The two witnessss

[Douggg]

Oh, now I see the problem-- You're looking in the wrong place, not considering the whole word of God!

The entire word of God is connected to every part.

No, the problem is not with me. The problem is with you Summarize what is written in the text of Revelation 11:3-12 about the two witnesses.

Revelation 11:
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

 

[FaithWillDo]

That is all very scholarly of you--good study, I'm sure! But it is God who decides when and where previous scripture is applicable and fulfilled.

I was not loosely name-dropping out of context, but proclaiming the truth from God.

Dear ScottA,
Yes, Christ decides when and where previous scripture is applicable and fulfilled because He is the Word of God. Scripture is a written witness of Him. However, Christ will heal the spiritual blindness of His Elect when He pours out the Latter Rain of the Spirit upon them. With the Spirit of Truth, they will be guided into all truth. This is the only way a person can know the full truth of Christ's spiritual teachings of the New Covenant.

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

The Spirit of Truth is the Latter Rain of the Spirit - it is also called the Baptism of the Spirit. It comes with strength and power and will heal the spiritual blindness of the person.

The Spirit of Faith is the Early Rain of the Spirit and it is given in "measure" (a small amount). It will leave the new believer (a babe) spiritually blind and carnally minded. In this weak condition, the babe will be deceived by Satan and become apostate. No new believer can avoid it happening to them.

Here are a few scriptures that teach about differences between the Early and Latter Rains:

Joel 2:23 Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in Jehovah your God; for he giveth you the former rain (Early Rain) in just measure, and he causeth to come down for you the rain, the former rain and the latter rain, in the first month.

Deu 32:2 My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain (Early Rain) upon the tender herb (babes), and as the showers (Latter Rain) upon the grass (converted Elect):

Job 37:6 For he saith to the snow, Be thou on the earth; likewise to the small rain (Early Rain), and to the great rain (Latter Rain) of his strength.

Jer 3:3 Therefore the showers have been withholden, and there hath been no Latter Rain; and thou hadst a whore's forehead, thou refusedst to be ashamed (this is an apostate believer who only has the Early Rain).

1Sam 12:17 Is it not wheat harvest to day? (Day of salvation) I will call unto the LORD, and he shall send thunder (voice of God) and RAIN (the Latter Rain/Spirit of Truth); that ye may perceive and see (spiritual blindness healed) that your wickedness is great (have become apostate), which ye have done in the sight of the LORD, in asking you a king.

Jer 33:3 ‘Call to Me, and I will answer you (Luke 11:9-13 applies), and show you great and mighty things, which you do not know.’

Psa 68:9 Thou, O God, didst send a plentiful RAIN (Latter Rain), whereby thou didst confirm thine inheritance (heir of Abraham), when it was weary (in an apostate condition).

After Paul received the Spirit of Faith (Early Rain) on the Damascus Road, Paul called Jesus "Lord" and said "what do you want me to do?" Paul's blindness represented that he still remained spiritually blind, and as a result, Paul could not eat or drink for the three days before Christ came to him a second time (like a Bridegroom returning for his bride). Only after Paul received the Spirit of Truth (Latter Rain) could Paul begin consuming the spiritual truth of the New Covenant.

Paul's blindness is a "type" for the spiritual blindness that all new believers have. Babes can understand and have faith in the physical work that Christ did under the Old Covenant (Christ and Him crucified, 1Cor 2:2) but the spiritual work that Christ is now doing under the New Covenant will largely remain veiled from their understanding.

Isa 28:9-12, Mat 12:43-45 and Mark 8:15-25 also teach this truth.

Only after a believer receives the Latter Rain of the Spirit will they be able to learn the spiritual truths of the New Covenant. For this reason, babes, who have only been given the Early Rain of the Spirit, will be deceived by Satan and will become apostate. This portion of the pathway to salvation which goes through the apostate church will be travelled by all the Elect (since the death of Paul). It cannot be avoided. For that reason, after Christ "comes again" and gives the person the Latter Rain of the Spirit, they will "perceive and see that their wickedness is great".

That truth is what Christ is teaching in the verse below, too:

Mat 24:15 When (not "if") ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place (God's Temple/the believer), (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

As you said, Christ is the one who decides "when and where previous scripture is applicable and fulfilled" but Christ shares this knowledge with His Elect upon their conversion. Only the converted Elect are "guided into all truth". For everyone else, Christ will remain veiled.

Joe

 

[ScottA]

No, the problem is not with me. The problem is with you Summarize what is written in the text of Revelation 11:3-12 about the two witnesses.

Revelation 11:
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

Yes, from God, speaking plainly, I have summarized it.

 

[ScottA]

Dear ScottA,
Yes, Christ decides when and where previous scripture is applicable and fulfilled because He is the Word of God. Scripture is a written witness of Him. However, Christ will heal the spiritual blindness of His Elect when He pours out the Latter Rain of the Spirit upon them. With the Spirit of Truth, they will be guided into all truth. This is the only way a person can know the full truth of Christ's spiritual teachings of the New Covenant.

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

The Spirit of Truth is the Latter Rain of the Spirit - it is also called the Baptism of the Spirit. It comes with strength and power and will heal the spiritual blindness of the person.

The Spirit of Faith is the Early Rain of the Spirit and it is given in "measure" (a small amount). It will leave the new believer (a babe) spiritually blind and carnally minded. In this weak condition, the babe will be deceived by Satan and become apostate. No new believer can avoid it happening to them.

Here are a few scriptures that teach about differences between the Early and Latter Rains:

Joel 2:23 Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in Jehovah your God; for he giveth you the former rain (Early Rain) in just measure, and he causeth to come down for you the rain, the former rain and the latter rain, in the first month.

Deu 32:2 My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain (Early Rain) upon the tender herb (babes), and as the showers (Latter Rain) upon the grass (converted Elect):

Job 37:6 For he saith to the snow, Be thou on the earth; likewise to the small rain (Early Rain), and to the great rain (Latter Rain) of his strength.

Jer 3:3 Therefore the showers have been withholden, and there hath been no Latter Rain; and thou hadst a whore's forehead, thou refusedst to be ashamed (this is an apostate believer who only has the Early Rain).

1Sam 12:17 Is it not wheat harvest to day? (Day of salvation) I will call unto the LORD, and he shall send thunder (voice of God) and RAIN (the Latter Rain/Spirit of Truth); that ye may perceive and see (spiritual blindness healed) that your wickedness is great (have become apostate), which ye have done in the sight of the LORD, in asking you a king.

Jer 33:3 ‘Call to Me, and I will answer you (Luke 11:9-13 applies), and show you great and mighty things, which you do not know.’

Psa 68:9 Thou, O God, didst send a plentiful RAIN (Latter Rain), whereby thou didst confirm thine inheritance (heir of Abraham), when it was weary (in an apostate condition).

After Paul received the Spirit of Faith (Early Rain) on the Damascus Road, Paul called Jesus "Lord" and said "what do you want me to do?" Paul's blindness represented that he still remained spiritually blind, and as a result, Paul could not eat or drink for the three days before Christ came to him a second time (like a Bridegroom returning for his bride). Only after Paul received the Spirit of Truth (Latter Rain) could Paul begin consuming the spiritual truth of the New Covenant.

Paul's blindness is a "type" for the spiritual blindness that all new believers have. Babes can understand and have faith in the physical work that Christ did under the Old Covenant (Christ and Him crucified, 1Cor 2:2) but the spiritual work that Christ is now doing under the New Covenant will largely remain veiled from their understanding.

Isa 28:9-12, Mat 12:43-45 and Mark 8:15-25 also teach this truth.

Only after a believer receives the Latter Rain of the Spirit will they be able to learn the spiritual truths of the New Covenant. For this reason, babes, who have only been given the Early Rain of the Spirit, will be deceived by Satan and will become apostate. This portion of the pathway to salvation which goes through the apostate church will be travelled by all the Elect (since the death of Paul). It cannot be avoided. For that reason, after Christ "comes again" and gives the person the Latter Rain of the Spirit, they will "perceive and see that their wickedness is great".

That truth is what Christ is teaching in the verse below, too:

Mat 24:15 When (not "if") ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place (God's Temple/the believer), (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

As you said, Christ is the one who decides "when and where previous scripture is applicable and fulfilled" but Christ shares this knowledge with His Elect upon their conversion. Only the converted Elect are "guided into all truth". For everyone else, Christ will remain veiled.

Joe

You have all the information. Why then from behind the veil, do you hinder the latter rain by which I have spoken to you?

 

[Earburner]

No, the problem is not with me. The problem is with you Summarize what is written in the text of Revelation 11:3-12 about the two witnesses.

Revelation 11:
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

As you should know, God from His Eternity, who speaks in the Past, Present and the Future, all at the same time, is the Author of the book of Revelation, of which is highly "signified" in symbolism. Rev. 1:1.
Therefore not all the words, phrases and sentences are to be understood verbatim.

Secondly, John recieved his visions over time, and not necessarily in order. He did not receive it all in one day, nor did he write it all out in one day. One must consider that he only had parchment papers to write on, and was very limited by pen and ink, whatever that was.

 

[Douggg]

Yes, from God, speaking plainly, I have summarized it.

No, you did not. And you certainly don't speak for God.

The summary of Revelation 11:3-12 about the two witnesses is that the two witnesses are two individual humans, who will prophesy and testify for 1260 days. Then be killed and their bodies lay dead in the streets of Jerusalem for 3 1/2 days. Then will be brought back to life and ascend up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies look on.

 

[Douggg]

As you should know, God from His Eternity, who speaks in the Past, Present and the Future, all at the same time, is the Author of the book of Revelation, of which is highly "signified" in symbolism. Rev. 1:1.
Therefore not all the words, phrases and sentences are to be understood verbatim.

Secondly, John recieved his visions over time, and not necessarily in order. He did not receive it all in one day, nor did he write it all out in one day. One must consider that he only had parchment papers to write on, and was very limited by pen and ink, whatever that was.

Summarize what is written in the text of Revelation 11:3-12 about the two witnesses.

 

[FaithWillDo]

You have all the information. Why then from behind the veil, do you hinder the latter rain by which I have spoken to you?

Dear ScottA,
Like your question, your comments make little sense and they are not supported by scripture.

Firstly, no one can hinder the Latter Rain of the Spirit from falling on them or anyone else. If you believe that anyone can, then it is a sign that you believe in man's works and that salvation must be earned in someway. When a believer adds their own works to the works of Christ, they are mixing the Old Wine with the New Wine together.

Prov 23:29 Who hath woe? who hath sorrow? who hath contentions? who hath babbling? who hath wounds without cause? who hath redness of eyes? 30 They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine. 31 Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright. 32 At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder.

When a believer mixes the two covenants together, it will bite them like a serpent and will spiritually kill them. This is what happened to the Two Witnesses:

Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

Christ is the one who freely gives the Spirit of Truth to a person and He does so at the time of His own choosing. No one deserves receiving it but He gives it to them anyway because of His grace.

This scripture applies:

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Did Paul (as the chief of sinners) hinder Christ from giving him the Latter Rain of the Spirit? Absolutely not. Salvation is given to a person by promise and not by any work that a person might or might not do.

Gal 3:18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

Gal 4:23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he (the Elect/heirs of Abraham) of the freewoman was by promise.

Christ gave Paul the Latter Rain of the Spirit because Paul was chosen to receive it to satisfy the purposes of God "according to election". It was a free gift. The same applies to all the Elect.

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth.

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Lastly, it is Christ who is behind the veil because mankind is too carnally minded and spiritually blind to see Him. In contrast, mankind is not veiled from Christ. Christ knows what's in the hearts and minds of mankind.

It is obvious to me that Christ is not working at this time to open your eyes to the truth. I learned a long time ago that no matter how much light that I shine on a blind man, they are still not going to be able to see it. Christ is the healer of the blind. I am not. I will move onto another thread unless another member posts to me here.

Joe

 

[Douggg]

When a believer mixes the two covenants together, it will bite them like a serpent and will spiritually kill them. This is what happened to the Two Witnesses:

Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

You are not communicating clearly.

The two witnesses are not killed spiritually because they mix two covenants together. The two witnesses will be empowered by God to prophesy and testify.

The beast will physically kill the two witnesses. Why not just stick to the text of what is written in Revelation 11:3-12 ?

 

[FaithWillDo]

You are not communicating clearly.

The two witnesses are not killed spiritually because they mix two covenants together. The two witnesses will be empowered by God to prophesy and testify.

The beast will physically kill the two witnesses. Why not just stick to the text of what is written in Revelation 11:3-12 ?

Dear Douggg,
The teachings of the New Covenant are presented in Christ's spiritual language so that carnally minded believers (babes) will not be able to understand their messages. The book of Revelation is no exception.

The text of Rev 11:3-12 repeats the same message that is taught over and over again by Christ in His analogies, parables, types and prophecies. They are all teaching certain aspects (here a little and there a little) of how Christ saves His Elect during this age. After a person can understand the full pathway to salvation that Christ causes His Elect to travel, all the pieces will fit into place.

Here is a profound truth that most believers do not understand:

The Old Covenant of Law is physical and outward. Its teachings are meant to be understood by carnal mankind. The physical work that Christ performed under the Old Covenant which took Him to the cross is likewise "physical and outward". Babes have no trouble understanding this work (Christ and Him crucified, 1Cor 2:2).

The New Covenant is completely different. Its is spiritual and inward. Carnal mankind cannot understand its teachings because they try to understand them in a carnal way (physically and outwardly). To understand the New Covenant teachings, a person must be converted and guided by the Spirit. They will then understand that the teachings of the New Covenant must be applied spiritually within a person and not out into the world. The spiritual events described by the New Covenant teachings cannot be seen with human eyes.

Luke 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: 21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Here are a couple of examples of how to understand the difference between the Old Covenant teachings and the New Covenant teachings:

1). Under the Old Covenant, when a prophet was killed, he was physically killed and his death could be seen with human eyes. This is physical and outward. Under the New Covenant, when a believer is killed, they are spiritually killed (loss of salvation). This death cannot be seen with human eyes because it is spiritual and inward.

2). When Christ appeared the first time, He appeared physically under the Old Covenant. He could be seen with human eyes. When Christ appears the second time, He appears spiritually under the New Covenant. He can not be seen with human eyes.

Until a believer can understand to rightly divide the Word by the physical and spiritual difference between the two covenants, Christ (the Word of God) is going to remained veiled from their understanding.

The prophecy of the Two Witnesses is a spiritual teaching of the New Covenant. The events are spiritual events and they apply within each Elect believer as they travel the pathway to salvation. And as John says, the time for their fulfillment was already "at hand" when he received the vision.

Below is a summary of the pathway to salvation that Christ causes His Elect to travel. The spiritual events described in the prophecy of the Two Witnesses will fit into this pathway - but like all of Christ's spiritual teachings, only pieces of the pathway are presented in each of His teachings (here a little and there a little).

• Christ gives the Early Rain of the Spirit to call a person to be a saint. This includes the "many" and the "few" (Mat 22:14). This is when the person will make a confession of faith and will enter the church (1Cor 12:3). However, the new believer will remain spiritually blind, carnally minded and unconverted (Mat 12:43-45, Mark 8:15-25 & Paul's experience on the Damascus Road).
• The spirit of anti-Christ will then enter the unconverted believer and cause the Abomination of Desolation to occur within them. This is when the new believer consumes Satan's leavened bread and becomes "worse than the first"; a Man of Sin who mixes their own works with faith under the New Covenant. They have now received the Mark of the Beast.
• The new believer then "falls away" (mixes works with faith/sin that leads to death) and loses their salvation. This is when the Two Witnesses are spiritually killed. At this time, the believer will unknowingly enter the apostate church. The "many" who are only called to be saints will remain in this lost condition until they die.
• For the Elect (the "few"), Christ will "come again" to them and pour out the Latter Rain of the Spirit (Spirit of Truth/Baptism of the Spirit). This is when an Elect believer is sealed with the Holy Spirit of Promise (Eph 1:10-14). With the Latter Rain of the Spirit, the fallen away believer will repent of their works and make Christ's pathway straight for Him to spiritually "appear".
• Also at this time, the believer's spiritual blindness will be healed.
• Christ then “appears” and gathers the believer (now born again as child of God) to heaven (spiritually speaking, not literally, Mat 24:29-31). This is when the Marriage of the Lamb occurs.
• Now with "eyes that can see", the Marriage Supper of the Lamb/Lord's Supper will occur where Christ feeds the believer His Bread and New Wine (truth of the New Covenant). This is when they will "see" the Abomination of Desolation which previously occurred within themselves when the spirit of anti-Christ entered them (Mat 24:15-16).
• The truth the believer receives will begin the Day of the Lord/Thousand Years Reign (judgment).
• During the Day of the Lord, the spirit of anti-Christ and the believer's carnal spirit (Great Harlot) will be "taken" from within the believer and cast into the Lake of Fire for destruction (shown in Rev 19:20 and Mat 24:40-41).
• The believer is now converted.
• After the conversion process is complete, all that will remain within the believer is the Holy Spirit who will begin maturing the new child of God into a perfect man by feeding them "meat" accompanied by any necessary chastisement. This maturing process will teach them righteousness (Isa 26:9, Phi 2:13).
• Next comes the time of testing by Satan when he is loosed from his prison (Rev 20:7-10). After the believer passes their time of testing, it will be said that they have overcome this world just as Christ overcame this world (Rev 3:21).
• The believer is now ready for the bodily resurrection which will occur at the end of the age (redemption of the body).

Can you see where the spiritual events described in the prophecy of the Two Witnesses fit into the pathway to salvation?

Joe

 

[Earburner]

Summarize what is written in the text of Revelation 11:3-12 about the two witnesses.

Are you looking for a summary according to our carnal mind, or a summary from the mind of Christ, aka His Holy Spirit?
I will provide the latter in three parts.

Part 1,2 and 3 by Earburner:

Part 1 of 3:
John and Jesus were a joint ministry.
Elizabeth and Mary knew each other before their children were born.

Elisabeth and John the baptist:
John 1
[12] And when Zacharias saw him [the angel], he was troubled, and fear fell upon him.
[13] But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John.
[14] And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth.
[15] For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.
[16] And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God.
[17] And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

Mary and Jesus:
[34] Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
[35] And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
[36] And, behold, thy COUSIN Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren.
[37] For with God nothing shall be impossible.
[38] And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.
[39] And Mary arose in those days, and went into the hill country with haste, into a city of Juda;
[40] And entered into the house of Zacharias, and saluted Elisabeth.
[41] And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:
[42] And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.
[43] And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?
[44] For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.

If that isn't being "anointed" before and at birth, with the symbolic "oil" of the Holy Spirit of God (Zech. 4), then all of Christianity has gone blind to the truth.
Zech. 4
[11] Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?
[12] And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes EMPTY the golden OIL out of themselves? [Oil is symbolic of God's Holy Spirit].
[13] And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
[14] Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by [for] the LORD of the whole earth.
2b cont'd-

 

[Earburner]

Part 2 of 3:
Most Christians are assuming that the two witnesses haven't come yet, because by their mind of thinking, all the literal words have not been fulfilled yet. Therefore, by our perspective of time, many perceive chronologically, that the two witnesses MUST appear just before Jesus returns in Glory. However, the problem is, only God the Father knows precisely, of when to send Jesus to return and redeem His people.
From what I understand, Jesus has not returned in flaming fire yet, but He did appear as one of the "two witnesses", and indeed it was before "that great and dreadful Day".

As for the other witness, being John the Baptist, he fulfilled Malachi 4:5-6, as shown in Luke 1:16-17.
Malachi 4
[5] Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
[6] And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers [the act of restoration], lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.
Luke 1
(The holy angel of the Lord said to Zacharias):
[16] And many of the children of Israel shall he turn [cause repentance, to restore] to the Lord their God.
[17] And he shall go before him in the spirit and power [authority] of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord [God], [who was in the mortal flesh of Jesus].

Please notice that the prophecy of Malachi 4:5-6 was NOT fulfilled verbatim** in Luke 1:16-17.
Because the prophecy wasn't fulfilled verbatim, is most all of Christianity calling the angel a liar?

Think it through WITH the mind of Christ, and not by the mind of your "natural man", or by the religious persuasion of "church-ianity".

**Note: the same holds true for the book of Revelation.
2b cont'd-

 

[Earburner]

Part 3 of 3:
Let me interject here for a moment, with a biblical and Godly point, that shall enhance your understanding.
James 5[17] Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months.

Such a length of time as that, is equivalent to 1260 days, and/or 42 months, aka 3.5 years.
If I recall correctly, two people, in a joint ministry, of God's "anointing", was allotted an identical time period to accomplish the work assigned through them. One lost his head over it, and the other's Father, did assemble two sticks for Himself and his Son's fate [the cross]. 1 Kings 17:12.

After the completion of those two events, of 6 months and 3 years (1260 days), it surely did "rain" again, in fact now equally and everywhere on all the earth, it has "poured upon" the earth mightily, not with literal rain, but rather with the "rain" of God's Holy Spirit, on the Day of Pentecost, and it is still on going.

Back to my post #65

 

[Verily]

Your replies to me have been somewhat vague, so I assumed that you were not understanding that I percieve that John the Baptist and Jesus were the two witnesses, whereby there are no others to come.
There are numerous scriptures in the gospels that support my conclusion.
But, since you are not looking for any clues from me, I strongly sugggest that you find them yourself. And if not, then enjoy the whirlwind that church-ianity promotes.

If my replies have been somewhat vague then why would you first assume by them that I had reached some wrong conclusion when I had never stated I reached a conclusion?

And I do realize that John had the Holy Ghost from the womb and did bear witness to the truth as Jesus said (who was conceived by the Holy Ghost) and who said to John that it becometh us (together) to fulfil all righteousness. That these two had a part together.

I just do not see Jesus and John being the two witnesses whose dead bodies "were" (as in the past sometime) lying in the street of the great city, "where also our Lord was crucified" (at some previous time).

And thank you, I am glad you suggest that I find out things for myself because that is what I have always done and will continue to do. And as far as "church-ianity" goes (as you call it here) and the whirlwind of confusion out there I dont know why you feel justified to set yourself above it with the answers you have provided to me (when I never asked you).

I was finding the answers for myself by comparing, but you come in and got all (what do you call it?) "churchianity" on me promoting things that dont fit.

 

[ScottA]

No, you did not. And you certainly don't speak for God.

The summary of Revelation 11:3-12 about the two witnesses is that the two witnesses are two individual humans, who will prophesy and testify for 1260 days. Then be killed and their bodies lay dead in the streets of Jerusalem for 3 1/2 days. Then will be brought back to life and ascend up to heaven in a cloud, while their enemies look on.

You don't understand, and thus reject. So shall it be written of you.

 

[ScottA]

Dear ScottA,
Like your question, your comments make little sense and they are not supported by scripture.

That is because I used your words to answer you in your own terms. So, yes, it would appear to make little sense.

Firstly, no one can hinder the Latter Rain of the Spirit from falling on them or anyone else. If you believe that anyone can, then it is a sign that you believe in man's works and that salvation must be earned in someway. When a believer adds their own works to the works of Christ, they are mixing the Old Wine with the New Wine together.

How is it that you who boast of scriptural knowledge do not know that the two witnesses "have power to shut heaven, so that no rain falls in the days of their prophecy?"

Christ is the one who freely gives the Spirit of Truth to a person and He does so at the time of His own choosing. No one deserves receiving it but He gives it to them anyway because of His grace.

This scripture applies:

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Did Paul (as the chief of sinners) hinder Christ from giving him the Latter Rain of the Spirit? Absolutely not. Salvation is given to a person by promise and not by any work that a person might or might not do.

Yes, and likewise, you have not hindered me, but only what you might have received in greater measure.

Lastly, it is Christ who is behind the veil because mankind is too carnally minded and spiritually blind to see Him. In contrast, mankind is not veiled from Christ. Christ knows what's in the hearts and minds of mankind.

It is obvious to me that Christ is not working at this time to open your eyes to the truth. I learned a long time ago that no matter how much light that I shine on a blind man, they are still not going to be able to see it. Christ is the healer of the blind. I am not. I will move onto another thread unless another member posts to me here.

Yes, and you have shown your own spiritual blindness. Therefore take heed that the light which is in you is not darkness.

 

[Earburner]

If my replies have been somewhat vague then why would you first assume by them that I had reached some wrong conclusion when I had never stated I reached a conclusion?

And I do realize that John had the Holy Ghost from the womb and did bear witness to the truth as Jesus said (who was conceived by the Holy Ghost) and who said to John that it becometh us (together) to fulfil all righteousness. That these two had a part together.

I just do not see Jesus and John being the two witnesses whose dead bodies "were" (as in the past sometime) lying in the street of the great city, "where also our Lord was crucified" (at some previous time).

And thank you, I am glad you suggest that I find out things for myself because that is what I have always done and will continue to do. And as far as "church-ianity" goes (as you call it here) and the whirlwind of confusion out there I dont know why you feel justified to set yourself above it with the answers you have provided to me (when I never asked you).

I was finding the answers for myself by comparing, but you come in and got all (what do you call it?) "churchianity" on me promoting things that dont fit.

I did not try to approach your beliefs with anything of an assumption, except that you were being vague about your question to me in your post #15:
"I dont really have a conclusion I just compare where similar things can be compared.
So you believe the two witnesses in Revelation are past only"

And so, having no sure idea of your stand, in post #19 I gave two clues of how "oil" is symbolic of the Holy Spirit.
Zech. 4:12; Luke 1:15 and Mat. 1:20.

By the way, "church-ianity" is the term I use for "the wisdom of men".
1 Cor. 2
[5] That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power [anointing] of God.

If you have an open mind in Christ, and would like to see more scriptural depth of my understanding, then please see posts #71, 72 and 73.

 

[Verily]

@Earburner

In post #14 you are quoting my post #12 which was directed to tailgator (not to you) which was simply acknowledging the fact that I know how HE sees something because we have gone down this
road before. Thats it.

You respond to this post in part saying, "Unfortunately, you also have drawn a wrong conclusion.

and then go on to tell me about verses I am already familar with except for the fact that you changed the words from "ARE" to "WERE" saying

The two witnesses of Rev. 11:3-12 WERE the two anointed ones shown in Zech. 4:12-14.

I quote you in my post #11 (And the post I am quoting has apparently disappeared) where I show these verses as they are written

Rev 11:4 These ARE the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

From here

Zech 4:14 Then said he, These ARE the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.

I also respond on post #15 informing you that

I dont really have a conclusion I just compare where similar things can be compared.

And so when you emphasized WERE (instead of how they are written ARE) I simply said,

So you believe the two witnesses in Revelation are past only

You then respond in post #16 basically saying

Yes. (Then you add the scriptures showing the oil is the Holy Spirit and where the Holy Spirit is and how Jesus was born of the Holy ghost and how John was filled with the Holy ghost from the womb) which is all very elemental.

In post #36 you give me a hint into the big secret of who you believe are the two witnesses and tell me to

"take a long hard look at John the baptist and Jesus."

But I already have taken a long hard look at John and Jesus many years ago because that would be the more obvious place to start when you are trying to make your connections. and without quoting the entire post I said to you in post #74

I just do not see Jesus and John being the two witnesses whose dead bodies "were" (as in the past sometime) lying in the street of the great city, "where also our Lord was crucified" (at a previous time).

Which you gave no answer for to the contrary on how you make that fit.

But when you say in post #77

I did not try to approach your beliefs with anything of an assumption, except that you were being vague about your question to me in your post #15:

See rather one post earlier, try post #14 where you said in part,

"Unfortunately, you also have drawn a wrong conclusion.

It was that post where I am talking to tailgator about being familiar with his posts (which was an odd place to quote me)

And again (as I stated above already) per #15 I said,

"I dont really have a conclusion I just compare where similar things can be compared.

So you believe the two witnesses in Revelation are past only"

And so lets close this off with one question (since I stated one reason only why I do not believe the two witnesses are John and Jesus) because both John and Jesus bodies would need to lie in the street of the great city WHERE ALSO our Lord WAS crucified (at a previous time).

The Gospel is that Jesus died and WAS BURIED, but these are not suffered that their dead bodies to be put in graves. (Jesus had a grave Isaiah 53:9)

It would have to deny the gospel truth that Jesus was buried while neither of these witnesses were

 

[Douggg]

2). When Christ appeared the first time, He appeared physically under the Old Covenant. He could be seen with human eyes. When Christ appears the second time, He appears spiritually under the New Covenant. He can not be seen with human eyes.

No, you are wrong.

Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

 

[FaithWillDo]

No, you are wrong.

Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Dear Douggg,
It is only after Christ has given a person the Latter Rain of the Spirit that their spiritual blindness will be healed. Once it is healed, Christ will appear in the clouds and will then gather the newly born child of God to heaven.

Christ appears in the clouds because it is His cloud of witnesses that testify of Him through scripture:

Heb 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

And since every eye will see Christ, all mankind will be saved and will see the salvation of God.

This is what the verses below are teaching:

Luke 3:4 As it is written in the book of the words of Esaias the prophet, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. 5 Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways shall be made smooth; 6 And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.

Phi 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 and that every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

1Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; 4 who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

1John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.

1Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Acts 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Rom 5:18 so then as it was by one offence towards all men to condemnation, so by one righteousness towards all men for justification of life. 19 For as indeed by the disobedience of the one man the many have been constituted sinners, so also by the obedience of the one the many will be constituted righteous.

Joe