The Wheel of Life
- Thread starter Netchaplain
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Yes, everything is used by God for "good" (Ro 8:28). Even evil is used by God for "good," e.g. one cannot say it is good for unbelievers to be saved. But one can say it is a good and righteous thing for God to condemn unbelievers.
Behold
Well-Known Member
That verse you posted is Jesus talking about His Apostles, not about you and me.
If you read John 17:12, you'll find the context, and in this verse, Jesus speak about Judas, who was eventually "Lost"..
But it does refer to all the saved, though the passage intends primarily the apostles. God already knew all who are going to be His, even prior to creation, thus the phrase "all who should be saved" intends "all who will be saved, because God knows all who will be saved. The Book of Life attests to this!
John Gill on Jn 18:9:
“Of those whom You gave Me I have lost none.”
"Which, though it has a peculiar respect to the apostles, is true of all the elect of God; who are given to Christ, and shall none of them be lost, neither their souls nor bodies; for Christ's charge of them reaches to both: both were given to him, both are redeemed by him, and both shall be saved in him with an everlasting salvation."
Behold
Well-Known Member
Only in John Calvinism that rejects John 3:16.
God doesn't reject John 3:16.
Calvin does.
TULIP Does
CALVINISTS do.
See, the Cross of Christ is given to "ALL who will believe'.. not just and only to the elect who are caused to believe as lying Calvinism-Tulip
The Cross of Christ is given to "WHOSOEVER will believe".. and again, that is EVERYONE will WILL... not just to those isolated who are caused, as Calvinism Tulip Teach.
Jesus said.....>>"ALL who believe in me, i give unto you, eternal life".
1 Timothy 2:4 say that "God wants all to believe" and Calvin and TULIP say...>>"not True God, let us show you what you mean".
Jesus said, "if i be lifted up (on the Cross).. I will draw ALL people to me".
Calvin and TULIP deny this, and say..>>>"no no no JESUS... NO !!!, you only cause the elect to Believe in you"...
Hyper-Calvinism says...>>"Jesus you're wrong.....i said that you have to make them believe"...
So, its good for the readers here, to see the Calvinists deny God's Grace as a Free Gift, as they try to create God as a savage cosmic psychopath who chooses some for Hell, only because they are born, and then sends them to hell for "rejecting Christ".
That's a CRAZY GOD, and that one is John Calvins and TULIP's..
And that situation, according to Calvin and TULIP< is regarding your own Family, @Netchaplain
Listen..
I dont blame you for not facing that , and responding, as you only have 2 choices, and both are awful for any Calvinist-TULIP. "pre-destinist"
You can LIE and say.>>"well, all my family is/are the elect".. and that is not true according to Calvinism and TULIP, as they dont qualify entire FAMILIES as the "elect", or didnt you know?
A.) Now you do.
Or, you can say..>>>"yeah, its tragic that some of my family are "born to burn in the lake of fire" as Calvinism and TULIP decided for my family, (before some of them were born).
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
Hold on! The Lake of Fire is for unbelievers, Satan and his demons. Born again believers have been given life. We are justified by faith. He paid the penalty ... so there is no Purgatory or afterlife purging of sins, Christ washed our sins away. We are in Christ, saved from judgment.
The Lake of Fire is meant for destruction, not any kind of correction. The Holy Spirit sanctified us and continues to transform us into the likeness of Christ. But when we physically die, our spirit separates from our flesh and we go directly to be with tue Lord on Heaven. He took the punishment for us on the cross.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
WOW! them eatng that fruit brought death to all mankind and gave all mankind damnation. It kicked Adam and Eve outr of the garden and forced all sorts of divine curses and you call it enlightening? WOW!
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
Knowing evil is enlightening to what good means. We couldn't really know mercy, forgiveness, hope, faith, love, life or death unless we experienced their opposites. We could not appreciate God's attributes. It would be just ignorant bliss. And now we know, don't we?
Why do think God put that tree in the Garden, knowing what they would do? He also allowed Satan in there ... some Paradise. Man of course needs to be responsible for his actions and so yes the curses to them and all creation needed to be enforced. But He already had redemption in the plan ( Gen. 3:15).
“Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil."
>Question: Don't you agree that becoming like God, having an awareness of good and evil is GOOD ... enlightening?
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Dear Netchaplain,
Okay. Here is the first one:
1Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
In this natural spiritual condition, no man can call Jesus "Lord" or even have a desire to seek Him out (1Cor 12:3 & Rom 3:10) because the things of the Spirit are foolishness to him. This truth applies to all mankind because all mankind starts off life in the "natural".
The only hope of salvation for mankind is for Christ to act. His first act is to come to a person and freely give them the Early Rain of the Spirit. He gives the Spirit without their permission and without them asking for it.
Paul's conversion experience is a "type" which teaches the pathway to salvation that all the Elect will travel (1Tim 1:16). Paul received the Early Rain of the Spirit on the Damascus Road. He had no intentions of becoming a believer but all that quickly changed for him when Christ "suddenly came to His temple" (Paul). After Christ gave Paul the Early Rain of the Spirit, Paul fell to his knees and called Jesus "Lord". Paul then submitted to Christ's authority and asked "what will you have me do?" Paul blindness symbolized Paul's spiritual blindness.
The Early Rain of the Spirit is the Spirit of Faith and is what causes a person to make a confession of faith when they are presented the Gospel (that is why the foolishness of preaching is needed). After they make a confession of faith (caused solely by Christ's previous work within the person), they will enter the church. But because the Early Rain of the Spirit is given in a small amount, it will leave the new believer carnally minded, spiritually blind and unconverted.
Deu 32:2 My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain (Early Rain) upon the tender herb, and as the showers (Latter Rain) upon the grass:
Job 37:6 For he saith to the snow, Be thou on the earth; likewise to the small rain (Early Rain), and to the great rain (Latter Rain) of his strength.
Joel 2:23 Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in Jehovah your God; for he giveth you the former rain (Early Rain) in just measure, and he causes to come down for you the rain, the former rain and the latter rain, in the first month.
In this weak spiritual condition (Mat 12:43-45), the new believer's house will remain empty (void of truth). Satan will then come to the new believer and deceive them with carnally pleasing lies. The new believer will accept his lies as the truth of Christ because they have no ability to know differently - after all, those lies seem to be true to their carnal mind. However, the bread that the believer is consuming has been fully corrupted by the leaven which has been hidden in the loaf:
Mat 13:33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.
The "woman" in the parable represents mankind's carnal nature/wicked heart. After the believer consumes Satan's leavened bread, the woman becomes the Great Harlot who has spiritually fornicated with Satan via indwelling of the spirit of anti-Christ. At this point, the Abomination of Desolation occurs within the believer and they become a "man of sin".
If the apostate believer is one of the chosen Elect, Christ will "come again" (the second coming of Christ) and pour out the Latter Rain of the Spirit. When Christ comes to the believer, he finds them walking in darkness in an apostate condition.
These verses apply:
1Thes 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety (they feel secure in the apostate church); then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child (the new birth is about to happen/salvation); and they shall not escape.
Psa 68:9 Thou, O God, didst send a plentiful Rain (Latter Rain), whereby thou didst confirm thine inheritance (Elect status), when it was weary (in a fallen away state).
Jer 3:3 Therefore the showers have been withholden, and there hath been no Latter Rain; and thou hadst a whore's forehead (Great Harlot controls the believer's mind) thou refusedst to be ashamed (in a completely deceived state).
1Sam 12:17 Is it not wheat harvest to day? (day of conversion) I will call unto the LORD, and he shall send thunder and RAIN (Latter Rain); that ye may perceive and see that your wickedness is great (spiritual blindness healed and the man of sin is revealed), which ye have done in the sight of the LORD, in asking you a king.
Here is your second verse:
2Cor 4:4 In whom the god of this world (Satan) hath blinded the minds of them which believe not (all mankind), lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
This verse also applies:
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
And here:
Mat 12:43 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man (lies that unbelievers have received from Satan), he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.
Because all mankind is carnal (the natural), all mankind falls prey to Satan's deceptions. And because all mankind follows Satan's ways because of Satan's deceptions, scripture says that Satan is the god of this world. The only thing that can change this "lost" condition of mankind is Christ. He begins His work of salvation by coming to a person to giving them the Early Rain of the Spirit.
I will end here because I have already explained what happens next.
Joe
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Dear Ronald David Bruno,
Read Revelation chapter 19. It concerns the conversion of the Elect. After an Elect believer is given the Latter Rain of the Spirit and is "born again", the Marriage of the Lamb occurs. With this new birth within the believer, their spiritual blindness is healed. This allows Christ to feed His truth of bread, meat and New Wine to the believer. This event is called the Marriage Supper of the Lamb.
Immediately after the supper, judgment falls on the believer remove the "chaff" (all things that makes the believer carnal) from within them. And since judgment falls on the believer AFTER they have been "born again", the believer doesn't experience any wrath during their time of judgment.
In verse 19, the judgment of the believer begins. During that judgment, the beast (man of sin/worsened child of the devil) and false prophet (spirit of anti-Christ) are removed from within the believer and are cast into the Lake of Fire.
Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
After the "chaff" has been removed and destroyed, the believer is converted.
Here is where Christ explains this judgment event again:
Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 40 Then shall two (one believer/one flesh) be in the field; the one shall be taken (man of sin), and the other left (child of God). 41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken (Great Harlot), and the other left (Holy Spirit).
The story of Noah is a "type" which teaches the judgment of the Elect. That is why Christ mentions the story here. Noah represents the Elect and the ark represents Christ. When judgment falls on a believer, they are protected by being "in Christ" (the ark) while the judgment to destroyed the things of the world occurs. In this way, the believer does not experience wrath.
You said:
The Holy Spirit sanctified us and continues to transform us into the likeness of Christ.
You are talking about the judgment (chastisement) of Christ that continues on within a believer AFTER they are converted. Verse 21 of Revelation chapter 20 applies to this judgment:
Rev 19:21 And the rest were slain with the sword of him (truth of God's Word) that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
This judgment is what changes a converted believer's carnal mind (all thoughts and beliefs within it) into the mind of Christ. This transformation happens by the chastisements of Christ and as the believer receives truth from the Holy Spirit within them. This spiritual process takes the new "child" of God and matures them into a "perfect man".
These verses apply:
Mat 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Isa 26:9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments (chastisements) are in the (New) earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.
The Old Earth represents our old marred & carnal spirit/wicked heart/Great Harlot. The New Earth represents the new spiritual nature of the Holy Spirit. As a believer receives truth from the Spirit within them, they will learn righteousness and their mind will be transformed into the mind of Christ.
Joe
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I'm not one who believes that it requires God to first give one desire for Him. Otherwise all would be saved. Those whom God gives the desire to be right with Him will not fail to be right with Him. Our difference in understanding has to do with how one has the desire for Him. Some think it's God that gives the desire, and some think that the desire is from self. Eventually some get tired of the old sinful life and choose to be right with Him for escape from the old self (sin nature).
Dear Netchaplain,
Your comments are completely contradicted by scripture.
You said:
I'm not one who believes that it requires God to first give one desire for Him.
Contradicting verse:
Rom 3:10 As it is written, there is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
You said:
Otherwise all would be saved.
But all mankind will be saved - just not in this age. Christ's plan for saving mankind requires two ages of time to complete. The Elect are chosen and saved in this age, all others will be saved in the final age. Only then will the scriptures below be proven true:
1Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; 4 who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Phi 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 and that every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Rom 5:18 so then as it was by one offence towards all men to condemnation, so by one righteousness towards all men for justification of life. 19 For as indeed by the disobedience of the one man the many have been constituted sinners, so also by the obedience of the one the many will be constituted righteous.
Acts 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
You said:
Those whom God gives the desire to be right with Him will not fail to be right with Him.
In your first comment you said "I'm not one who believes that it requires God to first give one desire for Him" but now you are saying God does give the desire to some people. Seems contradictory. Do you mean that some people naturally have a desire to be right with God but those who don't, God will give it to them, too, so that all can be saved. If this is the way it works (which it isn't), why don't you believe Christ will save everyone who is presently alive today?
You then go on to say that those who have the desire to be right with God (either from their own doing or by God giving it to them) will not fail to be right with Him. So evidently, you believe that salvation in this present age comes from having the desire to be right with God and not from God having "chose" the person. Your belief is contradicted by these scriptures:
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.
1Cor 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:
Don't those who are "called to be saints" (like the Corinthians believers) have a desire to be right with God? Of course they do. However, only a "few" of the Corinthian believers are actually chosen to be saints. Most will die in their sins and won't be made right with God.
Because of Satan's deceptions, everyone who is called to be a saint (the "many") will fall away from approaching Christ strictly by faith and will start mixing in their own "works" for salvation. They all have a desire to be right with God but none of them have the ability to approach Christ strictly by faith whereby Christ's pathway will be made straight so that He will come and save them. But from that group of "many" who are called to be saints, a "few" have been chosen for salvation. For them, Christ will come to them a second time and complete His work within them. Merely having a desire to be right with God does not make a person one of the Elect.
Consider this statement made by Paul concerning the Nation of Israel's strong desire for God:
Rom 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. 2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
Even though the Nation of Israel has a "zeal" for God, most of the Nation of Israel will die in their sins and receive their portion with the unbelievers in the Lake of Fire.
Joe
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Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
I don't know where you get your theology - it's off. Rev. 19 is during the Great Tribulation. The church has been raptured by this time period in this chapter. Salvation, tue receiving of our glorified bodies and worship occurs. Jesus prepares for war against the unbelieving souls on earth. That's coming. The Church consists of already born again believers, in Christ and there is no condemnation.
Transformation is not triggered by chastisement. God chastises believes during our lives when we get out of line but this does not having anything to do with the gift of salvation. And we have nothing to donwith the Lake of Fire!
We do not suffer to be born again, we believe that Jesus died fir our sins was buried and rise from the dead on the third day. Jesus is the Author of our faith, it is a gift. We are saved by grace through faith --- He suffered for us. We do not earn our salvation by works or suffering. What Church did you go to???
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Actually, the majority of mankind will perish (Mat 7:13,14).
This passage is in the sense that God "wills to have all men be saved," i.e. desires all men to be saved. But He knows that the saved will be few in comparison to the number of the lost. God already knew this is how it would be. He knew it would be worth those who will come to Him.
Dear Netchaplain,
You said:
Actually, the majority of mankind will perish (Mat 7:13,14).
Here are the verses:
Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
The people who are cast into the Lake of Fire in the final age are headed for destruction because death is the penalty of sin. However, you are not taking into consideration what these verses below say.
Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. 10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: 11 For with stammering lips and another language will he speak to this people. 12 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
Psa 119:160 The sum of your word is truth, and every one of your righteous rules endures forever.
The truth of God's Word is concealed from carnal mankind in many ways. One of the ways that an apostate believer does not take into account is that Christ teaches "here a little and there a little". You cannot take one verse of scripture and make assumptions about it. You must look to other scripture in order to "see" the whole truth of the matter.
When you read Mat 7:13-14, you are ignoring a great deal of scripture in order to support your false beliefs. You need to learn from scripture in the prescribed way that scripture teaches a believer to follow.
Below are verses you need to consider so that you don't make false assumptions on Mat 7:13-14 as you are doing.
All judgment has been given to Christ:
John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
When the "lost" in final age are judged by the Law, Christ is the one who administers their judgment. When He does, He will not administer the Law in the same way as you and the Pharisees do.
Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law: justice, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
Christ will not omit mercy and faith when He administers the Law to the "lost". Why do you keep insisting that He will? I have presented this verse above to you before but you ignore what it states.
When Christ administers the Law to the "lost", He will show them MERCY before they perish. Why? Because Christ is not willing that any should perish:
2Pet 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
If Christ is not willing that any should perish, who is going to stop Him from having mercy upon the "lost"?
Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of the heavens, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?
The Father has given Christ all the authority of administering judgment upon mankind. Since Christ says that He will not omit mercy in a person's judgment and that He is not willing that they should perish, what do you think is going to happen?
This is what will happen:
Christ's mercy will come to the "lost" in the form of the Early Rain of the Spirit. The Early Rain of the Spirit is what gives a carnal person their FAITH. This is the only way that a person can have faith because scripture says that no man can call Jesus "Lord" unless they have the Holy Spirit (1Cor 12:3).
So what value is faith to the person?
Faith is what makes Christ's pathway straight for Him to come to the person and pour out the Latter Rain of the Spirit. When Christ comes to the person, they will be converted. The newly born child of God will then be removed from Christ's judgment because the new child of God is without sin and will not be judged.
So how is JUSTICE satisfied?
JUSTICE is satisfied by the destruction of the child of the devil who will remain in the Lake of Fire (under judgment) until he perishes.
In the way that I described above is how Christ will add MERCY, FAITH AND JUSTICE to a lost person's judgment in the Lake of Fire. This entire process is called "conversion" and is the work that Christ will do to save mankind - just as the Father sent Him to do:
1John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.
Where is your faith to believe what Christ has stated in all the verses I presented above?
Do you have faith to believe the verses below?
Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
After Christ has converted the last person in the Lake of Fire, this scripture below will be testified to be true:
1Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; 4 who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
If you believe that the scripture should be translated as "desires" instead of "will have", the scripture itself would not make any sense. Can't you see that? I'll explain it below.
If Christ only desires to saved mankind, that is an emotion. An emotion can be testified to be true in the present because it does not require anything to happen. But when the verse is translated as "will have", it does require something to happen in the future (due time). After it has happened, it can only then be "testified" to be true.
But even if the verse should be translated as "desires", you need to apply the verse below to your understanding (a little here and a little there).
Job 23:13 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? And what his soul desireth, that will he do.
Christ is mankind's God and even if He only desires to save all mankind, "that will he do".
You need to really ask yourself if you have any faith in God's written Word, because to me, I can't see that you do. You have your preconceived beliefs which have been taught to you by "ministers of Satan". Because of those false beliefs, you seem to be willing to twist or ignore certain scriptures so that those beliefs don't die.
You need the Latter Rain of the Spirit to open your eyes to the truth - and as scripture says, you should pray for it:
Luke 11:11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent? 12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? 13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
Joe
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Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
To answer your question- That is not gods ultimate plan.
And it is not "knowing" good and evil. but the Hebrew shows it was deciding for themselves what was good and evil.
they already knew good and evil as they had a prohibition from god.
Because of Gods love for us we know mercy, and grace and forgiveness now after we sinned.
Romans 3:8
And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.
Just because God redeems- is not a justification to do evil as our original parents did!
Dear Ronald David Bruno,
You said:
I don't know where you get your theology - it's off. Rev. 19 is during the Great Tribulation. The church has been raptured by this time period in this chapter.
I get my understanding from scripture. The "great tribulation" occurs to a believer when they are under Satan's deceptions and have fallen prey to the spirit of anti-Christ. The great tribulation is not some future time period that occurs out in the world. Christ's words are spirit and the spiritual happens within a person. Also, the "ends of the ages" ( what Christ was teaching in Mat 24), is referring to when a believer is converted. That's why Paul said this:
1Cor 10:11 Now all these things happened to them as types, and have been written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages are come.
100% of "end time" prophecy is teaching about the "signs of the times" that lead up and include when Christ returns to an Elect believer with the Latter Rain of the Spirit to convert them. The end-time events DO NOT happen out in the world at the literal end of the age. Christ comes quickly to all of His Elect and not at the literal end of the age. When He comes to His Elect, He brings them their free gift of salvation:
Heb 9:28 So Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.
You said:
The Church consists of already born again believers, in Christ and there is no condemnation.
Yes, that is true of converted believers who have received both the Early and Latter Rains of the Spirit. However, all the 2,000 plus denominations/sects of Christianity in the world are made up of believers who are not converted. They have only received the Early Rain of the Spirit. Because the Early Rain does not heal the spiritual blindness of a new believer, they have become deceived by Satan and have become apostate. They are experiencing their time of "great tribulation". If the apostate believer is not one of the chosen, they will die in their sins and be condemned to the Lake of Fire upon their resurrection. They are the "many" who are called but not chosen. Only a chosen "few" will receive the Latter Rain and be converted prior to their death.
You said:
Transformation is not triggered by chastisement. God chastises believes during our lives when we get out of line but this does not having anything to do with the gift of salvation. And we have nothing to donwith the Lake of Fire!
The transformation of the carnal mind into the mind of Christ requires "truth" and the chastisement of Christ. Christ only gives "truth" and chastisement to Elect believers who have been converted. When a person is converted, their heart is changed. From having a new heart, their carnal mind is transformed into the mind of Christ. It is a slow spiritual process.
The Lake of Fire is for judging and destroying the children of the Devil. But since the Elect are born as a child of God PRIOR to being judged in the Lake of Fire, they do not experience God's wrath in the Lake of Fire. However, for the condemned of the final age, they will experience wrath because they are still a child of the Devil during their time of judgment. But prior to the child of the devil's destruction though, Christ will have mercy upon the lost person and give them the free gift of salvation. The new child of God will then be born and come out of the Lake of Fire, leaving only the child of the devil there to be destroyed.
You said:
We do not suffer to be born again, we believe that Jesus died fir our sins was buried and rise from the dead on the third day. Jesus is the Author of our faith, it is a gift.
These scriptures say differently:
Acts 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.
Rev 7: 14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they (the Elect) which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. 16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. 17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.
You asked:
What Church did you go to???
I have not associated with any church since I was converted in 2005 (I was 44 years old at that time). At the time of my conversion, I found that all the church denominations/sects of Christianity in the world are apostate just as Paul said they would be (Acts 20:29-31). They all mix "works" with faith. After my conversion, my fellowship has been with my wife, the few converted believers I have met online, and with Christ & His Father.
Before I was converted, I grew up in the Church of Christ denomination. As an young adult, I attended a Baptist church and then onto a couple of non-denominational churches. Then, in the year and a half prior to my conversion, I attended a Pentecostal church.
All the churches that I attended were apostate churches - but this makes sense because I was an apostate believer.
I will post my conversion testimony in a second post which will explain what happened to my wife and I at that time.
Joe
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Conversion Testimony of Joe & Julie Edwards
In the year 2000, I relocated to Fayetteville, Arkansas with my wife and three sons. We visited many churches during those first years there but we never could find any that seemed to have a real love for the Lord. After our own personal study of the scripture, we decided that we wanted to be baptized in the name of Jesus instead of the Father, Son & Holy Spirit as we had done many years ago. We could not find any churches that would baptize this way until we talked to a friend who went to a Oneness Pentecostal church. They agreed to baptize us in the name of Jesus so we decided to go there and be baptized, even though we were from a Church of Christ/Baptist type background.
Four weeks after we were baptized, my wife was filled with the Spirit at home and started speaking in tongues. It was a very powerful experience with her. She spent a great deal of time on her knees in tears, speaking in tongues as she prayed. We didn't really know what to think of it since we came from a church background which denied tongues.
A few weeks went by and she would still go on her knees in prayer every day and the Spirit would speak through her in tongues until one day as she spoke, the words changed into English. We soon realized that she was prophesying in the Spirit. We had never even heard of this gift before and were greatly amazed by it. Over the next year & a half, she received "words" (that is what we call them) from the Lord more than two dozen times. One of the words she received told us that the Lord had great treasure for us if we would continue seeking him.
I will quote it to you:
"I am. I know your heart. Seek Me and I will be found. Look deep into My Word. The truth is not to be given by man but only revealed by Me. It is for those whose hearts desire it above the treasures of this world. You must give up all and treasure you will receive. I am the truth and the only way. I am the Lord."
Julie received this "word" in July 2004. I know what you are thinking - I wouldn't have believed it is real either if someone were to tell me about it happening to someone else. I was not sure whether to believe it or not for a long time. But after a few months, I did come to believe it was really from the Lord because the things she prayed over and received "words" concerning, would come to pass just as she prophesied.
Then on Tuesday, October 4th, 2005, I saw a story on my computer concerning a young Muslim boy (age 12) who had just lived through a recent earthquake in Pakistan. After reading the story, my heart really felt for him and what He had just went through (he lost his parents). That evening in prayer at home, the image of the boy came back to me and I grieved for him as I prayed. I was not grieving for him just because of what he suffered in the earthquake. I was grieving for him because I thought he was going to be eternally lost and that he didn’t have a realistic chance of being saved. I couldn't understand why I had been blessed with the opportunity to know the Lord and why he had virtually no opportunity since he lived in a Muslim country. I asked the Lord why this was the case. I was so confused and couldn't understand why he was most likely going to hell just because of where he had been born.
Almost three days had passed since I had prayed that prayer and I had not given it much more thought. Then on Friday, Oct. 7, 2005, I had some extra time at work so I decided to study "end-time" prophecy on the internet (my great passion). I conducted a google search and a list of websites came up. From the list, I noticed Ray Smith's website called bible-truths.com. I thought it looked interesting so I clicked on it. By the next morning, I had read his Lake of Fire series for a few hours and was now on the fourth part. I couldn't believe what I had been reading but I still felt compelled to continue reading it anyway. Later that same morning (Saturday, Oct. 8, 2005), I took a break from my reading to pray about it. I prayed for the Lord to open my eyes if what Ray Smith had written was true. I then went back to reading and was still on the fourth part when the Lord suddenly opened my eyes. I became overjoyed at the new truth the Lord had just revealed to me! It was joy like I had never felt before in my life.
It was at that moment that I remembered my prayer from earlier in the week concerning the Muslim boy. Immediately, I knew that this new truth which the Lord had just shown me was the answer to that prayer. I was overjoyed again. I then decided to find Julie (she was in the kitchen) and share with her what the Lord had just revealed to me. I explained to her what I had been reading and pointed out the supporting scriptures. Within 30 minutes, she was filled with the Spirit and began praising the Lord because of the new knowledge of the truth which He had just revealed to her, too.
Over the next few weeks, Julie and I studied scripture every day and learned many new truths. When we decided to share those new truths with our friends at church, they could not accept any of them. As a result, we quickly left the church and never returned.
In just a few short weeks, Julie and I had learned so much from our studies that nearly everything we knew before as “truth”, we now knew to be lies from Satan. I could hardly believe how spiritually blind we had been before. It was an earthshaking spiritual experience for us.
Now from scripture, we have come to understand what just happened in both our lives; the Lord had come to us a second time, baptized us with His Spirit (Latter Rain) and healed our spiritual blindness. Now with “eyes that can see”, the Lord appeared to us from scripture for the very first time. We found the treasure mentioned in Julie’s prophecy from July 2004. We didn't even remember her receiving that "word" until I stumbled across it a few days later in an old email I had sent to a family member. When I reminded her of it and read it to her, she was filled with tears of joy.
The next day, Julie received another "word" from the Lord. It said:
"I will answer. I have shown you the truth in My Word. It is only revealed to those who seek it. It is by faith. It is for those who seek to know Me. I will bring all before My judgment, which is righteous and true. I will complete all things as I have committed to do by My Word. The things of the Spirit cannot be understood by man, even if I reveal it. It will be as I have spoken it. Some will hear and not believe. Some will hear and search but will desire the favor of men more than Me. Some will hear and seek understanding, and by faith I will show them. These will be few. These few will rejoice as one who has found great treasure! Keep seeking, remain faithful and I will give abundant blessings. You ask of Yahweh. I Am that I Am, come to men to show them the Light. Of the One, from and in the One when all things are completed as it was established before time. All will be brought to life in the One. It will not then be needful to show man God or give man His Spirit. Man cannot receive more because he cannot understand".
After our conversion, Julie received prophecies less and less. Below is a prophecy she received on March 5, 2008 and as it turned out, it was the last one she received.
"I am with you. I hear your prayers. You will know my Word when you are able to receive it. I am preparing you for my work. You have much to learn about yourself. You will show others my way. I will prepare you for the work I give you. I am doing my work in you. I am the Lord".
This verse applies as to why she ceased receiving "words":
1Cor 13:8 Charity never fails: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
Over the years since our conversion, the Lord has blessed us beyond anything we could have imagined.
And as we have been “freely given”, we now freely give to those who truly seek to know the Lord. This is our work the Lord has given us.
Behold
Well-Known Member
A person can have a strong desire for God and die a Muslim, a Pagan, a Christ Rejector.
RELIGION, is at its core, a strong desire for God.......that manifests as different Religions.
There are 2 Euro Pagans i know, who ive posted about on this Fourm, in the "prayer" section, and i love them both.. and they have a strong desire for God, but they see God as "nature".. as "the earth".... as the Creation, itself.
They have a sort of demonic "Pantheism" type of belief system.
God does not cause any of that TYPE< of "desire for God"., that is a wrong understanding, but both of these Pagans are searching for God with all their Heart... but not according to TRUTH. John 14:6
What God does, is ... He REVEALS, through the Holy Spirit ... = Christ as Savior.......and the person then commits faith in Christ or not.
God does not choose it for them. They are the BELIEVER, not God.
God is not looking for HIS Faith....>>He's looking for YOUR FAITH< in His SON., as YOUR Faith, is "counted by God as Righteousness" not God's Faith.
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Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
Well, that is not what I've learned about evil. We learn to avoid evil and do good.
