There are 2 tribulation periods, the “first” is to the Jews

[Stewardofthemystery]

Many speak of the tribulation to come, and there is in fact a Great Tribulation to come upon the entire world by way of God’s wrath being poured out on the inhabitants of the world.
But many do not understand that there are actually 2 tribulation periods mentioned in scripture.

In Romans 2:9 we read; "Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that does evil, of the Jew “first”, and also of the Gentile."

In this we see the mention of 2 different tribulation periods determined, with the “first”one which pertained to the Jews, and the last one, which is to be upon all the Nations of the entire Gentile world.

This first tribulation to the Jews was announced to begin by Jesus right after the abomination of desolation and destruction of the Temple mount in Jerusalem occurred in 70 ad. (Luke 21:20-24)

This is referred to in scripture as the tribulation of “those days” which was determined to run “many days” (Daniel 11:33) even all the way to "the fullness of the Gentiles", which I believe is marked by the 6th seal events.

Then at the point of the 6th seal being loosed, this would begin the time of trouble such as the world has never seen, (Daniel 12:1); or the wrath of the Lamb/God beginning to be poured out on the Gentile Nations. (Rev. 6:17)

Many confuse these 2 separate events as one single short tribulation event, but a careful study of scripture will show these 2 events are indeed shown as separate in time.
Also I would like to add there is no such thing as a “7 year tribulation,”that is just the doctrines of men, as a 7 year tribulation is not mentioned anywhere in scripture, neither is a "pre-tribulation rapture."

So in a nut shell you have the begin point of the tribulation of “those days” (days of vengeance and wrath upon the Jews) starting at 70 ad. as Jesus said and then running-------------->>>all the way to “after the tribulations of those days” confirmed by the 6th seal signs in scripture (sun, moon, stars) And then the beginning of God’s wrath being poured out on the entire Gentile world, or a time of trouble such as the world has never seen. All these things can be confirmed by a careful study of scripture.

The first tribulation period to the Jews was announced by Jesus and would start right after the fall of Jerusalem in 70 a.d. Luke confirms the start point in Luke 21:20-22“And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter there into.22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.”

Also in John 12:31 Jesus said; "Now is the judgment of this world, now shall the prince of this world be cast out."


This event would take place after Christ was crucified, as seen with the man child Jesus being caught to God in Revelation 12:5. Also at this point in time the red Dragon, or the Devil would persecute the woman (spiritual Israel) after he was cast down unto the earth as seen in Revelation 12:13.
Many try to place all these events future forward concerning the last days, but these events were set into motion long ago with “the judgment”announced by Jesus.

The end of this first tribulation period for the Jews is shown in Matthew 24:29 with the words "after the tribulation of those days." If you notice in Matthew 24:29 there is a pause after verse 28. Then Jesus says; "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken." =(6th seal sign)

Compare to Mark 13:24 were we see the same pause in the verse, and notice the description. Mark 13:24;"But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken."

This sounds just like what the Matthew account has said; but it is the testimony in Luke that shall confirm “the end point” of this first tribulation period for the Jews, referring to “after those days.”
In Luke 21:25 we see the same pause in the verse, and the same signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars. But if you will notice the verse before it we are shown when this first tribulation of “those days”would end, and then the signs in the heavens would begin.

Luke 21:24;"And they (the Jews) shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, “until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled."

This prophecy in Luke 21:24 was shown in Daniel 11:33 “And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.”

Notice “many days” does not suggest a short 3 and a half year, 42 month, or 7 year tribulation period for the Jews. History also confirms this, the Jews have been scattered to the nations and have suffered persecution ever since the fall of Jerusalem in 70 a.d.

When you are given understanding you will come to conclude that the time of 42 months is “symbolic of time”when you put all the pieces together comparing all scriptures on this matter.
This “fullness of time of the Gentiles”is the key to putting this time frame in its proper order of events.

In Revelation 11:2 we see this time period mentioned to John. Revelation 11:2;"But the court that is without the Temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

I believe what throws most people off in this verse is the mention of 42 months, and discerning that time to be a literal 3 and half years. But this time, like most of the symbolisms in book of Revelation should not be taken at face value, but is rather “spiritually discerned.”
To prove this point, in scripture we see the millennium or thousand year reign of Christ is shown as "a season and a time" in Daniel 7:12. So if "a season and a time" is shown as "a thousand years", then “a time, times and half a time” would suggest an even longer period of time; not a short period of time like a short 42 month period. Scriptures also confirm this is cannot be the case as shown in Daniel 12:11-13.

I believe the 6th seal signs confirms “the fullness”of the Gentile age, but also begins the Great tribulation and wrath of the Lamb upon the entire world, or the time of God’s wrath and the day of vengeance as written. Isaiah 63:4 “For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come.”

The start time of the Gentiles ingathering period began at Pentecost (7x7 days) right after Christ was crucified, and with the start of the New Covenant period to all Nations.

This start of the Gentile period is shown in the law as the "new meat offering" after the 7x7 days is complete. This treading down of the holy city (God’s people also shown as the “holy city”) also started long ago in 70 a.d., and has been ongoing ever since, and will continue till the time of the end.

This time of the Gentiles was also symbolized by a 42 month period, but it is only a sign of time. This sign of time is also shown to us in Matthew 1:17 with the 3 separate 14 generations periods, or 42 total generations leading up to the birth of Jesus. ( the law and prophets prophesied during these 42 generations)

This sign of time of 42 months can also be symbolically shown like the 7 priests first circling Jericho for 6 days, or 7x6=42. During these 42 generations leading up to Jesus’ birth the law and prophets prophesied as Jesus said in Matthew 11:13 Just as God’s 2 witnesses (Word and Spirit) were also forecast to prophesy for 42 months in all his saints in Revelation 11:3.


Keep in mind the Lord refers to his saints as the “holy city” and as “Jerusalem” in scripture.

Paul also spoke of this fullness of time for the Gentiles here in Romans 11:25;“For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until “the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.”
Romans 11:26;“And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:”

To be continued…

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

This removal of blindness and ungodliness from Jacob "after the tribulation of those days" is confirmed here in Jeremiah 31:33“But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; “After those days,”saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.”
This is the point in time of “deliverance”for God’s saints from the time of trouble that comes after ‘those days” is shown in Daniel 12:1-2 “And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and “at that time thy people shall be delivered,”every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.”
Notice, the first “days of vengeance” Jesus proclaimed upon the Jews, starting with the destruction of the Temple in 70 ad; is not the same time as is shown in Daniel 12:1-2 because the Jews “were not delivered”from that period of persecution, which scripture and history confirms lasted “many days” as is written.

But this time of persecution is symbolically shown as, time, times and a half, or symbolically 42 months, or 1260 days.
But the “time of trouble” shown in Daniel 12:1-2 is speaking of a time of “deliverance”for God’s people and also shows the resurrection of the dead in Christ, which is “after” the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

So this we know by scripture, and also by history, that these 2 separate tribulation events cannot be the same.

Peace and God bless

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

These verses show the passing of the cup of Gods wrath from His people “Jerusalem” to the Nations that had afflicted them.

​

Isaiah 51:17-23

King James Version


17 Awake, awake, stand up, O Jerusalem, which hast drunk at the hand of the Lord the cup of his fury; thou hast drunken the dregs of the cup of trembling, and wrung them out.
18 There is none to guide her among all the sons whom she hath brought forth; neither is there any that taketh her by the hand of all the sons that she hath brought up.
19 These two things are come unto thee; who shall be sorry for thee? desolation, and destruction, and the famine, and the sword: by whom shall I comfort thee?
20 Thy sons have fainted, they lie at the head of all the streets, as a wild bull in a net: they are full of the fury of the Lord, the rebuke of thy God.
21 Therefore hear now this, thou afflicted, and drunken, but not with wine:

22 Thus saith thy Lord the Lord, and thy God that pleadeth the cause of his people, Behold, I have taken out of thine hand the cup of trembling, even the dregs of the cup of my fury; thou shalt no more drink it again:

23 But I will put it into the hand of them that afflict thee; which have said to thy soul, Bow down, that we may go over: and thou hast laid thy body as the ground, and as the street, to them that went over.”

 

[JLB]

Also I would like to add there is no such thing as a “7 year tribulation,”that is just the doctrines of men, as a 7 year tribulation is not mentioned anywhere in scripture, neither is a "pre-tribulation rapture."

 

[Randy Kluth]

Too much to reply to. Let me just say that yes, there is a Tribulation Period associated with the NT Jewish plight, which precedes their restoration. Once Israel's Diaspora is over, and it already seems to be ending, Christ will return to restore the Jewish People to their land, free of any more oppression from outsiders.

And yes, the use of the word "tribulation" cannot be exclusively attached to a single technical application. In general, people go through tribulation, of sorts, any time they oppose God's word or cave to moral laxity. They come under God's judgment, and this can be called "tribulation."

Beyond this, we'd have to get more specific. Thanks.

 

[Truth7t7]

Many speak of the tribulation to come, and there is in fact a Great Tribulation to come upon the entire world by way of God’s wrath being poured out on the inhabitants of the world.
But many do not understand that there are actually 2 tribulation periods mentioned in scripture.

In Romans 2:9 we read; "Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that does evil, of the Jew “first”, and also of the Gentile."

In this we see the mention of 2 different tribulation periods determined, with the “first”one which pertained to the Jews, and the last one, which is to be upon all the Nations of the entire Gentile world.

This first tribulation to the Jews was announced to begin by Jesus right after the abomination of desolation and destruction of the Temple mount in Jerusalem occurred in 70 ad. (Luke 21:20-24)

This is referred to in scripture as the tribulation of “those days” which was determined to run “many days” (Daniel 11:33) even all the way to "the fullness of the Gentiles", which I believe is marked by the 6th seal events.

Then at the point of the 6th seal being loosed, this would begin the time of trouble such as the world has never seen, (Daniel 12:1); or the wrath of the Lamb/God beginning to be poured out on the Gentile Nations. (Rev. 6:17)

Many confuse these 2 separate events as one single short tribulation event, but a careful study of scripture will show these 2 events are indeed shown as separate in time.
Also I would like to add there is no such thing as a “7 year tribulation,”that is just the doctrines of men, as a 7 year tribulation is not mentioned anywhere in scripture, neither is a "pre-tribulation rapture."

So in a nut shell you have the begin point of the tribulation of “those days” (days of vengeance and wrath upon the Jews) starting at 70 ad. as Jesus said and then running-------------->>>all the way to “after the tribulations of those days” confirmed by the 6th seal signs in scripture (sun, moon, stars) And then the beginning of God’s wrath being poured out on the entire Gentile world, or a time of trouble such as the world has never seen. All these things can be confirmed by a careful study of scripture.

The first tribulation period to the Jews was announced by Jesus and would start right after the fall of Jerusalem in 70 a.d. Luke confirms the start point in Luke 21:20-22“And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter there into.22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.”

Also in John 12:31 Jesus said; "Now is the judgment of this world, now shall the prince of this world be cast out."


This event would take place after Christ was crucified, as seen with the man child Jesus being caught to God in Revelation 12:5. Also at this point in time the red Dragon, or the Devil would persecute the woman (spiritual Israel) after he was cast down unto the earth as seen in Revelation 12:13.
Many try to place all these events future forward concerning the last days, but these events were set into motion long ago with “the judgment”announced by Jesus.

The end of this first tribulation period for the Jews is shown in Matthew 24:29 with the words "after the tribulation of those days." If you notice in Matthew 24:29 there is a pause after verse 28. Then Jesus says; "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken." =(6th seal sign)

Compare to Mark 13:24 were we see the same pause in the verse, and notice the description. Mark 13:24;"But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken."

This sounds just like what the Matthew account has said; but it is the testimony in Luke that shall confirm “the end point” of this first tribulation period for the Jews, referring to “after those days.”
In Luke 21:25 we see the same pause in the verse, and the same signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars. But if you will notice the verse before it we are shown when this first tribulation of “those days”would end, and then the signs in the heavens would begin.

Luke 21:24;"And they (the Jews) shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, “until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled."

This prophecy in Luke 21:24 was shown in Daniel 11:33 “And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.”

Notice “many days” does not suggest a short 3 and a half year, 42 month, or 7 year tribulation period for the Jews. History also confirms this, the Jews have been scattered to the nations and have suffered persecution ever since the fall of Jerusalem in 70 a.d.

When you are given understanding you will come to conclude that the time of 42 months is “symbolic of time”when you put all the pieces together comparing all scriptures on this matter.
This “fullness of time of the Gentiles”is the key to putting this time frame in its proper order of events.

In Revelation 11:2 we see this time period mentioned to John. Revelation 11:2;"But the court that is without the Temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

I believe what throws most people off in this verse is the mention of 42 months, and discerning that time to be a literal 3 and half years. But this time, like most of the symbolisms in book of Revelation should not be taken at face value, but is rather “spiritually discerned.”
To prove this point, in scripture we see the millennium or thousand year reign of Christ is shown as "a season and a time" in Daniel 7:12. So if "a season and a time" is shown as "a thousand years", then “a time, times and half a time” would suggest an even longer period of time; not a short period of time like a short 42 month period. Scriptures also confirm this is cannot be the case as shown in Daniel 12:11-13.

I believe the 6th seal signs confirms “the fullness”of the Gentile age, but also begins the Great tribulation and wrath of the Lamb upon the entire world, or the time of God’s wrath and the day of vengeance as written. Isaiah 63:4 “For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come.”

The start time of the Gentiles ingathering period began at Pentecost (7x7 days) right after Christ was crucified, and with the start of the New Covenant period to all Nations.

This start of the Gentile period is shown in the law as the "new meat offering" after the 7x7 days is complete. This treading down of the holy city (God’s people also shown as the “holy city”) also started long ago in 70 a.d., and has been ongoing ever since, and will continue till the time of the end.

This time of the Gentiles was also symbolized by a 42 month period, but it is only a sign of time. This sign of time is also shown to us in Matthew 1:17 with the 3 separate 14 generations periods, or 42 total generations leading up to the birth of Jesus. ( the law and prophets prophesied during these 42 generations)

This sign of time of 42 months can also be symbolically shown like the 7 priests first circling Jericho for 6 days, or 7x6=42. During these 42 generations leading up to Jesus’ birth the law and prophets prophesied as Jesus said in Matthew 11:13 Just as God’s 2 witnesses (Word and Spirit) were also forecast to prophesy for 42 months in all his saints in Revelation 11:3.


Keep in mind the Lord refers to his saints as the “holy city” and as “Jerusalem” in scripture.

Paul also spoke of this fullness of time for the Gentiles here in Romans 11:25;“For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until “the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.”
Romans 11:26;“And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:”

To be continued…

Toooooooooo Longgĝggĝggg

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Many speak of the tribulation to come, and there is in fact a Great Tribulation to come upon the entire world by way of God’s wrath being poured out on the inhabitants of the world.
But many do not understand that there are actually 2 tribulation periods mentioned in scripture.
In Romans 2:9 we read; "Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that does evil, of the Jew “first”, and also of the Gentile."
In this we see the mention of 2 different tribulation periods determined, with the “first”one which pertained to the Jews, and the last one, which is to be upon all the Nations of the entire Gentile world.
This first tribulation to the Jews was announced to begin by Jesus right after the abomination of desolation and destruction of the Temple mount in Jerusalem occurred in 70 ad. (Luke 21:20-24)
This is referred to in scripture as the tribulation of “those days” which was determined to run “many days” (Daniel 11:33) even all the way to "the fullness of the Gentiles", which I believe is marked by the 6th seal events.
Then at the point of the 6th seal being loosed, this would begin the time of trouble such as the world has never seen, (Daniel 12:1); or the wrath of the Lamb/God beginning to be poured out on the Gentile Nations. (Rev. 6:17)
Many confuse these 2 separate events as one single short tribulation event, but a careful study of scripture will show these 2 events are indeed shown as separate in time.

I mostly agree. I'm not sure if I would agree that the tribulation of those days extended from 70 AD until His future coming, but I would allow for that possibility. Luke called that time period you're talking about "the times of the Gentiles" (Luke 21:24).

In the Olivet Discourse Jesus was asked 2 different questions. He had just told the disciples that the temple buildings standing at that time would be destroyed. Naturally, they would have questions about that. I don't doubt their minds at that particular time they may have thought that His coming and the end of the age would coincide with the destruction of the temple buildings, but we know better than that now and I'm sure they knew better after they received the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost as well.

So, the first question in the Olivet Discourse relates to the timing of the destruction of the temple buildings and the second questions relates to His future second coming at the end of the age.

Also I would like to add there is no such thing as a “7 year tribulation,”that is just the doctrines of men, as a 7 year tribulation is not mentioned anywhere in scripture, neither is a "pre-tribulation rapture."

That's for sure. Feel free to join us in the thread titled "The absurdity of the pretrib doctrine" to refute that doctrine if you want.

The first tribulation period to the Jews was announced by Jesus and would start right after the fall of Jerusalem in 70 a.d. Luke confirms the start point in Luke 21:20-22“And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter there into.22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.”
Also in John 12:31 Jesus said; "Now is the judgment of this world, now shall the prince of this world be cast out."
This event would take place after Christ was crucified, as seen with the man child Jesus being caught to God in Revelation 12:5. Also at this point in time the red Dragon, or the Devil would persecute the woman (spiritual Israel) after he was cast down unto the earth as seen in Revelation 12:13.
Many try to place all these events future forward concerning the last days, but these events were set into motion long ago with “the judgment”announced by Jesus.

Agree. The dragon, Satan, was cast out of heaven long ago where he proceeded to persecute the Christian church which he has been doing ever since. He formerly was able to accuse believers before God in heaven day and night, but once Jesus came, died and rose again, then Satan had nothing to accuse us of anymore because our sins are covered and forgiven.

The end of this first tribulation period for the Jews is shown in Matthew 24:29 with the words "after the tribulation of those days." If you notice in Matthew 24:29 there is a pause after verse 28. Then Jesus says; "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken." =(6th seal sign)
In Luke 21:25 we see the same pause in the verse, and the same signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars. But if you will notice the verse before it we are shown when this first tribulation of “those days”would end, and then the signs in the heavens would begin.
Luke 21:24;"And they (the Jews) shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, “until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled."
This prophecy in Luke 21:24 was shown in Daniel 11:33 “And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.”
Notice “many days” does not suggest a short 3 and a half year, 42 month, or 7 year tribulation period for the Jews. History also confirms this, the Jews have been scattered to the nations and have suffered persecution ever since the fall of Jerusalem in 70 a.d.

Agree. Nice job of using scripture to interpret scripture here.

When you are given understanding you will come to conclude that the time of 42 months is “symbolic of time”when you put all the pieces together comparing all scriptures on this matter.
This “fullness of time of the Gentiles”is the key to putting this time frame in its proper order of events.

Agree. Nice to see someone new here who recognizes this.

In Revelation 11:2 we see this time period mentioned to John. Revelation 11:2;"But the court that is without the Temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
I believe what throws most people off in this verse is the mention of 42 months, and discerning that time to be a literal 3 and half years. But this time, like most of the symbolisms in book of Revelation should not be taken at face value, but is rather “spiritually discerned.”

Agree.

To prove this point, in scripture we see the millennium or thousand year reign of Christ is shown as "a season and a time" in Daniel 7:12. So if "a season and a time" is shown as "a thousand years", then “a time, times and half a time” would suggest an even longer period of time; not a short period of time like a short 42 month period. Scriptures also confirm this is cannot be the case as shown in Daniel 12:11-13.

Where are you getting this from that " a season and time" is shown as "a thousand years"? Are you a premillennialist? I'm an amillennialist and I do not see any of the time periods referenced in the book of Revelation as being literal, including the thousand years.

I believe the 6th seal signs confirms “the fullness”of the Gentile age, but also begins the Great tribulation and wrath of the Lamb upon the entire world, or the time of God’s wrath and the day of vengeance as written. Isaiah 63:4 “For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come.”

I agree that the wrath of the Lamb is at hand at that point since it says "the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?" (Rev 6:17). I see that as a reference to the wrath that will occur on the day of the Lord, which I believe is the day Christ returns, as Paul wrote about in 1 Thess 5:2-3 and Peter wrote about in 2 Peter 3:10-12 and as Christ talked about in Luke 21:32-36.

The start time of the Gentiles ingathering period began at Pentecost (7x7 days) right after Christ was crucified, and with the start of the New Covenant period to all Nations.
This time of the Gentiles was also symbolized by a 42 month period, but it is only a sign of time. This sign of time is also shown to us in Matthew 1:17 with the 3 separate 14 generations periods, or 42 total generations leading up to the birth of Jesus. ( the law and prophets prophesied during these 42 generations)

Generally agree. Maybe not completely, but close enough. I definitely agree that the 42 months is symbolic, started already long ago and continues until the end of the age when Jesus returns.

Keep in mind the Lord refers to his saints as the “holy city” and as “Jerusalem” in scripture.

Amen. As seen in scriptures Hebrews 12:22-23, Galatians 4:26 and Revelation 21:2,9.

Note: I had to remove blank lines and some of the text in your post to fit this post under 10,000 characters.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

This removal of blindness and ungodliness from Jacob "after the tribulation of those days" is confirmed here in Jeremiah 31:33“But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; “After those days,”saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.”

Do you not recognize that as referring to the new covenant that was established by the blood of Christ long ago?

Hebrews 8:6 But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises. 7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8 But God found fault with the people and said: “The days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and with the people of Judah. 9 It will not be like the covenant I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they did not remain faithful to my covenant, and I turned away from them, declares the Lord. 10 This is the covenant I will establish with the people of Israel after that time, declares the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. 11 No longer will they teach their neighbor, or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’ because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest. 12 For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more.” 13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

Notice how Jeremiah 31:31-34 is quoted in the above passage and related directly to the new covenant that was "established on better promises" than the obsolete old covenant.

This is the point in time of “deliverance”for God’s saints from the time of trouble that comes after ‘those days” is shown in Daniel 12:1-2 “And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and “at that time thy people shall be delivered,”every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.”
Notice, the first “days of vengeance” Jesus proclaimed upon the Jews, starting with the destruction of the Temple in 70 ad; is not the same time as is shown in Daniel 12:1-2 because the Jews “were not delivered”from that period of persecution, which scripture and history confirms lasted “many days” as is written.

But this time of persecution is symbolically shown as, time, times and a half, or symbolically 42 months, or 1260 days.

Agree.

But the “time of trouble” shown in Daniel 12:1-2 is speaking of a time of “deliverance”for God’s people and also shows the resurrection of the dead in Christ, which is “after” the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

Agree. But, it also shows the resurrection of unbelievers "to shame and everlasting contempt" at that time which lines up with what Jesus taught in John 5:28-29.

“Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

So this we know by scripture, and also by history, that these 2 separate tribulation events cannot be the same.

Agree.

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

I do not see any of the time periods referenced in the book of Revelation as being literal, including the thousand years.


I agree that the wrath of the Lamb is at hand at that point since it says "the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?" (Rev 6:17). I see that as a reference to the wrath that will occur on the day of the Lord, which I believe is the day Christ returns, as Paul wrote about in 1 Thess 5:2-3 and Peter wrote about in 2 Peter 3:10-12 and as Christ talked about in Luke 21:32-36.


Generally agree. Maybe not completely, but close enough. I definitely agree that the 42 months is symbolic, started already long ago and continues until the end of the age when Jesus returns.


Amen. As seen in scriptures Hebrews 12:22-23, Galatians 4:26 and Revelation 21:2,9.

Note: I had to remove blank lines and some of the text in your post to fit this post under 10,000 characters.

The connection between “the season and time”being shown as a “thousand years” is shown here in

Daniel 7:11-12
King James Version
​

11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for “a season and time.”

These verses in Daniel are speaking of this same event here in

Revelation 19:20
And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone”

Then begins the thousand year reign of Christ or a “season and time” when Satan is bound and the remnant of those beast nations have their dominion taken away, but their lives are prolonged during that “season and time.”

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

Do you not recognize that as referring to the new covenant that was established by the blood of Christ long ago?

Hebrews 8:6 But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises. 7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8 But God found fault with the people and said: “The days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and with the people of Judah. 9 It will not be like the covenant I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they did not remain faithful to my covenant, and I turned away from them, declares the Lord. 10 This is the covenant I will establish with the people of Israel after that time, declares the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. 11 No longer will they teach their neighbor, or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’ because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest. 12 For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more.” 13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

Notice how Jeremiah 31:31-34 is quoted in the above passage and related directly to the new covenant that was "established on better promises" than the obsolete old covenant.


Agree.


Agree. But, it also shows the resurrection of unbelievers "to shame and everlasting contempt" at that time which lines up with what Jesus taught in John 5:28-29.

“Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.


Agree.

Yes I do believe it is referring to the New Covenant that Jesus brought into effect, but that prophecy to Jacob (Israel) has to with “after those days” which is “after the tribulation of those days” which is marked by the fulness of the Gentiles.

Notice what Paul says about the Covenant…

Romans 11:25-27
King James Version
​

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is “my covenant”unto them, when I shall take away their sins.”

Paul is pulling that from the prophecy here…

Isaiah 59:20-21
King James Version
​

20 And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the Lord.
21 As for me, this is “my covenant” with them, saith the Lord; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the Lord, from henceforth and for ever.”

So this “covenant” with Jacob is yet to be fulfilled, and happens right after “the tribulation of those days” and “the fulness of the Gentiles”is fulfilled being marked by the 6th seal signs.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The connection between “the season and time”being shown as a “thousand years” is shown here in

Daniel 7:11-12​

King James Version​

​

11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for “a season and time.”

These verses in Daniel are speaking of this same event here in

Revelation 19:20
And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone”

Then begins the thousand year reign of Christ or a “season and time” when Satan is bound and the remnant of those beast nations have their dominion taken away, but their lives are prolonged during that “season and time.”

I think you're missing that Daniel 7:12 is a parenthetical verse and not intended to talk about a time period following what is described in Daniel 7:11. It's even showing in parentheses in other translations like the NIV.

Daniel 7:12 (NIV): (The other beasts had been stripped of their authority, but were allowed to live for a period of time.)

So, Daniel 7:12 is a parenthetical verse that essentially says: by the way, the other historical beast kingdom that came before this beast kingdom (beasts are kingdoms - Daniel 7:23), had their dominion taken away but still existed for a season and time afterwards.

The four beasts referenced in Daniel 7 are historical kingdoms/world empires.

Notice what it says in this verse:

Daniel 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

So, this fourth beast is diverse from all the beasts that came before it historically. It is this fourth beast that succeeded the three beast kingdoms before it that is referenced in Daniel 7:11.

What I'm saying can be confirmed by looking at this verse:

Daniel 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

You clearly have a lot of good spiritual insight, so I ask that you consider what I've said here and also consider the amillennialist view which your view shares a lot in common with other than the timing of the thousand years.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes I do believe it is referring to the New Covenant that Jesus brought into effect, but that prophecy to Jacob (Israel) has to with “after those days” which is “after the tribulation of those days” which is marked by the fulness of the Gentiles.

Notice what Paul says about the Covenant…

Romans 11:25-27​

King James Version​

​

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is “my covenant”unto them, when I shall take away their sins.”

Paul is pulling that from the prophecy here…

Isaiah 59:20-21​

King James Version​

​

20 And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the Lord.
21 As for me, this is “my covenant” with them, saith the Lord; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the Lord, from henceforth and for ever.”

So this “covenant” with Jacob is yet to be fulfilled, and happens right after “the tribulation of those days” and “the fulness of the Gentiles”is fulfilled being marked by the 6th seal signs.

Are you saying you don't believe the covenant referenced in Isaiah 59:20-21 has been established yet? If so, I completely disagree with that. I believe it is referring to the new covenant. What other covenant besides the new covenant relates to people's sins being taken away? Only the new covenant results in people's sins being taken away since only by the blood of Christ are people's sins taken away.

In your original post you referenced "spiritual Israel". Notice my username. As you can tell, I am familiar with the concept of a spiritual Israel. What is your understanding of "spiritual Israel"? Mine is that it consists of the children of God and children of the promise who are Abraham's spiritual seed (Romans 9:6-8) which are those who belong to Christ (Galatians 3:26-29) including all Jew and Gentile believers.

With that said, I see the Israel of which all are and all will be saved (Romans 11:26) as referring to spiritual Israel since it is those who are part of spiritual Israel that are saved under the new covenant which will continue to be the case until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in, which I believe will occur on the day Christ returns.

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

I think you're missing that Daniel 7:12 is a parenthetical verse and not intended to talk about a time period following what is described in Daniel 7:11. It's even showing in parentheses in other translations like the NIV.

Daniel 7:12 (NIV): (The other beasts had been stripped of their authority, but were allowed to live for a period of time.)

So, Daniel 7:12 is a parenthetical verse that essentially says: by the way, the other historical beast kingdom that came before this beast kingdom (beasts are kingdoms - Daniel 7:23), had their dominion taken away but still existed for a season and time afterwards.

The four beasts referenced in Daniel 7 are historical kingdoms/world empires.

Notice what it says in this verse:

Daniel 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

So, this fourth beast is diverse from all the beasts that came before it historically. It is this fourth beast that succeeded the three beast kingdoms before it that is referenced in Daniel 7:11.

What I'm saying can be confirmed by looking at this verse:

Daniel 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

You clearly have a lot of good spiritual insight, so I ask that you consider what I've said here and also consider the amillennialist view which your view shares a lot in common with other than the timing of the thousand years.

If you compare Daniel 7:11-12 to Revelation 19:20 you can see they are speaking of the same end time event. The point I was making in my OP was that the thousand years in Rev. 20 is symbolized as “a season and time.”

And I do believe the thousand year reign of Christ is literal, and is yet to come. It is “like” the big Sabbath “day of rest”for the people of God. Just as a thousand years is “like” a day to the Lord. There remains a day of rest for the people of God….

Hebrews 4:1-9
King James Version
​

4 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

Are you saying you don't believe the covenant referenced in Isaiah 59:20-21 has been established yet? If so, I completely disagree with that. I believe it is referring to the new covenant. What other covenant besides the new covenant relates to people's sins being taken away? Only the new covenant results in people's sins being taken away since only by the blood of Christ are people's sins taken away.

In your original post you referenced "spiritual Israel". Notice my username. As you can tell, I am familiar with the concept of a spiritual Israel. What is your understanding of "spiritual Israel"? Mine is that it consists of the children of God and children of the promise who are Abraham's spiritual seed (Romans 9:6-8) which are those who belong to Christ (Galatians 3:26-29) including all Jew and Gentile believers.

With that said, I see the Israel of which all are and all will be saved (Romans 11:26) as referring to spiritual Israel since it is those who are part of spiritual Israel that are saved under the new covenant which will continue to be the case until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in, which I believe will occur on the day Christ returns.

Jesus did bring into effect the New Covenant, BUT that prophecy in Isaiah 59:20-21 is yet to be fulfilled. Paul tells us WHEN that prophecy will be fulfilled in

Romans 11:25-27. It is to be fulfilled “after the fulness of the Gentiles” comes in.​

There is a lot more prophecy that confirms “the timing”of this event, which I may drop down in future threads. I’m using a phone to post and it is hard to cover everything in short posts. Peace

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

If you compare Daniel 7:11-12 to Revelation 19:20 you can see they are speaking of the same end time event.

Daniel 7:11, sure. Daniel 7:12, no. What are your thoughts on what I said about verse 12 being a parenthetical verse about the others beasts being previous historical kingdoms (world empires)?

Daniel 7:7 “After that, in my vision at night I looked, and there before me was a fourth beast—terrifying and frightening and very powerful. It had large iron teeth; it crushed and devoured its victims and trampled underfoot whatever was left. It was different from all the former beasts, and it had ten horns.

Daniel 7:23 He gave me this explanation: ‘The fourth beast is a fourth kingdom that will appear on earth. It will be different from all the other kingdoms and will devour the whole earth, trampling it down and crushing it.

The point I was making in my OP was that the thousand years in Rev. 20 is symbolized as “a season and time.”

Yes, I know that, but I don't believe that Daniel 7:12 has anything to do with the thousand years, which I'm trying to show. Instead, it is a parenthetical reference to the previous 3 historical beasts (kingdoms) that come before the fourth beast (kingdom). You are thinking that the other 3 beasts continue on after the fourth beast is cast into the fire, but that is not the case.

And I do believe the thousand year reign of Christ is literal, and is yet to come.

I don't believe that fits with the rest of scripture which teaches that Christ reigns now (Matt 28:16-18, Eph 1:19-23, Col 1:12-13, Rev 1:5-6) and that all unbelievers will be killed when He returns (Matt 24:35-39, Luke 17:26-30, 1 Thess 5:2-3, 2 Thess 1:7-10, 2 Peter 3:10-12, Rev 19:17-18). Scripture also teaches that all people will be resurrected at generally the same time (John 5:28-29) and judged at the same time (Matthew 25:31-46, John 6:40 + John 12:48) when Christ returns.

It is “like” the big Sabbath “day of rest”for the people of God. Just as a thousand years is “like” a day to the Lord. There remains a day of rest for the people of God….

Hebrews 4:1-9​

King James Version​

​

4 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.

The remaining rest is not temporary like the thousand years, but rather eternal. What kind of rest would it be if it eventually results in what is described in Revelation 20:7-9? No, the rest we are waiting for is eternal.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

When Jesus returns, it will result in the burning and renewal of the heavens and the earth, resulting in what Peter said we are looking for in accordance with His second coming, which is "new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness". So, let's not look for an earthly kingdom that provides only temporary rest which leads to a number as "the sand of the sea" rebelling against Christ. Let's instead look for eternal rest in the new heavens and new earth.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Jesus did bring into effect the New Covenant, BUT that prophecy in Isaiah 59:20-21 is yet to be fulfilled. Paul tells us WHEN that prophecy will be fulfilled in

Romans 11:25-27. It is to be fulfilled “after the fulness of the Gentiles” comes in.​

There is a lot more prophecy that confirms “the timing”of this event, which I may drop down in future threads. I’m using a phone to post and it is hard to cover everything in short posts. Peace

No, that is not what Paul said. Please examine the passage more carefully.

Romans 11:25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written: 'The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. 27 And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins.

Please think about this. How can there be any covenant besides the new covenant that could take away sins? Christ's blood established the new covenant and you agree with that. What other covenant can take away sins? Surely, no other covenant can! So, Romans 11:26-27 must be referring to the new covenant. It has to be. To think that any other covenant can take away sins would be an insult to what Christ accomplished on the cross.

So, what Paul was saying in verses 26 and 27 was not that all Israel would be saved by the covenant prophesied in Isaiah 59:20-21 at some point in the future. No, that can't be because it's the new covenant that was established by Christ already long ago. Instead, what Paul was saying in Romans 11:26-27 was a summary of everything he had been saying going back to Romans 9:1. I will explain that. Remember, the original manuscripts had no chapters and verses, so Paul gave one narrative from about Romans 9:1 to Romans 11:32.

Here is what Paul had said in Romans 9:

Romans 9:6 It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” 8 In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring.

I have color codes here the difference between two Israels that Paul referenced in this passage. One is national Israel and one is spiritual Israel with national Israel being in blue and spiritual Israel in red. National Israel consists of Abraham's natural, physical descendants while Spiritual Israel consists of Abraham's spiritual descendants which are "God children" who are "the children of the promise". And their offspring are reckoned through Isaac.

In other scripture Paul explains who are "God's children" which are "the children of the promise" who are reckoned through Isaac and the spiritual children of Abraham.

Galatians 3:26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Galatians 4:28 Now you, brothers and sisters, like Isaac, are children of promise.

Okay, now that we have established which Israel it is of which all are saved (Spiritual Israel rather than national Israel), let's go back to Romans 11.

Romans 11:25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written: 'The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. 27 And this is[ my covenant with them when I take away their sins.

As I was saying earlier, in verses 26 and 27 here Paul was summarizing everything he had been saying going back to Romans 9 by saying how all Spiritual Israel becomes saved and it is by way of The Deliverer coming from Zion and turning godlessness away from Jacob by way of fulfilling a covenant by which He would take away their sins. The way in which Spiritual Israel is saved is the same way that Paul described people being saved earlier in Romans 11.

Romans 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. 12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? 13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: 14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

So, God put in place a process by which salvation would occur for the Israelites and for Gentiles. He had an elect remnant of Israelite believers, but "the rest were blinded" (Romans 11:5-7). But, Paul clarified that though some were blinded, they had only temporarily stumbled and did not fall and he said "God forbid" that they had completely fallen. Paul proved that they had only stumbled and did not fall by the fact that he hoped to help save some of those who were blinded in his day and the way he would do it is by provoking them to jealousy by leading Gentiles to salvation. This process has continued ever since and will continue until the fulness of the Gentiles has come in. At that point, all Spiritual Israel, consisting of believing Jews and Gentiles, will be saved as Jesus will come at that point and usher in eternity.

So, going back to Romans 11:26-27, has the Deliverer not yet come to turn godlessness away from Jacob by way of a covenant by which sins are taken away? No, He already came long ago to establish the new covenant that takes away sins and turns godlessness away from Jacob.

Acts 3:24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days. 25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed. 26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

Can you see here that Peter said all the prophets from Samuel, which would include Isaiah, foretold of the days that God would raise up his Son Jesus to bless the people of Israel and turn every one of them away from their iniquities. Now, does this mean every one of them would turn from their sin? No. It means that Jesus would call all of them to repent and offer them the opportunity to be saved from their sins, which He died by dying on the cross and establishing the new covenant by which their sins could be taken away.

I realize I have shared a lot with you here and it's a lot to take in, so I ask that you please consider it prayerfully first before responding.

 

[covenantee]

No, that is not what Paul said. Please examine the passage more carefully.

Romans 11:25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written: 'The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. 27 And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins.

Please think about this. How can there be any covenant besides the new covenant that could take away sins? Christ's blood established the new covenant and you agree with that. What other covenant can take away sins? Surely, no other covenant can! So, Romans 11:26-27 must be referring to the new covenant. It has to be. To think that any other covenant can take away sins would be an insult to what Christ accomplished on the cross.

So, what Paul was saying in verses 26 and 27 was not that all Israel would be saved by the covenant prophesied in Isaiah 59:20-21 at some point in the future. No, that can't be because it's the new covenant that was established by Christ already long ago. Instead, what Paul was saying in Romans 11:26-27 was a summary of everything he had been saying going back to Romans 9:1. I will explain that. Remember, the original manuscripts had no chapters and verses, so Paul gave one narrative from about Romans 9:1 to Romans 11:32.

Here is what Paul had said in Romans 9:

Romans 9:6 It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” 8 In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring.

I have color codes here the difference between two Israels that Paul referenced in this passage. One is national Israel and one is spiritual Israel with national Israel being in blue and spiritual Israel in red. National Israel consists of Abraham's natural, physical descendants while Spiritual Israel consists of Abraham's spiritual descendants which are "God children" who are "the children of the promise". And their offspring are reckoned through Isaac.

In other scripture Paul explains who are "God's children" which are "the children of the promise" who are reckoned through Isaac and the spiritual children of Abraham.

Galatians 3:26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Galatians 4:28 Now you, brothers and sisters, like Isaac, are children of promise.

Okay, now that we have established which Israel it is of which all are saved (Spiritual Israel rather than national Israel), let's go back to Romans 11.

Romans 11:25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written: 'The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. 27 And this is[ my covenant with them when I take away their sins.

As I was saying earlier, in verses 26 and 27 here Paul was summarizing everything he had been saying going back to Romans 9 by saying how all Spiritual Israel becomes saved and it is by way of The Deliverer coming from Zion and turning godlessness away from Jacob by way of fulfilling a covenant by which He would take away their sins. The way in which Spiritual Israel is saved is the same way that Paul described people being saved earlier in Romans 11.

Romans 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. 12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? 13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: 14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

So, God put in place a process by which salvation would occur for the Israelites and for Gentiles. He had an elect remnant of Israelite believers, but "the rest were blinded" (Romans 11:5-7). But, Paul clarified that though some were blinded, they had only temporarily stumbled and did not fall and he said "God forbid" that they had completely fallen. Paul proved that they had only stumbled and did not fall by the fact that he hoped to help save some of those who were blinded in his day and the way he would do it is by provoking them to jealousy by leading Gentiles to salvation. This process has continued ever since and will continue until the fulness of the Gentiles has come in. At that point, all Spiritual Israel, consisting of believing Jews and Gentiles, will be saved as Jesus will come at that point and usher in eternity.

So, going back to Romans 11:26-27, has the Deliverer not yet come to turn godlessness away from Jacob by way of a covenant by which sins are taken away? No, He already came long ago to establish the new covenant that takes away sins and turns godlessness away from Jacob.

Acts 3:24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days. 25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed. 26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

Can you see here that Peter said all the prophets from Samuel, which would include Isaiah, foretold of the days that God would raise up his Son Jesus to bless the people of Israel and turn every one of them away from their iniquities. Now, does this mean every one of them would turn from their sin? No. It means that Jesus would call all of them to repent and offer them the opportunity to be saved from their sins, which He died by dying on the cross and establishing the new covenant by which their sins could be taken away.

I realize I have shared a lot with you here and it's a lot to take in, so I ask that you please consider it prayerfully first before responding.

Amen bro.

 

[Douggg]

This first tribulation to the Jews was announced to begin by Jesus right after the abomination of desolation and destruction of the Temple mount in Jerusalem occurred in 70 ad. (Luke 21:20-24)

This is referred to in scripture as the tribulation of “those days” which was determined to run “many days” (Daniel 11:33) even all the way to "the fullness of the Gentiles", which I believe is marked by the 6th seal events.

I agree that Luke 21:20-24 is the 70 AD event. But the abomination of desolation of Matthew 24:15 did not occur then and is still future.

The tribulation of those days in Matthew 24:29 is also future. It is referring to the great tribulation up to the point when the sign of the Son of Man appears in heaven (Matthew 24:30a) which will take place at the sixth seal event.

Daniel 12:11 - the abomination of desolation is setup and from then 1290 days to the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. (Matthew 24:30a)
Daniel 12:12 - the abomination of desolation is setup and from then 1335 days until Jesus descending to earth (Matthew 24:30b)

The 45 days in between the two, the kings of the earth will assemble their armies at Armageddon to prepare to make war on Jesus, who they see in heaven, sickle in hand.


(tribulation of those days) Sign of the Son of Man in heaven appears - then for 45 days the kings of the earth make ready - (great tribulation ends) when Jesus descends to earth, deals with the beast king and false prophet first. Then destroys the armies. Then Satan cast into the bottomless pit prison for a thousand years.

 

[Douggg]

btw, the abomination of desolation will be a statue image of the beast king placed on the temple mount.

When Satan gets cast down to earth shortly thereafter, Satan will indwell the statue image making it appear to come alive and speak.

People who will worship the come-to-life statue image will thus be worshiping Satan, unknowingly.

That statue image will go up in flames and turned to ashes at Jesus's return, exposing Satan for all to see that day. That end to Satan as a terror is in Ezekiel 28:16-19, as well as, his being cast down to earth and exposed. As well as being brought to ashes (the statue image, going up in flames).



16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.


It is all going to happen on the temple the day of Jesus's Return.

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

Daniel 7:11, sure. Daniel 7:12, no. What are your thoughts on what I said about verse 12 being a parenthetical verse about the others beasts being previous historical kingdoms (world empires)?

Daniel 7:7 “After that, in my vision at night I looked, and there before me was a fourth beast—terrifying and frightening and very powerful. It had large iron teeth; it crushed and devoured its victims and trampled underfoot whatever was left. It was different from all the former beasts, and it had ten horns.

Daniel 7:23 He gave me this explanation: ‘The fourth beast is a fourth kingdom that will appear on earth. It will be different from all the other kingdoms and will devour the whole earth, trampling it down and crushing it.


Yes, I know that, but I don't believe that Daniel 7:12 has anything to do with the thousand years, which I'm trying to show. Instead, it is a parenthetical reference to the previous 3 historical beasts (kingdoms) that come before the fourth beast (kingdom). You are thinking that the other 3 beasts continue on after the fourth beast is cast into the fire, but that is not the case.


I don't believe that fits with the rest of scripture which teaches that Christ reigns now (Matt 28:16-18, Eph 1:19-23, Col 1:12-13, Rev 1:5-6) and that all unbelievers will be killed when He returns (Matt 24:35-39, Luke 17:26-30, 1 Thess 5:2-3, 2 Thess 1:7-10, 2 Peter 3:10-12, Rev 19:17-18). Scripture also teaches that all people will be resurrected at generally the same time (John 5:28-29) and judged at the same time (Matthew 25:31-46, John 6:40 + John 12:48) when Christ returns.


The remaining rest is not temporary like the thousand years, but rather eternal. What kind of rest would it be if it eventually results in what is described in Revelation 20:7-9? No, the rest we are waiting for is eternal.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

When Jesus returns, it will result in the burning and renewal of the heavens and the earth, resulting in what Peter said we are looking for in accordance with His second coming, which is "new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness". So, let's not look for an earthly kingdom that provides only temporary rest which leads to a number as "the sand of the sea" rebelling against Christ. Let's instead look for eternal rest in the new heavens and new earth.

The 4th and final beast is made up of all the remnants (body parts)of the previous 3 beasts kingdoms.

Revelation 13:2
And the beast which I saw was like unto a “leopard,” and his feet were as the feet of a “bear,”and his mouth as the mouth of “a lion:”and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

Even though those kingdoms of Babylon the Lion, Persia the Bear, and Greece the Leopard do not remain in the physical sense, in the “spiritual sense”a lot of their beliefs, traditions, ideologies, and styles of governance remain still today.

That is why the 4th beast would be “diverse”from the first 3. When the Lord cleanses the earth with fire a “remnant” of the nations shall be left to repopulate the earth during the thousand year reign of Christ on earth with his saints. That remnant that is left of the nations is what comes against the saints after the thousands years is complete. This is shown as the battle of Gog and Magog.

I wrote a thread on the “feet” of the Bear kingdom, which I believe is important to understand concerning end time prophecy.

Peace