The Way/Theosis/entire sanctification.
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Calling it entire sanctification, l think that we fall back to being sanctified. That is to say that we can not sin deliberately but unable to avoid unintentional sin.
I think now that it was the stage of being discipled after being called by God. The EFF call it Purgation, the period when we are trained in holiness or obedience
This idea of not being able to stay in it till maturity is the stage before we become pillars in the temple of going in and out no more. Sorry no ref till l get my pc back tomorrow hopefully. And thanks for prayers, the vertigo has gone!
To be clear, when you say Entire Sanctification, you mean the same thing as when you say, Theosis, is that correct?
Much love!
If what you said was true, then there would not be thousands of denominations. I agree that scripture interprets scripture, but the theology we are drawn to has a huge impact on us. I saw that so clearly when my theology did a flip when seeing Calvinism was ignoring so many texts. We become blind to those scriptures that do not serve us. The early church would not accept anyone who was not in Theosis and having a clear lens in which to interpret.
Well sort of. As brother Johann has pointed out the early church had an understanding about sharing in the energies of God. Being partakers of the divine nature, not expected in western doctors of theology.
Not necessarily. People have many different reasons for coming to different conclusions.
That's assuming we all have a cognitive bias. What if I'm not drawn to a particular theology? What if I'm simply drawn to truth? If I don't care what it is, so long as it's the truth?
I never was Calvinist. I've always seen that such teachings are not true to Scripture.
Many are blind to many things for many reasons. But I still come back to, Does the Bible say this or not? I believe the teachings are there, or they are not, and commentary from someone - anyone - won't make a doctrine appear in the Bible if it doesn't. So I'm all about the Bible.
Much love!
Partakers of Christ, Partakers of the divine nature, these I recognize, I understand. Sharing in the energies of God, this phrase has no meaning for me. It reminds me more of that we are working out what He is working - ergon - into us.
That's my complaint about non-biblical terminology, we have to know what is being said. Theosis that ends, is it still theosis? The Energies of God, is that His working in you personally? Is it that you somehow have a stronger spirit being plugged into the power supply?
Partakers of the divine nature . . . I share in His nature, the properties of being that make Him Who He is. I don't become Him, or God, but I share in his nature, so I have inclinations and values and abilities that become like His, patterned after Him, this I can understand, and there is much Scripture that speaks this way.
Much love!
No theology is perfect, they all have inconsistencies say theologians, at varying degrees, but l believe that if we do a pick and mix, which is what many do these days and may l say without offending, the method you lay out, we are using ourselves as the authority, which is what Protestantism is about ie the boy on the plough with a Bible in his hand. We also often fail to see our own inconsistencies.
We have just seen how two interpretations of born again can change everything.
A lot of the early writings were apologetics, to keep out the heresies that were forcing themselves into the church. We have to remember this. So they had to use non biblical terminology at times to differentiate the ideas disputed. They made clear that the energies of God were separate from His essence. You cannot understand them without keeping this in mind.
Yes, I agree, however, I think the Bible in it's straightfoward reading settles that question. And I'm not sure that it's a different interpretation of born again, but rather when it happens, and how the person is affected by their rebirth. I think different ideas of what is "corrupt flesh" have much to do with our disagreements.
Personally I feel all of these matters are plainly taught in the Bible, so that we don't really have to rely on some interpretation beyond the normal uses of the words, the context, so forth. I believe we find the answers that unify us by taking the Bible at it's most basic level. Naturally accounting for metaphors etc.
I believe if we ARE to find Scripturally authorative answers, that is the one and only way it happens. And I believe that is exactly God's intent. That we can read the Bible and be taught from Him, as well as other teachers. But those who search for themselves are honored.
Much love!
That which transforms man so that he can partake in the nature of God. I will give it more thought but that's off the top of my head. In my understanding the transformation is the reception of the new nature not a gradual moral improvement. How do you explain the difference between the average believer today and those in the NT?
Christ in you is your hope of glory, that is, Christ being in you is why you expect glory.
2 Corinthians 4:6-7 KJV
6) For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
7) But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.
2 Corinthians 4:10 KJV
Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.
Romans 8:5-12 KJV
5) For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6) For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7) Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8) So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9) But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10) And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11) But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12) Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
I would say that rather than "the energies of God", it is by the Spirit Who lives in us, the Spirit of Christ, that is, the Holy Spirit.
Much love!
Dan Clarkston
Well-Known Member
A simple and pure faith. We've had century after century to dissect and debate and defuse doctrine after doctrine until the most common question seems, "Is that what it really says?"
Everytime someone claims that a passage is really a metaphor, or is really a symbol, or something, when the Bible doesn't say it that way, and where the Bible doesn't define the supposed symbol, or metaphor, or whatever it is, then they have to define it from themselves, and not the written word.
Now, we can say, the Holy Spirit is giving spiritual interpretation. I would argue, this is why we have thousands of interpretations of the Bible. Not because the text is uncertain, but because many interpret in their "spiritual understanding", only, those spiritual understandings never seem to completely agree.
The more passages that are interpretted this way, the more variations in theology there will be, as each has their own "interpretation".
I think the early Christians heard the message of the Gospel, witnessed the Apostle's power from God, and received the Gospel with a pure faith, seeing the power of God, then experiencing rebirth, and they believed. Like when the Israelites crossed the Red Sea. Afterward, we're told, And they believed God, and His servant Moses. I'm sure they did!!
I think the Apostles told the believers the same things they wrote down for us, and that the Christians accepted their teachings, leading them into knowing God, and being transformed by God through that knowing.
Much love!
I'm posting some passages relating to our transformation. If there are others you think of please post them, so we can look at them.
Romans 12:1-2 KJV
1) I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
2) And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
Colossians 3:5-14 KJV
5) Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
6) For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
7) In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.
8) But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.
9) Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
10) And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
11) Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
12) Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
13) Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.
14) And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.
Ephesians 4:17-32 KJV
17) This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,
18) Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
19) Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
20) But ye have not so learned Christ;
21) If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
22) That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
23) And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24) And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
25) Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.
26) Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:
27) Neither give place to the devil.
28) Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.
29) Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.
30) And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
31) Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:
32) And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.
2 Corinthians 3:15-18 KJV
15) But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
16) Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
17) Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
18) But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
2 Corinthians 4:6-11 KJV
6) For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
7) But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.
8) We are troubled on every side, yet not distressed; we are perplexed, but not in despair;
9) Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed;
10) Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.
11) For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.
2 Corinthians 4:17 KJV
For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory;
1 Peter 1:13-16 KJV
13) Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
14) As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:
15) But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
16) Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
James 1:2-4 KJV
2) My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
3) Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.
4) But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.
Much love!
Could it be the unveiling of the new nature that is within us....? and that would seem to fit with Christ in us the hope of glory....? Tearing down/putting to death the old man so that the new man is revealed? Why our corn of wheat must die to produce a crop. The daystar arising in our hearts?
Romans 6:3-7 KJV
3) Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4) Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5) For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6) Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7) For he that is dead is freed from sin.
2 Corinthians 4:10 KJV
Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.
We are baptized into Christ's death, that we may share in His life.
We bear in our body the dying of Jesus, so His life may be manifested in our bodies.
I would agree with your wording, unveiling the new nature within us. More specifically, God's nature in which image we've been remade.
Much love!
