There are 2 tribulation periods, the “first” is to the Jews

[Davy]

If NO MAN knows the things of God, then why would anyone put their trust in MAN?

1 Corinthians 2:11
For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

So what now, you DENY the working by GOD and His Christ via The Holy Spirit??

So you're not aware of The Holy Spirit as Teacher for those in Christ?

John 14:26
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, Whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
KJV

John 6:45
45 It is written in the prophets, 'And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto Me.'
KJV

John 16:13
13 Howbeit when He, the Spirit of truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth: for He shall not speak of Himself; but whatsoever He shall hear, that shall He speak: and He will shew you things to come.
KJV

1 Cor 2:10
10 But God hath revealed them unto us by His Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
KJV

Eph 1:17-20
17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him:
18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of His calling, and what the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints,
19 And what is the exceeding greatness of His power to usward who believe, according to the working of His mighty power,
20 Which He wrought in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead, and set Him at His own right hand in the heavenly places,
KJV

1 John 2:20
20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.
KJV

1 John 2:27
27 But the anointing which ye have received of Him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in Him.
KJV

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

All the gifts of the Spirit are given to edify the body of Christ, but that does not mean we are to call one another Rabbi, or Teacher.

Take it easy. I am not saying anyone needs to be called "Rabbi" or "Teacher".

Matthew 23:8
But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren

I'm well aware of this verse. Never did I say anyone needed to be called "Rabbi" or "Teacher". I'm simply showing that some are called to be teachers in the church and have been empowered by the Holy Spirit to do so, which scripture clearly teaches. One can use the gifts of the word of wisdom and word of knowledge to teach others. But, of course, the Spirit of Christ is the one doing the teaching through those teachers.

 

[Davy]

There is only ONE "great tribulation" event that Jesus prophesied for the END of this world just prior to His 2nd coming. And here is why...

Matt 24:21
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
KJV

Those on men's false doctrines of Preterism forget that it's those parts in 'red' that DEFINE just what "great tribulation" in that Scripture means, a time on earth such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, nor ever shall be.

Break that down now:
"great tribulation, such as want not since the beginning of the world to this time" = since the creation up to the time of Jesus' 1st coming.

"no, nor ever shall be" = will never happen again. This means when it comes, there will be no more tribulation events after it, which places that "great tribulation" at the very END of this world just prior to Christ's future return.

This also is what the Daniel 12:1-2 Scripture shows about that future "great tribulation" event. Christ's deliverance of His Church is to happen at the end of it.

Dan 12:1-2
12 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
KJV


Thus anytime you hear some claim the "great tribulation" was past history, then you well know they are deceived and speaking from the devil's agenda.

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

So what now, you DENY the working by GOD and His Christ via The Holy Spirit??

So you're not aware of The Holy Spirit as Teacher for those in Christ?

John 14:26
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, Whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
KJV

John 6:45
45 It is written in the prophets, 'And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto Me.'
KJV

John 16:13
13 Howbeit when He, the Spirit of truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth: for He shall not speak of Himself; but whatsoever He shall hear, that shall He speak: and He will shew you things to come.
KJV

1 Cor 2:10
10 But God hath revealed them unto us by His Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
KJV

Eph 1:17-20
17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him:
18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of His calling, and what the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints,
19 And what is the exceeding greatness of His power to usward who believe, according to the working of His mighty power,
20 Which He wrought in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead, and set Him at His own right hand in the heavenly places,
KJV

1 John 2:20
20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.
KJV

1 John 2:27
27 But the anointing which ye have received of Him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in Him.
KJV

Nope, I’ve been taught by Christ via the Holy Spirit. And by God’s Word and Spirit I also know who NOT to trust.

Jeremiah 17:5
Thus saith the Lord; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the Lord.

 

[Timtofly]

Had what really happened? I referenced this passage:

Acts 3:24 “Indeed, beginning with Samuel, all the prophets who have spoken have foretold these days. 25 And you are heirs of the prophets and of the covenant God made with your fathers. He said to Abraham, ‘Through your offspring all peoples on earth will be blessed.’ 26 When God raised up his servant, he sent him first to you to bless you by turning each of you from your wicked ways.”

Are you suggesting that God did not raise up Jesus and did not send Him first to bless the people of Israel and turn them from their wicked ways by dying for their sins and rising again from the dead? If not, then what is your problem with what I said, which is the same as what this passage says?


You always misrepresent my view. I never said otherwise. You continue to have poor reading comprehension.


I did not say that the fullness of the Gentiles ended at the cross. What is the name of the straw man you're arguing with here? I believe the fullness of the Gentiles will come in when Jesus returns in the future.


It started then and I never said otherwise. Your poor reading comprehension skills have caused you to waste time arguing with a straw man yet again.


What I'm saying is that the blindness was removed from "some of them" even in Paul's day already because that is exactly what Paul indicated.

Romans 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. 12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? 13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: 14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

Can you see here that Paul hoped to lead some of the Israelites who were blinded to salvation? And I'm sure he did. So, their blindness was removed back then. They were not blinded permanently, they were blinded temporarily while the gospel went to the Gentiles and then God's plan was for the Gentile believers to provoke the blinded Israelites to jealousy so that they would want to be saved the way the Gentiles were and the way Paul, the apostle of the Gentiles, was, which was obviously by way of God's grace through faith in Christ.

Do you try to claim that no Israelites who have been blinded since Paul's day have ever been saved and had their blindness removed? They were blinded in part then and some of them had their blindness removed when they were provoked to jealousy by the Gentiles and they accepted the gospel. That process has continued since then and will continue until the future when "the fullness of the Gentiles comes in".


I did not "say the fulness of the Gentiles ends when Jesus is born and comes as the Messiah". Not at all. Again, what is the name of the straw man you are talking to?

I can't take any more of this because you misunderstand everything you read. I don't want to take any more time correcting your misunderstandings of my view.

You said Jesus the "Deliverer" had already happened, which is when the blindness is removed.

Blindness HAPPENED in part at the Cross. The fulness of the Gentiles started at the Cross.

Israel will be removed from partial blindness at the Second Coming. That is when the DELIVERER will remove the sin from the earth as well as the blindness and sin from Israel. That is the Covenant promised in several OT passages.

If you think sin and death have been eradicated since the Cross, for all on earth, there is no misrepresentation of your view, that can fix your erroneous interpretation of Romans 11.

You used those OT passages to claim that the Deliverer in Romans 11:26 was the point of the Cross, when Paul was talking about the Second Coming.

If you say they are blinded temporarily until the Gospel goes out, then that would be temporarily all the way to the Second Coming. The Gospel has not stopped going out, and will not stop until after the Second Coming.

The point is not that blindness is preventing them from being redeemed. The point is when did that blindness start and when will that blindness end. The blindness was not to prevent the Gospel nor redemption, but make it harder for those who call themselves Israel.

Did the blindness that happened in part start at the Cross or end at the Cross?

Can you see here that Paul hoped to lead some of the Israelites who were blinded to salvation?

That should still be true to this very day, that Israel comes to salvation

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You said Jesus the "Deliverer" had already happened, which is when the blindness is removed.

Pay attention to what I'm saying. Do you even try to understand what people are saying to you? What I said is that Paul indicated that the blindness of SOME of them was removed in his day. Okay? Is that not what he indicated in Romans 11:11-14? It clearly is. Are you with me so far or has your mind already drifted off into la la land?

What I am saying is that the blindness was temporary. As evidenced by the fact that Paul said he hoped to help "save some of them" who were blinded. Understand? And he said they were blinded so that salvation could come to the Gentiles who, in turn, would provoke those blinded Israelites to jealousy so they too would want to be saved like the Gentiles were. And many Israelites became saved that way. And I believe that process has continued ever since and will continue "until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in". Understand? I think I'm being clear here, but you have to actually pay attention if you're going to understand what I'm telling you. You misrepresent what I say repeatedly and I'd love to know why.

Blindness HAPPENED in part at the Cross. The fulness of the Gentiles started at the Cross.

What does that mean? When it talks about "blindness in part" it's talking about how there was a remnant of saved Israelites and "the rest were blinded". So, Israel was blinded in part and not completely since there was a remnant of believers.

Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. 7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

See that? Not all of Israel was blinded, but only those who were not part of the elect remnant. So, there was blindness in part in Israel. Understand?

Israel will be removed from partial blindness at the Second Coming. That is when the DELIVERER will remove the sin from the earth as well as the blindness and sin from Israel. That is the Covenant promised in several OT passages.

Show me that in context in Romans 11. I don't see that being described in Romans 11 at all. You are not even understanding what "blindness in part" means and you are not understanding that some who were blinded in Paul's day had their blindness removed and they were saved. You are making very little effort to see the context of Romans 11.

If you think sin and death have been eradicated since the Cross, for all on earth, there is no misrepresentation of your view, that can fix your erroneous interpretation of Romans 11.

LOL!!!!! Where in the world did I say anything like that? LOL! Nowhere. Not even close. Are you just here to make completely insane comments? Is this just all a big game to you? You say the most ridiculous, nonsensical things I've ever seen. You rely only on your own mind only for understanding, but you need to ask God for wisdom (James 1:5-7).

 

[Davy]

Nope, I’ve been taught by Christ via the Holy Spirit. And by God’s Word and Spirit I also know who NOT to trust.

Jeremiah 17:5
Thus saith the Lord; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the Lord.

Well then, IF... The Holy Spirit truly was your Guide, like He is supposed to be for the believing Christian, then WHY do you reject Bible Scripture as written, and history?

Per the Jewish historian Josephus (100 A.D.), the Romans in 70 A.D. FAILED to get possession of the 2nd temple in Jerusalem. A fire started inside it and it burned down. The placing of the "abomination of desolation" that Jesus quoted NEVER took place in 70 A.D. You said it did, which means you haven't done your homework in God's Word nor actual history involving 70 A.D. Jerusalem.

And in case you don't know, the "abomination of desolation" prophecy from the Book of Daniel involves placing an IDOL abomination for false worship INSIDE A JEWISH STONE TEMPLE STANDING IN JERUSALEM. That is what that prophecy involves.

And don't try... and say Antiochus IV fulfilled that "abomination of desolation" prophecy in 165 B.C., because my Lord Jesus Christ quoted about it as a prophecy for the future after Antiochus IV had been DEAD for around 200 years! A 1st grader can figure out that means that AOD prophecy is still future.

 

[Timtofly]

Pay attention to what I'm saying. Do you even try to understand what people are saying to you? What I said is that Paul indicated that the blindness of SOME of them was removed in his day. Okay? Is that not what he indicated in Romans 11:11-14? It clearly is. Are you with me so far or has your mind already drifted off into la la land?

What I am saying is that the blindness was temporary. As evidenced by the fact that Paul said he hoped to help "save some of them" who were blinded. Understand? And he said they were blinded so that salvation could come to the Gentiles who, in turn, would provoke those blinded Israelites to jealousy so they too would want to be saved like the Gentiles were. And many Israelites became saved that way. And I believe that process has continued ever since and will continue "until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in". Understand? I think I'm being clear here, but you have to actually pay attention if you're going to understand what I'm telling you. You misrepresent what I say repeatedly and I'd love to know why.


What does that mean? When it talks about "blindness in part" it's talking about how there was a remnant of saved Israelites and "the rest were blinded". So, Israel was blinded in part and not completely since there was a remnant of believers.

Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. 7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

See that? Not all of Israel was blinded, but only those who were not part of the elect remnant. So, there was blindness in part in Israel. Understand?


Show me that in context in Romans 11. I don't see that being described in Romans 11 at all. You are not even understanding what "blindness in part" means and you are not understanding that some who were blinded in Paul's day had their blindness removed and they were saved. You are making very little effort to see the context of Romans 11.


LOL!!!!! Where in the world did I say anything like that? LOL! Nowhere. Not even close. Are you just here to make completely insane comments? Is this just all a big game to you? You say the most ridiculous, nonsensical things I've ever seen. You rely only on your own mind only for understanding, but you need to ask God for wisdom (James 1:5-7).

The elect is not a remnant. You are adding that to the chapter.

"As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes."

All of Israel is elect, even if there is blindness in part. You say only the non elect are blind. That would not be in part. That would be a blind majority, with a few elect, not blind. The opposite of what Paul stated.


Blindness in part included all the elect, all of Israel, making it harder to understand the Gospel, but not impossible. The vast majority would rather remain enemies of the Gospel.

Once again:

"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in."

Of course it is an ongoing phenomenon since the Cross. When the fulness of the Gentiles is complete, then the Deliverer will come out of Zion and redeem Israel, and remove the blindness, and those of Israel not tossed into the LOF will 100% be redeemed.

The Second Coming produces this point:

"And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins."

Are you denying that you posted the Deliverer was Jesus crucified on the Cross?

 

[The Light]

Many speak of the tribulation to come, and there is in fact a Great Tribulation to come upon the entire world by way of God’s wrath being poured out on the inhabitants of the world.

Do you not yet understand that the great tribulation is over before the 6th seal is opened. The sixth seal is the second coming which is BEFORE the wrath of God.

But many do not understand that there are actually 2 tribulation periods mentioned in scripture.

In Romans 2:9 we read; "Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that does evil, of the Jew “first”, and also of the Gentile."

In this we see the mention of 2 different tribulation periods determined, with the “first”one which pertained to the Jews, and the last one, which is to be upon all the Nations of the entire Gentile world.

This first tribulation to the Jews was announced to begin by Jesus right after the abomination of desolation and destruction of the Temple mount in Jerusalem occurred in 70 ad. (Luke 21:20-24)
This is referred to in scripture as the tribulation of “those days” which was determined to run “many days” (Daniel 11:33) even all the way to "the fullness of the Gentiles", which I believe is marked by the 6th seal events.
Then at the point of the 6th seal being loosed, this would begin the time of trouble such as the world has never seen, (Daniel 12:1); or the wrath of the Lamb/God beginning to be poured out on the Gentile Nations. (Rev. 6:17)

The great tribulation is over before the 6th seal is opened.

NO SEALS ARE OPENED.

70 AD means nothing regarding end times other that you can count days of the House of Juda to the end. See Ezekiel 4

Then at the point of the 6th seal being loosed, this would begin the time of trouble such as the world has never seen, (Daniel 12:1); or the wrath of the Lamb/God beginning to be poured out on the Gentile Nations. (Rev. 6:17)

Please. The tribulation of those days has not happened yet. When the 6th seal is opened the great tribulation will already be over and the wrath of God will begin

Many confuse these 2 separate events as one single short tribulation event, but a careful study of scripture will show these 2 events are indeed shown as separate in time.

I think you are confused.

Also I would like to add there is no such thing as a “7 year tribulation,”that is just the doctrines of men, as a 7 year tribulation is not mentioned anywhere in scripture, neither is a "pre-tribulation rapture."

There is no 7 year tribulation. There is a 70th week of Daniel.

However the is absolutely a rapture before the great tribulation. It is the rapture of the Church and it will be secret.

So in a nut shell you have the begin point of the tribulation of “those days” (days of vengeance and wrath upon the Jews) starting at 70 ad. as Jesus said and then running-------------->>>all the way to “after the tribulations of those days” confirmed by the 6th seal signs in scripture (sun, moon, stars) And then the beginning of God’s wrath being poured out on the entire Gentile world, or a time of trouble such as the world has never seen. All these things can be confirmed by a careful study of scripture.

This teaching of men cannot be supported by scripture.

The first tribulation period to the Jews was announced by Jesus and would start right after the fall of Jerusalem in 70 a.d. Luke confirms the start point in Luke 21:20-22“And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter there into.22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.”

Also in John 12:31 Jesus said; "Now is the judgment of this world, now shall the prince of this world be cast out."


This event would take place after Christ was crucified, as seen with the man child Jesus being caught to God in Revelation 12:5. Also at this point in time the red Dragon, or the Devil would persecute the woman (spiritual Israel) after he was cast down unto the earth as seen in Revelation 12:13.
Many try to place all these events future forward concerning the last days, but these events were set into motion long ago with “the judgment”announced by Jesus.

The end of this first tribulation period for the Jews is shown in Matthew 24:29 with the words "after the tribulation of those days." If you notice in Matthew 24:29 there is a pause after verse 28. Then Jesus says; "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken." =(6th seal sign)

Well you got one thing right. Immediately after the tribulation is the 6th seal.

 

[The Light]

When you are given understanding you will come to conclude that the time of 42 months is “symbolic of time”when you put all the pieces together comparing all scriptures on this matter.

Oh, the old the Word of God can't be trusted so we have to make things symbolic so our doctrine will work.

This “fullness of time of the Gentiles”is the key to putting this time frame in its proper order of events.

In Revelation 11:2 we see this time period mentioned to John. Revelation 11:2;"But the court that is without the Temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

I believe what throws most people off in this verse is the mention of 42 months, and discerning that time to be a literal 3 and half years. But this time, like most of the symbolisms in book of Revelation should not be taken at face value, but is rather “spiritually discerned.”
To prove this point, in scripture we see the millennium or thousand year reign of Christ is shown as "a season and a time" in Daniel 7:12. So if "a season and a time" is shown as "a thousand years", then “a time, times and half a time” would suggest an even longer period of time; not a short period of time like a short 42 month period. Scriptures also confirm this is cannot be the case as shown in Daniel 12:11-13.

God's Word doesn't seem good enough. We need discernment to figure out why what is written is incorrect.

I believe the 6th seal signs confirms “the fullness”of the Gentile age, but also begins the Great tribulation and wrath of the Lamb upon the entire world, or the time of God’s wrath and the day of vengeance as written. Isaiah 63:4 “For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come.”

Goodness gracious with pickles on top. You think the great begins at the 6th seal. Please...........The great tribulation is over at the 6th seal. Here is Biblical proof

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Pay attention. From the above verses we can tell that the great tribulation is over at the 6th seal. It does not begin at the 6th seal. This is basic stuff and the event is marked by the signs of the sun, moon and stars.

Who ever told you that the tribulation begins at the 6th seal does not understand the basics.

The start time of the Gentiles ingathering period began at Pentecost (7x7 days) right after Christ was crucified, and with the start of the New Covenant period to all Nations.

This start of the Gentile period is shown in the law as the "new meat offering" after the 7x7 days is complete. This treading down of the holy city (God’s people also shown as the “holy city”) also started long ago in 70 a.d., and has been ongoing ever since, and will continue till the time of the end.

This time of the Gentiles was also symbolized by a 42 month period, but it is only a sign of time. This sign of time is also shown to us in Matthew 1:17 with the 3 separate 14 generations periods, or 42 total generations leading up to the birth of Jesus. ( the law and prophets prophesied during these 42 generations)

This sign of time of 42 months can also be symbolically shown like the 7 priests first circling Jericho for 6 days, or 7x6=42. During these 42 generations leading up to Jesus’ birth the law and prophets prophesied as Jesus said in Matthew 11:13 Just as God’s 2 witnesses (Word and Spirit) were also forecast to prophesy for 42 months in all his saints in Revelation 11:3.


Keep in mind the Lord refers to his saints as the “holy city” and as “Jerusalem” in scripture.

Paul also spoke of this fullness of time for the Gentiles here in Romans 11:25;“For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until “the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.”
Romans 11:26;“And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:”

To be continued…

70 AD has nothing to do with end times. No seals are opened.

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

Do you not yet understand that the great tribulation is over before the 6th seal is opened. The sixth seal is the second coming which is BEFORE the wrath of God.


The great tribulation is over before the 6th seal is opened.

NO SEALS ARE OPENED.

70 AD means nothing regarding end times other that you can count days of the House of Juda to the end. See Ezekiel 4


Please. The tribulation of those days has not happened yet. When the 6th seal is opened the great tribulation will already be over and the wrath of God will begin


I think you are confused.


There is no 7 year tribulation. There is a 70th week of Daniel.

However the is absolutely a rapture before the great tribulation. It is the rapture of the Church and it will be secret.


This teaching of men cannot be supported by scripture.



Well you got one thing right. Immediately after the tribulation is the 6th seal.

As I showed in my OP the first tribulation was to the Jews. The first tribulation period began when the AOD was set up in 70 ad and was prophesied to run “until the fulness of the Gentiles” is come in. Immediately “after the tribulation of those days” we are told there shall be the signs in the sun, moon, and stars. ( the 6th seal signs)

At the 6th seal BEGINS the Great Tribulation and Wrath of God being poured out on all the Gentile Nations.

Revelation 6:12-17

King James Version

​

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

God's Word doesn't seem good enough. We need discernment to figure out why what is written is incorrect.


Goodness gracious with pickles on top. You think the great begins at the 6th seal. Please...........The great tribulation is over at the 6th seal. Here is Biblical proof

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Pay attention. From the above verses we can tell that the great tribulation is over at the 6th seal. It does not begin at the 6th seal. This is basic stuff and the event is marked by the signs of the sun, moon and stars.

Who ever told you that the tribulation begins at the 6th seal does not understand the basics.

70 AD has nothing to do with end times. No seals are opened.

1 Corinthians 2:10
But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

 

[Davy]

As I showed in my OP the first tribulation was to the Jews. The first tribulation period began when the AOD was set up in 70 ad and was prophesied to run “until the fulness of the Gentiles” is come in. Immediately “after the tribulation of those days” we are told there shall be the signs in the sun, moon, and stars. ( the 6th seal signs)

At the 6th seal BEGINS the Great Tribulation and Wrath of God being poured out on all the Gentile Nations.

Revelation 6:12-17​

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King James Version​

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12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

FALSE DOCTRINE OF MEN, THAT IS.

The "abomination of desolation" (AOD) DID NOT HAPPEN IN 70 A.D. Those who say it did, are pushing a false agenda from men's doctrines, and not The Bible.

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

FALSE DOCTRINE OF MEN, THAT IS.

The "abomination of desolation" (AOD) DID NOT HAPPEN IN 70 A.D. Those who say it did, are pushing a false agenda from men's doctrines, and not The Bible.

The false doctrines of men DENY the words of Jesus Christ when He spoke of the Destruction of the Temple both He and the apostles were looking at with THEIR OWN EYES!

 

[Davy]

The false doctrines of men DENY the words of Jesus Christ when He spoke of the Destruction of the Temple both He and the apostles were looking at with THEIR OWN EYES!

Men's FALSE DOCTRINES certainly do... deny... the Word of Jesus Christ as written. And I reveal those who push those false doctrines, whether other brethren think I'm being rude or not. How would they know unless someone SHOWED them what God's Word actually says as written?

And like Apostle Paul said...

Titus 1:10-14
10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:

11 Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake.

12 One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, 'The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.'

13 This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;

14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.
KJV

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Many speak of the tribulation to come, and there is in fact a Great Tribulation to come upon the entire world by way of God’s wrath being poured out on the inhabitants of the world.
But many do not understand that there are actually 2 tribulation periods mentioned in scripture.

In Romans 2:9 we read; "Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that does evil, of the Jew “first”, and also of the Gentile."

In this we see the mention of 2 different tribulation periods determined, with the “first”one which pertained to the Jews, and the last one, which is to be upon all the Nations of the entire Gentile world.

This first tribulation to the Jews was announced to begin by Jesus right after the abomination of desolation and destruction of the Temple mount in Jerusalem occurred in 70 ad. (Luke 21:20-24)

This is referred to in scripture as the tribulation of “those days” which was determined to run “many days” (Daniel 11:33) even all the way to "the fullness of the Gentiles", which I believe is marked by the 6th seal events.

Then at the point of the 6th seal being loosed, this would begin the time of trouble such as the world has never seen, (Daniel 12:1); or the wrath of the Lamb/God beginning to be poured out on the Gentile Nations. (Rev. 6:17)

Many confuse these 2 separate events as one single short tribulation event, but a careful study of scripture will show these 2 events are indeed shown as separate in time.
Also I would like to add there is no such thing as a “7 year tribulation,”that is just the doctrines of men, as a 7 year tribulation is not mentioned anywhere in scripture, neither is a "pre-tribulation rapture."

So in a nut shell you have the begin point of the tribulation of “those days” (days of vengeance and wrath upon the Jews) starting at 70 ad. as Jesus said and then running-------------->>>all the way to “after the tribulations of those days” confirmed by the 6th seal signs in scripture (sun, moon, stars) And then the beginning of God’s wrath being poured out on the entire Gentile world, or a time of trouble such as the world has never seen. All these things can be confirmed by a careful study of scripture.

The first tribulation period to the Jews was announced by Jesus and would start right after the fall of Jerusalem in 70 a.d. Luke confirms the start point in Luke 21:20-22“And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter there into.22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.”

Also in John 12:31 Jesus said; "Now is the judgment of this world, now shall the prince of this world be cast out."


This event would take place after Christ was crucified, as seen with the man child Jesus being caught to God in Revelation 12:5. Also at this point in time the red Dragon, or the Devil would persecute the woman (spiritual Israel) after he was cast down unto the earth as seen in Revelation 12:13.
Many try to place all these events future forward concerning the last days, but these events were set into motion long ago with “the judgment”announced by Jesus.

The end of this first tribulation period for the Jews is shown in Matthew 24:29 with the words "after the tribulation of those days." If you notice in Matthew 24:29 there is a pause after verse 28. Then Jesus says; "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken." =(6th seal sign)

Compare to Mark 13:24 were we see the same pause in the verse, and notice the description. Mark 13:24;"But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken."

This sounds just like what the Matthew account has said; but it is the testimony in Luke that shall confirm “the end point” of this first tribulation period for the Jews, referring to “after those days.”
In Luke 21:25 we see the same pause in the verse, and the same signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars. But if you will notice the verse before it we are shown when this first tribulation of “those days”would end, and then the signs in the heavens would begin.

Luke 21:24;"And they (the Jews) shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, “until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled."

This prophecy in Luke 21:24 was shown in Daniel 11:33 “And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.”

Notice “many days” does not suggest a short 3 and a half year, 42 month, or 7 year tribulation period for the Jews. History also confirms this, the Jews have been scattered to the nations and have suffered persecution ever since the fall of Jerusalem in 70 a.d.

When you are given understanding you will come to conclude that the time of 42 months is “symbolic of time”when you put all the pieces together comparing all scriptures on this matter.
This “fullness of time of the Gentiles”is the key to putting this time frame in its proper order of events.

In Revelation 11:2 we see this time period mentioned to John. Revelation 11:2;"But the court that is without the Temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

I believe what throws most people off in this verse is the mention of 42 months, and discerning that time to be a literal 3 and half years. But this time, like most of the symbolisms in book of Revelation should not be taken at face value, but is rather “spiritually discerned.”
To prove this point, in scripture we see the millennium or thousand year reign of Christ is shown as "a season and a time" in Daniel 7:12. So if "a season and a time" is shown as "a thousand years", then “a time, times and half a time” would suggest an even longer period of time; not a short period of time like a short 42 month period. Scriptures also confirm this is cannot be the case as shown in Daniel 12:11-13.

I believe the 6th seal signs confirms “the fullness”of the Gentile age, but also begins the Great tribulation and wrath of the Lamb upon the entire world, or the time of God’s wrath and the day of vengeance as written. Isaiah 63:4 “For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come.”

The start time of the Gentiles ingathering period began at Pentecost (7x7 days) right after Christ was crucified, and with the start of the New Covenant period to all Nations.

This start of the Gentile period is shown in the law as the "new meat offering" after the 7x7 days is complete. This treading down of the holy city (God’s people also shown as the “holy city”) also started long ago in 70 a.d., and has been ongoing ever since, and will continue till the time of the end.

This time of the Gentiles was also symbolized by a 42 month period, but it is only a sign of time. This sign of time is also shown to us in Matthew 1:17 with the 3 separate 14 generations periods, or 42 total generations leading up to the birth of Jesus. ( the law and prophets prophesied during these 42 generations)

This sign of time of 42 months can also be symbolically shown like the 7 priests first circling Jericho for 6 days, or 7x6=42. During these 42 generations leading up to Jesus’ birth the law and prophets prophesied as Jesus said in Matthew 11:13 Just as God’s 2 witnesses (Word and Spirit) were also forecast to prophesy for 42 months in all his saints in Revelation 11:3.


Keep in mind the Lord refers to his saints as the “holy city” and as “Jerusalem” in scripture.

Paul also spoke of this fullness of time for the Gentiles here in Romans 11:25;“For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until “the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.”
Romans 11:26;“And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:”

To be continued…

You misapply the romans passage of evil to the Jew first. that is a general promise ot all men and Jews will suffer general trivbualtion first.

The tribulation is devided into two halves, the first 31/2 years which we call the tribulation, and the last 3 1/2 years which Jesus called teh great tribulation.

There are tow purposes ofr the 7 year tribulation or Daniles 70th week:

1. To punish evil doers
2. To purge, refine and prepare the whole house of Israel and Judah to recieve Jesus as Messiah.

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

You misapply the romans passage of evil to the Jew first. that is a general promise ot all men and Jews will suffer general trivbualtion first.

The tribulation is devided into two halves, the first 31/2 years which we call the tribulation, and the last 3 1/2 years which Jesus called teh great tribulation.

There are tow purposes ofr the 7 year tribulation or Daniles 70th week:

1. To punish evil doers
2. To purge, refine and prepare the whole house of Israel and Judah to recieve Jesus as Messiah.

Paul said the tribulation was to the Jews FIRST for good reason. Both John the Baptist and Jesus warned of the wrath to come.

Matthew 3:7
But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

Luke 3:7
Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

Jesus warned to flee the wrath to come…

Matthew 24:16
Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Mark 13:14
But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

Luke 21:21
Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

This would begin the first tribulation which was to the Jews. But Gods wrath will be turned from them in the end…

Isaiah 54:7-10

King James Version

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7 For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee.
8 In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the Lord thy Redeemer.
9 For this is as the waters of Noah unto me: for as I have sworn that the waters of Noah should no more go over the earth; so have I sworn that I would not be wroth with thee, nor rebuke thee.
10 For the mountains shall depart, and the hills be removed; but my kindness shall not depart from thee, neither shall the covenant of my peace be removed, saith the Lord that hath mercy on thee.”

 

[rwb]

Paul said the tribulation was to the Jews FIRST for good reason. Both John the Baptist and Jesus warned of the wrath to come.

Christ was speaking to His disciples from the Mt of Olives telling THEM that THEY should expect "great tribulation" as they proclaim His name unto all the earth. And that is exactly what faithful disciples of Christ have experienced in this world as they obediently followed the Lord's command to go unto all the nations of the world and preach the Gospel! This time given the universal Church for building the spiritual Kingdom of God as people throughout the earth hear the Gospel, and through the power of the Holy Spirit they repent and believe will not be forever. Once the spiritual Kingdom of God is complete the seventh trumpet will sound, and time given for people to be saved shall be no longer. Then the wrath of God shall come as fire from heaven to burn up this earth and make all things new again.

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

Christ was speaking to His disciples from the Mt of Olives telling THEM that THEY should expect "great tribulation" as they proclaim His name unto all the earth. And that is exactly what faithful disciples of Christ have experienced in this world as they obediently followed the Lord's command to go unto all the nations of the world and preach the Gospel! This time given the universal Church for building the spiritual Kingdom of God as people throughout the earth hear the Gospel, and through the power of the Holy Spirit they repent and believe will not be forever. Once the spiritual Kingdom of God is complete the seventh trumpet will sound, and time given for people to be saved shall be no longer. Then the wrath of God shall come as fire from heaven to burn up this earth and make all things new again.

The first tribulation and wrath of God is upon every man that does evil, first to the Jews…

Romans 2:9
Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

 

[rwb]

The first tribulation and wrath of God is upon every man that does evil, first to the Jews…

Romans 2:9
Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

In this life mankind shall have tribulation, and for all who remain evil the wrath of God shall come upon them. That doesn't mean the disciples of Christ shall not experience "great tribulation" like none other as they faithfully proclaim the Gospel unto all the nations of the earth.