The Unity and Division threads - Unified to one topic - Divided by links

[St. SteVen]

Doctrinolatry - tribalism and division in the Body of Christ​

A follow-up to my Bibliolatry topic. Doctrine becomes an idol when it is used to support tribalism and cause division in the Body of Christ. Since doctrinal unity is impossible, allowing others to hold their own doctrinal opinions may be the only way to prevent division. ]

The tyranny of doctrinal unity - "Join or die."​

...follow-up to the two previous topics: https://www.christianityboard.com/t...r-your-own-beliefs-in-the-cause-of-doctrinal-unity.56191/ https://www.christianityboard.com/threads/unity-of-the-faith-at-what-cost.56095/ - Do you have the right to allow the Holy Spirit to...

Would you surrender your own beliefs in the cause of doctrinal unity?​

This is a follow-up to the previous topic: Unity of the faith - at what cost? Link below. Probably the biggest roadblock to Christian doctrinal unity is holding on to the freedom we have to determine our own beliefs. Would you surrender your own beliefs in the cause of Christian doctrinal...

Unity of the faith - at what cost?​

The call for doctrinal unity has gone out across the centuries. Are we there yet? (not by a long shot) Where is the problem? Perhaps it is in the assumption that the unity of the faith is doctrinal unity. - Can there be unity of the faith that overlooks doctrinal differences? - Does the Body...

Unity in exclusivity is mere tribalism - Nothing special there​

Much discussion in another area of the forum about UNITY and what it means, and doesn't mean. Many seek doctrinal unity. But we discovered that they haven't accounted for the necessary compromise to make that happen. What they really want is for everyone to JOIN their doctrinal tribe so...

Embracing Doctrinal Diversity - Unity in diversity​

In the same way we have learned to understand and respect cultural diversity, we should learn to understand and respect doctrinal diversity. Can Catholics and Protestants respect one another despite our doctrinal differences? (yes) What about Baptists and Pentecostals? (yes) You name it. How...

The Hell Doctrine - No doctrinal unity​

What's your view on the final judgement? Here are the three popular biblical views: 1) Damnationism 2) Annihilationism 3) Universalism All three views are biblical, all three views are in DIRECT conflict.


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[Windmill Charge]

You are assuming that the only unity that matters is a visual outward unity, so long as people don't discuss deeply what they believe we can have a show of unity.
But when beliefs are as divergent as Catholic view of salvation by faith and works against protestant justification by faith alone, do you really think God will be fooled by such a false unity.

As for atheists who whinge about Christian disunity.
Would they throw away there atheism and join such a church?

The church is not a social, religious, political organisation. Oh there is that man made side to it, but the church that matters is the invisible body of living and in glory belivers.

 

[St. SteVen]

You are assuming that the only unity that matters is a visual outward unity, so long as people don't discuss deeply what they believe we can have a show of unity.

Thanks for weighing in on this. No. That's not what I mean at all.

I think unity comes when we recognize there will be differences and don't use that to CAUSE division.

Embracing Doctrinal Diversity - Unity in diversity​

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[Windmill Charge]

Thanks for weighing in on this. No. That's not what I mean at all.

I think unity comes when we recognize there will be differences and don't use that to CAUSE division.

Embracing Doctrinal Diversity - Unity in diversity​

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Except one says you are not saved because you do or haven't.........
The other says you are not saved because you have done this or that.....
Where is the unity?

 

[Rita]

You can be United as a group of people when mature enough to know there are differences and determine to get along with one another. It doesn’t mean you cannot discuss those difference but choose to discuss them without throwing insults and accusations at one another.

 

[St. SteVen]

Except one says you are not saved because you do or haven't.........
The other says you are not saved because you have done this or that.....
Where is the unity?

I like the response from @Rita in post #5. Thanks, Rita! Well said.

Differences = held opinions
Unity = accepting others despite differences

We tend to fight over differences of opinion. This is where division comes from.
If we can discuss differences and accept others, this is where unity comes from.

You might say that someone's opinion is unbiblical, therefore should not be acceptable.
But typically they had biblical reasons for their opinion, therefore it was NOT unbiblical.

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[St. SteVen]

From the OP of

Unity of the faith - at what cost?

The call for doctrinal unity has gone out across the centuries. Are we there yet? (not by a long shot) Where is the problem? Perhaps it is in the assumption that the unity of the faith is doctrinal unity. - Can there be unity of the faith that overlooks doctrinal differences? - Does the Body...

www.christianityboard.com

The call for doctrinal unity has gone out across the centuries.
Are we there yet? (not by a long shot)

Where is the problem?
Perhaps it is in the assumption that the unity of the faith is doctrinal unity.

- Can there be unity of the faith that overlooks doctrinal differences?
- Does the Body of Christ have room for differing views on doctrine?
- What would the church look like if we didn't label differing views as BAD or FALSE doctrines?
- Is a differing view unbiblical simply because it doesn't agree with our own biblical position?
- Can two opposing views BOTH be biblical, if biblical evidence to support each view is given?

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[St. SteVen]

What Unity looks like. (or should)

--- PARODY ---

Forum member #1: That's NOT what the Bible says!
Forum member #2: Yes it is! You have it wrong!
Forum member #1: Who should I believe, God or you?
Forum member #2: Back at you!
Forum member #1: What's your testimony?
Forum member #2: Say what?
Forum member #1: What has God done in your life?
Forum member #2: Well... when I was...
Forum member #1: Wow. That's wonderful, thanks brother!
Forum member #2: We should talk about this more often. Your turn...

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[Windmill Charge]

We tend to fight over differences of opinion

But we are not talking about mere opinions but about what people actually believe and base their lives upon.

Would you be happy if on Sunday a preacher taught you about the prosperity gospel, that you can have it all now, if you only have faith.
Then the next Sunday a Liberal preacher teaches about a gay Jesus, how we are to accept the lgtb lifestyle and not to promote marriage between a man and a women.
Then you have a hyper calvinist telling you that unless you believe in Calvin's 5 points you cannot be a Christian.
Then as doctrine is unimportant an Athiest occupies the pulpit telling you there is no Gon, followed by a Muslim telling God is one etc etc.

What people believes is important.

 

[St. SteVen]

But we are not talking about mere opinions but about what people actually believe and base their lives upon.

People actually believe and base their lives upon opinions. Others actually believe and base their lives upon different opinions.

Would you be happy if on Sunday a preacher taught you about the prosperity gospel, that you can have it all now, if you only have faith.
Then the next Sunday a Liberal preacher teaches about a gay Jesus, how we are to accept the lgtb lifestyle and not to promote marriage between a man and a women.
Then you have a hyper calvinist telling you that unless you believe in Calvin's 5 points you cannot be a Christian.
Then as doctrine is unimportant an Athiest occupies the pulpit telling you there is no Gon, followed by a Muslim telling God is one etc etc.

That's quite a list. If two contradictory positions are both biblically based, which one is right?
The Calvinist can back up his claims with scripture, right? Same with the prosperity gospel.
Even those who defend LGBTQ use the Bible.

What people believes is important.

No one is saved by doctrine. Only God can save.

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[Windmill Charge]

No one is saved by doctrine. Only God can save.

Agreed, but it is because of doctrine that preachers preach what they preach.
No one becomes a Christian in isolation, they have contact, conversations with so eone whose words are used by God.
You would have no agreed core issues, every view is acceptable, which is not biblical.
Jesus did not accept the views of those who opposed him, neither did any of the apostles.

 

[St. SteVen]

Agreed, but it is because of doctrine that preachers preach what they preach.
No one becomes a Christian in isolation, they have contact, conversations with so eone whose words are used by God.
You would have no agreed core issues, every view is acceptable, which is not biblical.
Jesus did not accept the views of those who opposed him, neither did any of the apostles.

There is still no consensus today.

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[Windmill Charge]

There is still no consensus today.

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Actually there is on the core truths of Christianity.

But you have not faced the enormous problem of accepting every and any view with out scrutiny.

Else where you have asked about taking a stand and leaving your church.
OK your church is now welcoming prosperity gospel preachers and Mormon preachers into the pulpit.

How do you react?

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
There is still no consensus today.

Actually there is on the core truths of Christianity.

That's what the creeds are for. But still no consensus on even what the creeds mean.

I was raised in a Protestant nondenominational evangelical community church.
Reciting the creeds wasn't part of our tradition. One Sunday someone thought we should.
Members were uncomfortable with pledging allegiance to the catholic church and with Jesus descending into hell. - LOL

But you have not faced the enormous problem of accepting every and any view with out scrutiny.

I'm not saying without scrutiny. Accept the person, adopt your own views.

Else where you have asked about taking a stand and leaving your church.
OK your church is now welcoming prosperity gospel preachers and Mormon preachers into the pulpit.

How do you react?

Open mic night is for a comedy club. - LOL

What you are describing doesn't happen over night.
There would have to be a church culture to accept that much diversity in the pulpit.

You seem to be saying that your two examples would not be welcome in your church pulpit.
Do you really think that a prosperity gospel preacher and a Mormon preacher would have nothing of value to say to the church?
The assumption seems to be that they would come with the mission of converting the congregation? ???

Would the proper reaction be to leave the church?
Like I said, this doesn't happen over night. More context is needed.

A church that lets anyone in the pulpit is a church that lets anyone in the pulpit.
In that context it wouldn't be unusual. Why would there be an objection?

If it did happen over night, there would be questions. If members didn't like the answers, they may want to leave.

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[Windmill Charge]

You seem to be saying that your two examples would not be welcome in your church pulpit.

They most definitely would not be welcome to preach, teach or evangelise in the church I attend.

There is such a thing as the truth and such a thing as a false message.
Unfortunately deserning the truth takes an education in the truth.
You might be happy for false teachers to influence people in the church you attend I'm not.

 

[St. SteVen]

They most definitely would not be welcome to preach, teach or evangelise in the church I attend.

Do you think they would let me take the pulpit?

There is such a thing as the truth and such a thing as a false message.
Unfortunately deserning the truth takes an education in the truth.

Discernment through education? I thought discernment was spiritual and education was academic.
Do you not operate in spiritual gifts at your church? What you are calling discernment is really indoctrination. (brainwashing)

"Christians don't know what they believe." - until they are brainwashed

Why do we need the church to TELL us what we believe? Must we surrender our right to our own beliefs to be a part of the church? There is even a famous book titled: Know What You Believe Which is there to inform you of what you haven't a clue about. Brainwashing, obviously. Not to say...

www.christianityboard.com

You might be happy for false teachers to influence people in the church you attend I'm not.

You created a hypothetical situation that would not happen at my church.
But it could be part of the culture of another church. Typically anyone invited to speak somewhere would bring an appropriate message.

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[amadeus]

@St. SteVen You are saying that you want it to work, this thing of all "believers" coming together, meeting in spite of some even radical beliefs based on the Bible.

My belief is that men cannot do it. Did they not try at Babel where God seeing their efforts confused their languages making them start again from scratch?

Now for a new a better Way!

There is and will be a Body of Christ with Jesus as the Head. The Head needs to lead, but our head, the heads of carnal men need to be gone. I may have a vision what you also see as men coming together as One Body, but I am not Jesus. You are not Jesus. No one else is Jesus.

Let us go back to what Jesus said here:

Mt 6:33

But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

And also...

Eph 5:23

For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church:...

Head of the Body of Christ

"The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head." Matt 8:20

What I believe is that Jesus is, or is to be, the Head of the whole Body of Christ. He was speaking about that in Matt 8:20. Now the Head is ready... that is Jesus is ready, but his words speak of his Body [you and me and all the rest who are to be] were/are not ready. As we connect with the Head via the Holy Spirit, we are growing [ or we should be], getting ready to be our prepared part [made without hands] of the Body of Christ. People who do not hear from the Head are then where?

Consider the coordination of the natural body of a healthy man of flesh. A piano player or a ditch digger learns to use both hands for the best result... but the coordination requires a connection to and subordination to the head/brain. The Body of Christ is to be like that, but on spiritual level. The Holy Spirit is the connection. We can only see what God has shown or is showing us as we connect with Him and perhaps as we read our Bibles being led by the Holy Spirit.

When Jesus was walking planet Earth as a man, he certainly had no place [no Body] on which to support [lay] his head [He being the Head] because the Way was not yet open for the parts of the Body to be formed and connected and brought together in subjection. Jesus and the Holy Spirit have made all of this possible. But you and me and all the rest who are to be] need to be completely ready. We cannot get ourselves ready alone. God can and will do it, but we must open the way for Him and keep it open until the work in us is finished. Anyone who does not allow God will simply Not be a part.

"For the body is not one member, but many." I Cor 12:14

"But now are they many members, yet but one body." I Cor 12:20

"That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another." I Cor 12:25

"But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love." Eph 4:15-16

"And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence." Col 1:18

Can we with our best efforts using our carnal brains accomplish God's whole purpose? Well, we can certainly choose to allow ourselves to be led by the Holy Spirit to be what He wants to be in the Body of Christ. Let us neither fall behind nor move ahead of Him as He leads.

 

[St. SteVen]

@St. SteVen You are saying that you want it to work, this thing of all "believers" coming together, meeting in spite of some even radical beliefs based on the Bible.

No. That's not what I am saying. Every church has their own culture. They determine what is appropriate and what isn't.

But in general we should respect each other no matter our differences,

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[amadeus]

No. That's not what I am saying. Every church has their own culture. They determine what is appropriate and what isn't.

But in general we should respect each other no matter our differences,

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Yes, we should, but most apparently believers have not done so up until now. Compromise is not an option. People must follow Jesus and be led by Him into the real unity of the Body of Christ.

 

[St. SteVen]

Yes, we should, but most apparently believers have not done so up until now. Compromise is not an option. People must follow Jesus and be led by Him into the real unity of the Body of Christ.

I have studied/written extensively about this subject. Six or seven topic links in the OP.

Doctrinal unity doesn't exist and never will. IMHO
Here's the most important question that I discovered about this subject. Which became a topic title.

Would you surrender your own beliefs in the cause of doctrinal unity?​

The resounding response from posters on the topic was, "NO WAY!"
Although, I suppose that is the Protestant response.

The core concern is WHO decides what set of doctrines EVERYONE will align under.
The knee-jerk reaction is to say, "The Bible." Problem being, there is no consensus on what the Bible means.

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