Theosis vs Christlikeness

[Behold]

The cross is not about forgiveness. Forgiveness is covered by "you reap as you sow."

More Cross denying deception..

Nothing less.

 

[Behold]

The cross is not about forgiveness.

Its not about your forgiveness.......that's pretty obvious, as you keep explaining about yourself @Episkopos
If you die in this same literal situation, there is no forgiveness for you, found.

Jesus taught us to pray..."forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us"

God requires a Blood ATONEMENT, to forgive your sin. = The Cross of Christ

Paul teaches that because we are forgiven, we are to forgive.

In truth the cross is not about forgiveness, OBVIOUSLY..

What is obvious, is that based on your continuing to deny the Blood Atonement....then The Cross of Christ has not dealt with you yet.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Thank you Aunty for all the compliments.

It's beyond my understanding that you miss the mystery of the incarnation, 2 natures that melt together.

One more thing -

Joh 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad.”
Joh 8:57 So the Jews said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?”
Joh 8:58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.”
Joh 8:59 So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple.

Jesus referring to the burning bush revelation to Moses

Ex 3:13 Then Moses said to God, “If I come to the people of Israel and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they ask me, ‘What is his name?’ what shall I say to them?”
Ex 3:14 God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And he said, “Say this to the people of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”

The Jews understood what Jesus was saying about Himself, you don't see it, pity.

You may have the last word, it seems to be all in vain.

It's beyond my understanding that you miss the mystery of the incarnation, 2 natures that melt together.

That is a duality at best….not even a hint of a trinity. This is two completely separate beings, one who caused the existence of the other, and who by their own admission were “Father” and “son”.

Are you your father….and is he you? The “2 natures” you speak of is a duality of purpose….they are one in the doing of the will of God….Jesus aptly demonstrated submitting to the will of his Father on the night before his death, saying “let not my will, but yours be done”. How does one God have two separate personalities (let alone three) who can talk to one another, and have different wills? How does one part of God know things that the other doesn’t? (Matt 24:36)

You don’t seem to have any idea how ridiculous it is because you never acknowledge what the Bible has to say to refute this notion.

One more thing -

Is this part 2? I was looking forward to exposing more but this is good enough I guess? One of my favorites actually…..

Joh 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad.”
Joh 8:57 So the Jews said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?”
Joh 8:58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.”
Joh 8:59 So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple.

Can we unpack this a bit?
What was the background to this passage? What is happening in Jesus’ conversation with the Jews who were accusing him in the previous 55 verses? Here the Jews are trying to find grounds to have him executed and Jesus is telling them why they will not find any legitimate grounds. They are claiming to be sons of Abraham, and yet they are trying to have the foretold seed of Abraham put to death.

Look at what the Jews said to him before he responded with the words that are written in your quoted verses…..

“Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad.”

How did Abraham “see” the day that Jesus would arrive as Messiah? He saw it prophetically and knew what it meant. (Heb 11:8-10)
But the question they asked, that Jesus was answering was…..

“So the Jews said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?”

Jesus’ response to that question was…..
”Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.”

Read it again and ask yourself if Jesus answered a past tense question with a present tense answer?
Is God‘s name “I AM” and was it ever the meaning attached to YHWH as understood by the Jews themselves?

If you refer to Strongs Concordance, “eimi” (translated “I am”) appears in so many verses unrelated to this one, and means what it says in English….but it can legitimately be translated “I was” which would make more sense grammatically as a response to the question Jesus was asked.…

 

[Aunty Jane]

Jesus referring to the burning bush revelation to Moses

Ex 3:13 Then Moses said to God, “If I come to the people of Israel and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they ask me, ‘What is his name?’ what shall I say to them?”
Ex 3:14 God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And he said, “Say this to the people of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”

If we refer to the Jewish Tanakh and see how the Jews render those Hebrew verses in Exodus 3:13-15….something interesting emerges.

13 And Moses said to God, "Behold I come to the children of Israel, and I say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they say to me, 'What is His name?' what shall I say to them?"		יגוַיֹּ֨אמֶר משֶׁ֜ה אֶל־הָֽאֱלֹהִ֗ים הִנֵּ֨ה אָֽנֹכִ֣י בָא֘ אֶל־בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵל֒ וְאָֽמַרְתִּ֣י לָהֶ֔ם אֱלֹהֵ֥י אֲבֽוֹתֵיכֶ֖ם שְׁלָחַ֣נִי אֲלֵיכֶ֑ם וְאָֽמְרוּ־לִ֣י מַה־שְּׁמ֔וֹ מָ֥ה אֹמַ֖ר אֲלֵהֶֽם:
14 God said to Moses, "Ehyeh asher ehyeh (I will be what I will be)," and He said, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'Ehyeh (I will be) has sent me to you.'"		ידוַיֹּ֤אמֶר אֱלֹהִים֙ אֶל־משֶׁ֔ה אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה אֲשֶׁ֣ר אֶֽהְיֶ֑ה וַיֹּ֗אמֶר כֹּ֤ה תֹאמַר֙ לִבְנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה שְׁלָחַ֥נִי אֲלֵיכֶֽם:
15 And God said further to Moses, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'The Lord God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is My name forever, and this is how I should be mentioned in every generation.		טווַיֹּ֩אמֶר֩ ע֨וֹד אֱלֹהִ֜ים אֶל־משֶׁ֗ה כֹּ֣ה תֹאמַר֘ אֶל־בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵל֒ יְהֹוָ֞ה אֱלֹהֵ֣י אֲבֹֽתֵיכֶ֗ם אֱלֹהֵ֨י אַבְרָהָ֜ם אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִצְחָ֛ק וֵֽאלֹהֵ֥י יַֽעֲקֹ֖ב שְׁלָחַ֣נִי אֲלֵיכֶ֑ם זֶה־שְּׁמִ֣י לְעֹלָ֔ם וְזֶ֥ה זִכְרִ֖י לְדֹ֥ר דֹּֽר:

Reading this and understanding what this Jewish translation is saying, helps us to understand the real meaning of God’s name. As you can see, where some render it “I AM” it is actually more correctly rendered “I WILL BE WHAT I WILL BE”….so what is the difference and how can we explain it?

Were the Jews unaware of the existence of their God? Was God telling them that he existed? Why would he do that when they already knew him as their God?
The correct rendering of “I WILL BE” was adding a dimension to his name and showing them that he would “BE” or “BECOME” whatever he needed to be in order to fulfill his promises in connection with them. Abraham knew what those promises were, and he understood what God’s name meant to his servants.

So trying to marry John 8:58 with Exodus 3:13-15 is very misleading because the meaning of God’s name never was “I AM”…..Yahweh (יְהֹוָ֞ה) was telling his people what he would ‘become’ to them…..a God who was about to liberate them from slavery in spectacular fashion and make them into a nation under the leadership of his chosen mediator….Moses. They could have had a blessed life if only they had been obedient to the God who saved them. Through many trials, Israel at last produced their Messiah, but true to form, they rejected him and forced Yahweh to reject them. (Matt 23:37-39)

The Jews understood what Jesus was saying about Himself, you don't see it, pity.

The Jews never accused Jesus of being God with a capital “G” (Yahweh) but of being “theos” (god with a small “g”) calling God his Father.
Calling someone “theos” was not necessarily calling them Yahweh….only Yahweh is addressed in scripture as “ho theos”….Jesus is called only “theos” which means ‘a divine one, or one with divine authority’, like the judges in Israel whom Yahweh himself called “gods”. (John 10:31-36)

You may have the last word, it seems to be all in vain.

What is in vain is your unfounded belief in a doctrine that only made it into official Catholic Church doctrine in the 4th century….hundreds of years after Christ died…..and every verse quoted to support this travesty is a manufactured interpretation based on other manufactured interpretations….you cannot see that the Bible itself teaches against a doctrine that is actually blasphemy….a breach of the first Commandment. Three “gods” occupy the place of the Father, but these all have a capital “G”.

The Father alone is God, as the apostles clearly stated…..in 1 Cor 8:5-6…

”For even though there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many “gods” and many “lords,” 6  there is actually to us one God, the Father, from whom all things are and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are and we through him.”

This is two completely separate beings in total unity. The apostles were in no doubt about the God they served along with their Messiah, whom they acknowledge was “the son of the living God”….never once did they say Jesus was Yahweh (“ho theos”)
Father and son are exactly what they said their relationship was….not two parts of a three in one godhead.

You haven’t got a single scriptural declaration to prove that this doctrine is not a satanic lie…..imagine the wailing when the majority who have blindly accepted this lie, find out that they were duped by a proven deceiver. (Matt 7:13-14; Matt 7:21-23) This is a salvation issue.

 

[Lizbeth]

The cross is not about forgiveness. Forgiveness is covered by "you reap as you sow."

Jesus taught us to pray..."forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us"

Then there is the parable of the unforgiving servant who was forgiven his great debt but then was no longer forgiven since he didn't forgive another his much smaller debt.

Then there is the description of God treating us the way we treat others. God is merciful to the merciful. He forgives us as we forgive others

Yes....it's just that once again you are only looking at one side of the coin:

Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins

Those scriptures I gave pertain to forgiveness unto eternal life but sometimes I believe Jesus is speaking of forgiveness in this life....judgment begins with His house. Him not "forgiving" the child of God for certain things means we will suffer consequences and chastisements in this life. It doesn't necessarily mean forfeiting eternal life.

Episkopos, will you please address these scriptures below? How do you understand them?

Eph 4:22-24

That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Col 3:10
And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him

I'm thinking this is why/how the Lord imputes His righteousness to the born again believer.

 

[Behold]

Why does God have to give us "The Gift of Righteousness"?

Its because without it, we have none......and this keeps us separated from God, until its resolved.

God became a Man, wrapped in Human flesh, and provided 2 Things.

1.) Salvation, which is to be forgiven all sin.. as found as THE CROSS OF CHRIST..

AND....

2.) To Provide His Righteousness to the Believer., as the "imputed righteousness of Christ".

Why must you be sinless and righteous to belong to God?

Its because God is sinless and righteous, and if we are not EQUAL, together, then there is no Spiritual Union between God and Human, so, there would be no Salvation for us.

The Kingdom of God is a Kingdom of Righteousness, and we have to become "made righteous" to belong there.. and that is why God has to give us,..

1.) forgiveness of all sin,

2.) and then "The Gift of Righteousness".

And that is what it means to have become .. "A NEW Creation.. .In Christ"......as "born... again".

 

[Episkopos]

Why does God have to give us "The Gift of Righteousness"?

Its because without it, we have none......and this keeps us separated from God, until its resolved.

God became a Man, wrapped in Human flesh, and provided 2 Things.

1.) Salvation, which is to be forgiven all sin.. as found as THE CROSS OF CHRIST..

AND....

2.) To Provide His Righteousness to the Believer., as the "imputed righteousness of Christ".

Why must you be sinless and righteous to belong to God?

Its because God is sinless and righteous, and if we are not EQUAL, together, then there is no Spiritual Union between God and Human, so, there would be no Salvation for us.

The Kingdom of God is a Kingdom of Righteousness, and we have to become "made righteous" to belong there.. and that is why God has to give us,..

1.) forgiveness of all sin,

2.) and then "The Gift of Righteousness".

And that is what it means to have become .. "A NEW Creation.. .In Christ"......as "born... again".

This is a human reasoning that denies the power and merely gives a new label...which did NOT have to have Jesus die for.

A saint is one who has actually become righteous...not just be labeled as one. All this name it and claim it is destructive to the truth which is about POWER. He gives men POWER to become sons of God. Not labels and declarations.

Many here will see what labeling does...Many will be declared unfit for the next age because these have not known God...just claimed to be righteous based on a religious belief ABOUT Jesus...but having never actually encountered or surrendered to Him.

Fit for being rejected as many will? Continue in a surface religion that has no power over sin.

Fitted for the kingdom? Enter into Christ NOW and know the Lord to walk where He is...in Zion....the spiritual kingdom of God.

 

[Behold]

This is a human reasoning that denies the power and merely gives a new label..

God's Righteousness, is not a "New Label"........Its a "Gift. "The Gift of Righteousness.


See, SALVATION is a Gift. "The Gift of Salvation

Eternal Life, is a Gift......"The Gift of Eternal Life"

God's Righteousness, is "the imputed righteousness of Christ". .which is "The Gift of Righteousness"..


See any New Testament for the Update @Episkopos

A saint is one who has actually become righteous.

You have sin.
So, that ends any chance that you can become Righteous, unless God gives you His. as "The Gift of Righteousness".

Jesus died on The Cross to forgiven all your SIN... so that once forgiven, God can then give you His "imputed righteousness" that is "The Gift of Righteousness".

 

[Episkopos]

Yes....it's just that once again you are only looking at one side of the coin:

Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins

Those scriptures I gave pertain to forgiveness unto eternal life

They don't. I have tried to instruct you but in vain as you live in an English only prison that makes you a captive of whatever words (no matter how inaccurate) the translators choose to use.


ἄφεσις
aphesis
af'-es-is
From G863; freedom; (figuratively) pardon: - deliverance, forgiveness, liberty, remission.

You live in a figurative religious mindset that will one day be exposed to the light and declared as darkness.

But read the verses you posted again with a much better rendering...


Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the APHESIS of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the APHESIS of sins

Modern believers are very lazy...not looking deeper than whatever men conjure up to sell more books and fill more pews. Why will so many weep and gnash their teeth?

Episkopos, will you please address these scriptures below? How do you understand them?

Eph 4:22-24

That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Col 3:10
And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him

The New Man is the anointing one receives at Spirit baptism....the power to walk as Jesus walked. In other places this is referred to as putting on Christ, putting on the whole armour of God, the armour of light...etc

I'm thinking this is why/how the Lord imputes His righteousness to the born again believer.

The Lord does not impute His righteousness to anyone, since no one is as righteous as Christ. You wrote out a few verses that speak of putting on the New Man..Christ...as a covering that allows for victory over sin by giving those who enter INTO Him the power to walk in resurrection life.

We can walk in the power of God's righteousness by entering INTO Christ. As the bible says...We fulfill (accomplish (genomai)) the righteousness of God in Him (2 Cor. 5:21). In Christ. We are covered in God's righteousness as we walk in Him.

But modern dogmatism has destroyed the standard of Christ and stolen basic righteousness from the meek and claimed this for those who name and claim this for themselves...thrusting out the true righteous...a damnable act in God's eyes.

Who will be warned of the terror to come? Religious hubris and pride come before a fall. A great fall indeed.

 

[Behold]

Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the APHESIS of sins

If your SINS are not forgiven..

Or as Jesus told YOU..

"I came into the world to save SINNERS" by forgiving their sin......so, if your sin is not forgiven, by the Shed Blood and Death of Jesus on The Cross, then you will "die in your sins".

See, every person enters eternity FORGIVEN their Sin, or Still IN THEM. @Episkopos

 

[Johann]

Yes....it's just that once again you are only looking at one side of the coin:

Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins

Those scriptures I gave pertain to forgiveness unto eternal life but sometimes I believe Jesus is speaking of forgiveness in this life....judgment begins with His house. Him not "forgiving" the child of God for certain things means we will suffer consequences and chastisements in this life. It doesn't necessarily mean forfeiting eternal life.

Episkopos, will you please address these scriptures below? How do you understand them?

Eph 4:22-24

That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Col 3:10
And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him

I'm thinking this is why/how the Lord imputes His righteousness to the born again believer.

You are 100% biblically correct here @Lizbeth and unfortunately Epi is promulgating "another" gospel yet claim he is a martyr for the "right cause"

Keep the faith.

J.

 

[Lizbeth]

They don't. I have tried to instruct you but in vain as you live in an English only prison that makes you a captive of whatever words (no matter how inaccurate) the translators choose to use.


ἄφεσις
aphesis
af'-es-is
From G863; freedom; (figuratively) pardon: - deliverance, forgiveness, liberty, remission.

You live in a figurative religious mindset that will one day be exposed to the light and declared as darkness.

But read the verses you posted again with a much better rendering...


Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the APHESIS of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the APHESIS of sins

Modern believers are very lazy...not looking deeper than whatever men conjure up to sell more books and fill more pews. Why will so many weep and gnash their teeth?


The New Man is the anointing one receives at Spirit baptism....the power to walk as Jesus walked. In other places this is referred to as putting on Christ, putting on the whole armour of God, the armour of light...etc

The Lord does not impute His righteousness to anyone, since no one is as righteous as Christ. You wrote out a few verses that speak of putting on the New Man..Christ...as a covering that allows for victory over sin by giving those who enter INTO Him the power to walk in resurrection life.

We can walk in the power of God's righteousness by entering INTO Christ. As the bible says...We fulfill (accomplish (genomai)) the righteousness of God in Him (2 Cor. 5:21). In Christ. We are covered in God's righteousness as we walk in Him.

But modern dogmatism has destroyed the standard of Christ and stolen basic righteousness from the meek and claimed this for those who name and claim this for themselves...thrusting out the true righteous...a damnable act in God's eyes.

Who will be warned of the terror to come? Religious hubris and pride come before a fall. A great fall indeed.

Unfortunately you don't instruct......you attack and obfuscate and this is just another example. There is no attempt here to bring any clarity, just sticking with your script.

You don't believe the cross brings forgiveness, yet those verses say otherwise, in both Greek and in English.

And as we become new creatures when we come to faith and are born again....the new creature is the new man. The new man that has been created in the image of Christ is created IN us when we RECEIVE Christ. Our new man Christ IN us by His Spirit, the hope of glory....is righteous and holy. After Jesus' resurrection He breathed on the disciples and said "receive ye the Holy Spirit" John 20:22 ...this was before it was poured out at Pentecost. Paul was talking to the church, most of whom would have already been filled with the Spirit as that apparently was done as soon as may be after one came to faith. (Unlike with many groups and churches today.) The early church had great grace and was walking in more power and truth generally at that time. It wouldn't make sense that Paul was telling those who had been filled with the Holy Spirit to be filled with the Holy Spirit. As with many other scriptures, he was exhorting them to walk in what they had already received.

"stolen basic righteousness from the meek".........how so? It is the Lord who says all our own righteousness is as filthy rags.........it falls short of heaven's standard. Nobody is to seek to establish their own righteousness, in doing so they will fail to find Christ.

Anyway, I really see no point in continuing to discuss with you.

 

[Rita]

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