Theosis vs Christlikeness

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Johann

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Theosis is badly understood in the west, and is the main reason why the church is in such a state here I think. Many ill read westerners think that the EO teach that man becomes a god which is false.
Then you would agree here-


*Theosis is the belief that Christians will participate in the energies of God, but not his essence. God’s energies in Eastern Orthodox theology are how we experience the essence of God as finite creatures since God’s essence is ineffable and incomprehensible.

Timothy Ware defines theosis or deification this way: “Just as the three persons of the Trinity ‘dwell’ in one another in an unceasing movement of love, so we humans, made in the image of the Trinity, are called to ‘dwell’ in the Trinitarian God.

Christ prays that we may share in the life of the Trinity, in the movement of love which passes between the divine persons; He prays that we may be taken up into the Godhead. . . . Nor does the human person, when it ‘becomes god’, cease to be human: ‘We remain creatures while becoming god by grace, as Christ remained God when becoming man by the Incarnation.’ The human being does not become God by nature, but is merely a ‘created god’, a god by grace or by status” (The Orthodox Church, 231-32).

This incorrect view of salvation flows from a wrong view of the fall and fallen man’s bondage to sin.

Mormonism, which goes far beyond theosis into the error of explicit polytheism, likewise has a weak view of the fall and a high view of man’s natural abilities. The theology of the church father Origen, who had a tremendous influence on the doctrine of theosis, is closer to Mormonism in many ways than biblical Christianity.

He believed that we eternally pre-existed with God before creation and that there is no hell of eternal conscious torment. Origen’s theology had a huge influence on the Eastern Church and there is a universalist strain within Eastern Orthodoxy today.

Theosis inadvertently falls into the error of polytheism as the Arians fell into polytheism by making the Son a lesser god than the Father.

If we become gods in deification, then there is more than one God regardless of what creative language we use to try to defend a belief in monotheism (Isa 43:10).

Theosis collapses all of salvation down into conformity to the image of Christ while overlooking the legal aspects of salvation. If God’s essence is completely unknowable to us, then we cannot know God as Jesus prayed we would (John 17:3).

The distinction that should be made is not between God’s essence and energies, but between God’s incommunicable attributes which we will never share in and God’s communicable attributes which we do participate in to a degree. See also 1. Monotheism and the Incomparability of God, 9. The Immanence and Knowability of God, and 76. Justification.

[1]See 123. Polytheism for the explanation of this verse and Psalm 82:6.

[2]We share in the glory of God, but not in the same sense that Christ shares in God’s glory (John 17:5). It is only through participation in the bride of Christ who is united to Christ that this is possible.

[3]Christians will be fully conformed to the image of Christ in glorification in that they will be without sin and will never desire to sin. See 82. Glorification for an explanation of this doctrine.

[4]“The divine nature” in which we partake is not God’s energies, but his communicable attributes as evidenced by the descriptions of personal holiness which follow through verse ten. To be like God in this sense is not to become a god, but to live in holiness in imitation of God. As God is love, holy, righteous, and pure, we share in his love, holiness, righteousness, and purity through the work of the Holy Spirit in regeneration, sanctification, and eventually glorification.

[5]We shall be like Christ in glory in that we will be without sin and will share in God’s communicable attributes without wavering.

[6]We are like Christ in this world through living in imitation of him. This is the essence of the Christian life. See 78. Union with Christ and 79. Sanctification.


J.
 
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Episkopos

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I have read Nee's books, and it seemed to me that he held to, what came to be known as Keswickian (a small town in England) theology.

It differs somewhat to the patristic doctrine of Theosis. In Keswick theology, there are two steps, one of justification and then a 'second blessing', which also had some roots in Pentecostalism and Wesleyism.

In the EO tradition, there are three steps, the second step in the west, known as Illumination whereby the follower is revealed the way of holiness by God, and knows some cleansing, but has not yet attained likeness to Christ in theosis.

I am reading an interesting book at the moment called Theology as a Spiritual State in the Life and teaching of Saint Sophrony the Athonite by Archimandrite Peter about this subject of holiness.

Theosis is badly understood in the west, and is the main reason why the church is in such a state here I think. Many ill read westerners think that the EO teach that man becomes a god which is false.
People who try to figure out God's ways will fail. One has to know Him and not His ways...since His ways are past finding out. There are major themes and patterns, but the specifics will vary as He doesn't do the same thing twice the same way.

It's very petty to make a theology about what God has done in the past. It's missing the point. Being led by he Spirit means we wait for His instructions, His move. Speculation has no place in any real encounter with the Lord.

But humans are humans and they want to now ABOUT things rather than know the Lord.

We are called to be one with each other not with God. But that comes from the bible and not from religious speculators who are NOT given to such unity.
 
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David in NJ

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Sure, but with the exception of Adam & Eve, they lived as only ones in the presence of the Lord in Paradise, a supernatural place with no death.

A big Shalom in return.
If it were a supernatural place as in 'SPIRIT' why then did an Angel keep guard to prevent the FLESH Adam & Eve from entering back in?

Flesh cannot enter the spiritual realm.

When Adam& Eve were cast out, they did not need a divine spiritual intervention in order to be transported down to earth.
 
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Lizbeth

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People who try to figure out God's ways will fail. One has to know Him and not His ways...since His ways are past finding out. There are major themes and patterns, but the specifics will vary as He doesn't do the same thing twice the same way.

It's very petty to make a theology about what God has done in the past. It's missing the point. Being led by he Spirit means we wait for His instructions, His move. Speculation has no place in any real encounter with the Lord.

But humans are humans and they want to now ABOUT things rather than know the Lord.
Agree in principle with this above.
We are called to be one with each other not with God. But that comes from the bible and not from religious speculators who are NOT given to such unity.
But not with this, whoa. What is all the bridal imagery all about to begin with, if not marital union with our heavenly Husband?

1Co 6:15-17
Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid.
What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.
But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

Union of the brethren is only possible through Christ, through His Spirit, through our union with Him. It is not a humanistic self-righteous kind of union outside of or apart from Christ, but is called "unity of the faith" in Eph. 4:13. (Faith and spirit being almost synonymous.)
 

Behold

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Can humans be deified?

Sin has defiled us all.

The Cross of Christ is where Jesus's Blood resolves that issue, forever.


Can we become gods?

The believer is born again as "The Righteousness of God, in Christ"..

So, to be reconciled to God, places us as "One with God".


Or, is the Christian walk about being perfected into Christ in His humanity?

The Christian is already born again "IN Christ".. = The have received the Eternal "Gift of Salvation"..

Now their discipleship begins, and this is where the One who is "in Christ".. is to "work our your salvation".

This means, .....Now that you have Eternal Salvation, and exist forever in the Kingdom of God...... there is much you have to learn regarding what it means to have become a "new Creation In Christ".
 

David in NJ

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Agree in principle with this above.

But not with this, whoa. What is all the bridal imagery all about to begin with, if not marital union with our heavenly Husband?

1Co 6:15-17
Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid.
What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.
But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

Union of the brethren is only possible through Christ, through His Spirit, through our union with Him. It is not a humanistic self-righteous kind of union outside of or apart from Christ, but is called "unity of the faith" in Eph. 4:13. (Faith and spirit being almost synonymous.)
Dear @Lizbeth,

Even this what he says is incorrect: "People who try to figure out God's ways will fail. One has to know Him and not His ways...since His ways are past finding out."

Our FATHER who is in Heaven wants us to know His WAY = "IAM the WAY the TRUTH and the LIFE"

To know the Lord Jesus Christ is to know the FATHER and His Ways.
 
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Hepzibah

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Then you would agree here-


*Theosis is the belief that Christians will participate in the energies of God, but not his essence. God’s energies in Eastern Orthodox theology are how we experience the essence of God as finite creatures since God’s essence is ineffable and incomprehensible.

Timothy Ware defines theosis or deification this way: “Just as the three persons of the Trinity ‘dwell’ in one another in an unceasing movement of love, so we humans, made in the image of the Trinity, are called to ‘dwell’ in the Trinitarian God.

Christ prays that we may share in the life of the Trinity, in the movement of love which passes between the divine persons; He prays that we may be taken up into the Godhead. . . . Nor does the human person, when it ‘becomes god’, cease to be human: ‘We remain creatures while becoming god by grace, as Christ remained God when becoming man by the Incarnation.’ The human being does not become God by nature, but is merely a ‘created god’, a god by grace or by status” (The Orthodox Church, 231-32).

This incorrect view of salvation flows from a wrong view of the fall and fallen man’s bondage to sin.

Mormonism, which goes far beyond theosis into the error of explicit polytheism, likewise has a weak view of the fall and a high view of man’s natural abilities. The theology of the church father Origen, who had a tremendous influence on the doctrine of theosis, is closer to Mormonism in many ways than biblical Christianity.

He believed that we eternally pre-existed with God before creation and that there is no hell of eternal conscious torment. Origen’s theology had a huge influence on the Eastern Church and there is a universalist strain within Eastern Orthodoxy today.

Theosis inadvertently falls into the error of polytheism as the Arians fell into polytheism by making the Son a lesser god than the Father.

If we become gods in deification, then there is more than one God regardless of what creative language we use to try to defend a belief in monotheism (Isa 43:10).

Theosis collapses all of salvation down into conformity to the image of Christ while overlooking the legal aspects of salvation. If God’s essence is completely unknowable to us, then we cannot know God as Jesus prayed we would (John 17:3).

The distinction that should be made is not between God’s essence and energies, but between God’s incommunicable attributes which we will never share in and God’s communicable attributes which we do participate in to a degree. See also 1. Monotheism and the Incomparability of God, 9. The Immanence and Knowability of God, and 76. Justification.

[1]See 123. Polytheism for the explanation of this verse and Psalm 82:6.

[2]We share in the glory of God, but not in the same sense that Christ shares in God’s glory (John 17:5). It is only through participation in the bride of Christ who is united to Christ that this is possible.

[3]Christians will be fully conformed to the image of Christ in glorification in that they will be without sin and will never desire to sin. See 82. Glorification for an explanation of this doctrine.

[4]“The divine nature” in which we partake is not God’s energies, but his communicable attributes as evidenced by the descriptions of personal holiness which follow through verse ten. To be like God in this sense is not to become a god, but to live in holiness in imitation of God. As God is love, holy, righteous, and pure, we share in his love, holiness, righteousness, and purity through the work of the Holy Spirit in regeneration, sanctification, and eventually glorification.

[5]We shall be like Christ in glory in that we will be without sin and will share in God’s communicable attributes without wavering.

[6]We are like Christ in this world through living in imitation of him. This is the essence of the Christian life. See 78. Union with Christ and 79. Sanctification.


J.
I will get back onto this later. I need some rest.
 
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Lizbeth

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Dear @Lizbeth,

Even this what he says is incorrect: "People who try to figure out God's ways will fail. One has to know Him and not His ways...since His ways are past finding out."

Our FATHER who is in Heaven wants us to know His WAY = "IAM the WAY the TRUTH and the LIFE"

To know the Lord Jesus Christ is to know the FATHER and His Ways.
Yes I should have qualified that. Epi was making a point that the Lord doesn't follow or invent formulas. For example Jesus never healed the same way twice, but always was led by the Spirit. In that sense I agreed with his point. We too often see the Lord do something one way once and then try to copycat it only to find that copying it and trying to turn His "way" into a formula doesn't work....we also need to be led by the Spirit and often have no idea why He chooses to do what He is doing the way He is doing it at any particular time. In one sense we do become familiar with His ways, but on the other hand we can't predict or control when/how He is going to do a thing.
 
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Behold

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People who try to figure out God's ways will fail. One has to know Him and not His ways...since His ways are past finding out.

Any one can know "God's Ways"..

All you have to do is become Born again, and do this..

"Follow me as i follow Christ".....>Paul teaches.

As by doing that, God will give you revelation that is "the knowledge of God".

Also, by closely examining the Life of Jesus.>>>His motivations, His lifestyle, His words.........when we do this then we learn all about God and His "Ways'.

Why is that true?

Because Jesus said..>>"If you've SEEN ME....... you've SEEN the Father"

There are major themes and patterns, but the specifics will vary as He doesn't do the same thing twice the same way.

Again False.

In fact God saves everyone exactly the same way, for 2000 Yrs.........and not just that...does He repeat exactly the same.
 

David in NJ

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Yes I should have qualified that. Epi was making a point that the Lord doesn't follow or invent formulas. For example Jesus never healed the same way twice, but always was led by the Spirit. In that sense I agreed with his point. We too often see the Lord do something one way once and then try to copycat it only to find that copying it and trying to turn His "way" into a formula doesn't work....we also need to be led by the Spirit and often have no idea why He chooses to do what He is doing the way He is doing it at any particular time. In one sense we do become familiar with His ways, but on the other hand we can't predict or control when/how He is going to do a thing.
Now let us bring all scripture into focus = together

There are Ways of God that are a type of "formula" that is repeatable in and thru us

Example: Matthew 18:1-5

At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, “Who then is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?”

2Jesus invited a little child to stand among them. 3“Truly I tell you,” He said, “unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. 5And whoever welcomes a little child like this in My name welcomes Me.

SEE how this proven Formula is Repeatable and Trustworthy and even Imperative for every man/woman

Each person is unique but the Way to Eternal Life is the SAME = everyday = the Lord Jesus Christ

How the FATHER calls us will have it's own unique testimony.

SIN is not unique, how an individual sins is common to all men, yet not all men commit the same sins
 

Behold

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It's very petty to make a theology about what God has done in the past. It's missing the point. Being led by he Spirit means we wait for His instructions, His move. Speculation has no place in any real encounter with the Lord.

The Bible is "God's Instructions'.......specifically the NT.
We study this, we learn from the Spirit.
If we instead live in commentaries, and so forth, then you end up with nothing but religious ideas, and talk about "zion" a lot.

But humans are humans and they want to now ABOUT things rather than know the Lord.

Christians who are serious about hearing from God, have to start in Hebrews 13:9. and use the KJV for this verse.

Then they have to go directly to Paul, and stay there for life.
Anything else, is a cult teaching.

We are called to be one with each other not with God.

We are called to discern between what sounds like Truth and what is The Truth.

The way you do that, is to notice how a person who professes to be a teacher.... teaches. The Cross, and the Righteousness of God.

So, in your case @Episkopos .. you teach that """"The Cross is not about forgiveness"", which denies it.. and ""you deny that God gives His Righteousness to anyone"", when in fact Paul teaches that every Believer has become..


A.) "The Righteousness... .. OF GOD..... In Christ" as a= "new Creation in Christ".
 

ProDeo

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Mormonism, which goes far beyond theosis into the error of explicit polytheism, likewise has a weak view of the fall and a high view of man’s natural abilities. The theology of the church father Origen, who had a tremendous influence on the doctrine of theosis, is closer to Mormonism in many ways than biblical Christianity.
A small addition, Mormons believe that God once was a sinner who dwelt on earth and worked himself up as God, secondly the Mormon god expect from us the same, to become like him. Outrageous. At least Origin used the Scriptures as a base for a) preexistence and b) universalism, two separate issues and (as far as I know) never was into theosis.
 
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Johann

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Mormons believe that God once was a sinner who dwelt on earth and worked himself up as God, secondly the Mormon god expect from us the same, to become like him.
I was not aware of this.

God's Nature and Mortal Experience:

Lorenzo Snow's Couple: Lorenzo Snow, the fifth President of the LDS Church, is known for the couplet: "As man now is, God once was: As God now is, man may be."
THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST

Official Church Teaching: The LDS Church teaches that God the Father possesses a glorified, perfected body of flesh and bones. While the couplet suggests that God was once in a mortal state, the specifics of His mortal experience are not detailed in official church doctrine. The Church emphasizes that God is perfect, all-knowing, and all-powerful.

2. Human Potential to Become Like God:

Becoming Like God: The LDS Church teaches that human beings are literal spirit children of God and have the potential to become like Him. This doctrine is rooted in biblical passages such as Romans 8:16-17, which speaks of being "heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ." The Church's Gospel Topics essay titled "Becoming Like God" explains this belief in detail.
THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST

Clarification on Deification: While Latter-day Saints believe in the potential for humans to become like God, this does not imply equality with God or independence from Him. The process involves becoming perfected through Christ's Atonement and living in harmony with God's will. The Church emphasizes that worship is directed solely to God the Father and Jesus Christ.

3. Addressing Misconceptions:

God's Sinlessness: The LDS Church does not teach that God was ever a sinner. The nature of God's mortal experience, as mentioned earlier, is not fully detailed in LDS doctrine, and speculative interpretations are not considered official teachings.

Exaltation and Eternal Progression: The belief in becoming like God is often misunderstood. The Church teaches that through adherence to the gospel of Jesus Christ, individuals can inherit all that God has, but this is achieved through His grace and by following His commandments. It does not mean that individuals will replace God or operate independently of Him.

For more detailed information, I can refer you to the official LDS Church website and the Gospel Topics essays, which provide in-depth explanations of these doctrines.



See if you can find it @ProDeo since I am tired-at the moment.

J.
 

Lizbeth

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Now let us bring all scripture into focus = together

There are Ways of God that are a type of "formula" that is repeatable in and thru us

Example: Matthew 18:1-5

At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, “Who then is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?”

2Jesus invited a little child to stand among them. 3“Truly I tell you,” He said, “unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. 5And whoever welcomes a little child like this in My name welcomes Me.

SEE how this proven Formula is Repeatable and Trustworthy and even Imperative for every man/woman

Each person is unique but the Way to Eternal Life is the SAME = everyday = the Lord Jesus Christ

How the FATHER calls us will have it's own unique testimony.

SIN is not unique, how an individual sins is common to all men, yet not all men commit the same sins
There are principles in scripture, amen. To be fair I think Epi did state that. But God works in "mysterious" ways...ie, spiritual ways, and I think it is those ways that are "beyond finding out". I think of it in terms that the Lord always reserves the right to be God and does what He wants when He wants to and how He wants to.
 
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Lizbeth

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Incorrect.

"I said, 'You are gods; you are all sons of the Most High. But you will die like men and fall like any ruler.'"

This statement, found in the Hebrew Scriptures, is best understood in its context. Psalm 82 is a divine rebuke addressed to human judges or leaders who were given authority by God to uphold justice and righteousness. The term "gods" (Hebrew: elohim) here does not imply divinity in the sense of being like the one true God, but rather refers to individuals who act as representatives of God's authority on Earth.

Use of "gods" (elohim):
The word elohim in Hebrew can mean "God" in the ultimate sense, but it is also used for beings or persons who wield divine-like authority or judgment (e.g., Exodus 21:6; 22:8-9). In this psalm, it addresses judges who are failing to uphold their God-given responsibilities.

Context of mortality:
Despite being called "gods" in their role as authorities, they are reminded of their human mortality: "But you shall die like men." T

his emphasizes that their exalted positions do not exempt them from accountability or the consequences of their actions.

New Testament reference:
In John 10:34-36, Jesus refers to this passage when responding to accusations of blasphemy for claiming to be the Son of God. He says:

"Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, you are gods’? If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came-and the Scripture cannot be broken-do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?"

Jesus highlights that if human judges could be called "gods" due to their role in receiving and executing divine authority, how much more legitimate is His claim as the one sent by the Father.

Theological significance:
The passage does not suggest that humans possess divine essence or status equal to God. This is a blasphemous thought!

Instead, it affirms the high calling and responsibility given to those who act as God’s agents, while showing their mortality and accountability. It further serves to magnify the unique role of Christ, who embodies true divinity and authority.

J.
Never equal to God, no, I completely agree, and that is a hill I would die on...scripture is clear there is one God and never will be another one after Him. But believers will be divine heavenly beings one day when we put off this mortal tabernacle and put on what is incorruptible. Jesus said we shall be like the angels. And Jesus also said those who are born again are like the wind which you can't tell where it is going or where it is coming from.....that is like angels appearing/disappearing (or working unseen) and Phillip being translated from one place to another is an example of it....a taste of the powers of the world to come. So gods and sons of God.....like angels. If we are born of God we have a participation in His nature as His children...and God is spirit.
 
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Lizbeth

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I have read Nee's books, and it seemed to me that he held to, what came to be known as Keswickian (a small town in England) theology.

It differs somewhat to the patristic doctrine of Theosis. In Keswick theology, there are two steps, one of justification and then a 'second blessing', which also had some roots in Pentecostalism and Wesleyism.

In the EO tradition, there are three steps, the second step in the west, known as Illumination whereby the follower is revealed the way of holiness by God, and knows some cleansing, but has not yet attained likeness to Christ in theosis.

I am reading an interesting book at the moment called Theology as a Spiritual State in the Life and teaching of Saint Sophrony the Athonite by Archimandrite Peter about this subject of holiness.

Theosis is badly understood in the west, and is the main reason why the church is in such a state here I think. Many ill read westerners think that the EO teach that man becomes a god which is false.
I'm always suspicious of extra-biblical terminology. Where is "theosis" in new testament apostolic teachings or anywhere in the bible. Or "higher walk" for that matter. I don't know why we can't simply stick to what the bible says instead of trying to re-invent the wheel that the Lord already invented. That is an exercise which always winds up going off track somehow, somewhere. The tiniest little wedge in the beginning ends up miles off track by the end. We are not to go beyond what is written. God's word is pure. Man's words are not. (Just my rant and a pet peeve sister, I'm not attacking you.)
 

face2face

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the Christian walk is about being perfected into Christ in His PERFECT humanity towards His FATHER
That perfect humanity was nailed to a cross...this should teach you about its worth
F2F
 

face2face

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Theological significance:
The passage does not suggest that humans possess divine essence or status equal to God. This is a blasphemous thought!

Instead, it affirms the high calling and responsibility given to those who act as God’s agents, while showing their mortality and accountability. It further serves to magnify the unique role of Christ, who embodies true divinity and authority.

J.
You are so close to truth it hurts to read it!
F2F
 

David in NJ

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Incorrect.

"I said, 'You are gods; you are all sons of the Most High. But you will die like men and fall like any ruler.'"

This statement, found in the Hebrew Scriptures, is best understood in its context. Psalm 82 is a divine rebuke addressed to human judges or leaders who were given authority by God to uphold justice and righteousness. The term "gods" (Hebrew: elohim) here does not imply divinity in the sense of being like the one true God, but rather refers to individuals who act as representatives of God's authority on Earth.

Use of "gods" (elohim):
The word elohim in Hebrew can mean "God" in the ultimate sense, but it is also used for beings or persons who wield divine-like authority or judgment (e.g., Exodus 21:6; 22:8-9). In this psalm, it addresses judges who are failing to uphold their God-given responsibilities.

Context of mortality:
Despite being called "gods" in their role as authorities, they are reminded of their human mortality: "But you shall die like men." T

his emphasizes that their exalted positions do not exempt them from accountability or the consequences of their actions.

New Testament reference:
In John 10:34-36, Jesus refers to this passage when responding to accusations of blasphemy for claiming to be the Son of God. He says:

"Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, you are gods’? If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came-and the Scripture cannot be broken-do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?"

Jesus highlights that if human judges could be called "gods" due to their role in receiving and executing divine authority, how much more legitimate is His claim as the one sent by the Father.

Theological significance:
The passage does not suggest that humans possess divine essence or status equal to God. This is a blasphemous thought!

Instead, it affirms the high calling and responsibility given to those who act as God’s agents, while showing their mortality and accountability. It further serves to magnify the unique role of Christ, who embodies true divinity and authority.

J.
All true especially your statement in BLUE

And yet the Lord Jesus and scripture imply even more, in "have I not said you are gods but you shall die as men".
 
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