There are 2 tribulation periods, the “first” is to the Jews
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Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
That is not talking about the day of judgment that will occur at the last day at the end of the age which John 12:48, Matthew 13:36-43, Matthew 13:47-50, Matthew 25:31-46 and Revelation 20:11-15 are about.
Notice that Peter said "the time is come". He was talking in present tense there about things that needed to start happening at that time. He was talking in the same sense as Paul talked about here:
1 Corinthians 6:1 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints? 2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? 3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? 4 If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church. 5 I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren?
So, the context of 1 Peter 4:17 is in relation to believers settling "judgments of things pertaining to this life". It's about getting things in order in the church. This has no relation to what Jesus talked about in passages like John 12:48 and Matthew 13:36-43 which have to do with the day of judgment that will occur when Jesus returns on the last day at the end of the age.
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Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Please stop your ignorance. There is no excuse for you to be so ignorant about what Amillennialism is. Don't be thrown off by that description of Amillennialism. It's an unfortunate label because it's not true that we don't believe in the millennium as if we believe the thousand years is fictional. We don't deny that the thousand years represents an actual period of time with a beginning and an ending. It does. We just don't see it as representing a literal thousand years. It's similar to how "a thousand generations" in Deuteronomy 7:9 is not a literal thousand generations and how the reference to God owning "the cattle on a thousand hills" in Psalm 50:10 is not referencing a literal one thousand hills as if God only owns the cattle on a thousand hills but not the cattle on the rest of the hills.
What Amils believe is what scripture explicitly teaches which is that Jesus reigns right now. This is undeniable. He said Himself after His resurrection "All power is given unto me in heaven and on earth" (Matt 28:18). Paul said after Jesus's resurrection God the Father placed Jesus at His right hand "Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named" and "placed all things under His feet, and gave Him to be the head of all things of the church" (Eph 1:19-22). Do you agree that He reigns now? If so, shouldn't Revelation 20 be understood accordingly since that talks about Him reigning? I certainly believe so.
And please think about this, also. In Matthew 13:36-43 Jesus explains the parable He told in Matthew 13:24-30 and He indicated that at the end of the age, which is when He will return, the righteous will "shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father". The kingdom of their Father. That means Jesus will have delivered the kingdom He reigns over now to the Father at the end of the age. That kingdom is eternal. That will be in the new heavens and new earth. As Paul indicated in 1 Corinthians 15:22-28, the time when Jesus delivers the kingdom to the Father will be at "the end" which is when the last enemy, death, will be defeated (1 Cor 15:26).
According to Jesus in Matthew 13:43, that will occur at the end of the age. Do you agree that He will return at the end of the age? If so, then that means the way 1 Cor 15:22-24 should be understood is that "the end" will come when Jesus comes and He will deliver the kingdom that He has been reigning over since His resurrection to the Father at that time rather than begin reigning on the earth for a thousand years at that time as premils believe.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
He clearly has not given this much thought before. He only recently even heard of Amillennnialism. So, what does he have to lose to take a closer look at it instead of just immediately dismissing it the way he is? I'm trying to get him to at least consider it. If he still disagrees after doing so, then so be it. But, he seems to be afraid to take a closer look at it because it would mean he would have to change his current view of Revelation 20. But, there's nothing wrong with learning new things. We should always be learning new things. I don't know about you, but I was Premil once. I did not immediately balk at the suggestion that another view could be true instead. When I studied it for myself I discovered that Amil is true. I wasn't upset that I learned something new. I enjoy learning new things. We need to be open minded to things like this.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Why is this your response to his thoughtful post where he backed up his understanding with scripture instead of just responding to what he actually said? Do you have any thoughts on what he said? I think his reasoning was very sound. Are you afraid to even consider what he said in that post (#156)?
Why are you so afraid to even consider Amillennialsim? The early church father Justin Martyr, who was a Premil like you, acknowledged that many true Christians believed otherwise (did not believe Premil) and he was obviously referring to Amils.
Earburner
Well-Known Member
It's apparent that you are not aware of when God's judgment came. It's found in John 3:18
That same judgment has been given to God's born again saints, who are His ambassadors, in His stead, holding forth to all world the Gift of God's salvation, through faith in Christ.
[18] He that believeth on him is NOT condemned [judged]: but he that believeth not is condemned [judged] ALREADY, BECAUSE he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
2 Cor. 5
[19] To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed [GIVEN] unto us the word of reconciliation [His judgment- John 3:18, Rom. 8:9].
[20] Now then we are ambassadors ["priests"] for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
[21] For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
Do you not see HOW we are NOW reigning with Christ, in regards to God's salvation to all the world? We are not ruling over
anyone.
Edit: the Gospel message of John 3:18 is that "rod of iron".
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How is the Kingdom of God manifested in the world? Christ tells us His Kingdom is not NOW of this world, cannot be visibly seen, and that it is within you, and known and entered when man is born again of the Spirit. The Kingdom of God IN, NOT OF the world NOW is not physical, but a spiritual Kingdom made known as the faithful Church (saints) proclaim the Gospel unto all the nations of the world, and whoever hears and believes according to grace through faith spiritually enter into the Kingdom of God.
So, what does Christ mean when He says His angels will be sent to "gather out of His Kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity"? They will not be found in the spiritual Kingdom of God that is not NOW of this world, because only those who have the Spirit of Christ within are in that Kingdom. The representative of the Kingdom of God in this world now is the universal church. And we read throughout the Bible of tares being found with wheat, and of wolves in sheep's clothing, as well as those who claim to be of Christ, but are in fact of their father, sons/daughters of Satan. This is why Christ tells Peter He shall build His Church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Though His Church in this world is mixed with both true saints and sinners, when Christ comes again everyone and everything that is impure will be gathered out. Only then will the Kingdom of God (Church) as the heavenly city, New Jerusalem shall come down from heaven without spot or blemish for all that is impure shall have been gathered out of the Kingdom of God and burned up.
Matthew 16:18 (KJV) And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
1 Corinthians 1:2 (KJV) Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:
While NOW many are within the visible manifestation of the Kingdom of God, called church on earth, only those called saints, being sanctified in Christ Jesus our Lord shall not be cast out when Christ comes again with His holy angels. This is why & how the Kingdom of God shall be taken from those who never possess the Spirit of Christ within, and given to a holy nation bringing forth the fruits that come from being eternally saved.
Matthew 12:28 (KJV) But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
Matthew 21:43 (KJV) Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
1 Peter 2:9 (KJV) But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
I considered it, and in Light of what Christ has taught by the Holy Spirit I found it to be a false doctrine of men.
These verses alone prove it to be FALSE doctrine.
Revelation 5:9-10
King James Version
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign (((on the earth.)))
Revelation 20:4-6
King James Version
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Those who resist this Truth also resist the Holy Spirit. Case closed.
Don't know where you get information about the Biblical doctrines espoused by Amillennialism??? Because Amil rightly understands what John means when he says "a/the thousand years." We (Amil) absolutely DENY a literal physical reign of Christ on this earth because it is NOT supported by the Word of God.
That screams FALSE DOCTRINE! And Premillennialists have not and cannot biblically prove that when Christ comes again, He will set up a literal, physical Kingdom of God on this earth for one thousand (plus) more years. Let me point out just one very simple reason I know the Kingdom of God with Christ reigning as King will NEVER be found in this world. Christ, without ambiguity tells us that His Kingdom of God is not physical, is not visibly seen, but is within you. Please explain how you reconcile your position with the Bible!
Romans 14:17 (KJV) For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
I agree. I too once embraced the doctrine of Premillennialism. But I only embraced what I HAD BEEN TAUGHT! It wasn't until I began to search the Bible and seek for myself, I wanted answers for inconsistencies and contradictions Premillennialism forced into the Word of God. That's when I discarded the doctrine of Premillennialism and learned "a/the thousand years" of Rev 20 represents an unknown amount of time that began with the first advent of Christ and shall not end until the seventh trumpet begins to sound. When I embraced the true biblical meaning for a thousand years, inconsistencies and contradictions disappeared, and Scripture began to reveal itself as a cohesive whole.
If you really want to show me that I am following false doctrine, why can't you bring forth a single passage or verse from Scripture that tells us Christ will literally, physically reign on this earth for one thousand years when He comes again???
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
It's very clear to me that you haven't spent much time considering it.
I have addressed this already and you said nothing in response. Why do you reject Amil without even considering our explanation for this passage?
Look at this passage:
Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
Just like Revelation 5:9-10, this talks about believers already having been MADE kings and priests. Do you just ignore that? If we are already kings and priests now, as these passages indicate, and we are on the earth now, as is obviously the case, then how can't it be that we are not kings and priests reigning on the earth now? You should not just ignore the fact that we have already been made kings and priests. It says we have. So, why do we need to wait in order to reign with Christ on the earth? He lives within us, we are on the earth, and we are kings and priests. That shows Revelation 5:10 to be present tense. Don't get thrown off by the English wording there. It says "shall reign" but that can be understood in the present tense going forward as well, like we see here:
Romans 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. 15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. 16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. 17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
This is talking about Christ's followers reigning in life because of Jesus Christ. It says "shall reign in life" yet it's talking about an ongoing reality that was already true back then. That's how Revelation 5:9-10 should be understood as well. You are only skimming the surface of passages like this and not studying it in depth. That's not wise.
Your interpretation of this passage isn't truth, so the case is not closed. Your mind is closed. Your interpretation of this passage doesn't line up with all of scripture. In verse 4 John says that he saw souls and said "they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years". The Greek word translated as "lived" there is "zao" and that word does not mean to be resurrected from the dead. It means to be alive and to live. So, John was seeing the souls of the dead in Christ reigning with Christ in heaven. The Greek word "anazao" is used in verse 5 to describe the rest of the dead living again. That word does describe being resurrected from the dead.
To have part in the first resurrection is not to be bodily resurrected. Scripture teaches that Christ's resurrection was the first bodily resurrection unto bodily immortality.
1 Corinthians 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
Acts 26:23 That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.
To have part in the first resurrection means to have part in Christ's resurrection which we all do spiritually.
Colossians 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
So, this is the proper way of understanding having part in the first resurrection in such a way that agrees with the rest of scripture. Notice what it says in Revelation 20:6. The second death has no power over those who have part in the first resurrection. Does the second death have power over us right now? No, it does not. The wages of sin is death (the second death) only for those whose sins are not forgiven. Does the second death have power over the souls of the dead in Christ in heaven right now? No, it does not. So, what does this tell us? That Christians, both dead (souls in heaven) and alive, have had part in the first resurrection which results in the second death having no power over us.
The other thing to consider in relation to Revelation 20 is the question of when does Christ reign? Clearly, He has been reigning since His resurrection as several passages including Matthew 28:16-18 and Ephesians 1:19-22 indicate. He said Himself that all power in heaven and earth was given to Him (Matthew 28:18). Why do you not take things like this into consideration?
One other thing to consider is what Jesus taught here:
John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Jesus taught there is one coming hour at which point ALL of the dead will be resurrected. This is very straightforward. Our doctrine should be based on straightforward scripture like this. We can that use that foundational doctrine to help understand more difficult scriptures found in highly symbolic books like Daniel and Revelation. Why are you willing to interpret Revelation 20 in such a way that directly contradicts what Jesus taught in John 5:28-29? You have the lost/unsaved dead being resurrected 1,000+ years after the saved even though Jesus said they will be resurrected in the same hour. Why do you not take things like this into consideration? Case closed you say? You have only skimmed the surface of this topic and you closed the case before you ever even got below the surface. That is not how you should interpret scripture.
You need to dig deeper. Yes, the Holy Spirit reveals things to us and that is how we learn, but we have to put in the effort to study the scriptures as well. He won't just supernaturally reveal things to us while we sit and do nothing. I can only conclude that you are a premillennialist because that's what you want to believe rather than you concluding that after an exhaustive study of scripture.
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Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Yeah, it's really incredible that he would say "case closed" when he offers so little evidence to back up his premillennial doctrine. It's sad to see.
But, he isn't just saying you are following false doctrine, he's applying John 8:47 to you which means he's saying you are of your father the devil and you are not of God (see John 8:44-47). I am seeing this kind of thing from some people on here who are foolishly making having the correct understanding of end times doctrine a requirement for salvation. It's absolutely unbelievable.
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Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Wow. You are completely out of line here. You need to repent of judging other Christians like that. Have you never read where Jesus said not to judge/condemn others or you will be judged by the same measure you are judging them (Matthew 7:1-2)? To accuse him of being "not of God" means you are saying his father is the devil and that he is not a Christian.
John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. 45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not. 46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me? 47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
What is wrong with you? You are putting yourself in danger of being condemned by condemning him. Why in the world are you going to this extreme in judging another Christian who believe in the death and resurrection of Christ and put his faith in Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior? Why are you adding a requirement to being a Christian that scripture itself does not? Where does scripture say "For God so loved the world, that whosoever has the correct understanding of end times doctrine shall not perish but have eternal life"?
These verses alone prove it to be FALSE doctrine.
Revelation 5:9-10
King James Version
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign (((on the earth.)))
Revelation 20:4-6
King James Version
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Those who resist this Truth also resist the Holy Spirit. Case closed.
I'll take this deflection to mean that you cannot biblically PROVE what you allege! He who alleges MUST prove! Either put up the verses to prove your doctrine or continue to do what you accuse others of doing! That is YOU resisting the truth! Unlike you, I won't go as so far to say YOU also resist the Holy Spirit, because I truly do not know your heart! There are many in these communities who genuinely believe they are espousing biblical truth, rather than convict them all of unbelief, I'll just assume since you cannot prove what you allege, it's because you have been taught these things, following after doctrines of men, therefore unlearned in what sayeth the Word of God!
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
He's a coward who runs away with his tail between his legs whenever his views are challenged instead of taking on the challenge and addressing the points we're making. He just responds by associating us with verses that relate to non-Christians as if our understanding of Revelation 20 is the determining factor in whether we are Christians or not. Sad to see these holier than thou types who badly need to be humbled. I hope he humbles himself before God has to do it.
It just gets really frustrating when one comes with what they believe to be true, but since they have not learned what they believe from the Bible, they are simply mimicking what they have been taught! It's become apparent that he would rather think himself right than learn the truth from Scripture himself. Pride is a tough nut to crack!
These verses alone prove it to be FALSE doctrine.
Revelation 5:9-10
King James Version
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign (((on the earth.)))
Revelation 20:4-6
King James Version
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Those who resist this Truth also resist the Holy Spirit. Case closed.
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