Theosis vs Christlikeness

[Johann]

It is indeed a progression as well as an event.

It is the end of an ascent, after participation in the life of the church, prayer and repentance. It is usually a l-o-n-g journey of discovering that what one actually has, is a shadow of what one reads of the spiritual life of the original believers. It is usually a slow increasingly depressing knowledge of ones failure and lack of any reality of ones claims to be a child of God, unless antinomianism has taken over.

Then there is no disagreement here, as this aligns with what I believe Scripture teaches and what I’ve experienced personally in my own life as well, @Hepzibah.

I am NO spiritual giant sitting on a mountaintop smoking a peace pipe and no earthly good.

So far so good.

God bless.

Johann.

 

[Episkopos]

This is your view Johann which you are entitled to hold though many have disagreed with it.


This is why it is so difficult to have a discussion with those who bring presuppositions to the table.

It is indeed a progression as well as an event.

It is the end of an ascent, after participation in the life of the church, prayer and repentance. It is usually a l-o-n-g journey of discovering that what one actually has, is a shadow of what one reads of the spiritual life of the original believers. It is usually a slow increasingly depressing knowledge of ones failure and lack of any reality of ones claims to be a child of God, unless antinomianism has taken over.


You have quoted something that does not say what you want it to say. Paul has already been anointed which enables us to be partakers and lead others to it. Otherwise it would be the blind leading the blind.



Indeed we are to progress to culminate in Christlikeness in this life. Be ye Holy as I am Holy indicates as to when.


Augustine has never been accepted in the east as he has done in the west.


Again, we go through the process till blessed by restoration in this life. There is never any point when we have acquired the mind of Christ fully. But holiness is required.


There comes a point, in the believers life when he is transfigured, and made a partaker at that point, but this is missed out by opponents and if the heart has been hardened, no arguments from scripture will persuade them as it is hidden from their sight as the Trinity is hidden from those who oppose it.

There are many quotes from the ECF's that confirm that it is a goal to reach. I might get round to quote them.

Holiness begins by an event...only. There is no such thing as a partial holiness. This is to confuse the purity of holiness with a maturity in character.

We can be half mature (immature) but never half-holy.

Anybody with any sense of holiness will see that. The only people that have been duped into believing that holiness is progressive are those with zero experience of actual holiness. These follow a "factory setting" based on doctrines that have been vetted by the temporal principalities and powers as harmless to the status quo.

 

[Johann]

Holiness begins by an event...only. There is no such thing as a partial holiness. This is to confuse the purity of holiness with a maturity in character.

We can be half mature (immature) but never half-holy.

Anybody with any sense of holiness will see that. The only people that have been duped into believing that holiness is progressive are those with zero experience of actual holiness. These follow a "factory setting" based on doctrines that have been vetted by the temporal principalities and powers as harmless to the status quo.

Don't let your "translation experience" cloud the clear Scripture @Episkopos

Your assertion that holiness begins only as an event, dismissing its progressive aspect, rests on a misunderstanding of both scriptural teaching and theological tradition. While it is true that holiness involves an initial sanctifying act (often linked to justification and regeneration), the Bible and the lived experience of countless believers affirm that sanctification is also a continuous, transformative process. Which you deny.

1. Holiness as Both Positional and Progressive
Hebrews 10:14:

"For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified."
This verse shows the dual aspect of sanctification: believers are already "perfected" positionally in Christ, yet they are also "being sanctified" progressively in their daily lives.

2 Corinthians 7:1:

"Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God."

The command to "perfect holiness" implies an ongoing process, not merely a one-time event.

Philippians 3:12:

"Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me."

Paul, though holy and justified, acknowledges the need to press on toward spiritual maturity.

2. The Nature of Holiness
Holiness, in its essence, refers to being set apart for God and reflecting His character. While the initial setting apart (positional holiness) is instantaneous, growth into the fullness of Christ’s character requires time, effort, and cooperation with the Holy Spirit.

Ephesians 4:22-24:

"Put off your old self, which belongs to your former manner of life...and put on the new self, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness."

This exhortation to "put off" and "put on" shows the progressive aspect of holiness.

Romans 12:2:

"Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind."
Transformation into Christlikeness (a key aspect of holiness) is ongoing.

3. Theological and Experiential Holiness
Your claim that there is no such thing as "partial holiness" confuses two distinct ideas: the purity of God’s holiness and the believer’s participation in that holiness. While God’s holiness is absolute and unchanging, believers grow in holiness as they conform to Christ's image.

1 Peter 1:15-16:

"But as He who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct."
The imperative here points to a progressive application of holiness in daily living.

Human maturity, unlike divine purity, is marked by growth. Holiness, in practical terms, is worked out over time (Philippians 2:12-13).

4. Experience of Holiness and Doctrinal Soundness

Your argument dismissing progressive holiness as a "factory setting" lacks substance and undermines the testimony of Scripture and countless saints.

Genuine holiness produces humility, love, and service, traits that deepen over time as believers grow in grace.

Those who claim "zero experience of actual holiness" for proponents of progressive sanctification are asserting personal judgment over others’ spiritual lives, contrary to scriptural principles of humility (Matthew 7:1-5).

The doctrine of progressive sanctification is not a concession to worldly "principalities and powers" but a deeply biblical teaching, upheld by theologians across traditions (e.g., Augustine, Calvin, Wesley).

So-
Holiness indeed begins with a decisive event-justification and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. However, the Bible is clear that holiness also involves a lifelong process of growth into the image of Christ.

To deny this is to overlook Scripture’s emphasis on spiritual transformation and to misrepresent the believer's ongoing journey of faith. Maturity and holiness, though distinct, are interwoven in the believer’s progressive sanctification.

Get your act together.

J.

 

[Lizbeth]

It is indeed a progression as well as an event.

That is how I see it as well. There is both a progressive element or phase of the journey that is seen in scripture for sure, as well as I believe there can be a kind of completion of the good work that the Lord started in us. And maybe by the sounds of things there is still progression even for those how have tasted of the completeness....? Because of the testimonies I've heard of the difficulty of staying in that place of completeness (as I'm calling it).

That place of completeness or holiness is what scripture calls walking in the Spirit would you agree?........and also in scripture called reckoning (by faith as well as in experience - in spirit and in truth) that our old man is dead...?

 

[Behold]

That is how I see it as well. There is both a progressive element or phase of the journey that is seen in scripture for sure, as well as I believe there can be a kind of completion of the good work that the Lord started in us.

"God who started Salvation..........in all the born again........will HIMSELF be faithful to complete it".

This means that Jesus is your Salvation.. He completed it.. and you received it as "the Gift of Salvation".. and now that you have it... there is more to come, after you die....that is your "inheritance".

All of this, is what you receive. ..or have received.

 

[Johann]

That is how I see it as well. There is both a progressive element or phase of the journey that is seen in scripture for sure, as well as I believe there can be a kind of completion of the good work that the Lord started in us. And maybe by the sounds of things there is still progression even for those how have tasted of the completeness....? Because of the testimonies I've heard of the difficulty of staying in that place of completeness (as I'm calling it).

That place of completeness or holiness is what scripture calls walking in the Spirit would you agree?........and also in scripture called reckoning (by faith as well as in experience - in spirit and in truth) that our old man is dead...?

One question here, @Lizbeth-didn't Paul experience everything you've mentioned, and yet it is written:

"Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me."


Why?

Didn't Paul write--

The Greek term τελείωσις (teleiosis, meaning completion or perfection) is frequently used in the New Testament to denote the end goal or purpose of a process. This is rooted in the verb τελέω (teleo, to complete or fulfill).

Philippians 1:6:
"Being confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will complete (ἐπιτελέσει, epitelesei) it until the day of Jesus Christ."
Metaphor: This verse emphasizes a progressive work that will reach its intended telos (end or completion), suggesting a process leading to maturity.

2. Progressive and Completed Elements
The Christian life is marked by both progressive sanctification and moments of completeness that foreshadow ultimate glorification:

Walking in the Spirit:
In Galatians 5:16-25, the believer is instructed to "walk by the Spirit" (Πνεύματι περιπατεῖτε, Pneumati peripateite). Walking implies a continuous, deliberate motion, symbolizing the progressive journey of sanctification. The metaphor suggests an ongoing relationship with the Spirit rather than a static state.

Reckoning the Old Man Dead:
Romans 6:11 uses the term λογίζομαι (logizomai, to reckon or consider):

"Reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord."
This reckoning is both positional (a recognition of what is already true in Christ) and experiential (a daily application in faith and practice).

3. Staying in the "Place of Completeness"
The struggle to remain in a state of perceived completeness or holiness aligns with the tension described in Romans 7 and 8. Paul uses the imagery of slavery and freedom:

Romans 7:24-25:

"Who will deliver me from this body of death? I thank God-through Jesus Christ our Lord!"

Paul expresses the ongoing tension between the flesh and the Spirit, showing the believer’s need for continuous reliance on Christ.

Romans 8:1-4:

"There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus... who walk according to the Spirit."
Here, the term περιπατέω (peripateo, to walk) again highlights a continuous journey, with the Spirit enabling believers to live out their positional righteousness.

4. Greek Metaphors for Spiritual Completion
Race and Athletic Imagery:

Paul frequently uses metaphors of running or striving, as seen in 1 Corinthians 9:24-27 and Philippians 3:12-14. The Greek term τέλος (telos, end, goal) in these passages illustrates the idea of pressing toward the ultimate goal of Christlikeness. In THIS life?

Building and Construction:
In Ephesians 2:20-22, believers are described as a building:

"Being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit."
The verb οἰκοδομέω (oikodomeo, to build up) reflects the progressive nature of sanctification, while the completed structure points to glorification.

Harvest and Growth:
Galatians 6:9 refers to the metaphor of sowing and reaping:

"For in due season (καιρῷ, kairo) we shall reap if we do not lose heart."
This imagery emphasizes growth and maturation over time.

J.

 

[Hepzibah]

That is how I see it as well. There is both a progressive element or phase of the journey that is seen in scripture for sure, as well as I believe there can be a kind of completion of the good work that the Lord started in us. And maybe by the sounds of things there is still progression even for those how have tasted of the completeness....? Because of the testimonies I've heard of the difficulty of staying in that place of completeness (as I'm calling it).

That place of completeness or holiness is what scripture calls walking in the Spirit would you agree?........and also in scripture called reckoning (by faith as well as in experience - in spirit and in truth) that our old man is dead...?

Very good Lizbeth, indeed it is walking in the Spirit and once one arrives at this stage, according to all with that testimony, there is a time of instability, of once more trusting in ones own understanding, or not seeing things through spiritual eyes. This goes on for a period till completeness.

When we first come to Christ, we are walking in the flesh and not able to walk in such a way as we see the apostles walk.

 

[Johann]

I agree with this-

Have you ever done anything in your life with absolute perfection? Of course not! If you're a good student, for example, you must admit that you've never completed an assignment that was perfect. If you’re an outstanding athlete, you’re the first to acknowledge that you've never played the perfect game, or run the perfect race, or participated with flawless performance.

Even if you were able to far outclass any and all competition and standards in your area of work or expertise, you certainly realize that you're not perfect. In fact, the true artists and experts in any field will readily admit that they fall far short of perfection. True experts are more aware of their mistakes and shortcomings as they advance toward perfection! It is only the pseudo or would-be perfectionists that have the audacity to claim flawlessness.

The same is true in the moral realm.

Christians who have come to know and appreciate the perfect righteousness and infinite holiness of God are the first to admit that they fall far short of sinless perfection.

The only Christians who dare to believe that they can reach a state of sinless perfection in this life have a lower view of God's standards of perfection - or a distorted view of God's definition of sin. Some of these Christians may actually profess that they have already attained the goal of moral perfection!

But does the Bible teach that we can reach a state of sinlessness in this life? No way! A good way to summarize the Bible's teaching on this subject would be "progress now and perfection later."

In Philippians 3:12-16, the apostle Paul stated in no uncertain terms that he had not become perfect in this life (v12).

Would we dare to claim that we are living a holier life than the apostle Paul - an outstanding, committed Christian?

But Paul readily admitted that he was far from perfection. He even referred to himself as the "chief of sinners" (1 Timothy 1:15).

Notice, however, that Paul didn't give up when he realized that he couldn't attain perfection in this life! He tells us that he was continuing to press forward, and he was expecting to make progress (v12-13).

He was looking forward to the time when he would become perfect, but that time would come in Heaven. In fact, finally reaching the state of perfection and being fully conformed to the image of Christ is part of the prize upon reaching Heaven (v14)!

The teaching of this Scripture is quite clear: there can be and should be moral progress in this life now, but moral perfection will not come until later.

The fact that Philippians 3 teaches that sinless perfection is not possible in this life does not contradict other Scriptures which, at first glance, appear to teach differently. For example, it does not contradict 1 Peter 1:16 that challenges us to "be holy, for I am holy."

Even though perfect holiness is the standard to which God calls us, 1 Peter 1:16 does not teach that we can actually become holy in this life, or that God expects us to become sinless in this life.

Notice that the verse is not "be holy as I am holy," but "be holy because I am holy."

It’s God's standard. God's holiness, and nothing less, is the standard to which we are called. It is the standard by which we measure progress - even though we cannot attain perfection in this life.

Good parents know that their children aren't perfect, but that doesn't mean they tell their kids to sin only a little bit!

No, they tell them not to sin at all - even though they know that’s not possible. So we certainly wouldn't expect a holy God to command his creatures, even though imperfect, to be less than holy!

Another Scripture that might seem to contradict the teaching of our text is 1 John 3:9, which states that "whoever is born of God does not commit sin." This verse seems to imply that sinless perfection is not only possible for a Christian, but is actual for every Christian! If this is the interpretation, then all Christians should be worrying whether they truly have salvation or not! But the apostle John had just written, "If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us" (1 John 1:8), and also, "If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His Word is not in us" (1 John 1:10)?

How do we understand these verses? The answer is found in the verb tense used in both 1 John 3:9 1 John 5:18. It is the Greek present tense, and is better translated "continue to practice sin." That is, a true Christian will not habitually sin or lead a life of sin. Anyone who professes to be a believer and yet continues to live in sin should do a reality check. Progess is the norm of the true Christian.

Christians are "new creatures" or "new creations" according to 2 Corinthians 5:17. Does this fact contradict the teaching that sinless perfection is not possible in this life? No! As a new creation in Christ, a believer has new spiritual life - life that’s from God Himself. Although this new life is characterized by a divine nature (2 Peter 1:4) that does not sin and is morally perfect, a believer is still capable of sinning. Why? Because of what the Bible calls the “flesh." As used in the Bible, the “flesh" may be defined as those natural, selfish tendencies to live for ourselves that we all have as part of the fallen human race. We Christians are new persons in our essential nature - so much so that the Scripture uses "born again" or "born from above" to describe the radical change. But there is the possibility that we will sin because the flesh, our sinful, nature, is still with us - and it will be with us until we’re in Heaven. But, praise God, it will not be a part of our new resurrected bodies!

While selfish desires will never be eliminated in this life, they can be controlled by the power of the Holy Spirit. Thus we are told in Galatians 5:16 to "walk by the Spirit and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh." We are also promised in Romans 6:14 that "sin shall not be master over you." So it is true that as believers, with new life in Christ, empowered by the Holy Spirit, we don't have to sin. We can never say we “had to sin” or we were "forced to sin." However, because of the flesh, we must also admit that we do sin. And remember - there are sins of omission as well as sins of commission.

It’s impossible to attain a state of sinless perfection in this life. Where is the Christian business person who is fully committed in the area of stewardship in time, talent and money? Where is the Christian husband who loves his wife just "as Christ loved the church" (Ephesians 5:25)? Where is the Christian student who always has the perfect balance between studies, social life and Christian service? Let's admit it. We can make progress now, but perfection is beyond our reach. Perfection will come later.

Because we can't attain moral perfection in this life, should we give up trying to make progress? Of course not! That's like telling the athlete or student or craftsperson to give up because he or she will never be flawless. The mature attitude is for each of us to do our best, and to encourage other believers to do their best. And that's exactly what we are exhorted to do in Philippians 3:15. "All of us who are mature [the word `perfect' here in the KJV and NAS means `mature'], should take such a view of things."

What view of things? What attitude should we take? Progress now, perfection later! According to verse 16, we have the wrong attitude if we stop trying to make progress, or if we say that progress doesn't matter since Christ has taken care of all our sins. While we cannot attain moral perfection, we should move ahead by "living up to what we have already attained."

Are we living up to what we’ve already attained? Are you making incremental progress? Am I? Are our prayers as self-centered today as they were five years ago - or are they more concerned about God's plans and His care for others? Is our patience and forbearance with fellow-believers improving (even with the people who are always dissatisfied and critical)? What about our tastes in books, TV, movies and internet browsing? Not just how well we regulate these areas, but our tastes? Have they changed? Have we progressed even a little bit in the right direction? And how are we doing in the areas we don't often think about, like telling the complete truth, or paying back small debts? We need to make moral progress in every area of our lives!

Suppose we disagree with the teaching and the example of the apostle Paul in Philippians 3? Suppose we feel that moral perfection is possible in this life? Or suppose we lean toward the opposite extreme - that progress is not possible in this life? What does God's Word advise us to do? Verse 15 says that we should be willing to let God give us further insight! A promise is given here: "if on some point we think differently, that too God will make it clear to us."

Let's take God at His Word! Let's meditate on this portion of the Bible with minds that are open to the Holy Spirit's guidance. Let’s think about the related Scriptures that we’ve considered, and see if God doesn’t indeed show us that the teaching of Philippians 3:12-16 is "progress now, perfection later."

- Dave Reid

@Hepzibah @Lizbeth

J.

 

[David in NJ]

Agree in principle with this above.

But not with this, whoa. What is all the bridal imagery all about to begin with, if not marital union with our heavenly Husband?

1Co 6:15-17
Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid.
What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.
But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

Union of the brethren is only possible through Christ, through His Spirit, through our union with Him. It is not a humanistic self-righteous kind of union outside of or apart from Christ, but is called "unity of the faith" in Eph. 4:13. (Faith and spirit being almost synonymous.)

What is all the bridal imagery all about to begin with, if not marital union with our heavenly Husband?

STAY with this @Lizbeth and NEVER let anyone persuade you otherwise

 

[Johann]

STAY with this @Lizbeth and NEVER let anyone persuade you otherwise

Slight correction-

In the New Testament, believers are described as being "married" to Christ rather than directly to God the Father. This imagery primarily comes from the writings of Paul and the symbolic language of the church’s relationship with Christ.

1. The Church's Marriage to Christ
Romans 7:4:

"Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God."

This verse clearly indicates that believers, having been united with Christ, are "married" to Him, not to God the Father directly. The imagery emphasizes the believer's union with Christ, which is central to the New Covenant relationship.

2 Corinthians 11:2:

"For I am jealous for you with godly jealousy. For I have betrothed you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ."
Paul uses the metaphor of betrothal, which further emphasizes the church's exclusive relationship with Christ as the bridegroom.

2. Old Testament Background
In the Hebrew Scriptures, Israel is often depicted as God's bride or wife, but the New Testament shifts this marital imagery toward the relationship between the church and Christ:

Hosea 2:19-20:
"I will betroth you to Me forever; Yes, I will betroth you to Me in righteousness and justice, In lovingkindness and mercy; I will betroth you to Me in faithfulness, And you shall know the Lord."

While this is about God's relationship with Israel, the New Testament expands this imagery to the church's union with Christ.

3. Christ as the Bridegroom and the Church as His Bride

Ephesians 5:25-27:
"Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her, that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish."

Here, Paul uses the marriage relationship to describe Christ's sacrificial love for the church. This reinforces the idea of believers being "married" to Christ.

4. Theological Implication
Theologically, this union with Christ is not a physical marriage but a spiritual one. It symbolizes the deep, intimate, and exclusive relationship between Christ and the believer, rooted in love, sacrifice, and faithfulness. It is Christ's love for the church that forms the basis for this "marriage," not a direct marriage to God the Father.

Thus, believers are married to Christ, who, in turn, represents the fullness of God’s plan of salvation. Through this union with Christ, believers are reconciled to God the Father, but the marriage imagery itself is specifically directed toward the relationship with Christ.

J.

 

[David in NJ]

Slight correction-

In the New Testament, believers are described as being "married" to Christ rather than directly to God the Father. This imagery primarily comes from the writings of Paul and the symbolic language of the church’s relationship with Christ.

1. The Church's Marriage to Christ
Romans 7:4:

"Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God."

This verse clearly indicates that believers, having been united with Christ, are "married" to Him, not to God the Father directly. The imagery emphasizes the believer's union with Christ, which is central to the New Covenant relationship.

2 Corinthians 11:2:

"For I am jealous for you with godly jealousy. For I have betrothed you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ."
Paul uses the metaphor of betrothal, which further emphasizes the church's exclusive relationship with Christ as the bridegroom.

2. Old Testament Background
In the Hebrew Scriptures, Israel is often depicted as God's bride or wife, but the New Testament shifts this marital imagery toward the relationship between the church and Christ:

Hosea 2:19-20:
"I will betroth you to Me forever; Yes, I will betroth you to Me in righteousness and justice, In lovingkindness and mercy; I will betroth you to Me in faithfulness, And you shall know the Lord."

While this is about God's relationship with Israel, the New Testament expands this imagery to the church's union with Christ.

3. Christ as the Bridegroom and the Church as His Bride

Ephesians 5:25-27:
"Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her, that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish."

Here, Paul uses the marriage relationship to describe Christ's sacrificial love for the church. This reinforces the idea of believers being "married" to Christ.

4. Theological Implication
Theologically, this union with Christ is not a physical marriage but a spiritual one. It symbolizes the deep, intimate, and exclusive relationship between Christ and the believer, rooted in love, sacrifice, and faithfulness. It is Christ's love for the church that forms the basis for this "marriage," not a direct marriage to God the Father.

Thus, believers are married to Christ, who, in turn, represents the fullness of God’s plan of salvation. Through this union with Christ, believers are reconciled to God the Father, but the marriage imagery itself is specifically directed toward the relationship with Christ.

J.

Now let this permeate every aspect of your heart, mind, soul and spirit.

The more we do the more the HS opens the scriptures for us

It's like a man and woman dating each other and the more they meet the more they want to be with each other.

 

[David in NJ]

@Johann
Post #71 UPdated

 

[Lizbeth]

I agree with this-

Have you ever done anything in your life with absolute perfection? Of course not!

Same with regard to our service to the Lord....we in our flesh do not serve Him with absolute perfection, no we sure don't. We always fall short that way in spite of our best efforts. But times when the Lord takes over and we in our vessel are in spirit and yielded to Him.........He does what He does perfectly because it is the Lord (His Spirit) doing it and not we in our flesh..

 

[David in NJ]

Same with regard to our service to the Lord....we in our flesh do not serve Him with absolute perfection, no we sure don't. We always fall short that way in spite of our best efforts. But times when the Lord takes over and we in our vessel are in spirit and yielded to Him.........He does what He does perfectly because it is the Lord (His Spirit) doing it and not we in our flesh..

We also have to understand what the Lord meant by "be ye perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect" in relation to our relation to the Father.

 

[ProDeo]

@Hepzibah, @Episkopos

I have a question for a better understanding how both of you experience holiness.

Is holiness living without sin?

 

[MatthewG]

@Hepzibah, @Episkopos

I have a question for a better understanding how both of you experience holiness.

Is holiness living without sin?

Hi Prodeo,

I would like to say holy itself is a word defined “different than the worldly ways,” by the means of the flesh are one way of the world, walking in the spirit would be of course in Christ and lead one to allow the works of Yahavah to come in and through us by his way which are holy or heavenly ways. Different than the worldly way.

We won’t never be sinless but sin less as we abide in Yeshua.

I haven’t looked that word up in awhile you can probably find a definition on biblehub in Greek.

 

[Episkopos]

@Hepzibah, @Episkopos

I have a question for a better understanding how both of you experience holiness.

Is holiness living without sin?

People without experience of God will come up with various dictionary explanations...all vanity. Holiness is living in the presence and power of God. It just so happens that the result is a sinless walk in the Spirit.

 

[Lizbeth]

Then there is no disagreement here, as this aligns with what I believe Scripture teaches and what I’ve experienced personally in my own life as well, @Hepzibah.

I am NO spiritual giant sitting on a mountaintop smoking a peace pipe and no earthly good.

So far so good.

God bless.

Johann.

No, so far not so good brother....peace pipe on a mountaintop...?....walking in the Spirit is not like that at all. You need to see some lovely-in-the-Lord genuine examples, not the typical church conference hype. No earthly good..? I'm thinking a deeper consecration would help us to serve the Lord much better, not worse. For me I don't know that I have a handle on it all yet, doing my best to grasp these things, but don't feel I'm understanding or expressing it quite right yet.

 

[Hepzibah]

I agree with this-

Have you ever done anything in your life with absolute perfection? Of course not! If you're a good student, for example, you must admit that you've never completed an assignment that was perfect. If you’re an outstanding athlete, you’re the first to acknowledge that you've never played the perfect game, or run the perfect race, or participated with flawless performance.



J.

I will answer one thing, that is Philippians 3, from the quote by Dave Reid, in the manner it was given, by quoting someone else and not engaging in discussion, which is often your habit Johann, and which others have rightly complained about previously:

"Verse 12. Not as though I had already attained. For I have not yet received the prize; for I have not finished my course; and I have a conflict still to maintain, and the issue will prove whether I should be crowned. From the beginning of the 11th to the end of the 17th verse there is one continued allusion to the contests at the Olympic Games; exercises with which, and their laws, the Philippians were well acquainted. Philippians 3:11-17

Either were already perfect: nor am I yet perfect; I am not yet crowned, in consequence of having suffered martyrdom. I am quite 1satisfied that the apostle here alludes to the Olympic Games, and the word is the proof; for is spoken of those who have completed their race, reached the goal, and are honoured with the prize. Thus it is used by Philo, Allegorical. Lib. iii. Page 101, edit. Mangey: "When is it, O soul, that thou shall appear to have the victory? Is it not when thou shall be perfected, (have completed thy course by death,) and be honoured with prizes and crowns?"

That signified martyrdom, we learn most expressly from Clemens Alexandra., Stomata, and lib. iii. Page 480, where he has these remarkable words: - "We call martyrdom or perfection, not because man receives it as the end, completion of life; but because it is the consummation of the work of charity."

Basil the Great, Hom. In Psalms 116:13: "I will receive the cup of salvation; that is, thirsting and earnestly desiring to come, by martyrdom, to the consummation."

So OEcumenius, on Acts 28: "All the years of Paul, from his calling to his martyrdom, were thirty and five." And in Balsamon, Can. I. Ancyran., page 764: is, "To be crowned with the crown of martyrdom."

Eusebius, Hist. Eccles, lib. Vii. Cap. 13, uses the word to express to suffer martyrdom. I have been the more particular here, because some critics have denied that the word has any such signification. See Suicer, Rosenmuller, Macknight, St. Paul, therefore, is not speaking here of any deficiency in his own grace, or spiritual state; he does not mean by not being yet perfect, that he had a body of sin and death cleaving to him, and was still polluted with indwelling sin, as some have most falsely and dangerously imagined; he speaks of his not having terminated his course by martyrdom, which he knew would sooner or later be the case. This he considered as the perfection, of his whole career, and was led to view every thing as imperfect or unfinished till this had taken place.

But I follow after: but I pursue; several are gone before me in this glorious way, and have obtained the crown of martyrdom; I am hurrying after them. That I may apprehend. That I may receive those blessings to which I am called by Christ Jesus. There is still an allusion here to the stadium, and exercises there: the apostle considers Christ as the brabeus, or judge in the games, who proclaimed the victor, and distributed the prizes; and he represents himself as being introduced by this very brabeus, or judge, into the contest; and this brabeus brought him in with the design to crown him, if he contended faithfully. To complete this faithful contention is what he has in view; that he may apprehend, or lay hold on that for which he had been apprehended, or taken by the hand by Christ who had converted, strengthened, and endowed him with apostolic powers, that he might fight the good fight of faith, and lay hold on eternal life.

Verse 13. I count not myself to have apprehended whatever gifts, graces, or honours I may have received from Jesus Christ, I consider every thing as incomplete till I have finished my course, got this crown, and have my body raised and fashioned after his glorious body.

This one thing I do: This is the concern, as it is the sole business, of my life. Forgetting those things which are behind. My conduct is not regulated nor influenced by that of others; I consider my calling, my Master, my work, and my end. If others think they have time to loiter or trifle, I have none: time is flying; eternity is at hand; and my all is at stake.

Reaching forth: The Greek word points out the strong exertions made in the race; every muscle and nerve is exerted, and he puts forth every particle of his strength in running. He was running for life, and running for his life.

Verse 14. I press toward the mark. I pursue along the line; this is a reference to the white line that marked the ground in the stadium, from the starting place to the goal, on which the runners were obliged to keep their eye fixed; for they who transgressed or went beyond this line did not run lawfully, and were not crowned, even though they got first to the goal. See the concluding observations on "1Co 9:27".

What is called mark or scope, here, is called the line, i.e. the marked line, Philippians 3:16. When it was said to Diogenes, the cynic, "Thou art now an old man, rest from thy labours;" to this he answered: "If I have run long in the race, will it become me to slacken my pace when come near the end; should I not rather stretch forward?" Diog. Laert., lib. Vi. Cap. 2. sec. 6.

For the prize of the high calling of God: The reward which God from above calls me, by Christ Jesus, to receive. The apostle still keeps in view his crown of martyrdom and his glorious resurrection.

Verse 15. As many as be perfect. As many as are thoroughly instructed in Divine things, who have cast off all dependence on the law and on every other system for salvation, and who discern God calling them from above by Christ Jesus; be thus minded; be intensely in earnest for eternal life, nor ever halt till the race is finished."

The power of his resurrection Adam Clarke commentary.

 

[Hepzibah]

@Hepzibah, @Episkopos

I have a question for a better understanding how both of you experience holiness.

Is holiness living without sin?

Entire sanctification is scriptural and which means being in a condition of submission to Christ whereby He saves us from sin, which the Bible tells us He came to do.

I am not walking in entire sanctification before you ask.