There are 2 tribulation periods, the “first” is to the Jews

[Stewardofthemystery]

Let's stop using words like "ignoring", shall we? I am not ignoring anything. I am going into great detail about how I understand all these things. Surely, you can see that? So, don't tell me I'm ignoring anything because I'm not.

You say that what Paul said in Romans 11:26-27 occurs after the fullness of the Gentiles comes in, but that is NOT what Paul said.

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

You are acting as if verse 26 says "and THEN...." or "and AFTER THAT...", but it says "and SO....". In other translations like the NIV it says "And in this way....". So, in verses 26 and 27 Paul was not talking about what would happen after the fullness of the Gentiles comes in as you are claiming. Instead, he was summarizing what he had previously said by indicating how all Israel would be saved.

Now, here is something I believe you need to address. What Paul describes in verses 26 and 27 is a covenant God made that involves taking away people's sins. What other covenant can that be than the new covenant?

Matthew 26:28 This is my blood of the new covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

The new covenant was established and put into effect by the blood of Christ long ago already.

Hebrews 8:6 But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises. 7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another.

I'm sure you would agree that we need to interpret any given verse or passage in such a way that does not contradict any other verse or passage of scripture. So, with that in mind, why would you not want to interpret Romans 11:26-27 in such a way that agrees with the rest of scripture which says that the new covenant is the covenant under which people's sins are taken away. You are making the covenant of Romans 11:26-27 some other covenant than the new covenant which cannot be true.


Apparently, I need to go there until you understand what Romans 11:25-27 is really saying, which is that the process or plan by which God would use to bring people to salvation, which started in Paul's day, as Paul described in Romans 11:5-14, would continue until the fullness of the Gentiles came in. And then Paul explained that the way all Israel (spiritual Israel - see Romans 9:6-8) would be saved would be by way of the covenant God made long ago (as prophesied about in passages like Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Isaiah 59:20-21) by which people's sins would be taken away and that can be no other covenant than the new covenant that was put into effect by the blood of Christ long ago.


Yes, he is talking about that. He said that the Deliverer would come to turn ungodliness away from Jacob. Scripture says that He already came to do that, as we can see here:

Acts 3:24 “Indeed, beginning with Samuel, all the prophets who have spoken have foretold these days. 25 And you are heirs of the prophets and of the covenant God made with your fathers. He said to Abraham, ‘Through your offspring all peoples on earth will be blessed.’ 26 When God raised up his servant, he sent him first to you to bless you by turning each of you from your wicked ways.”

Peter said that Jesus already came to turn ungodliness from Jacob and we should believe that. What more can He do to turn them away from ungodliness than sacrifice Himself for their sins? Nothing. He said "It is finished".

A futurist interpretation of Romans 11, rather than an ongoing historical interpretation starting with the 1st coming of Christ until the 2nd coming of Christ, just does not work. It contradicts other scripture.


You are trying to relate unrelated scriptures. What does the scripture above have to do with salvation and taking away sins? Jesus isn't coming back to save people and turn them away from their sins, He is coming to bring His people to Himself and then destroy His enemies (1 Thess 4:13-5:11, 2 Thess 1:7-10, 2 Thess 2:1-12).


Which Israel are you talking about? Please specify of which Israel in the following passage will all be saved:

Romans 9:6 It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” 8 In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring.


You quote this without commentary? What do you think this passage is saying?

Perhaps ignore is not the right word, but clearly you are not understanding what the scriptures are saying about “the timing” of when ungodliness is to be removed from Israel AFTER the fulness of the Gentiles comes in.

I have given you several other verses that also speak to WHEN this event takes place, but you just keep going back to the same position you started with. So there is no need to keep going round and round with the same scriptures.

I can help connect the dots for people, but I cannot make someone understand the scriptures, that is up to the Lord.

Peace

 

[JLB]

Many speak of the tribulation to come, and there is in fact a Great Tribulation to come upon the entire world by way of God’s wrath being poured out on the inhabitants of the world.

Tribulation means persecution.

Christians will be persecuted during this time.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Perhaps ignore is not the right word, but clearly you are not understanding what the scriptures are saying about “the timing” of when ungodliness is to be removed from Israel AFTER the fulness of the Gentiles comes in.

I would say you clearly are not understanding it. Again, Romans 11:26 does not say "And THEN..." or "And AFTER THAT..", but that is how you are interpreting it. You also are seemingly not taking passages like this into consideration:

Acts 3: 24 “Indeed, beginning with Samuel, all the prophets who have spoken have foretold these days. 25 And you are heirs of the prophets and of the covenant God made with your fathers. He said to Abraham, ‘Through your offspring all peoples on earth will be blessed.’ 26 When God raised up his servant, he sent him first to you to bless you by turning each of you from your wicked ways.”

Jesus, the Deliverer, has already come to turn Israel away from ungodliness and He did it by way of sacrificing Himself for their sins. What more can He do than that? He didn't say "It is finished" for nothing. The new covenant is the only covenant by which anyone's sins can be taken away and you are not acknowledging that.

I have given you several other verses that also speak to WHEN this event takes place, but you just keep going back to the same position you started with. So there is no need to keep going round and round with the same scriptures.

I have shown you the correct interpretation of those verses, but you won't even address what I said. Why not?

I can help connect the dots for people, but I cannot make someone understand the scriptures, that is up to the Lord.

You think you are supposed to teach me and I think I'm supposed to teach you. So be it. We'll have to just agree to disagree on this then.

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

Tribulation means persecution.

Christians will be persecuted during this time.

I agree

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

You think you are supposed to teach me and I think I'm supposed to teach you. So be it. We'll have to just agree to disagree on this then.

I’m not your teacher, and you are not mine. I was not taught by men, but by Christ; as is the case with ALL of God’s anointed priesthood.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I’m not your teacher, and you are not mine.

Do you not see yourself as a Bible teacher? You know that the gift of teaching is one of the spiritual gifts of the Holy Spirit, right? Should no one have that gift? Should we not teach people what God's word says?

I was not taught by men, but by Christ; as is the case with ALL of God’s anointed priesthood.

I was not taught by men, either, but there's nothing wrong with people being taught by men as long as they are like the Bereans and study it for themselves to see if what they were taught is true while relying on the Holy Spirit for understanding.

 

[Timtofly]

Jesus, the Deliverer, has already come to turn Israel away from ungodliness and He did it by way of sacrificing Himself for their sins. What more can He do than that? He didn't say "It is finished" for nothing. The new covenant is the only covenant by which anyone's sins can be taken away and you are not acknowledging that.

Had that really happened, time would not have been given to the Gentiles. The last 2 millennia would not have been given to the Gentiles.

The Cross marked the point that blindness was placed on Israel, not removed.

The Cross was the point Israel was cut off as natural branches.

Do you think that the OT was null and void for the northern ten tribes, when they were dispersed in 720BC? Is that when the fulness of the Gentiles started and the natural branches cut off? Then why was there still a temple and veil in Jerusalem, where God still came once a year?

If the fulness of the Gentiles ended at the Cross, what has been since the Cross?

You are using verses in the OT about the promised Messiah, to contradict the ongoing fulness of the Gentiles to this very day. Either the fulness of the Gentiles ended at the Cross or started at the Cross? Which is it?

Because the blindness is removed when the fulness of the Gentiles comes in.

Paul uses the term Deliverer. We would not even know who that was if Jesus is yet to be born. You say the fulness of the Gentiles ends when Jesus is born and comes as the Messiah, as if you knew who Jesus was prior to His birth.

We can know that Paul is referring to Jesus because Jesus was already born, but would return as the Deliverer out of heavenly Zion, not coming as a baby as the Messiah. The Deliverer coming is a return, not inferring the first coming of Jesus.

The tone of the chapter is given in the first verse.

"I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite."

Having blindness in part is not the same as being cast off, nor even cut off as natural branches. That blindness only pertains to the current condition of Israel, not the condition of Israel before the Cross, nor even the darkness of the Gentiles prior to the Cross.

The Cross shed a light on the Gentiles, while at the same time, instituted a blindness in part onto Israel. So this blindness was not something removed by the Cross, but started at the Cross.

"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins."

Paul used the word "ignorant" so it is Holy Spirit inspired pointing to those who refuse to see this blindness as being removed at the Second Coming.

Taking away their sins is also a direct promise in Daniel 9:24. Had sin been taken away from creation, the reign of Christ on earth would have started then and there after the resurrection of Jesus. They would never have been placed in blindness, but would be the nation ruling the whole world. Revelation 11:15

"And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."

You have yet to admit the 7th Trumpet sounded in the first century. Why is that?

You claim that Jesus has all authority, which is true, but the earth does not know that, because Israel is still in blindness, Gentiles are still filling the kingdom one soul at a time, and the 7th Trumpet has not sounded. That does not exclude Israel from also receiving the second birth. Many have over the last 2 millennia.

The grammatical structure goes:

"Is happened, until"

Blindness continues until fulness is complete.

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

Do you not see yourself as a Bible teacher? You know that the gift of teaching is one of the spiritual gifts of the Holy Spirit, right? Should no one have that gift? Should we not teach people what God's word says?


I was not taught by men, either, but there's nothing wrong with people being taught by men as long as they are like the Bereans and study it for themselves to see if what they were taught is true while relying on the Holy Spirit for understanding.

I’m more like a messenger. Jesus said that we should not be called teachers, for One is our Teacher, even Christ.
All those who come to Christ shall be taught by God, not by men. A man can receive nothing except it be given to him by God.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I’m more like a messenger. Jesus said that we should not be called teachers, for One is our Teacher, even Christ.
All those who come to Christ shall be taught by God, not by men. A man can receive nothing except it be given to him by God.

I don't care what term you use, but you do agree that some have the spiritual gift of teaching, right? I understand that the Holy Spirit is our Teacher, but that doesn't mean that none of us have the gift of teaching that we can use to teach others. Of course, it's not really us teaching them, but the Holy Spirit teaching them through us.

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

I don't care what term you use, but you do agree that some have the spiritual gift of teaching, right? I understand that the Holy Spirit is our Teacher, but that doesn't mean that none of us have the gift of teaching that we can use to teach others. Of course, it's not really us teaching them, but the Holy Spirit teaching them through us.

Teaching is not listed as a gift of the Holy Spirit. Though there are many teachers, we need not that any man teach us, because the anointing that we have received from God teaches us all things and is Truth.

Also if a man speaks the Truth by the Spirit of God, only those who have the Spirit will be receive their testimony because it has to be spiritually discerned. The natural man, or carnally minded man cannot receive the Testimony of the Spirit.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Had that really happened, time would not have been given to the Gentiles. The last 2 millennia would not have been given to the Gentiles.

Had what really happened? I referenced this passage:

Acts 3:24 “Indeed, beginning with Samuel, all the prophets who have spoken have foretold these days. 25 And you are heirs of the prophets and of the covenant God made with your fathers. He said to Abraham, ‘Through your offspring all peoples on earth will be blessed.’ 26 When God raised up his servant, he sent him first to you to bless you by turning each of you from your wicked ways.”

Are you suggesting that God did not raise up Jesus and did not send Him first to bless the people of Israel and turn them from their wicked ways by dying for their sins and rising again from the dead? If not, then what is your problem with what I said, which is the same as what this passage says?

The Cross marked the point that blindness was placed on Israel, not removed.

The Cross was the point Israel was cut off as natural branches.

You always misrepresent my view. I never said otherwise. You continue to have poor reading comprehension.

Do you think that the OT was null and void for the northern ten tribes, when they were dispersed in 720BC? Is that when the fulness of the Gentiles started and the natural branches cut off? Then why was there still a temple and veil in Jerusalem, where God still came once a year?

If the fulness of the Gentiles ended at the Cross, what has been since the Cross?

I did not say that the fullness of the Gentiles ended at the cross. What is the name of the straw man you're arguing with here? I believe the fullness of the Gentiles will come in when Jesus returns in the future.

You are using verses in the OT about the promised Messiah, to contradict the ongoing fulness of the Gentiles to this very day. Either the fulness of the Gentiles ended at the Cross or started at the Cross? Which is it?

It started then and I never said otherwise. Your poor reading comprehension skills have caused you to waste time arguing with a straw man yet again.

Because the blindness is removed when the fulness of the Gentiles comes in.

What I'm saying is that the blindness was removed from "some of them" even in Paul's day already because that is exactly what Paul indicated.

Romans 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. 12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? 13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: 14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

Can you see here that Paul hoped to lead some of the Israelites who were blinded to salvation? And I'm sure he did. So, their blindness was removed back then. They were not blinded permanently, they were blinded temporarily while the gospel went to the Gentiles and then God's plan was for the Gentile believers to provoke the blinded Israelites to jealousy so that they would want to be saved the way the Gentiles were and the way Paul, the apostle of the Gentiles, was, which was obviously by way of God's grace through faith in Christ.

Do you try to claim that no Israelites who have been blinded since Paul's day have ever been saved and had their blindness removed? They were blinded in part then and some of them had their blindness removed when they were provoked to jealousy by the Gentiles and they accepted the gospel. That process has continued since then and will continue until the future when "the fullness of the Gentiles comes in".

Paul uses the term Deliverer. We would not even know who that was if Jesus is yet to be born. You say the fulness of the Gentiles ends when Jesus is born and comes as the Messiah, as if you knew who Jesus was prior to His birth.

I did not "say the fulness of the Gentiles ends when Jesus is born and comes as the Messiah". Not at all. Again, what is the name of the straw man you are talking to?

I can't take any more of this because you misunderstand everything you read. I don't want to take any more time correcting your misunderstandings of my view.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Teaching is not listed as a gift of the Holy Spirit. Though there are many teachers, we need not that any man teach us, because the anointing that we have received from God teaches us all things and is Truth.

I don't want to spend too much time on this because it's off topic, but you are simply wrong about this.

1 Corinthians 12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant....28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? 30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? 31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

So, verse 1 establishes the context of what Paul is talking about in 1st Corinthians 12 and later he said "God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers...". You say teaching is not a gift of the Holy Spirit and yet that is explicitly taught by Paul. If you think verse 29 is not talking about gifts of the Holy Spirit, then notice what he asks in verse 30: "Have all the gifts of healing"? So, the context of what he was saying in 1 Corinthians 12:28-31 is clearly in regards to the gifts of the Holy Spirit. This is so clear and obvious that I'm not going to say any more about it. Believe what you will about this and we can now get back to the topic of this thread.

Also if a man speaks the Truth by the Spirit of God, only those who have the Spirit will be receive their testimony because it has to be spiritually discerned. The natural man, or carnally minded man cannot receive the Testimony of the Spirit.

I, of course, never said otherwise in regards to this.

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

I don't want to spend too much time on this because it's off topic, but you are simply wrong about this.

1 Corinthians 12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant....28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? 30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? 31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

So, verse 1 establishes the context of what Paul is talking about in 1st Corinthians 12 and later he said "God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers...". You say teaching is not a gift of the Holy Spirit and yet that is explicitly taught by Paul. If you think verse 29 is not talking about gifts of the Holy Spirit, then notice what he asks in verse 30: "Have all the gifts of healing"? So, the context of what he was saying in 1 Corinthians 12:28-31 is clearly in regards to the gifts of the Holy Spirit. This is so clear and obvious that I'm not going to say any more about it. Believe what you will about this and we can now get back to the topic of this thread.


I, of course, never said otherwise in regards to this.

I like how you skipped over the verses about the actual “gifts of Spirit” and jumped way down to verse 28.

Here are the gifts of the Spirit….

1 Corinthians 12:7-11
King James Version
​

7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.”

No mention of “teaching”as a gift of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I like how you skipped over the verses about the actual “gifts of Spirit” and jumped way down to verse 28.

Only to show the context of what he was talking about in 1st Corinthians 12. But, verses 28-31 are obviously in relation to the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Are you denying this obvious fact?

1 Corinthians 12:28 Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. 28 And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? 31 Now eagerly desire the greater gifts.

Here are the gifts of the Spirit….

1 Corinthians 12:7-11​

King James Version​

​

7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.”

No mention of “teaching”as a gift of the Holy Spirit.

You're being very rigid here. What do people do with the gift of "the word of wisdom" and "the word of knowledge"? Keep that wisdom and knowledge to themselves? Or do they use them to teach their wisdom and knowledge to others? We might be arguing semantics here, but there are gifts of the Holy Spirit that involve being given what is necessary to be an apostle, a prophet, a teacher, etc. You say there is no such thing as a Bible teacher. Well, what in the world is Paul talking about in 1 Corinthians 12:28 then when he said God has set some to be teachers?

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

Only to show the context of what he was talking about in 1st Corinthians 12. But, verses 28-31 are obviously in relation to the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Are you denying this obvious fact?

1 Corinthians 12:28 Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. 28 And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? 31 Now eagerly desire the greater gifts.




You're being very rigid here. What do people do with the gift of "the word of wisdom" and "the word of knowledge"? Keep that wisdom and knowledge to themselves? Or do they use them to teach their wisdom and knowledge to others? We might be arguing semantics here, but there are gifts of the Holy Spirit that involve being given what is necessary to be an apostle, a prophet, a teacher, etc. You say there is no such thing as a Bible teacher. Well, what in the world is Paul talking about in 1 Corinthians 12:28 then when he said God has set some to be teachers?

Having “a position”like teaching in the Church does not mean it is a gift of the Spirit. Men appoint men to various “positions”in the Church all the time, but that does not mean they were appointed by God.

 

[Davy]

Many speak of the tribulation to come, and there is in fact a Great Tribulation to come upon the entire world by way of God’s wrath being poured out on the inhabitants of the world.
But many do not understand that there are actually 2 tribulation periods mentioned in scripture.

In Romans 2:9 we read; "Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that does evil, of the Jew “first”, and also of the Gentile."

In this we see the mention of 2 different tribulation periods determined, with the “first”one which pertained to the Jews, and the last one, which is to be upon all the Nations of the entire Gentile world.

This first tribulation to the Jews was announced to begin by Jesus right after the abomination of desolation and destruction of the Temple mount in Jerusalem occurred in 70 ad. (Luke 21:20-24)

This is referred to in scripture as the tribulation of “those days” which was determined to run “many days” (Daniel 11:33) even all the way to "the fullness of the Gentiles", which I believe is marked by the 6th seal events.

Then at the point of the 6th seal being loosed, this would begin the time of trouble such as the world has never seen, (Daniel 12:1); or the wrath of the Lamb/God beginning to be poured out on the Gentile Nations. (Rev. 6:17)

Many confuse these 2 separate events as one single short tribulation event, but a careful study of scripture will show these 2 events are indeed shown as separate in time.
Also I would like to add there is no such thing as a “7 year tribulation,”that is just the doctrines of men, as a 7 year tribulation is not mentioned anywhere in scripture, neither is a "pre-tribulation rapture."

So in a nut shell you have the begin point of the tribulation of “those days” (days of vengeance and wrath upon the Jews) starting at 70 ad. as Jesus said and then running-------------->>>all the way to “after the tribulations of those days” confirmed by the 6th seal signs in scripture (sun, moon, stars) And then the beginning of God’s wrath being poured out on the entire Gentile world, or a time of trouble such as the world has never seen. All these things can be confirmed by a careful study of scripture.

The first tribulation period to the Jews was announced by Jesus and would start right after the fall of Jerusalem in 70 a.d. Luke confirms the start point in Luke 21:20-22“And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter there into.22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.”

Also in John 12:31 Jesus said; "Now is the judgment of this world, now shall the prince of this world be cast out."


This event would take place after Christ was crucified, as seen with the man child Jesus being caught to God in Revelation 12:5. Also at this point in time the red Dragon, or the Devil would persecute the woman (spiritual Israel) after he was cast down unto the earth as seen in Revelation 12:13.
Many try to place all these events future forward concerning the last days, but these events were set into motion long ago with “the judgment”announced by Jesus.

The end of this first tribulation period for the Jews is shown in Matthew 24:29 with the words "after the tribulation of those days." If you notice in Matthew 24:29 there is a pause after verse 28. Then Jesus says; "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken." =(6th seal sign)

Compare to Mark 13:24 were we see the same pause in the verse, and notice the description. Mark 13:24;"But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken."

This sounds just like what the Matthew account has said; but it is the testimony in Luke that shall confirm “the end point” of this first tribulation period for the Jews, referring to “after those days.”
In Luke 21:25 we see the same pause in the verse, and the same signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars. But if you will notice the verse before it we are shown when this first tribulation of “those days”would end, and then the signs in the heavens would begin.

Luke 21:24;"And they (the Jews) shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, “until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled."

This prophecy in Luke 21:24 was shown in Daniel 11:33 “And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.”

Notice “many days” does not suggest a short 3 and a half year, 42 month, or 7 year tribulation period for the Jews. History also confirms this, the Jews have been scattered to the nations and have suffered persecution ever since the fall of Jerusalem in 70 a.d.

When you are given understanding you will come to conclude that the time of 42 months is “symbolic of time”when you put all the pieces together comparing all scriptures on this matter.
This “fullness of time of the Gentiles”is the key to putting this time frame in its proper order of events.

In Revelation 11:2 we see this time period mentioned to John. Revelation 11:2;"But the court that is without the Temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

I believe what throws most people off in this verse is the mention of 42 months, and discerning that time to be a literal 3 and half years. But this time, like most of the symbolisms in book of Revelation should not be taken at face value, but is rather “spiritually discerned.”
To prove this point, in scripture we see the millennium or thousand year reign of Christ is shown as "a season and a time" in Daniel 7:12. So if "a season and a time" is shown as "a thousand years", then “a time, times and half a time” would suggest an even longer period of time; not a short period of time like a short 42 month period. Scriptures also confirm this is cannot be the case as shown in Daniel 12:11-13.

I believe the 6th seal signs confirms “the fullness”of the Gentile age, but also begins the Great tribulation and wrath of the Lamb upon the entire world, or the time of God’s wrath and the day of vengeance as written. Isaiah 63:4 “For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come.”

The start time of the Gentiles ingathering period began at Pentecost (7x7 days) right after Christ was crucified, and with the start of the New Covenant period to all Nations.

This start of the Gentile period is shown in the law as the "new meat offering" after the 7x7 days is complete. This treading down of the holy city (God’s people also shown as the “holy city”) also started long ago in 70 a.d., and has been ongoing ever since, and will continue till the time of the end.

This time of the Gentiles was also symbolized by a 42 month period, but it is only a sign of time. This sign of time is also shown to us in Matthew 1:17 with the 3 separate 14 generations periods, or 42 total generations leading up to the birth of Jesus. ( the law and prophets prophesied during these 42 generations)

This sign of time of 42 months can also be symbolically shown like the 7 priests first circling Jericho for 6 days, or 7x6=42. During these 42 generations leading up to Jesus’ birth the law and prophets prophesied as Jesus said in Matthew 11:13 Just as God’s 2 witnesses (Word and Spirit) were also forecast to prophesy for 42 months in all his saints in Revelation 11:3.


Keep in mind the Lord refers to his saints as the “holy city” and as “Jerusalem” in scripture.

Paul also spoke of this fullness of time for the Gentiles here in Romans 11:25;“For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until “the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.”
Romans 11:26;“And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:”

To be continued…

MUCH CONFUSION OF SIMPLE SCRIPTURE IN THE ABOVE. Beware Brethren in Christ.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Having “a position”like teaching in the Church does not mean it is a gift of the Spirit. Men appoint men to various “positions”in the Church all the time, but that does not mean they were appointed by God.

1 Corinthians 7:11 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

How do you think the gifts of "the word of wisdom" and "the word of knowledge" are supposed to be used?

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

1 Corinthians 7:11 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

How do you think the gifts of "the word of wisdom" and "the word of knowledge" are supposed to be used?

All the gifts of the Spirit are given to edify the body of Christ, but that does not mean we are to call one another Rabbi, or Teacher.

Matthew 23:8
But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren

 

[Davy]

Having “a position”like teaching in the Church does not mean it is a gift of the Spirit. Men appoint men to various “positions”in the Church all the time, but that does not mean they were appointed by God.

And then again it CAN... mean they were given a gift by God to teach via The Holy Spirit (note 1 Cor.12).

These are separate offices in Christ:
1. evangelist -- gift of preaching The Gospel of Jesus Christ, but not for pastoring
2. pastor -- an actual teacher of God's Word, but not so much an evangelist
3. minister -- one who minsters to the sick and poor

All 3 should be able to preach The Gospel. Some Churches have all 3 offices, and they fulfill those separate duties in Christ. I know one Church in my area that has a teaching pastor, and he is a Hebrew scholar, and all he does is teach Bible.

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

And then again it CAN... mean they were given a gift by God to teach via The Holy Spirit (note 1 Cor.12).

These are separate offices in Christ:
1. evangelist -- gift of preaching The Gospel of Jesus Christ, but not for pastoring
2. pastor -- an actual teacher of God's Word, but not so much an evangelist
3. minister -- one who minsters to the sick and poor

All 3 should be able to preach The Gospel. Some Churches have all 3 offices, and they fulfill those separate duties in Christ. I know one Church in my area that has a teaching pastor, and he is a Hebrew scholar, and all he does is teach Bible.

If NO MAN knows the things of God, then why would anyone put their trust in MAN?

1 Corinthians 2:11
For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.