They will reign with Him a thousand years and making an unknown Greek out of the English New Testament

[ewq1938]

The problem I have as a Premillennialist with this is:

"The hour is coming in which all who are in the graves shall hear His voice."

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,



There will come a time/hour that all baseball teams will play against another team but that doesn't mean all on the same day. A time will come for all the dead to be raised. First, the dead in Christ rise, then after a thousand years "the rest of the dead" will rise. That's what we find when looking at all of the related passages. Leaving the most detailed passage out of this is clear error.

Another analogy:

"For the hour is coming, in which all who start and complete high school shall graduate."

No one would argue that every single person who completes high school will all graduate the same hour, or same day, or even the same year. Obviously, freshmen don't graduate when seniors do.



To understand this even more fully the word "hour" must be understood:

"hour" can be any amount of time since it can be literal or figurative:

G5610
??´?a
ho¯ra
ho'-rah
Apparently a primary word; an “hour” (literally or figuratively): - day, hour, instant, season, X short, [even-] tide, (high) time.
Total KJV occurrences: 108

It's been translated as hour, day and even season.

Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

So, in this unknown amount of time there will be two resurrections. First (called the first resurrection) the dead in Christ will be resurrected. Then much later in this same "hora", at it's end, will the second and last resurrection take place and that's "the rest of the dead" who did not rise with the first group.

 

[rwb]

You chose the word "ascended". Be careful with the terminology you use, is all I'm saying. We do not "ascend" to heaven. Christ ascended. The Bible states very clearly that the only one who has ascended into heaven is Christ, who also descended.

Christ has already ascended to where we will be with Him when we die physically. But we do not "ascend" there. He has already ascended there for us, and because we are in Him when we die in Him, we will be with Him where He has already ascended to.

I use the word ascended because that is what we read in Scripture. When Christ ascended to heaven, those who were dead ascended with Him there.

Ephesians 4:8-10 (KJV) Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

He did not go into heaven when He died. He went down to hades. On the third day He was resurrected from the dead. He only ascended into heaven 40 days later.

I just showed you a passage from Eph 4 that contradicts what you say here. The spirit of Christ returned to the Father in heaven the moment His body died. We read the same thing about Stephen who cried out to God to receive his spirit as he was dying. Sometime before ascending bodily to heaven after His resurrection, Christ, through His Spirit first went to preach to spirits in prison (in bondage to death) and apparently set the captives free by taking them a spiritual body of believers to heaven with Him.

Acts 7:59 (KJV) And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

1 Peter 3:18-19 (KJV) For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

Raising from what? If your spirit wasn't alive (i.e did not have the Spirit of God until you were born of the Spirit), then raising from what? What is being born | quickened of the Spirit, and why is being born of the Spirit called the quickening or making alive, but never "raised" in the New Testament?

Raising from being spiritually dead in trespasses and sins to being spiritually alive through the Spirit of Christ within. When the last trumpet sounds our body will be resurrected from physical death to immortal and incorruptible everlasting life, not made spiritually alive, but physically alive

And when that occurs John sees some who had been beheaded for refusal to worship the beast living in their resurrected bodies and he sees them as beginning to reign with Christ a thousand years.

That is not what Scripture tells us. John writes these martyred souls are alive because in life before they died the "LIVED and REIGNED with Christ a thousand years. There is only one period of time written in Rev 20. It is symbolically written a/the thousand years. It symbolizes time from the first advent of Christ until this time shall be no longer. IMO it is time given the Church to proclaim the Gospel unto all the nations of the world so the spiritual Kingdom of God shall be complete as many Gentiles turn from darkness and death to Light and Life through Christ.

.

 

[rwb]

Matthew 27:52-53 says “saints” arose so if some are going to everlasting contempt as Daniel 12:2 says then you have saints receiving everlasting contempt. I personally think the word “saints” in some cases can be referring to national Israel but that’s something that is debatable.

Daniel is referring to this age of Gospel grace. Some, those who died in faith of Old, believing the Messiah/Redeemer would come arose from the grave a spiritual body of believers and appeared in the holy, heavenly city new Jerusalem and were seen by the whole hosts of heaven. That's why we find nothing recorded in Scripture of saints being physically resurrected from the graves after the resurrection of Christ. Those who were left in the graves are all who shall be bodily resurrected to everlasting contempt when this age of Gospel grace has ended.

 

[rwb]

It looks like we’re on the same page in regard to Daniel 12:2 and Matthew 27:52-53.

In Revelation 12:7 Michael fights the dragon and in Daniel 12:1 at that time shall Michael stand up … and there shall be a time of trouble. I place Revelation 12:7 and Daniel 12:1 happening at the same time as both are referring to an action by Michael.

The trouble in Daniel 12:1, do you place that trouble taking place in heaven? Do you think it’s the same trouble as the Matthew 24:21 great tribulation?

I believe Dan 12:1 is also referring to the advent of Christ. When we compare it to the battle that took place in heaven we find Satan and his angels were cast out of heaven and bound to the earth when Christ was born. That is when the age of Gospel grace began, but Christ must live a sinless life, make atonement for sin and defeat death before anyone could ascend to heaven a spiritual body. Of course, we know He did this through His life, the cross, and resurrection from the dead.

While I do believe that Satan's ejection from heaven is the beginning of "great tribulation" like none other, I believe it was when the three year ministry of Christ began with His anointing when He began to cast out devils and demons that it began to be known and felt by His disciples.

 

[grafted branch]

Daniel is referring to this age of Gospel grace. Some, those who died in faith of Old, believing the Messiah/Redeemer would come arose from the grave a spiritual body of believers and appeared in the holy, heavenly city new Jerusalem and were seen by the whole hosts of heaven. That's why we find nothing recorded in Scripture of saints being physically resurrected from the graves after the resurrection of Christ. Those who were left in the graves are all who shall be bodily resurrected to everlasting contempt when this age of Gospel grace has ended.

Well, Daniel 12:2 says many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. If this is a spiritual resurrection then it doesn’t match the first resurrection in Revelation 20, because no one at the first resurrection gets everlasting contempt. It might match the second resurrection but then it doesn’t fit time wise with Matthew 27:52-53.

 

[grafted branch]

I believe Dan 12:1 is also referring to the advent of Christ. When we compare it to the battle that took place in heaven we find Satan and his angels were cast out of heaven and bound to the earth when Christ was born. That is when the age of Gospel grace began, but Christ must live a sinless life, make atonement for sin and defeat death before anyone could ascend to heaven a spiritual body. Of course, we know He did this through His life, the cross, and resurrection from the dead.

While I do believe that Satan's ejection from heaven is the beginning of "great tribulation" like none other, I believe it was when the three year ministry of Christ began with His anointing when He began to cast out devils and demons that it began to be known and felt by His disciples.

An Amil I spoke to some time ago told me there is a symmetry between Jesus and Satan.

They both had free access to heaven and earth. Then they are both on earth during the time Jesus was on earth. Satan enters Judas to become spiritual being/man the same as Jesus. Both Jesus and Judas die. Then Satan is bound to the pit while Jesus rises and reigns from heaven. Then in the future Satan will be loosed to prepare for battle and the bride makes herself ready, then the final battle happens.

Do you see this kind of symmetry in the Bible or would you say that kind of interpretation is incorrect?

 

[rwb]

An Amil I spoke to some time ago told me there is a symmetry between Jesus and Satan.

They both had free access to heaven and earth. Then they are both on earth during the time Jesus was on earth. Satan enters Judas to become spiritual being/man the same as Jesus. Both Jesus and Judas die. Then Satan is bound to the pit while Jesus rises and reigns from heaven. Then in the future Satan will be loosed to prepare for battle and the bride makes herself ready, then the final battle happens.

Do you see this kind of symmetry in the Bible or would you say that kind of interpretation is incorrect?

All I will say about this is that it is not what I have heard from any other Amillennial believer.

 

[Timtofly]

Physically resurrected without a head? How else would John know they had been beheaded? He saw them physically alive without heads?
Strange doctrine!

It was not after their resurrection that they looked beheaded. John saw the souls of those beheaded. They were judged. They were awarded a first, physical resurrection, as the result of that judgment.

"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded... This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."

Is this a continuous throne judgment set up for all who have died in your millennium?

The souls were judged and then given a physical resurrection. Do you think it was just souls sitting on those thrones?

 

[rwb]

Well, Daniel 12:2 says many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. If this is a spiritual resurrection then it doesn’t match the first resurrection in Revelation 20, because no one at the first resurrection gets everlasting contempt. It might match the second resurrection but then it doesn’t fit time wise with Matthew 27:52-53.

Since Daniel 12 is prophecy pointing to the advent of Christ coming as the Messiah/Redeemer the prophecy goes from the advent of Christ's birth to the end of days. It covers the same time period John writes symbolically as a thousand years. Not literally one thousand years, but time that runs from the first advent of Christ to the end of this age. So, Daniel speaks of both the saints of Old spiritually ascending to heaven with Christ, a spiritual body of believers, and of all the dead in the dust of the earth who shall be bodily resurrected to everlasting contempt at the end of days.

 

[Timtofly]

Doesn’t being literally beheaded also cause a problem for Premil?

There would be no need to traumatize anyone, in the future an option could easily be given to believers where they could go into a clinic, get anesthetized, and painlessly get their head chopped off. Wouldn’t this be something that is highly valued because that would mean you get to reign with Christ for the millennium? This would certainly be the easiest, most efficient route for the beast to take in order to eliminate believers.

If so then the tribulation would be a very peaceful time, families or entire churches could just all go to the clinics at the same time and not have to miss their friends and family.

Do you not understand the time of Abomination of Desolation? God is placing an expiration mark on humanity, removing them from the Lamb's book of life. God's salvation is removed. Daniel 9:27; the daily sacrifice is taken away. That means no more Atonement nor Hope. People will not be looking to get beheaded on accident nor for fun. Do you think people will be giving up their fleshly desires willingly? People reject God when things are going great. What Satan offers during his mystery Babylonian Empire will be a stronger temptation, than simply cutting off your head.

I have attempted to point out these are not martyrs for the same reason. Why would Satan offer humans a way to escape from the troubles of life, that gives them eternal life, while avoiding the LOF? Satan wants people separated from God. Satan would not give them a way to escape the LOF, and be with God eternally. Satan is not going to set up eternal life centers, where people can instantly be redeemed and set free from sin and death, by comfortably cutting their head off. Nor cutting off their head for any reason.
These are not martyrs. These are people who choose death by faith. They trust God more than the offers Satan is presenting to humanity.

 

[Zao is life]

When you carefully read what John has written you will find him saying there are souls alive in heaven after being martyred for their faithfulness in life.

You've just made it clear yet again that you obviously haven't carefully read what John has written in Revelation 20, because when you carefully read what John has written, you'll find him saying that he saw them zao (alive in their bodies), which if you took the trouble to, you will discover always, when talking about the life of humans, refers to people living | alive in their bodies, throughout the New Testament (without exception when talking about humans, and the only exceptions being when zao is talking about the living God ).

When you read carefully what John has written, you'll also find him linking what he said about seeing those who had been beheaded alive in their bodies, with the resurrection, calling it "the first resurrection" and saying that those who have part in the first resurrection (which is Christ's resurrection, since He IS the resurrection and the life), are blessed and holy.

When you read carefully what John has written, you will not insert the words "in heaven" into the text (eisgegesis) or separate the resurrection John spoke of with the zao of those John saw alive after they had been beheaded (more eisegesis).

So when you've carefully read the text without eisegetically adding words like "in heaven" to the text and have stopped practicing even more eisegesis by separating the resurrection being spoken of in the text from the rest of what is being said (because the text does not warrant such a separation), then you may be able to be taken seriously about something you say regarding Revelation 20:4-6.​

 

[PinSeeker]

Our spirit is only dead in trespasses and sins.

“Only…” As if it is some mere thing… :).
when Paul says the natural man is spiritually dead in his sin/trespass, he means is saying he is in a state of spiritual alienation from God. Life is communion with God, and apart from communion with God there is no real life. One can be breathing, doing, choosing, etc., but if he is not in saving fellowship with the God who him for eternal fellowship with Himself, he is not experiencing life. So, Paul is saying, “Here is the status of all humanity apart from the grace of Christ: spiritual alienation from God ~ at enmity with Him is how it is put elsewhere ~ and that means to be dead regardless of one’s physical state… it is spiritual death. Sin is the root of this spiritual death; it is the cause of his being at enmity with and thus alienation from God, and this alienation Paul calls death. We are, if not born again of the spirit, dead. Indeed, we have to be born again in order to not remain dead in this way, in order to escape, to be freed of, this spiritual death.

…we have the breath of life (spirit)…

We all have a spirit, yes, I agree, of course. But this is a different thing entirely. Hopefully, what I said above clears things at least a bit. :)

Being born again is not being resurrected from spiritual death which we would have to be if our spirit was without any life. To be born again is to be raised from being dead in trespasses and sins to being spiritually alive through His Spirit in us.

My goodness. RWB, basically, in the first sentence here, you said “it’s not,” and in the second sentence, you said “it is.” :) Again, yes, we all, as living human beings, have a spirit, but this does not mean, necessarily, that we are spiritually alive in Paul’s context of ~ contrastingly ~ being spiritually dead. Having a spirit and being spiritually alive… no longer being at enmity and hence in communion with God… are two very different things.

IOW when we are born again of Calling our new birth a resurrection introduces unnecessary confusion…

Paul says we are made alive (and we have to have been dead in some way to be “made alive”), and this is our being born again of the Spirit. And, RWB ~ you can say “then” if you like, thereby making this a separate, sequential thing ~ and, we are raised up ~ this is a resurrection; the Greek term Paul uses there absolutely indicates this ~ and seated with Christ in the heavenly places… this is our spiritual resurrection from the spiritual state of death we were previously in.

We must be born again of the Spirit, not resurrected from physical death…

Sure. But we must be physically resurrected to enter into the New Heaven and New Earth. Well, us Christians, of course; unbulievers are physically resurrected also, but to judgment rather than to eternal life. We are not… ghosts… in eternity.

which is what resurrection in Scripture is defined as.

Resurrection is used in two different contexts, RWB. And both, but separately, in Revelation 20. There is a spiritual resurrection, and it is individual and specific only to God’s elect ~ this is the resurrection related by Paul in Ephesians 2:6 and the resurrection “seen” by John in Revelation 20:4-6. And there is also a physical, bodily resurrection, and it is collective and general to all, but to one thing (eternal life) or the other (judgment).

The only resurrection mentioned in Rev 20:4-6 is the first resurrection which says those who have part in it have overcome the second death.

Hmm, well, I say :) that since it is called the first resurrection, it very strongly implies and necessarily means that there must be… is… a second resurrection. This idea of a first and second runs throughout Scripture. In the scene we come to finally in Revelation 11, the second resurrection, the physical/bodily resurrection, is not explicitly mentioned but has has just taken place, and is very strongly implied by John when he says (a) that he “saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done” (these are God’s elect, who have been resurrected to eternal life), and (b) “the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done” (these are unbelievers, those resurrected to judgment).

John writes of faithful souls who lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years alive after death, being faithful unto death. He makes no mention of them being resurrected to life again, and says only that they are alive.

Ugh. :). Sorry. :). See above. I thought we were fairly close together on these things. We do agree on a lot, I think. Oh well. Okay, no worries. I think it’s enough. :)

You're right David, there surely is something very wrong with that understanding of Rev 20.

Well, up to this point you and David have been misconstruing even the understanding I have been relating, making it into something other than it is. Whether that has been inadvertent or purposeful is a question worth asking. :)

The main focus of this chapter IMO is to give faithful saints assurance that we have everlasting life…

That’s… the real purpose of Revelation as a whole…

when we have part in Christ who is the first resurrection…

Christ’s is the first physical resurrection, yes. He was not in need of the first resurrection in John’s context in Revelation 20:4-6, the spiritual resurrection. He was never spiritually dead; He’s God. :)

…that physical death as Paul has said cannot separate the faithful from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Ro 8:34-39)

Well, he says nothing on all creation, so he’s talking about in this life, too.

When you carefully read what John has written you will find him saying there are souls alive in heaven after being martyred for their faithfulness in life. They are alive in heaven because during their lifetimes they "lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years." IOW during their lives before they died in this time symbolized a thousand years, they remained faithful unto death. John also speaks of others who shall reign with Christ during their lifetimes also symbolically written as a thousand years….

I… exhort you, RWB, to carefully read ~ carefully reread John’s words. Each of their lifetimes symbolized a thousand years? So there are a great many millenniums? Goodness gracious. Surely that’s not what you mean…

Hm. Grace and peace to you.

 

[Zao is life]

The first resurrection is the bodily resurrection of Christ because He is the first resurrection of the dead to never die again.

Agreed.

If only you would not add to the text a little later, with the same eisegesis that marks so much of what you say when you post:

Matthew is writing of the spirits of just men being raised from the grave to ascend a spiritual body of believers to heaven

It neither says nor implies that they did not rise from the dead in their physical bodies. It says nothing about being raised from the dead as "a spiritual body of believers". They went into the holy city. That's what it says, and that's all it says.

Once again you've chosen words that reflect a meaning that you have imagined, even though that is not what it says. You are once again practicing eisegesis (with yet another text). That eisegesis of yours is like your own rubber stamp that appears in many, if not most, of your posts. It's a totally illegitimate handling of the Word of God. You (or anyone else) are not at liberty to do that with scripture.

IMO you have an almost agnostic approach to scripture with the way you keep falsely asserting that people can be alive in heaven in "spiritual bodies" that have been resurrected from the dead.

Daniel 12:2 is NOT referring to the bodily resurrection when the last trumpet sounds. If it were it would not say "many" shall awake. It would say "all" who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake.

I disagree. The word "all" in John 5:28 is the Greek word pâs, and it does not always mean "each and every one" in the New Testament.

It does not mean "each and every one" when speaking of "all Jerusalem" in Matthew 2:3.

It does not mean "each and every one" when speaking of "all Judea" and "all the region round about Jordan" in Matthew 3:5.

It does not mean "each and every one" when speaking of "all manner of sickness" and "all manner of diseases" in Matthew 4:23.

It does not mean "each and every one" when speaking of "all sick people" in Matthew 4:24.

The list goes on.

So what you say above is not necessarily true. We also should not force meanings into any text unless we are 100% sure, and there is at least one other biblical fact that makes it seem far more likely that Daniel 12:2 and John 5:28 are referring to the same thing, that is to take place at the same time.

IMO you have started with a premise that you have imagined is the case, and then forced that premise into the text.

Notice the wording I chose: "So what you say above is not necessarily true". Why would I choose the word "necessarily"?

It's because it cannot be ascertained beyond the shadow of any doubt either way whether or not it means "each and every one" in John 5:28, and unlike you, I do not start with my own imagined premise that I force into the interpretation of the text. Daniel 12 and Revelation 10:4-7 have a lot of similarity (as anyone who reads and compares both texts will notice) - and Revelation 10 is talking about what is to take place just before the 7th trumpet sounds.

Daniel is referring to the first advent of Christ that will end when He comes again at the end of this Gospel age.

That's not true. Daniel 12 was closing what Daniel wrote in other chapters about Antiochus IV Epiphanes' activities, and applying it at the same time to the fourth beast at the end of our Age and the time of the return of Christ.

Daniel, like Matthew 27:52-53 writes of when the graves were opened and many bodies of saints which slept arose. This was not the physical bodily resurrection that shall not be before an hour coming when the last trumpet sounds.

Matthew 27:52-53 talks about a physical bodily resurrection that took place immediately after the resurrection of Christ.

Daniel 12:2 (KJV) And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Matthew 27:52-53 (KJV) And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

The two are not linked to the same time, and your interpretation of these things is extremely flawed, IMO, because you begin with an imagined meaning that was produced by your own false assumptions about a number of other things, and then force it into the text, and this comes out loud and clear once again in your post quoted above.

 

[Zao is life]

“Only…” As if it is some mere thing… :).
when Paul says the natural man is spiritually dead in his sin/trespass, he means is saying he is in a state of spiritual alienation from God. Life is communion with God, and apart from communion with God there is no real life. One can be breathing, doing, choosing, etc., but if he is not in saving fellowship with the God who him for eternal fellowship with Himself, he is not experiencing life. So, Paul is saying, “Here is the status of all humanity apart from the grace of Christ: spiritual alienation from God ~ at enmity with Him is how it is put elsewhere ~ and that means to be dead regardless of one’s physical state… it is spiritual death. Sin is the root of this spiritual death; it is the cause of his being at enmity with and thus alienation from God, and this alienation Paul calls death. We are, if not born again of the spirit, dead. Indeed, we have to be born again in order to not remain dead in this way, in order to escape, to be freed of, this spiritual death.


We all have a spirit, yes, I agree, of course. But this is a different thing entirely. Hopefully, what I said above clears things at least a bit. :)


My goodness. RWB, basically, in the first sentence here, you said “it’s not,” and in the second sentence, you said “it is.” :) Again, yes, we all, as living human beings, have a spirit, but this does not mean, necessarily, that we are spiritually alive in Paul’s context of ~ contrastingly ~ being spiritually dead. Having a spirit and being spiritually alive… no longer being at enmity and hence in communion with God… are two very different things.

Paul says we are made alive (and we have to have been dead in some way to be “made alive”), and this is our being born again of the Spirit. And, RWB ~ you can say “then” if you like, thereby making this a separate, sequential thing ~ and, we are raised up ~ this is a resurrection; the Greek term Paul uses there absolutely indicates this ~ and seated with Christ in the heavenly places… this is our spiritual resurrection from the spiritual state of death we were previously in.


Sure. But we must be physically resurrected to enter into the New Heaven and New Earth. Well, us Christians, of course; unbulievers are physically resurrected also, but to judgment rather than to eternal life. We are not… ghosts… in eternity.


Resurrection is used in two different contexts, RWB. And both, but separately, in Revelation 20. There is a spiritual resurrection, and it is individual and specific only to God’s elect ~ this is the resurrection related by Paul in Ephesians 2:6 and the resurrection “seen” by John in Revelation 20:4-6. And there is also a physical, bodily resurrection, and it is collective and general to all, but to one thing (eternal life) or the other (judgment).


Hmm, well, I say :) that since it is called the first resurrection, it very strongly implies and necessarily means that there must be… is… a second resurrection. This idea of a first and second runs throughout Scripture. In the scene we come to finally in Revelation 11, the second resurrection, the physical/bodily resurrection, is not explicitly mentioned but has has just taken place, and is very strongly implied by John when he says (a) that he “saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done” (these are God’s elect, who have been resurrected to eternal life), and (b) “the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done” (these are unbelievers, those resurrected to judgment).


Ugh. :). Sorry. :). See above. I thought we were fairly close together on these things. We do agree on a lot, I think. Oh well. Okay, no worries. I think it’s enough. :)


Well, up to this point you and David have been misconstruing even the understanding I have been relating, making it into something other than it is. Whether that has been inadvertent or purposeful is a question worth asking. :)


That’s… the real purpose of Revelation as a whole…


Christ’s is the first physical resurrection, yes. He was not in need of the first resurrection in John’s context in Revelation 20:4-6, the spiritual resurrection. He was never spiritually dead; He’s God. :)



Well, he says nothing on all creation, so he’s talking about in this life, too.


I… exhort you, RWB, to carefully read ~ carefully reread John’s words. Each of their lifetimes symbolized a thousand years? So there are a great many millenniums? Goodness gracious. Surely that’s not what you mean…

Hm. Grace and peace to you.

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! By his great mercy he gave us new birth into a living [záō] hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead" (1 Peter 1:3).

Could you please give the verses in the New Testament which talks about the quickening of the Spirit that use the word "raised" when the verse is not talking about the resurrection of the body from death?

I ask because the verse below is talking about the quickening [syzōopoiéō] of the Spirit:

"And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has [syzōopoiéō] quickened together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses" (Colossians 2:13).

But the verse below is talking both about the quickening of the Spirit and about the resurrection of the body:

"But God, who is rich in mercy, for His great love with which He loved us, even us being dead in sins, He has:
(A) syzōopoiéō (quickened) together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved);
(B) And has raised us up together [synegeírō], and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Ephesians 2:4-6).

Note that the word used in Ephesians 2:6 is synegeírō, i.e "with Christ's bodily resurrection".

Before this, Ephesians 2:4-5 speaks about our spiritual quickening with Christ's quickening (He too was quickened by the Spirit after He died), which is a prerequisite to this bodily resurrection.

Bear in mind that whereas the word syzōopoiéō refers to being made alive ("quickened") together with the Spirit's quickening of Christ after He died, the word synegeírō refers to being raised up together with Christ's bodily resurrection from death:

synegeírō is from the word egeírō, and though the words égersis; anístēmi; and egeírō are not always used in reference to the resurrection (sometimes they are used for rising up as in "get up!", or being raised up as a leader, or rising from sleep in a normal sense),

the rest of the time whenever you find the words in the New Testament, they are speaking about the resurrection of the body from the dead":-

|| Matthew 9:25; Matthew 10:8; Matthew 11:5; Matthew 14:2; Matthew 17:9; Matthew 16:21; Matthew 17:23; Matthew 20:19; Matthew 26:32; Matthew 27:52-53 & 63-64; Matthew 28:6-7; Mark 6:14 & 16; Mark 12:26; Mark 14:28; Mark 16:6 & 14; Luke 7:14; Luke 7:22; Luke 8:54; Luke 9:7 & 22; Luke 14:13-14; Luke 20:37; Luke 24:6; Luke 24:34; John 2:19-21; John 5:21; John 5:28-29; John 6:39, 40 & 44; John 11:23-35; John 12:1, 9 & 17; John 21:14; Acts 1:22; Acts 2:24, 31-32; Acts 3:15 & 26; Acts 4:1-2, 10 & 33; Acts 5:30; Acts 10:40; Acts 13:30 & 33-37; Acts 17:18 & 31-32; Acts 23:6-8; Acts 24:15 & 21; Acts 26:8; Romans 1:4; Romans 4:23-25; Romans 6:4-5; Romans 6:9; Romans 7:4; Romans 8:11; Romans 8:34; Romans 10:9; 1 Corinthians 6:14; 1 Corinthians 15:4, 12-23, 35-36, 42-45, 50-57; 2 Corinthians 1:9; 2 Corinthians 4:14; 2 Corinthians 5:15; Galatians 1:1; Ephesians 1:20; Ephesians 2:5-6; Ephesians 5:14; Philippians 3:10-11; Colossians 2:12-13; Colossians 3:1 (Compare with Romans 6:5); 1 Thessalonians 1:9-10; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-16; 2 Timothy 2:8 & 18; Hebrews 6:1-2; Hebrews 11:35; 1 Peter 1:3-5; 1 Peter 1:21; 1 Peter 3:18 & 21; Revelation 20:5-6. ||

The word anástasis is also always referring to the resurrection of the body from the dead, whenever it is found in the New Testament:-

|| Matthew 22:23, 28 & 30-31; Mark 12:18 & 23; Luke 2:34; Luke 14:14; Luke 20:27, 33, 35-36; John 5:29; John 11:24-25; Acts 1:22; Acts 2:31; Acts 4:2; Acts 4:33; Acts 17:18, 32; Acts 23:6, 8; Acts 24:15, 21; Acts 26:23; Romans 1:4; Romans 6:5; 1 Corinthians 15:12-13, 21, 42; Philippians 3:10; II Timothy 2:18; Hebrews 6:2; Hebrews 11:35; I Peter 1:3; I Peter 3:21; Revelation 20:5-6. ||

The words which speak about the quickening of the Spirit (zōopoiéō and syzōopoiéō) never refer to the resurrection of the body from the dead, or being raised. They only refer only to being quickened by the Spirit - including the one time Paul says if the Spirit of God dwells in us, He will also quicken our mortal bodies by His Spirit in us (our bodies need to be quickened in order to be resurrected).

It seems that there is a distinction made consistently throughout the New Testament between being quickened and being "raised", with the one implying birth by the Spirit, and the other implying the resurrection of the body

- which is why I ask if you can you give the verses in the New Testament which talks about the quickening of the Spirit (being born of the Spirit) that use the word "raised" when it's not talking about the resurrection of the body from death?

 

[CadyandZoe]

Yes, he does... :) We have been raised up with Christ...

Paul isn't talking about the resurrection of Jesus. Rather, he is talking about the Ascension of Jesus.

 

[ewq1938]

You've just made it clear yet again that you obviously haven't carefully read what John has written in Revelation 20, because when you carefully read what John has written, you'll find him saying that he saw them zao (alive in their bodies), which if you took the trouble to, you will discover always, when talking about the life of humans, refers to people living | alive in their bodies, throughout the New Testament (without exception when talking about humans, and the only exceptions being when zao is talking about the living God ).
​

In addition, any physically dead person said to be alive/ZAO means they had been resurrected. The strawman argument from Amill is predictably that ZAO does not mean resurrection, just means alive but most who study Greek already know that. The being dead first (head cut off), then seen as ZAO proves a resurrection made the dead person ZAO again.

 

[JBO]

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! By his great mercy he gave us new birth into a living [záō] hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead" (1 Peter 1:3).

Could you please give the verses in the New Testament which talks about the quickening of the Spirit that use the word "raised" when the verse is not talking about the resurrection of the body from death?

I ask because the verse below is talking about the quickening [syzōopoiéō] of the Spirit:

"And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has [syzōopoiéō] quickened together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses" (Colossians 2:13).

But the verse below is talking both about the quickening of the Spirit and about the resurrection of the body:

"But God, who is rich in mercy, for His great love with which He loved us, even us being dead in sins, He has:
(A) syzōopoiéō (quickened) together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved);
(B) And has raised us up together [synegeírō], and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Ephesians 2:4-6).

Note that the word used in Ephesians 2:6 is synegeírō, i.e "with Christ's bodily resurrection".

Before this, Ephesians 2:4-5 speaks about our spiritual quickening with Christ's quickening (He too was quickened by the Spirit after He died), which is a prerequisite to this bodily resurrection.

Bear in mind that whereas the word syzōopoiéō refers to being made alive ("quickened") together with the Spirit's quickening of Christ after He died, the word synegeírō refers to being raised up together with Christ's bodily resurrection from death:

synegeírō is from the word egeírō, and though the words égersis; anístēmi; and egeírō are not always used in reference to the resurrection (sometimes they are used for rising up as in "get up!", or being raised up as a leader, or rising from sleep in a normal sense),

the rest of the time whenever you find the words in the New Testament, they are speaking about the resurrection of the body from the dead":-

|| Matthew 9:25; Matthew 10:8; Matthew 11:5; Matthew 14:2; Matthew 17:9; Matthew 16:21; Matthew 17:23; Matthew 20:19; Matthew 26:32; Matthew 27:52-53 & 63-64; Matthew 28:6-7; Mark 6:14 & 16; Mark 12:26; Mark 14:28; Mark 16:6 & 14; Luke 7:14; Luke 7:22; Luke 8:54; Luke 9:7 & 22; Luke 14:13-14; Luke 20:37; Luke 24:6; Luke 24:34; John 2:19-21; John 5:21; John 5:28-29; John 6:39, 40 & 44; John 11:23-35; John 12:1, 9 & 17; John 21:14; Acts 1:22; Acts 2:24, 31-32; Acts 3:15 & 26; Acts 4:1-2, 10 & 33; Acts 5:30; Acts 10:40; Acts 13:30 & 33-37; Acts 17:18 & 31-32; Acts 23:6-8; Acts 24:15 & 21; Acts 26:8; Romans 1:4; Romans 4:23-25; Romans 6:4-5; Romans 6:9; Romans 7:4; Romans 8:11; Romans 8:34; Romans 10:9; 1 Corinthians 6:14; 1 Corinthians 15:4, 12-23, 35-36, 42-45, 50-57; 2 Corinthians 1:9; 2 Corinthians 4:14; 2 Corinthians 5:15; Galatians 1:1; Ephesians 1:20; Ephesians 2:5-6; Ephesians 5:14; Philippians 3:10-11; Colossians 2:12-13; Colossians 3:1 (Compare with Romans 6:5); 1 Thessalonians 1:9-10; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-16; 2 Timothy 2:8 & 18; Hebrews 6:1-2; Hebrews 11:35; 1 Peter 1:3-5; 1 Peter 1:21; 1 Peter 3:18 & 21; Revelation 20:5-6. ||

The word anástasis is also always referring to the resurrection of the body from the dead, whenever it is found in the New Testament:-

|| Matthew 22:23, 28 & 30-31; Mark 12:18 & 23; Luke 2:34; Luke 14:14; Luke 20:27, 33, 35-36; John 5:29; John 11:24-25; Acts 1:22; Acts 2:31; Acts 4:2; Acts 4:33; Acts 17:18, 32; Acts 23:6, 8; Acts 24:15, 21; Acts 26:23; Romans 1:4; Romans 6:5; 1 Corinthians 15:12-13, 21, 42; Philippians 3:10; II Timothy 2:18; Hebrews 6:2; Hebrews 11:35; I Peter 1:3; I Peter 3:21; Revelation 20:5-6. ||

The words which speak about the quickening of the Spirit (zōopoiéō and syzōopoiéō) never refer to the resurrection of the body from the dead, or being raised. They only refer only to being quickened by the Spirit - including the one time Paul says if the Spirit of God dwells in us, He will also quicken our mortal bodies by His Spirit in us (our bodies need to be quickened in order to be resurrected).

It seems that there is a distinction made consistently throughout the New Testament between being quickened and being "raised", with the one implying birth by the Spirit, and the other implying the resurrection of the body

- which is why I ask if you can you give the verses in the New Testament which talks about the quickening of the Spirit (being born of the Spirit) that use the word "raised" when it's not talking about the resurrection of the body from death?

You need to be more careful. The bodily resurrection is not the same as the resurrection of the physical body. We know that from 1 Corinthians 15:35-49. The resurrection body is not the physical body we now have. I would argue that the anastasis is never referring to the resurrection of the physical body from the dead. That is always "egersis". See Matthew 27:53 speaking of the bodily resurrection of Jesus from the grave. Our resurrection of the dead is speaking of a spiritual, not physical, body. That is anistasis resurrection.

 

[CadyandZoe]

I don't entirely disagree C&Z. But I do disagree about when we receive eternal everlasting life. I don't think that any doctrine could be made more clearly than the fact that we have everlasting or eternal life when we believe in Christ for salvation.

"When I first became a Christian, I thought that 'eternal life' simply meant living forever, like an endless extension of this life. However, I have come to understand that it is much more than that. Eternal life is not just a never-ending existence, but rather a life of greater quality that never ends. Therefore, if we truly comprehend the concept of 'eternal life', it becomes difficult to accept the idea that we have already received it."

The New Testament refers to the idea of "unto the age of ages" to signify a time of eternal happiness, well-being, and human flourishing. This final age will be different from all the ages that have come before it and will offer a quality of life that has never been experienced before. I have given it a name - "aionic" life, based on the Greek word for "age." Essentially, the promise of eternal life is a promise to live during that final age where human beings will flourish and finally find fulfillment.

We have yet to enter that age. According to Paul, we have been granted the indwelling of the Holy Spirit as an earnest of our inheritance, but he also points out that we are living in hope. For who hopes for what they already have?

Christ has already made us eternally alive through His Spirit within us.

I wouldn't put it that way. I wholeheartedly agree with your point about the indwelling of the Spirit, but this gains us entrance into the people of God, who are waiting in the hope of experiencing the Kingdom of God, which will be realized in our future. Jesus told the Pharisees that the Kingdom of God was "within" you, meaning the kingdom of God is "among" you, given that the King is present and bringing the word of Life to his people.

Think about it, if Jesus said that the kingdom is not now, then how do you say that the kingdom of God is within us spiritually? It can't be both.

We possess NOW, from the moment we are born again of Christ's Spirit, eternal everlasting spiritual life or life in our spirit through the Holy Spirit, and that is the part of faithful mankind that shall NEVER die.

What you describe is the Holy Spirit's role today as the one whom the Father sent to convict us of sin, enlighten us, and encourage us. This is what Paul calls our earnest, our guarantee of "aionic" life. We have been promised "aionic life" as an inheritance.

When we die physically, we die spiritually also. According to Paul, at the command of the archangel, those who are dead in Christ will rise out of their graves. Then we who are alive will gather together with them to meet the Lord in the air. I can't make sense of that picture given what you said.

When our body dies as we are all destined to, our spirit is raised (not resurrected) a spiritual body of believers to the heavenly Kingdom of God, where we shall be until time given this earth for man to be born again has ended. And that will be when the seventh trumpet begins to sound. That's why both John and Paul tell us that death of our body is not the death of our spirit. In heaven we shall still be living souls there.

Where does it say that we go to heaven? I don't see that anywhere.

This is not true! Man became a living soul through flesh & bone together with spirit (breath of life).

You seem to dismiss the idea of a living soul. We often consider the soul as just another component of a human being. According to the concept of the mechanical universe, human beings have three essential parts: the body, spirit, and soul. However, the purpose of Genesis 2:7 is not to provide scientific knowledge about the mechanical universe. Rather, it describes the creation of an individual human life - a man who will have an occupation, a family, a history, accomplishments, achievements, a legacy, and progeny. All of these elements define a living soul.

Without a body and a spirit, there can be no family, history, accomplishments, achievements, legacy and progeny. Once I die. My personal history ends there. But if God should bless me with resurrection, my personal history will continue from that point forward. Once God reunites my spirit with a physical, resurrection body, I become a living soul again.

The body of flesh and bone cannot continue to have life without a breath of life (spirit) and so it is a corpse.

Well, one need only return to the crucifixion event to remind ourselves of Jesus' prayer, "Father, into your hands I commend my spirit." If Jesus continued to be alive after that, then he wouldn't have need to place his spirit into the hands of the Father.

Also, if the Spirit of Jesus returned to the Father, and he was self-aware during that time, then why would he tell Mary that he had not yet ascended to the Father? Did his spirit ascend to the Father? Who can know? But according to Jesus' statement to Mary, he didn't.

John NEVER, nor does anyone else speak of the "first resurrection" as anything or anyone other than Jesus Christ.

Perhaps you have never read Revelation 20:4 where John indicates that a particular group of people came to life.

That's why when we are baptized it is written that we are buried with Him into death, and risen with Him through faith that is of the operation of God who raised Him from the dead.

We understand that Paul is speaking about a vicarious death, not an actual death.

Where in this verse does John write that some were raised from physical death?

Remember, Revelation 20:4-5 follows Revelation 20:1-3. This sounds like a trite statement but we should constantly discipline ourselves to remain focused on the context. The chapter opens with an angel, placing Satan in a locked box. John's description of the opening events of the Millennial Period comes after his description of the binding of Satan. The binding of Satan has yet to take place. Therefore the coming back to life also takes place in the future.

Finally, John says that Jesus and others rule for a thousand years. He has been gone for over 2000 years. One can hardly argue, though some insist, that Jesus has been ruling from heaven all this time.

Nowhere in Scripture can we find there will be two bodily resurrections separated by one thousand years.

To understand the Seventh Trumpet we must go all the way back to chapter 11, where John says that after the Seventh Trumpet is sounded, Jesus begins to rule. Loud voices in heaven were saying, "The kingdom of this world has become the kingdom of our Lord and his Christ and he shall rule forever and ever." The Last Trumpet announces the beginning of his kingdom. Revelation 20:4 recapitulates this event when Jesus Christ begins to reign and at THAT time the souls of the martyred dead are resurrected so that they might rule with Christ during the millennial period.

No, sadly many, like you read the passage in this way. It's called reading our doctrine into the passage.

The fact that others believe as I do isn't relevant. What matters is whether I understand what John meant to say.

Luke 17 is of no help for you, Jesus gives no indication for a millennial Kingdom.

Jesus is discussing the events that will occur on the day when the "son of man" is revealed. It's important to note that the phrase "son of man" is crucial to our comprehension of what Jesus said. The term "son of man" is derived from Psalm 8, where David expresses amazement that one of his sons will rule his kingdom eternally.

The phrase "son of man" gains significance in Daniel chapter 7 where one like a son of man receives a kingdom from the ancient of days.

Based on the two references, it can be concluded that the phrase "son of man" signifies the time when Jesus will sit on David's throne and rule over all the nations of the earth. Therefore, when John mentions that Jesus will rule for a thousand years, it implies that Jesus will rule on David's throne for a thousand years. In other words, Jesus' reign as the "son of man" is limited to a thousand-year period.

But his rule over the entire earth continues after the heavens and the earth are remade as John records. At that time we will see a new heavens and a new earth.

In fact He says that His Kingdom if NOT of this world when the Pharisees demanded to know when the Kingdom of God should come.

He says that his kingdom is not "of this world," which means that the source of his power and rule will not come from this world. Instead, the Father will be the source of his power and rule. However, this does not imply that his kingdom won't exist in this world.

We are living in the days of the Son of man.

I am always amazed to see someone claim that we are living in the days of the son of man. All one needs to do is open the door and step outside to see how laughable that is.

 

[CadyandZoe]

I believe that Christ is indeed in us in Spirit and we are in Him, so just as much as He is present with us where we are - in Spirit, we are present with Him where He is, but that's as far as I need to understand it. God is omnipresent and Christ in us, His presence with us and with God the Father, and our presence is in Him. I believe it, and this has been my experience by the grace of God.

I understand what you mean.

It really doesn't matter. God is Spirit and the Spirit of God is omnipresent.

In some sense, I agree with you. But when it comes to interpretation, it matters if I understand what Jesus and the apostles said. I don't know whether I disagree with your perspective. But I don't see how our scripture references are making the point you are making. Again, I'm not disagreeing with you. I just don't see the connections you are making. :)

I believe that when we die we remain in Christ in our spirit. We remain aware. I do not believe we stop existing until we are raised from the dead bodily. I gather from what you've said that you don't believe this, so there's not much point elaborating on the above.

Just to be clear, I would be happy if that were true. And my mind is still open to the possibility that I might be wrong. I think that in the long run, as you say, it matters little because, in the end, we will be with the Lord. :)

My concern right now is my fear that people are using the term "spiritual" in ways that support unbiblical ideas. When I hear the term "spiritual" from certain people, I can't help thinking of concepts like philosophical idealism, which asserts that reality is equivalent to mind and spirit. But maybe that's just my hangup. :) Happy New Year.

 

[rwb]

You've just made it clear yet again that you obviously haven't carefully read what John has written in Revelation 20, because when you carefully read what John has written, you'll find him saying that he saw them zao (alive in their bodies), which if you took the trouble to, you will discover always, when talking about the life of humans, refers to people living | alive in their bodies, throughout the New Testament (without exception when talking about humans, and the only exceptions being when zao is talking about the living God ).

No FOG, that's your doctrine being read into the passage. Where in this verse do we find any mention of these martyred SOULS having a body of flesh? You ASSUME being a soul means having a body, but saying soul is saying LIFE that is found within the spiritual body of believers after they have physically died. Why didn't John merely write that he saw people who were beheaded if he meant a complete soul with body of flesh with the breath of life (spirit)? He writes SOULS because believers do NOT cease having life through spirit when our physical body dies. John was given to understand this truth, and so he writes of seeing LIFE (souls) after physical death of them who were faithful martyrs (beheaded) for the faith.

Revelation 20:4 (KJV) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

When you read carefully what John has written, you'll also find him linking what he said about seeing those who had been beheaded alive in their bodies, with the resurrection, calling it "the first resurrection" and saying that those who have part in the first resurrection (which is Christ's resurrection, since He IS the resurrection and the life), are blessed and holy.

This is more of your doctrine being read into the verse. John writes also of others who shall reign with Christ during their lifetimes symbolized a thousand years. They shall be priests of God and of Christ have part in the "first resurrection" and overcome the second death. These are not the same group of people whom John saw martyred for their faith. These are those who shall be saints of Christ, who shall live during this same period of time symbolized a thousand years. They are NOT among those already martyred.

Revelation 20:6 (KJV) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The verse in this chapter that is the source of so much confusion is vs 5 "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection." The reason for the confusion is the way the translators have linked the "first resurrection" to the rest of the dead. But the first resurrection is not speaking of the dead living again, it's speaking of the "blessed and holy he that hath part in the first resurrection."

John making mention of "the rest of the dead" was to make a distinction between the living martyrs of vs 4, and the blessed and holy of vs 6. John writes of both the full embodiment that shall have everlasting life through Christ during their lifetimes, and he writes of what shall become of the rest of the dead, who are not of the living souls in heaven after they physically died. John tells us their fate is to stand before the judgment throne to give account according to what is written in the books and the book of life.

John was not saying what you assume. That is the first resurrection is the bodily resurrection, which leads you to believe there will be another bodily resurrection separate from the first that shall be one thousand literal years later. Because Scripture is abundantly clear for all who desire to accept it, the bodily resurrection of ALL who are in the graves shall not be before an hour that is coming when the last trumpet sounds. The only way to conclude there are two bodily resurrections is by reading a doctrinal presupposition into the text.

When you read carefully what John has written, you will not insert the words "in heaven" into the text (eisgegesis) or separate the resurrection John spoke of with the zao of those John saw alive after they had been beheaded (more eisegesis).

John speaks only of seeing LIFE (souls) when there should be death. These souls have no body because there shall be no bodily resurrection before an hour coming when the last trumpet sounds. We find in other passages of Scripture that when faithful saints physically die their spirit returns to God who gave it. Of those who died in faith there is still life (soul) in the spirit. We know the life we have through spirit of believers is everlasting because Christ has promised the life we have through Him is eternal, everlasting life. The martyred saints are no longer on the earth after death, so where do you believe they are if not in heaven?

When you omit your doctrinal biases that you read into the passage, then you might be able to understand what you have been taught or learned to believe is unbiblical.