There are 2 tribulation periods, the “first” is to the Jews

[Stewardofthemystery]

In this life mankind shall have tribulation, and for all who remain evil the wrath of God shall come upon them. That doesn't mean the disciples of Christ shall not experience "great tribulation" like none other as they faithfully proclaim the Gospel unto all the nations of the earth.

Right, but the tribulation that the saints suffer is not the same as the wrath of God that the unbelievers and evil doers shall suffer.

John 3:36
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him

 

[rwb]

Right, but the tribulation that the saints suffer is not the same as the wrath of God that the unbelievers and evil doers shall suffer.

John 3:36
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him

I've not said the great tribulation faithful disciples suffer, in some cases unto death, is the same as the wrath of God. My purpose for replying is that FACT! Though the Bible speaks in terms of the Jews coming judgment, and as history proves that time of God's judgment came in 70 AD, the Bible does not limit tribulation, affliction, and anguish to only Jews first, calling it "great tribulation." The great tribulation Christ warns of was spoken specifically to His disciples in the first century, as well as His faithful disciples to come after, warning them faithfully proclaiming the Gospel of the Kingdom of God unto all the nations of the world would bring sorrow, suffering death, and all manner of affliction i.e. "great tribulation" to them.

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

The great tribulation Christ warns of was spoken specifically to His disciples in the first century, as well as His faithful disciples to come after, warning them faithfully proclaiming the Gospel of the Kingdom of God unto all the nations of the world would bring sorrow, suffering death, and all manner of affliction i.e. "great tribulation" to them.

You are confusing the troubles the saints would encounter in this world with God’s wrath upon the wicked, which was first to the unbelieving Jews.

This wrath of God is soon coming on the entire wicked world beginning at the 6th seal.

Psalm 75:8
For in the hand of the Lord there is a cup, and the wine is red; it is full of mixture; and he poureth out of the same: but the dregs thereof, all the wicked of the earth shall wring them out, and drink them.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Paul said the tribulation was to the Jews FIRST for good reason. Both John the Baptist and Jesus warned of the wrath to come.

When Paul wrote that he was referring to general tribulation and not THE Tribulation.. Just like when Jesus said, "in this world, ye shall suffer tribulation..."

Jesus warned to flee the wrath to come…

Matthew 24:16
Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Mark 13:14
But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

Luke 21:21
Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

This would begin the first tribulation which was to the Jews. But Gods wrath will be turned from them in the end…

The AOD occurs in the mid point of teh 7 year tribulation.

One of the purposes of the tribulation is to purge the Jews of rebels, God judge them and cleanse them so that at teh end right before Jesus returns- All of Israel that remains will receive Jesus as Messiah.

This would begin the first tribulation which was to the Jews. But Gods wrath will be turned from them in the end…

There is only one period of time called the TRIBULATION, it is the last 7 years of human history. Teh first 3 1/2 years are the tribulation, and the second 3 1/2 years we call teh great tribulation.

The first 3 1/2 years will see Israel restarting the sacrificial system in the rebuilt temple and prospering until the antichirst reveals his true nature after he is killed and resurrected.

The second 3 1/2 years see Israel fleeing for their lives into teh wilderness/deseret where God has a place prepared for them to care for them for 3 1/2 years.

Revelation 12:13-17

King James Version

​

13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

The AOD occurs in the mid point of teh 7 year tribulation.

One of the purposes of the tribulation is to purge the Jews of rebels, God judge them and cleanse them so that at teh end right before Jesus returns- All of Israel that remains will receive Jesus as Messiah.

There is only one period of time called the TRIBULATION, it is the last 7 years of human history. Teh first 3 1/2 years are the tribulation, and the second 3 1/2 years we call teh great tribulation.

The first 3 1/2 years will see Israel restarting the sacrificial system in the rebuilt temple and prospering until the antichirst reveals his true nature after he is killed and resurrected.

The second 3 1/2 years see Israel fleeing for their lives into teh wilderness/deseret where God has a place prepared for them to care for them for 3 1/2 years.

Revelation 12:13-17​

​

King James Version​

​

​

13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The AOD is fulfilled, and there no such thing as a 7 year tribulation.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

The AOD is fulfilled, and there no such thing as a 7 year tribulation.

We will find out soon won't we.

Please ell us whop was the abomination of desolation that stood in the holy place, who they were?

So are you a preterist who believes the judgments of revelation are past?

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

So are you a preterist who believes the judgments of revelation are past?

No. I believe some prophecy has been fulfilled, like the 70 weeks of Daniel and the AOD. And I believe the first 5 seals are complete, and I believe the next seal to be loosed is the 6th seal.

I believe when the 6th seal is loosed, it shall become painfully obvious for many where we are at in the prophecy timeline.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Many speak of the tribulation to come, and there is in fact a Great Tribulation to come upon the entire world by way of God’s wrath being poured out on the inhabitants of the world.
But many do not understand that there are actually 2 tribulation periods mentioned in scripture.

In Romans 2:9 we read; "Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that does evil, of the Jew “first”, and also of the Gentile."

In this we see the mention of 2 different tribulation periods determined, with the “first”one which pertained to the Jews, and the last one, which is to be upon all the Nations of the entire Gentile world.

This first tribulation to the Jews was announced to begin by Jesus right after the abomination of desolation and destruction of the Temple mount in Jerusalem occurred in 70 ad. (Luke 21:20-24)

This is referred to in scripture as the tribulation of “those days” which was determined to run “many days” (Daniel 11:33) even all the way to "the fullness of the Gentiles", which I believe is marked by the 6th seal events.

Then at the point of the 6th seal being loosed, this would begin the time of trouble such as the world has never seen, (Daniel 12:1); or the wrath of the Lamb/God beginning to be poured out on the Gentile Nations. (Rev. 6:17)

Many confuse these 2 separate events as one single short tribulation event, but a careful study of scripture will show these 2 events are indeed shown as separate in time.
Also I would like to add there is no such thing as a “7 year tribulation,”that is just the doctrines of men, as a 7 year tribulation is not mentioned anywhere in scripture, neither is a "pre-tribulation rapture."

So in a nut shell you have the begin point of the tribulation of “those days” (days of vengeance and wrath upon the Jews) starting at 70 ad. as Jesus said and then running-------------->>>all the way to “after the tribulations of those days” confirmed by the 6th seal signs in scripture (sun, moon, stars) And then the beginning of God’s wrath being poured out on the entire Gentile world, or a time of trouble such as the world has never seen. All these things can be confirmed by a careful study of scripture.

The first tribulation period to the Jews was announced by Jesus and would start right after the fall of Jerusalem in 70 a.d. Luke confirms the start point in Luke 21:20-22“And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter there into.22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.”

Also in John 12:31 Jesus said; "Now is the judgment of this world, now shall the prince of this world be cast out."


This event would take place after Christ was crucified, as seen with the man child Jesus being caught to God in Revelation 12:5. Also at this point in time the red Dragon, or the Devil would persecute the woman (spiritual Israel) after he was cast down unto the earth as seen in Revelation 12:13.
Many try to place all these events future forward concerning the last days, but these events were set into motion long ago with “the judgment”announced by Jesus.

The end of this first tribulation period for the Jews is shown in Matthew 24:29 with the words "after the tribulation of those days." If you notice in Matthew 24:29 there is a pause after verse 28. Then Jesus says; "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken." =(6th seal sign)

Compare to Mark 13:24 were we see the same pause in the verse, and notice the description. Mark 13:24;"But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken."

This sounds just like what the Matthew account has said; but it is the testimony in Luke that shall confirm “the end point” of this first tribulation period for the Jews, referring to “after those days.”
In Luke 21:25 we see the same pause in the verse, and the same signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars. But if you will notice the verse before it we are shown when this first tribulation of “those days”would end, and then the signs in the heavens would begin.

Luke 21:24;"And they (the Jews) shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, “until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled."

This prophecy in Luke 21:24 was shown in Daniel 11:33 “And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.”

Notice “many days” does not suggest a short 3 and a half year, 42 month, or 7 year tribulation period for the Jews. History also confirms this, the Jews have been scattered to the nations and have suffered persecution ever since the fall of Jerusalem in 70 a.d.

When you are given understanding you will come to conclude that the time of 42 months is “symbolic of time”when you put all the pieces together comparing all scriptures on this matter.
This “fullness of time of the Gentiles”is the key to putting this time frame in its proper order of events.

In Revelation 11:2 we see this time period mentioned to John. Revelation 11:2;"But the court that is without the Temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

I believe what throws most people off in this verse is the mention of 42 months, and discerning that time to be a literal 3 and half years. But this time, like most of the symbolisms in book of Revelation should not be taken at face value, but is rather “spiritually discerned.”
To prove this point, in scripture we see the millennium or thousand year reign of Christ is shown as "a season and a time" in Daniel 7:12. So if "a season and a time" is shown as "a thousand years", then “a time, times and half a time” would suggest an even longer period of time; not a short period of time like a short 42 month period. Scriptures also confirm this is cannot be the case as shown in Daniel 12:11-13.

I believe the 6th seal signs confirms “the fullness”of the Gentile age, but also begins the Great tribulation and wrath of the Lamb upon the entire world, or the time of God’s wrath and the day of vengeance as written. Isaiah 63:4 “For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come.”

The start time of the Gentiles ingathering period began at Pentecost (7x7 days) right after Christ was crucified, and with the start of the New Covenant period to all Nations.

This start of the Gentile period is shown in the law as the "new meat offering" after the 7x7 days is complete. This treading down of the holy city (God’s people also shown as the “holy city”) also started long ago in 70 a.d., and has been ongoing ever since, and will continue till the time of the end.

This time of the Gentiles was also symbolized by a 42 month period, but it is only a sign of time. This sign of time is also shown to us in Matthew 1:17 with the 3 separate 14 generations periods, or 42 total generations leading up to the birth of Jesus. ( the law and prophets prophesied during these 42 generations)

This sign of time of 42 months can also be symbolically shown like the 7 priests first circling Jericho for 6 days, or 7x6=42. During these 42 generations leading up to Jesus’ birth the law and prophets prophesied as Jesus said in Matthew 11:13 Just as God’s 2 witnesses (Word and Spirit) were also forecast to prophesy for 42 months in all his saints in Revelation 11:3.


Keep in mind the Lord refers to his saints as the “holy city” and as “Jerusalem” in scripture.

Paul also spoke of this fullness of time for the Gentiles here in Romans 11:25;“For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until “the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.”
Romans 11:26;“And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:”

To be continued…

All rapture verses are normal life, Peacetime. And commerce

Your template has the rapture in a completely different format.

Pretrib rapture is lot ,Noah, the 5 wise virgins. The historic baby Jesus , and 1 thes 4.
Not to mention the 2 escape verses.
Pretrib rapture is easy to defend.
Ask yourself why postribbers omit the pretrib verses.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

No. I believe some prophecy has been fulfilled, like the 70 weeks of Daniel and the AOD. And I believe the first 5 seals are complete, and I believe the next seal to be loosed is the 6th seal.

I believe when the 6th seal is loosed, it shall become painfully obvious for many where we are at in the prophecy timeline.

Would you please show how and when the 70th week was fulfilled and when the AOD stood in the holy place.

also can you identify the first rider

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

Would you please show how and when the 70th week was fulfilled and when the AOD stood in the holy place.

also can you identify the first rider

Jesus was crucified in the middle of the final week of the 70 week prophecy. Jesus confirmed the New Covenant in the final week in His disciples via the Holy Spirit completing the last half of the final week.

The AOD was “set up” or “placed”in 70 ad which began the time clock from when the daily sacrifice was taken away, and with the destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem.

The first rider in the Revelation is the start point of the judgement of this world, as Jesus announced this judgment before He was crucified.

This first judgment was the casting out of Satan from heaven down to the earth. The first rider at the first seal is an image of Satan going forth to conquer.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Jesus was crucified in the middle of the final week of the 70 week prophecy. Jesus confirmed the New Covenant in the final week in His disciples via the Holy Spirit completing the last half of the final week.

The AOD was “set up” or “placed”in 70 ad which began the time clock from when the daily sacrifice was taken away, and with the destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem.

The first rider in the Revelation is the start point of the judgement of this world, as Jesus announced this judgment before He was crucified.

This first judgment was the casting out of Satan from heaven down to the earth. The first rider at the first seal is an image of Satan going forth to conquer.

So the end of the 70th week to you occurred around 33 AD? For the prince confirms a covenant for only one seven! Can you show where in Scripture this confimation of a covenant takes place?

This New covenant, are you speaking of the one spoken in Jer. 31?

So if the AOd occurred in 70AD- who stood in the holy place?

Why was not the rest of the Matt. 24 prophecy fulfilled? &) AD marked the mass execution of Jews and not a time when Jews fled.

The first rider is not judgment but one who goes conquering and to conquer- so who is it and what did this rifer conquer in the nearly 2000 years.

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

So the end of the 70th week to you occurred around 33 AD? For the prince confirms a covenant for only one seven! Can you show where in Scripture this confimation of a covenant takes place?

It was in the final week that Jesus confirmed the New Covenant in His disciples. The New Covenant did not go into force until the death of the Testator.

This New covenant, are you speaking of the one spoken in Jer. 31?

Yes

So if the AOd occurred in 70AD- who stood in the holy place?

The Gentiles

Why was not the rest of the Matt. 24 prophecy fulfilled? &)

It is still in the process of being fulfilled

AD marked the mass execution of Jews and not a time when Jews fled.

Some fled per the instruction of Jesus

The first rider is not judgment but one who goes conquering and to conquer- so who is it and what did this rifer conquer in the nearly 2000 years.

The first 4 horse man are a similitude of the 4 sore judgments. Satan being cast out of heaven down to earth is the first judgment on this world.

John 12:31
Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

It was in the final week that Jesus confirmed the New Covenant in His disciples. The New Covenant did not go into force until the death of the Testator.

So show the 7 years of the covenant and when the sacrifice's ceased from between 33-37 AD. remember in the midst of the week the prince of the people who destroy the sanctuary causes the sacrifices to cease.

Yes

As you say it is the fulfilment of the New Covenant prophesied in Jer. 31, let us post the covenant in its fulness as declared by God through Jeremiah.

Jeremiah 31:31-37

King James Version

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31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
35 Thus saith the Lord, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The Lord of hosts is his name:
36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the Lord, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37 Thus saith the Lord; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the Lord.

Please show from history when God forgave all of Israel their sins.

Please show when Jews no longer needed to teach each other to know the Lord for they all know HIm.

So you believe God no longer remembers Israel and Judahs sin.

this is the new covenant so you say it is fulfilled so you should show from history when these points of the covenant were fulfilled.

The Gentiles

Wrong. The Legions did not enter the holy place or th emost holy place- they just burned them.

It is still in the process of being fulfilled

So the jews are still fleeing and there is such tribulation still going on?

Some fled per the instruction of Jesus

Nice generic answer. Have some history to prove it? Remember they fled in 70AD according to you. When did that great tribulation never seen or will be seen start after these "some" fled?

The first 4 horse man are a similitude of the 4 sore judgments. Satan being cast out of heaven down to earth is the first judgment on this world.

John 12:31
Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

Well a cursory study of this verse shows Satan was not cast out then. When you look at teh Greek you see it is in the future and that future is at the mid point of the tribulation:

12 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

So show the 7 years of the covenant and when the sacrifice's ceased from between 33-37 AD. remember in the midst of the week the prince of the people who destroy the sanctuary causes the sacrifices to cease.

Jesus started His ministry at the beginning of the final 7. In that final 7 He confirmed the everlasting Covenant with and in His disciples. It was in the middle of the final 7 that the need for animal sacrifices ceased because Jesus’ crucifixion ended a need for animal sacrifices to continue.

As you say it is the fulfilment of the New Covenant prophesied in Jer. 31, let us post the covenant in its fulness as declared by God through Jeremiah.

Jeremiah 31:31-37​

​

King James Version​

​

​

31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
35 Thus saith the Lord, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The Lord of hosts is his name:
36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the Lord, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37 Thus saith the Lord; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the Lord.

Please show from history when God forgave all of Israel their sins.

Please show when Jews no longer needed to teach each other to know the Lord for they all know HIm.

So you believe God no longer remembers Israel and Judahs sin.

this is the new covenant so you say it is fulfilled so you should show from history when these points of the covenant were fulfilled.

Jesus is the one who brought into force that New Covenant. But you are right about WHEN this prophecy will take place. This prophecy will take place “after the tribulation of those days” which is after “ the fulness of the Gentiles comes in. This is when, as Paul said, the Deliverer/Redeemer shall remove ungodliness from Jacob. And God shall make a Covenant with the house of Israel.

Wrong. The Legions did not enter the holy place or th emost holy place- they just burned them.

There is a statue (I think it is in Rome,) that shows the Roman armies carrying out the instruments of ministry from the Holy Place. You can look up the image online easy enough.

So the jews are still fleeing and there is such tribulation still going on?

The Jews were scattered to the nations and persecuted from Nation to Nation as God had foretold by the prophets. Remember the Holocaust? Well this time of wrath on the Jews is going to end at the 6th seal, but it will begin the time of Gods wrath on the entire world.

Nice generic answer. Have some history to prove it? Remember they fled in 70AD according to you. When did that great tribulation never seen or will be seen start after these "some" fled?

There are 2 tribulations first to the Jew, then the Great Tribulation begins on the whole world.

Well a cursory study of this verse shows Satan was not cast out then. When you look at teh Greek you see it is in the future and that future is at the mid point of the tribulation:

12 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

The man child being caught up to God there Is Jesus ascending to heaven

6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

This is where the saints are fleeing when the AOD is set up.

7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

And this is where the Prince of this world was cast out of heaven down to earth as Jesus said before He was crucified.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Jesus started His ministry at the beginning of the final 7. In that final 7 He confirmed the everlasting Covenant with and in His disciples. It was in the middle of the final 7 that the need for animal sacrifices ceased because Jesus’ crucifixion ended a need for animal sacrifices to continue.

So you are one who believes in close enough is good enough.

The prophecy specifically says that Prince will make a covenant for a 7! YOu say it is around 7 why should I take you literally and not Gods Word literally.

And the prophecy said that the sacrifices and oblations would cease- not their need. Please defend why you added the words "the need". Don't you think that if that is what God meant He would have said that?

Jesus is the one who brought into force that New Covenant. But you are right about WHEN this prophecy will take place. This prophecy will take place “after the tribulation of those days” which is after “ the fulness of the Gentiles comes in. This is when, as Paul said, the Deliverer/Redeemer shall remove ungodliness from Jacob. And God shall make a Covenant with the house of Israel.

So you believe the actual fulffilment of the covenant is for Israel and is future still.

The Jews were scattered to the nations and persecuted from Nation to Nation as God had foretold by the prophets. Remember the Holocaust? Well this time of wrath on the Jews is going to end at the 6th seal, but it will begin the time of Gods wrath on the entire world.

So how do you justify the fact that the antichrist (empowered by Satan) in Rev. 12 at the mid point of the tribulationgoes and seeks genocide against Jews and Christrians?

You say the AOD took place in 70 AD. but Jesus said this would happen after the AOD sttod in the holy place:

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Please show what this great tribulation took place never to be repeated took place some time after 70AD.

This is where the saints are fleeing when the AOD is set up.

Well JOhn wrote this in the 90's AD long after the temple was destroyed. So he would have written in past tense.

Also the woman is Israel. she brought forthe man child (Jesus)

And this is where the Prince of this world was cast out of heaven down to earth as Jesus said before He was crucified.

And this is the mid point of the trib. Satan still has access to heaven. That is why he is called the accusser of the brethren. He is not accussing us before God via e-mail or telegram.

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

The prophecy specifically says that Prince will make a covenant for a 7! YOu say it is around 7 why should I take you literally and not Gods Word literally.

And the prophecy said that the sacrifices and oblations would cease- not their need. Please defend why you added the words "the need". Don't you think that if that is what God meant He would have said that?

This is what it says…
Daniel 9:27
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

So you believe the actual fulffilment of the covenant is for Israel and is future still.

So how do you justify the fact that the antichrist (empowered by Satan) in Rev. 12 at the mid point of the tribulationgoes and seeks genocide against Jews and Christrians?

You say the AOD took place in 70 AD. but Jesus said this would happen after the AOD sttod in the holy place:

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Please show what this great tribulation took place never to be repeated took place some time after 70AD.

Well JOhn wrote this in the 90's AD long after the temple was destroyed. So he would have written in past tense.

Also the woman is Israel. she brought forthe man child (Jesus)

And this is the mid point of the trib. Satan still has access to heaven. That is why he is called the accusser of the brethren. He is not accussing us before God via e-mail or telegram.

Yes I do believe it is referring to the New Covenant that Jesus brought into effect, but that prophecy to Jacob (Israel) has to with “after those days” which is “after the tribulation of those days” which is marked by the fulness of the Gentiles.

Notice what Paul says about the Covenant…

Romans 11:25-27
King James Version​

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is “my covenant”unto them, when I shall take away their sins.”

Paul is pulling that from the prophecy here…

Isaiah 59:20-21
King James Version​

20 And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the Lord.
21 As for me, this is “my covenant” with them, saith the Lord; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the Lord, from henceforth and for ever.”

So this “covenant” with Jacob is yet to be fulfilled, and happens right after “the tribulation of those days” and “the fulness of the Gentiles”is fulfilled being marked by the 6th seal signs.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

This is what it says…
Daniel 9:27
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

You say this is Jesus but it can't be.

He is not the Prince of the people who will come and destroy the temple. That is a roman ruler.
Jesus would never be responsible for the overspreading of abominations

Sacrifices and oblation did not cease. The efficacy was no longer, but that is different than the actual sacrifices and oblations coming to an end.

This is what it says…
Daniel 9:27
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Yes I do believe it is referring to the New Covenant that Jesus brought into effect, but that prophecy to Jacob (Israel) has to with “after those days” which is “after the tribulation of those days” which is marked by the fulness of the Gentiles.

Notice what Paul says about the Covenant…

Romans 11:25-27​

King James Version​

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is “my covenant”unto them, when I shall take away their sins.”

Paul is pulling that from the prophecy here…

Isaiah 59:20-21​

King James Version​

20 And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the Lord.
21 As for me, this is “my covenant” with them, saith the Lord; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the Lord, from henceforth and for ever.”

So this “covenant” with Jacob is yet to be fulfilled, and happens right after “the tribulation of those days” and “the fulness of the Gentiles”is fulfilled being marked by the 6th seal signs.

Well now I must ask, what do you mean by the fulness of the Gentiles.

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

You say this is Jesus but it can't be.

He is not the Prince of the people who will come and destroy the temple. That is a roman ruler.
Jesus would never be responsible for the overspreading of abominations

Don’t confuse Messiah the Prince with the coming of the Prince of this world.
John 14:30
Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

Sacrifices and oblation did not cease. The efficacy was no longer, but that is different than the actual sacrifices and oblations coming to an end.

Matthew 12:7
But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.

Well now I must ask, what do you mean by the fulness of the Gentiles.

It is when the transgressors are come to fulness. When the full stature of “the man of sin” is revealed.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Don’t confuse Messiah the Prince with the coming of the Prince of this world.
John 14:30
Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

Daniel 9 is not Satan nor Jesus, but the antichrist. For He is the prince of the people who shall come and destroy the sanctuary.

Matthew 12:7
But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.

That doesn't mean that the physical act ceased when Jesus died. It continued for 40 years!

It is when the transgressors are come to fulness. When the full stature of “the man of sin” is revealed.

Which is it? When sinners come to their fulness (which means what?) or when is the Antichrist is revealed.

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

Daniel 9 is not Satan nor Jesus, but the antichrist. For He is the prince of the people who shall come and destroy the sanctuary.

The spirit of antichrist is a lying spirit which came when the Red Dragon was cast out of heaven down to earth. The tail of the Red Dragon is the false prophet spirit aka the spirit of antichrist. Satan is the father of this lying spirit.

That doesn't mean that the physical act ceased when Jesus died. It continued for 40 years!

Prophecy is fulfilled in Gods eyes, not in man’s eyes.

Which is it? When sinners come to their fulness (which means what?) or when is the Antichrist is revealed.

You would have to understand the mystery of iniquity and the falling away from the faith prophecy. I wrote about it. Again the antichrist is not a man, it is a spirit that works in many deceivers.