but each of those souls only have life if they have individual bodies. That was God's plan since the 6th day creation of the sons of God. Mankind would always have a soul, a body, and a spirit. No one will see that appearance until the Second Coming.

Sin did not change God's plan. Adam's disobedience just postponed that plan for about 6,000 years. I doubt any one can claim they know why. But even that 6,000 years was God's plan, because God gave us the ability to choose. The choice Adam had was way easier than his descendants would be faced with. Adam had the easiest part, with the greatest end result. However each individual has to decide for themselves to have faith in obedience to God. That is the only way to please God.

Sin keeps us dead. God offers life through Jesus Christ. But to have life humans still have a soul, body, and spirit. Only having all three parts are we complete as sons of God. So creating some other doctrine that explains it any other way goes against the very Word of God.

 

[PinSeeker]

Paul isn't talking about the resurrection of Jesus.

Right… I… didn’t say he was… Yes, ours.

Rather, he is talking about the Ascension of Jesus.

Ah, he’s assuredly not talking about the event documented by Luke in Acts 1 (Christ’s ascension). He is saying, though, that we have been raised to where He is and seated with Him.

And I’m going to ask you the same question I asked Fullness Of The Gentiles. I’m not sure if you will answer similarly or not. But Paul is irrefutably writing there in the past tense. Do you believe the Roman Christians he was writing to had ~ and us, by extension, have ~ already been physically/bodily resurrected? And, are we physically sitting with Jesus?

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Timtofly]

That is absolutely not true. The seed sown does not rise again as a seed. It is completely different, not the same at all. The idea that in the resurrection we will be brought back to life as was Lazarus or Jesus or the many others spoken of in the Bible is simply not true. That is the whole point of Paul's discussion in 1 Corinthians 15.

Coming back like Lazarus and Jesus is the only type of resurrection. You just fail to understand the difference between Adam's dead corruptible physical body and God's permanent incorruptible physical body.

Of course there is a difference as Paul pointed out. The old seed died never to be seen again, but still produces a new and different body. But the metaphor pales in comparison to the real thing. The new body of a seed grows up, and produces more seeds and then dies again, and that seed dies again, over and over each generation. Paul's point is we don't become horses or apple trees when we die. Paul was pointing out the old Adam is dead and replaced with the body Jesus was conceived with in the womb that will never die again, because even that body defeated death because of a resurrection. That resurrection gave Jesus back the same body. But all resurrections of the rest of humanity is leaving Adam's body behind for a new body, not something else, not even a corporation of bodies. We are individuals on earth, we will forever be individuals, with our own soul, body, and spirit.

We never become anything else, so why would you change the metaphor to suite some erroneous theology? The seed that is sown will still produce the same body over and over again. The point was that the old "seed/body" was gone forever, and the new body was from God, not Adam.

 

[Timtofly]

It could be that Jesus commended the Holy Spirit into the Father’s hands. I think Jesus died alone so maybe this is where the Holy Spirit left Him?

I know some people think the Holy Spirit never left Jesus after He was baptized, I’m not trying to debate that, just throwing an idea out there.

Not so fast, nor so hesitant.

If only souls are in this place we call sheol or Abraham's bosom, then the body nor spirit are capable of going there even if God's Word points out there are spirits in prison.

Those spirits are said to be from a time prior to the Flood and belong to the actual sons of God, not Adam's dead corruptible flesh.

Adam's flesh is in a state of death. The physical body is of death, the soul is of death, and we have no access to our spirit. Our spirit is more than just air flowing through our veins.

So the Holy Spirit nor the actual spirit of Jesus did not go to Abraham's bosom. Only the soul went, and spent 3 days preaching as was stated. The body could have been turned to ashes if Satan had his way, but it was sealed in a tomb, and nothing was able to get to the body, until the soul returned.

So all those souls in Abraham's bosom were resurrected just like Lazarus, because that is the first resurrection, and they have reigned with Christ for 2 millennia, just like in the future some more will reign with Christ for an additional millennium. The length of time is not important. Who is reigning when is the point of Revelation 20.

Those in Matthew 27:51-53 are not the same souls who are in Revelation 20:4. The two resurrections are close to 2,000 years apart. For one, those in Matthew were all the redeemed since Enoch was translated by faith until Lazarus, and Lazarus was the last to die, and the first to be resurrected as Jesus said, the first will be last and the last will be first. All the OT redeemed have been physically enjoying Paradise since that point, when they ascended to heaven, and presented to God as the firstfruits. Jesus was not presenting Himself as being made alive from sin and death. The firstfruits were those removed from Abraham's bosom.

From that point on, the church would be physically gathered in Paradise in God's permanent incorruptible physical body, while souls were experiencing the second birth on earth, so they could physically join that heavenly cloud of witnesses upon leaving Adam's dead corruptible flesh. The dead indeed rise first. That is an ongoing phenomenon, and Jesus will bring them with Him to meet us in the air during the 5th and 6th Seal per Revelation 6.

Then the church will put on the spirit as John wrote signified as the putting on of the robe of white. Then the restoration from Adam's disobedience will be complete for the church. The Cross and Resurrection restored the physical body. The Second Coming restores the spirit. The Day of the Lord, that 1,000 year period is the restoration of the entire creation. All will be made alive, and then comes the end.

One could say that Jesus never died. Only His body was in a state of death, without a soul. His soul went to Abraham's bosom. His spirit went to Paradise with the thief. And the same body waited in the tomb until the soul returned. Did God cheat by not actually dying, or did Jesus point out that no one would have to taste death, any more including Himself? Jesus actually suffered for our sins, his soul actually went to sheol like all before and after Him who would reject God. All were convinced Jesus was physically dead for 3 days. And His body was in a state of death, but as a soul, what is death?

So having a physical body is the only resurrection, because the soul and spirit never die to be resurrected. And that is the first resurrection that also eliminates the second death. There is no second resurrection mentioned in Scripture out of the LOF.

 

[Zao is life]

Yea, I agree there is only one Michael.

The war in heaven in Revelation 12, do you see this as a physical war or as a court room battle? Notice Jude 1:9 is an argument which could’ve taken place before a judge.

I definitely believe that the law of God and the sins of God's people (which are transgressions of the law) provided Satan with a long scroll full of indictments that Satan could use against the brethren when accusing them before God,

but they overcame him by the blood of Christ, which represents His death for our transgressions of the law, and rising again from death.

"And I heard a great voice saying in Heaven, Now has come the salvation and power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of His Christ. For the accuser of our brothers is cast down, who accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb, and because of the word of their testimony. And they did not love their soul to the death."

So Satan had the rug pulled out from under him by the death and resurrection of Christ. He had no further indictment to bring forward against the brethren, hence no legal right to continue to appear before the seat of God the Judge, accusing the brethren.

But it isn't as though the adversary himself would respect either God's law or have any regard for his new illegal and illegitimate standing as the self-appointed prosecutor that he had been until then, so he wasn't going to leave without a fight.

Satan will never give up without a fight until the day he is destroyed in the lake of fire.

What took place is spiritual, and what we read in Revelation 12 is describing it to us in metaphorical terms. It's using metaphorical terms to describe the reality to us of what took place in heaven and what took place on earth as a result, and what is still taking place on earth (compare Revelation 12:17 and Revelation 13:7).

Also read from Revelation 12:17 through to Revelation 13:10, bearing in mind that the chapter divisions were only added for easy reference in 1227 A.D, when the verse numbers and verse divisions were also inserted

- the dragon who is giving the beast his seat, power and great authority is the same dragon that went to make war against "the rest of the woman's seed, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ",

and "it was given to (that beast) to war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given to it over every tribe and tongue and nation."

@grafted branch It could be that "the battle" was Satan behind the events leading to the crucifixion of Christ and the resurrection of Christ being his defeat, bearing in mind that the passage in Revelation 12:1-11 links Satan's defeat to the cross, the resurrection, and the ascension of Christ.

So that's what I believe. It's the reality of what took place and what is still taking place, written in metaphorical language, like most of the Revelation (although I do not believe that the beast of Revelation 13 will rise from the abyss until 42 months before the return of Christ).​

 

[Zao is life]

They are spiritually alive in heaven as souls after they die.

The word zao, whenever it's referring to humans, never refers to alive without a human body in the New Testament (not ever).

They do not live and reign with Christ in time AFTER they are martyred for their faith.

When, at what point in time exactly, in accordance with your theory did the beast rise who rose from the abyss and caused all who would not worship it, to be killed?

Why does it say they were were martyred because they refused to worship the beast?​

It is because they LIVED and REIGNED during this symbolic time, that they are souls in heaven a spiritual body of believers there. Like I said, we have to notice the tenses here.

Re 20:4 .... they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

No. Groups of people during the last 2,000 years have been beheaded for their refusal to worship the beast that is still to rise from the abyss, and each group lived and reigned with Christ as living souls with human bodies (zao) in heaven for as many years as remained of the 2,000 years after they had their turn to get beheaded, but they will only live and reign with Christ until the time, which is represented symbolically as a thousand years, ends. It has an end.

For example: Those who were beheaded for their refusal to worship the beast 100 years ago lived and reigned retroactively for 1,900 years and actively for 100 years, symbolized as 1,000 years. Notice the tenses.

(.. the millennium gospel according to rwb).​

 

[Zao is life]

Just one thing to… all this… :) Sorry, just having a little good-natured fun with you… :)

Okay, so, you say that in Ephesians 2:4-6, Paul, in saying we have been raised, is indeed speaking of a resurrection. And it is we (believers) who have been resurrected. That’s great! I wholeheartedly agree. Okay, so, that we have been raised ~ he’s writing in the past tense, there, FOTG. Do you believe the Romans he was writing to had already been physically/bodily resurrected? And likewise, you and I have been made alive, and this letter is just as applicable, by extension, to you and me. So, by the same token, do you believe that you and I have been physically/bodily resurrected?

Grace and peace to you.

It's very difficult for me to find clear ways of explaining this, and the angle from which many people are accustomed to looking at this from does not help, so I hope you'll be patient while I have one last try:

1 Peter 3:18-19
"For Christ also once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, indeed being put to death in the flesh,

but quickened | made alive [zoopoieo] in the Spirit [pneûma];

in which also He went and preached to the spirits in prison."

The above was before our Lord's resurrection. Before He was raised from the dead. His body was still dead.

Quickening: Being born of the Spirit relates to the quickening (zōopoiéō) of the Spirit, and the quickening of individuals always occurs with (syzōopoiéō) the quickening experienced by Christ after He died, which occurred while He was dead (before He was raised from the dead):

"But God, who is rich in mercy, for His great love with which He loved us, even us being dead in sins, He has syzōopoiéō (quickened together with) Christ, (by grace ye are saved)". (Ephesians 2:4-5).

Resurrection: | being raised from the dead: The resurrection (anástasis) always relates to the resurrection of the body, and we are told that the dead body will be raised from the dead with (synegeírō) Christ's bodily rising from the dead, who was first quickened, and as a result, raised:

".. and has synegeírō (raised us up together with Christ's bodily resurrection), and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Ephesians 2:6).

Not raised: The word syzōopoiéō refers to being made alive ("quickened") together with the Spirit's quickening of Christ after He died, by the same Spirit of God breathing life into a person. Remember that Jesus was only raised from the dead after He was quickened.

Raised: The word synegeírō refers to being raised up together with Christ's bodily resurrection from death.

1 Peter 1:3
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! By his great mercy he gave us new birth (anagennáō) into a living (záō) hope THROUGH the resurrection (anástasis) of Jesus Christ from the dead".

1 Peter 1:3 tells us that God has caused us to be born of the Spirit of God THROUGH the bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ, but it's not a "spiritual resurrection" or "spiritual rising from death" that Peter is talking about - that's not what it's saying.

The New Testament uses different words for the quickening by the Spirit on one hand, and being raised from the dead (the resurrection) on the other hand, for a reason.

Okay just ask yourself: Is the quickening by the spirit (zōopoiéō) and the resurrection (being raised) the same thing? Or does the latter come about as a result of the former?

Take a look at it from a different angle than you are accustomed to:

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! By his great mercy he gave us new birth (anagennáō) into a living (záō) hope THROUGH the resurrection (anástasis) of Jesus Christ from the dead" (1 Peter 1:3).

Hope of what, after we have been quickened?​

 

[JBO]

Coming back like Lazarus and Jesus is the only type of resurrection. You just fail to understand the difference between Adam's dead corruptible physical body and God's permanent incorruptible physical body.

Yes, that is true. But only because there is no such thing as a permanent incorruptible physical body now nor will there ever be.

1Co 15:35 But someone will ask, "How are the dead raised? With what kind of body do they come?"
1Co 15:36 You foolish person! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies.
1Co 15:37 And what you sow is not the body that is to be, but a bare kernel, perhaps of wheat or of some other grain.

1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

If, as you say, there will be God's permanent incorruptible physical body in the resurrection, why didn't God make the bodies of Adam and Eve incorruptible physical bodies? Why did He even create this physical corruptible world in the first place? Apparently, according to your view of things, God created the corruptible world just so He could send most of the human beings to eternal condemnation., because that is what is going to happen.

And by the way, there is absolutely nothing in the Bible about Lazarus' body and Jesus' body being raised as incorruptible bodies.

 

[JBO]

Not raised: The word syzōopoiéō refers to being made alive ("quickened") together with the Spirit's quickening of Christ after He died, by the same Spirit of God breathing life into a person. Remember that Jesus was only raised from the dead after He was quickened.​

What in the world are you talking about. Jesus was never "quickened". The word "quickened" is a KJV rendering of the Greek word, "zōopoieō" meaning to be made alive, i.e., spiritually regenerated. It is another expression for born again. Jesus as never spiritually regenerated. He was never dead in trespasses and sins that He needed to be regenerated, i.e., (KJV) "quickened".

Man, you are really confused about all of this.

 

[Zao is life]

What in the world are you talking about. Jesus was never "quickened". The word "quickened" is a KJV rendering of the Greek word, "zōopoieō" meaning to be made alive, i.e., spiritually regenerated. It is another expression for born again. Jesus as never spiritually regenerated. He was never dead in trespasses and sins that He needed to be regenerated, i.e., (KJV) "quickened".

Man, you are really confused about all of this.

You really don't know what you are talking about, do you? "Made alive" is the more modern English rendering of "quickened":

For Christ also has once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened [zōopoiéō] by the Spirit, By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison" -- 1 Peter 3:18-19

Do you believe that our sins were laid upon Jesus? Do you believe that He bore our sins in His own body on the cross when He died?

Do you believe that Jesus died? Why did He die, do you think? Because of His own sin, or because of our sin?

Do you believe that once He died, that Jesus did not have to be quickened by the Spirit so that He could rise again from the dead?

You show up your ignorance of scripture like this time and time again in these boards.