If one sins on purpose (intentionally or willfully - e.g. Heb 10:26), they are either not matured enough yet, or they are not truly saved!
The Wheel of Life
- Thread starter Netchaplain
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Dear Netchaplain,
This is not true. All mankind will be judged by the Lake of Fire (Christ's judgment). It is a necessary component of conversion.
Rev 19:20-21 shows when the Elect are judged in the Lake of Fire and Rev 20:15 shows when the rest of mankind are judged in the Lake of Fire.
Christ made this statement below because He longed to save mankind, not harm them:
Luke 12:49 “I came to send fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled!
Christ is not a monster who judges a person by tormenting them in literal fire for all eternity. This is a lie that comes from the apostate church.
When Christ judges a person in the Lake of Fire, He will not omit justice, mercy and faith during their judgment.
Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law: justice, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
Christ shows the "lost" mercy by giving them the Early Rain of the Spirit. With the Early Rain of the Spirit, the person will have faith which will make His pathway straight for Him to come to them a second time and pour out the Latter Rain. The person will then be born again as a child of God and be gathered up to heaven (spiritually speaking). The child of the devil (who they used to be) will remain in the Lake of Fire until he is destroyed. This is conversion. All mankind will experience it.
Finally, those who choose Christ, do so ONLY because Christ gave them the Spirit which caused them to accept Him as Lord:
1Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.
Before the foundation of the world, it was decided by God who would receive the Spirit and salvation during this age. Those Elect believers did not choose Christ (that implies "works" on their part). The truth is that Christ chose them.
John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
The Doctrine of Free Will is a lie of the apostate church. It is the primary cause that leads a person to commit the sin that leads to death (mixing works with faith).
That is true.
The believers who are not truly saved are the ones who have only been given the Early Rain of the Spirit. Since they have not been converted, they remain carnally minded and spiritually blind. These believers are apostate and are being spiritually governed by the spirit of anti-Christ rather than the Holy Spirit. They make up the nearly 2,000 different denominations/sects of Christianity in the world. They believe they are following Christ but they are not - they are following Satan who is masquerading as Christ.
2Cor 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
God has sent each of these believers a "strong delusion" so that they will believe the lie that Satan is Christ. They are utterly deceived.
2Thes 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
No one who receives the Early Rain of the Spirit can avoid their time in the apostate church. The strong delusion is too powerful.
These believers are "many".
The believers who are converted (the Elect) but still sin are children of God. Christ has not yet completed their chastising judgment to mature them into a perfect man. However, Christ will complete His work within them before they die. Their salvation is a certainty because it happens by the work of Christ who cannot fail.
These believers are "few".
Joe
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
You didn't comprehend my post, I just said that:
>> IF any man was not drawn to God (and let's reiterate Jesus' factoid that "no man can come to the Father unless He first draws them"),
Yet He draws ALL men to Himself. So And that is the point I made that man is without excuse ( Romans 1:20) And this oportunity existed since the beginning ( long before Christ's sacrifice), man had a choice to glorify God or not. Many of Adam and Eve's children ( before the flood even, had faith. You'll see them in heaven Seth, Enoch and then post Flood men of God, who lived by faith.
But most all at the time of the Flood were evil to the core.They suppressed the truth. We knew good and evil and had a choice which way to go.
This concept refutes total depravity; otherwise man would have that excuse.
Obviously, when one resists and rejects this drawing power, you are not surrendering yourselfto God, believing and following.
And then there is John 12:32 - He draws all men to himself.
I guess the real question is at what point in time does the Father say, I give this one to you. It appears in Romans 1 that he makes many efforts up to a point in a person's life, then let's them go, which would imply a decision made in real time. Then again, the Book of Life was written long ago - go figure. Foreknowledge is beyond my grasp.
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Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
To be fair, I think He does, otherwise Romans 1:20 could not state man is without excuse. The context of that passage claims that since the beginning man had knowledge of God, and His attributes were clearly seen in creation and within, and revealed to man; but man suppressed these truths, and exchanged for worldly things and/or distorted them.
Yes, I realize that with certain individuals, the Potter makes a lump of clay for dishonor - He has to. Evil is manifest through man and man becomes totally consumed by it sometimes. Judas was a prime example ... Hitler too and many others.
It would seem redundant for God to try to draw one to Christ when He already knows one will not choose to be right with Him; plus, everyone He draws comes to Him. He only draws those He knows will choose Him.
Dear Netchaplain,
The teachings of the New Covenant are written in Christ's spiritual language. That language uses "spirit" words that carry meanings that are different than what man's wisdom teaches. The spirit word "Lake of Fire" is a symbol and it means Christ's judgment. It is not a literal place of fire and it certainly is not "for ever and ever". That phrase "aion aion" should be translated as "ages of the ages" and this translation can be proven by its usage in other scripture. It was only translated incorrectly to support the apostate church's false teaching of an eternal hell.
Look at this verse below which uses "for ever and ever":
Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Here is the correct translation:
Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for the ages of the ages.
Now compare how long Christ's reign lasts in the scripture below:
1Cor 15:25 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
Clearly, Paul believed that Christ's reign will come to an end someday. And it will after all mankind has been converted into children of God and sin is no more. At this point, death will be defeated and Christ's reign will come to an end because Christ has completed the mission His Father gave Him to complete:
1John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.
It will then be testified to be true that Christ is truly mankind's Savior:
1Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; 4 who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Christ is not the failure that the apostate church makes Him out to be.
One last point: In this age, Christ is only bringing in the harvest of the chosen First Fruits. They are the heirs and will be the only ones found written in the Book of Life because they are the only ones who have been converted. Conversion requires judgment to remove the "chaff" (things that make them carnal) from within a person. In the final age, Christ will turn His attention to the rest of mankind (the main harvest) and start working to save them as well. The Lake of Fire is not is a place that is literally burning with fire. The torment the "lost" experience is mental torment. Also, since Christ is judging the "lost" by the Law, the penalty of their sin is death. But before they perish, Christ will have mercy upon them and give them the faith they need to be saved (Mat 23:23). Look at these scriptures that teach about Christ's judgment:
Isa 1:27 Zion shall be redeemed with judgment, and her converts with righteousness.
Psa 33:5 He loveth righteousness and judgment: the earth is full of the goodness of the LORD.
Jer 4:2 And thou shalt swear, The LORD liveth, in truth, in judgment, and in righteousness; and the nations shall bless themselves in him, and in him shall they glory.
Amos 5:24 But let judgment run down as waters (water is the symbol for the Holy Spirit), and righteousness as a mighty stream.
Jer 9:24 But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the LORD which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, saith the LORD.
Prov 28:5 Evil men (the apostate church is most certainly evil) understand not judgment: but they that seek the LORD understand all things.
Job 34:12 Yea, surely God will not do wickedly, neither will the Almighty pervert judgment.
Luke 12:59 I tell you, you will not get out (of the Lake of Fire) until you have paid the last penny" (carnality is completely destroyed).
Mat 21:31 Which of the two was obeying his father?" They replied, "The first, of course." Then Jesus explained his meaning: "I assure you, corrupt tax collectors and prostitutes will get into the Kingdom of God before you do (judgment is not eternal but is for the purpose of saving the lost, even those who crucified Christ).
1Cor 3:13 Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he (those in the Book of Life) shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss (not be an heir): but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire (Christ's judgment/Lake of Fire).
Mankind uses judgment for evil purposes. Christ uses judgment to make mankind righteous because His judgment cleanses mankind of the chaff that makes them evil. In this way, Christ loves His enemies and does good to them:
Luke 6:35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
Which God do you follow? The one (the true Christ) that is loving and merciful to His enemies or the one (Satan) that hates His enemies and torments them in literal fire for all eternity with no loving purpose to it?
Joe
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
It would seem that way, though in a broad spectrum, God's principles have permeated throughout this world. He has changed this world. Civilizations ( regardless of their religious beliefs) have been changed. These principles of truth and morality have been accepted and yet suppressed. In this way, all men have been drawn to His righteousness.
One of our purposes in life is to know good and evil and be able to distinguish between the two. Good draws us, does it not?
"... what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse," Rom. 1:19-20
We are drawn to these attributes externally and internally, mentally, socially, spiritually. This void we try to fill craves all the sustenance that God provides. The rain falls on unbelievers too.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
BLAH BLAH BLAH all this verbal methane and not one hint of Gods word to support your vomitus accusations. you are a fraud!
But to respond to one of your false accusations-- I will gladly compare my prayer life to yours!
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
So explain in half the word where the gospel and the name of Jesus has never been uttered, how they are drawn to Jesus?
So do you believe that mans "supposed free will" is more powerful than the sovereign will of god?
Once again there is not one place in Scripture where it says an unsaved man has the power to accept Christ in and of their own human narure.
We have differing comprehensions concerning the Lake of Fire, in that Scriptures use of it requires the literal use. For how could the damned be sent there if it's not literal. The entirety of God's condemnation completely rests on it being real. God bless!
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
I said drawn to God. And yes, Christ is God but prior to our knowledge of that ( for the first 4,000 years), did not God draw men to Himself?
As I said in my last post, good has a drawing power. We are attracted to things that are good and right, just as we get hungry for food, we seek to fill the void on our hearts. RIghteousness, morality, mercy, forgiveness, all of God's attributes, the beauty in creation, the mystery behind it all draws all men to seek answers, towards the truth, their Creator. This is why man is without excuse.
Of course not. I don't use the phrase. Man's will is not so free, but we are responsible. The only way we could know good is if we were also exposed to evil, hence the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil was put in the Garden. He knew what would happen, had to give us a choice. They call it the Fall of mankind, I think it was actually enlightening. Elohim did say, Behold, man has become like Us, knowing good and evil. (Gen. 3:22). That was part of the plan as I see it.
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
Dear Netchaplin,
Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
John clearly says that the vision is "signified". In other words, it uses spiritual symbols to teach its truth. All the New Covenant teachings are the same way. They use Christ's spiritual language which utilizes analogies, parables, "types" and prophecies to teach the spiritual truth of the New Covenant. And within those teachings, Christ uses "spirit" words which are similar to the spiritual symbols used by the book of Revelation.
Paul even said that He teaches the New Covenant truth in the same manner:
1Cor 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
1Cor 2:13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
To understand the meanings of spiritual symbols, Paul says to "compare spiritual things (words) with spiritual. In other words, we must look to other scripture and see how the symbol is used elsewhere and then with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, the meaning of the symbol can be discerned.
Almost none of the New Covenant teachings can be understood by a believer unless they have received the Latter Rain of the Spirit and have had their spiritual blindness healed. When the scales fell off of Paul eyes after He received the Latter Rain of the Spirit, it represented the healing of his spiritual blindness. Mark 8:15-25 teaches this same truth by "type".
Also, consider what this scripture says:
Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts (the converted Elect). 10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: 11 For with stammering lips (parables/analogies/types/prophecies) and another language (Christ's spiritual language) will he speak to this people. 12 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken (by Satan).
Only Elect believers who have been converted and have been weaned from the breasts have the spiritual ability to understand the teachings of Christ under the New Covenant. Spiritual "babes" who have only received the Early Rain of the Spirit will remain carnally minded and spiritually blind. In that condition, the truth of Christ will remain concealed from their understanding. Then because their house remains empty of the truth, Satan will come to them via the spirit of anti-Christ and deceive them. After Satan does, the believer will lose their salvation and enter the apostate church. Spiritually speaking, the believer is now "worse than the first" (Mat 12:43-45) and has become a "man of sin".
In contrast to the way the New Covenant is taught by Christ, the Old Covenant teachings are literal and written for carnal mankind to understand. That is why "babes" have no problem understanding Christ's physical work which He did under the Old Covenant - work which led Him to the cross. This is why Paul made the statement below to the spiritual "babes" in the Corinthian church:
1Cor 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
1Cor 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. 2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. 3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
The reason the Corinthian church could not receive the spiritual teachings of the New Covenant was because they had only received the Early Rain of the Spirit. They were still carnally minded and spiritually blind. They could receive the carnal teachings of "Christ and Him crucified" but the spiritual truths of the New Covenant remained veiled to them.
Below is an easy example on the spiritual teachings of Christ where Christ uses the spiritual symbol "sword".
Mat 26:52 Then said Jesus unto him, put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.
Does Christ really mean that if you use a sword to kill others, then you must likewise be killed with a sword? Literally, that is what He is saying. However, if we understand this verse literally, that statement can easily be proven to be false. There are countless examples of people who have used violence to kill others but then do not die from that same type of violence - it almost goes without saying.
Is Christ mistaken or is His message something else?
The spiritual language of the Word of God utilizes the Hebrew and Greek languages. However, Christ assigns meanings to the Hebrew and Greek words which are different from how they are commonly defined by mankind (1Cor 2:13).
In Matt 26:52, Christ is using the word SWORD to teach us a spiritual message. To understand what this spiritual symbol represents, we must look at how it is used elsewhere in scripture. In other words, we must compare spiritual things with spiritual.
Eph 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edge sword...
Rev 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp two-edged sword...
From the verses presented above, it is easy to understand that the spiritual word SWORD represents the Word of God who is Christ.
Christ’s hidden spiritual point He is making in Matt 26:52 is that all who take up the Sword (those who are given the Early Rain of the Spirit), must perish (death of the carnal nature) by the Sword. This death is a necessary part of the conversion process which happens when the Word of God (Christ, the Sword) comes to a person and gives them the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and the Baptism of Fire (judgment of the carnal nature):
Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit, and with Fire.
This same conversion event is what the Apostles experienced on the Day of Pentecost:
Acts 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. 2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. 3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of FIRE, and it sat upon each of them. 4 And they were all filled with the HOLY SPIRIT, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
In the spiritual language of Christ, the Apostles took up the Sword and then died by the SWORD.
As I have been saying in my other posts, salvation and the knowledge of the truth is reserved for ONLY the converted Elect during this age. All others will try to understand the teachings of Christ but will do so only in a carnal way (as you are doing). When they do this, they will fall backward, be broken, and snared and taken by Satan.
CONTINUED ON THE NEXT POST...
CONTINUED FROM THE PREVIOUS POST...
One final point: the story of the Tower of Babel is a physical "type" which teaches a spiritual truth. This "type" is fulfilled by the nearly 2,000 different denominations/sects of the apostate church in this world - all of which teach their own versions of the truth. Their language is "confused" and they have become places where the "blind led the blind":
Luke 6:39 And he spake a parable unto them, Can the blind lead the blind? shall they not both fall into the ditch?
But after a believer receives the Latter Rain of the Spirit, they will then be able to come unto the UNITY of the truth:
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man (converted), unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14 That we henceforth be no more babes (unconverted), tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
Your belief that every person has the ability to understand the Gospel of Christ and the opportunity to be saved in this age is false.
Christ is the Savior and He alone does all the work of saving a person - and He decides when that will happen. In this age, Christ is only saving the Elect who were chosen from the foundation of the world. In the final age, the balance of mankind will be saved. No amount of supposed "free will" ability can change this truth.
Joe
I think I'm getting closer to what you mean, but not sure what is meant by "drawn to good," unless you mean drawn to what is good.
It's my belief that only those who desire to be saved will understand the Gospel. "Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual (1Co 2:13).
Dear Netchaplain,
You said:
It's my belief that only those who desire to be saved will understand the Gospel.
There is no scripture which supports your comment above. The verse you posted does not support it in any way.
The false gospel that is taught in this world is VERY pleasing to mankind's carnal nature. For that reason, it is pleasant to the taste and easy to consume.
Christ mentions this truth here:
Luke 5:39 No man also having drunk old wine (Old Covenant based on man's works) straightway desireth new (New Covenant based on Christ's works): for he saith, The old is better.
The Old Covenant is religion and is Satan's crooked way. It is man's attempt to make themselves acceptable to God. Satan's false gospel mixes the Old and New Wines together, whereby causing the believer to try and serve two masters (Satan & Christ).
Prov 23:29 Who hath woe? who hath sorrow? who hath contentions? who hath babbling? who hath wounds without cause? who hath redness of eyes? 30 They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine. 31 Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his color in the cup, when it moveth itself aright. 32 At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder. 33 Thine eyes shall behold strange women, and thine heart shall utter perverse things.
Satan's false gospel of mixing works with faith cannot save anyone.
The true Gospel of Christ is very different. It is based solely on the works of Christ that He does within a person and Christ is the one who decides when He will do those works. Mankind's carnal mind hates not having control over their own salvation or the truth that they cannot can make themselves more worthy of their salvation than the next person. The false gospel teaches that a person must do certain things (originating from their own free will ability) to be saved. It teaches that their salvation happens because they were smarter, wiser or just less evil than those who reject Christ. From this false understanding, they believe that those who remain unsaved until they die have no one to blame but themselves. This belief is heresy and is filthy rags. Upon the resurrection of these apostate believers, they will find that they will receive their portion with the unbelievers in the Lake of Fire (Luke 12:46). They will not be heirs of the promises made to Abraham.
I wanted to explain the scripture below in my earlier post but it was getting too long. I will quickly explain it here.
This is where Christ explains how a new believer becomes apostate.
Mat 12:43 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none. 44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished. 45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself SEVEN other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.
The spiritual symbol of an unclean spirit represents a spirit which teaches Satan's false truth through lies and deceptions.
Since a new believer remains spiritually blind (Mark 8:21-25) after receiving the Early Rain of the Spirit, they cannot replace their worldly false beliefs with the truth of Christ. ONE unclean spirit leaves but comes back with SEVEN more. The number "seven" represents perfection. In this case, the number seven represents the perfection of Satan's lies/deceptions which come to a believer by the indwelling of the spirit of anti-Christ. Now, instead of ONE unclean spirit within the believer, they now have EIGHT. The number eight is a spiritual symbol which represents a new spiritual condition. In this case, the new spiritual condition is worse than the first.
This "worse than the first" spiritual condition causes the believer to become a False Prophet, a Man of Sin, a Minister of Satan and a Seven Headed Beast with Ten Horns & Crowns.
If you are still not able to receive what I have been presenting, I will move onto another thread (as the Lord wills).
Joe
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
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