The time, times, and a half does not include the season and time, which is the thousand years.

[Davidpt]

It does say the dead in Christ rise first….

with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God : and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

During a trumpet, though. There is no trumpet sounding towards the end of the 2nd woe when the 2Ws rise. The 2Ws rise toward the end of the 2nd woe not at the beginning of the 3rd woe. The beginning of the 3rd woe is the 7th trumpet.

Revelation 11:11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

How does it make sense that if John first said what he did in verses 11-13, then said what he did in verse 14, the 2nd woe is past, that it doesn't include anything he said in verses 11-13? If he meant for verses 11-13 to be involving the beginning of the 3rd woe instead, he would have maybe written it like such, below. Except he didn't.

Revelation 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

Even though you are not an Amil, some posting in this thread are Amils. Now we have verse 13 happening after Christ has bodily returned and instead of every unsaved person on the planet getting destroyed as these Amils teach, there are only 7000 destroyed per this event and that there are unsaved survivors remaining that are giving glory to God, all this during the 2nd coming if these Amils are correct that verse 13 fits the 3rd woe rather than the 2nd woe.. These survivors per this scenario can't be meaning any of the saved because Amils have all of the saved up in the sky the moment the 7th trumpet sounds, thus meaning 1 Thessalonians 4:17.

Except the 2Ws can't be meaning anyone in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 to begin with if they are initially alive, then dead, then come back to life. Those in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 are never dead before the 2nd coming takes place if they are still alive when the 2nd coming takes place. Which then begs the question, where do we see any mention of these in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 in Revelation 11:11-13?

Amils can't seem to get it straight as to what they believe. They insist there are no survivors when the 2nd coming takes place, that every unsaved person on the planet is destroyed. Then contradict that by insisting Revelation 11:13 is meaning during the 3rd woe and the 7th trumpet, except verse 13 is not remotely agreeing with their interpretation if only 7000 are killed and that there is a remnant that isn't.

This particular problem could go away for them if they just simply stuck to what the text plainly tells us, that Revelation 11:11-13 is meaning during the 2nd woe not the 3rd woe. Now verse 13 doesn't have to mean after the 2nd coming has already taken place.

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

During a trumpet, though. There is no trumpet sounding towards the end of the 2nd woe when the 2Ws rise.

The saints/ 2 witnesses rise after the 7th angel sounds….
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.”

“Come up hither” is the shout!

there are only 7000 destroyed per this event and that there are unsaved survivors remaining that are giving glory to God

That verse is talking about the remnant of Israel, notice the wording….

Romans 11:1-5

King James Version

​

11 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.”

Notice the wording…

Revelation 11:13
And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

 

[Davidpt]

The saints/ 2 witnesses rise after the 7th angel sounds….
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.”

“Come up hither” is the shout!


That verse is talking about the remnant of Israel, notice the wording….

Romans 11:1-5

King James Version

​

11 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.”

Notice the wording…

Revelation 11:13
And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

This remnant that are affrighted, how does that make sense if they are meaning the ones in 1 Thessalonian 4:17, which means they wouldn't even still be be on the earth to begin with, they would be up in the sky instead if verse 13 is meaning during the 2nd coming and that the remnant in verse 13 are meaning the saved? Keeping in mind, the rapture happens in the twinkling of an eye. Nowhere does it say in Revelation 11:11-13 that their enemies also beheld physically alive saints that were never dead at anytime, also ascending into heaven at the time. IOW, there is a difference between the dead in Christ and those that are alive remain unto the 2nd coming.

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

This remnant that are affrighted, how does that make sense if they are meaning the ones in 1 Thessalonian 4:17, which means they wouldn't even still be be on the earth to begin with, they would be up in the sky instead if verse 13 is meaning during the 2nd coming and that the remnant in verse 13 are meaning the saved? Keeping in mind, the rapture happens in the twinkling of an eye. Nowhere does it say in Revelation 11:11-13 that their enemies also beheld physically alive saints that were never dead at anytime, also ascending into heaven at the time. IOW, there is a difference between the dead in Christ and those that are alive remain unto the 2nd coming.

In verse 18 it says the time of the dead has come that they shall be judged. We know by scripture that the judgement of the dead in Christ also happens at the last day.

18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.”

John 12:48
He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Revelation 22:12
And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Daniel 7:9-10

King James Version

​

9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

Daniel 7:22
Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

 

[Davidpt]

In verse 18 it says the time of the dead has come that they shall be judged. We know by scripture that the judgement of the dead in Christ also happens at the last day.

18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.”

John 12:48
He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Revelation 22:12
And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Daniel 7:9-10

King James Version

​

9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

Daniel 7:22
Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

IMO, you are conflating events involving the 2nd woe with that of events involving the 3rd woe.

But even so, I'm going to be honest here. I hope I am wrong about verses 11-13 where I think they are meaning during the 2nd woe, but are really meaning during the 3rd woe. That way I get to enjoy watching Amils contradict their view yet again then act as if they are not. Because, there is no way that verse 13 supports what Amils insist happens during the 2nd coming, that all unsaved persons on the planet are destroyed and there are no survivors.

Revelation 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.


This happens the same hour the 2Ws rise then ascend into heaven. If verse 13 here is meaning after the 7th trumpet has sounded, this would indicate per Amil verse 13 is meaning after Christ has already returned since Amil has Christ returning at the 7th trumpet.

and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand---Does it look like every unsaved person on the planet is destroyed?

and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.---Does it look like there are no unsaved survivors?

Keeping in mind, per Amil, as of the 7th trumpet all of the saved would be up in the sky with Jesus(1 Thessalonians 4:17), not still on the earth below instead. Therefore, these remnant that gave glory to the God of heaven couldn't possibly be meaning any of the saved. But they could possibly be among the saved if verse 13 is meaning before the 2nd coming rather than after the 2nd coming, though I highly doubt it.. We know for sure they can't be among the saved if verse 13 is meaning after the 2nd coming, though. All the saved are up in the sky at that point, not still on the earth below.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Blabber blabber blabber
That is all you do.Post after post of nonsense blabber.You don't have an ounce of common sense.

Yep, I struck a nerve, alright. This is all you can say in response anymore. You saying "Blabber blabber blabber" makes a lot more sense than anything you usually say, so it's an improvement.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

In verse 18 it says the time of the dead has come that they shall be judged. We know by scripture that the judgement of the dead in Christ also happens at the last day.

18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.”

John 12:48
He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Revelation 22:12
And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Daniel 7:9-10​

​

King James Version​

​

​

9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

Daniel 7:22
Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

The dead are judged AFTER the thousand years, so what does that tell you about when the seventh trumpet sounds?

Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

Because, there is no way that verse 13 supports what Amils insist happens during the 2nd coming, that all unsaved persons on the planet are destroyed and there are no survivors.

There are several verses that prove some of the unbelieving are left on earth such as….

Daniel 7:12
As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.(= a thousand years)

And here…
Isaiah 24:6
Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left.

But as concerning the resurrection of the dead in Christ I believe the 2 witnesses being raised up represents the saints who have God’s 2 witnesses in them also being raised up at the last day at the last trump. There is no mention of anyone being physically resurrected before that time, with of course the exception of Jesus and the firstfruits of Israel.

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

The dead are judged AFTER the thousand years, so what does that tell you about when the seventh trumpet sounds?

Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

The dead in Christ are raised FIRST and judged BEFORE (((the rest of the dead,)))which are not of the FIRST resurrection.

Daniel 7:22
Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given ((to the saints)) of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

Revelation 20:1-6

King James Version

​

20 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.”

After the thousand years the rest of the dead who were not of the FIRST resurrection are then judged In Revelation 20:11 At the great white throne judgment.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

IMO, you are conflating events involving the 2nd woe with that of events involving the 3rd woe.

But even so, I'm going to be honest here. I hope I am wrong about verses 11-13 where I think they are meaning during the 2nd woe, but are really meaning during the 3rd woe. That way I get to enjoy watching Amils contradict their view yet again then act as if they are not.

You, of course, have no idea of what you're talking about, as usual, but tell me one time when Amils have contradicted our view.

Because, there is no way that verse 13 supports what Amils insist happens during the 2nd coming, that all unsaved persons on the planet are destroyed and there are no survivors.

Certainly there's no way that could be the case if your flawed literal approach to the most highly symbolic book in scripture was the correct one. But, it's not.

Revelation 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.


This happens the same hour the 2Ws rise then ascend into heaven. If verse 13 here is meaning after the 7th trumpet has sounded, this would indicate per Amil verse 13 is meaning after Christ has already returned since Amil has Christ returning at the 7th trumpet.

It's not after the 7th trumpet has sounded, it's when the 7th trumpet sounds. Verse 13 happens at the same hour/time as what is described in verse 12. The great voice from heaven that calls them "up hither" is "the voice of the archangel" (1 Thess 4:16). It's "the voice of the seventh angel (Rev 10:7).

and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand---Does it look like every unsaved person on the planet is destroyed?

If you were actually correct that this was meant to be taken literally, you'd have a point, but you have proven time and time again that you are not good at differentiating between literal and symbolic text. Think about it. In a literal earthquake, would it destroy an even amount of people like that? There would just happen to be exactly 7,000 people destroyed? The number 7 can't ever be symbolic for completeness? The number 1000 can't symbolically represent an indefinite number? The 7,000 has to be literal? The earthquake wouldn't kill 6,999 people? It would somehow kill literally 7,000 people? Not 7,001? Not 6,783? Not 7,249? It's clearly symbolic text there, but you're never able to recognize that. You have decided that Revelation 11:13 should be interpreted literally, but somehow 2 Peter 3:10-12 should not. You often interpret literal text symbolically and symbolic text literally.

and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.---Does it look like there are no unsaved survivors?

Since when do unsaved people give glory to God? Are you kidding me? Do you think Paul didn't know what he was talking about when he wrote this:

2 Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

So, you think Paul was wrong to say that Jesus will take "vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ" when He comes? You think He will allow most of them to survive instead? Is it typical of those "that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ" to give glory to God? It seems you have a strange understanding of unsaved people.

Keeping in mind, per Amil, as of the 7th trumpet all of the saved would be up in the sky with Jesus(1 Thessalonians 4:17), not still on the earth below instead.

It doesn't say that the others are on earth.

Therefore, these remnant that gave glory to the God of heaven couldn't possibly be meaning any of the saved.

Unsaved people don't give glory to God. Look what your premil bias does to you. It causes you to believe complete nonsense like thinking that unsaved people give glory to God. The second woe is described in Revelation 9:13-21, not Revelation 11:1-13.

 

[tailgator]

Yep, I struck a nerve, alright. This is all you can say in response anymore. You saying "Blabber blabber blabber" makes a lot more sense than anything you usually say, so it's an improvement.

You can't stop blabbing.
You spend all day just blabbing .
You need help for your blabbing addiction .

Rehab PPC

call 866.429.2960 Evoke Wellness offers same-day admission for those seeking help. Start admissions online or call 866.429.2960 Click Here for Helpline Information call now •…

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[Davidpt]

There are several verses that prove some of the unbelieving are left on earth such as….

Daniel 7:12
As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.(= a thousand years)

And here…
Isaiah 24:6
Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left.

But as concerning the resurrection of the dead in Christ I believe the 2 witnesses being raised up represents the saints who have God’s 2 witnesses in them also being raised up at the last day at the last trump. There is no mention of anyone being physically resurrected before that time, with of course the exception of Jesus and the firstfruits of Israel.

I don't mind if I am wrong in this case. I hope I am. That means per Amil verse 13 would be meaning after Christ has returned, except some Amils have the entire planet literally engulfed in flames the same way it was engulfed in water. As if verse 13 makes sense per a scenario like that, that if the entire planet is literally burning everything and everyone up, that there would be this pointless earthquake that kills this 7000, and that there would be this pointless remnant that were affrighted by this, so they then gave glory to God out of heaven. All the while the entire planet is supposed to be burning up everything and everyone in it's path. Ok, if you say so. Makes perfect sense to me---not.

Nothing supports their literal interpretation of 2 Peter 3:10-12. Revelation 11:11-13 certainly doesn't. Nor does anything recorded in Revelation 19 support it. There is nothing in the text that suggests the entire planet is literally engulfed in flames at the time.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The dead in Christ are raised FIRST and judged BEFORE (((the rest of the dead,)))which are not of the FIRST resurrection.

You continue to insist on taking 1 Thess 4:16 out of context. Unbelievers are not even in view in 1 Thess 4:14-17, so the order of resurrections is not what Paul is alluding to in that verse. Instead, he is pointing out how the dead in Christ have to first be resurrected before they are caught up together with those who are alive and remain to meet the Lord in the air. Paul had previously said in verse 15 "we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep", so he was saying the dead in Christ ("them which are asleep") and those who are alive and remain had to be caught up together. That couldn't happen without the dead in Christ being resurrected first before they all together are caught up. So, that is the context of the dead in Christ being resurrected first. You are changing the context to make it say what you want it to say to fit your doctrine.

Also, you said "In verse 18 it says the time of the dead has come that they shall be judged.". You were referring to Revelation 11:18. That verse is talking about things that will happen when the seventh trumpet sounds, right? So, when are the dead judged? Clearly, they will be judged AFTER the thousand years (Revelation 20:11-15). But, will you address that and acknowledge that? Of course not. Instead, you try to find any way you can around that.

Daniel 7:22
Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given ((to the saints)) of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

Revelation 20:1-6​

​

King James Version​

​

​

20 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.”

After the thousand years the rest of the dead who were not of the FIRST resurrection are then judged In Revelation 20:11 At the great white throne judgment.

The dead are all judged at the same time. Scripture repeatedly shows all people being judged at the same time, but you don't want to acknowledge that. Matthew 25:31-46 makes that very clear as do the parables in Matthew 13:24-30 (explained in Matt 13:36-43) and this one:

Matthew 13:47 “Once again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was let down into the lake and caught all kinds of fish. 48 When it was full, the fishermen pulled it up on the shore. Then they sat down and collected the good fish in baskets, but threw the bad away. 49 This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous 50 and throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Tell me, when do you think what is described in this parable will happen? It says it will happen at the end of the age. When do you think that will be in relation to the second coming of Christ? Why do you have the righteous being judged 1,000+ years before the wicked when Jesus has them being judged at the same time? Do you think Jesus was mistaken?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I don't mind if I am wrong in this case. I hope I am. That means per Amil verse 13 would be meaning after Christ has returned, except some Amils have the entire planet literally engulfed in flames the same way it was engulfed in water.

Because that is what scripture teaches. You take Revelation 11:13 literally, but not the following passage. How convenient.

2 Peter 3:6 By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.

Tell me how you interpret this passage if this is not talking about the heavens and earth litreally being "engulfed in flames".

Tell me how you interpret the following passage if it's not meant to be interpreted literally.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

You continually interpret symbolic text literally and literal text symbolically. As we all know, when earthquakes literally happen, they always kill an even number of people, such as 7,000. Right? Or not? No change that Revelation 11:13 could be symbolic? But, 2 Peter 3:10-12 somehow can't be literal? Really? How about you back up your claims by showing how this should be interpeted. Your opinions alone aren't going to convince anyone of anything.

As if verse 13 makes sense per a scenario like that, that if the entire planet is literally burning everything and everyone up, that there would be this pointless earthquake that kills this 7000, and that there would be this pointless remnant that were affrighted by this, so they then gave glory to God out of heaven. All the while the entire planet is supposed to be burning up everything and everyone in it's path. Ok, if you say so. Makes perfect sense to me---not.

Nothing supports their literal interpretation of 2 Peter 3:10-12. Revelation 11:11-13 certainly doesn't. Nor does anything recorded in Revelation 19 support it. There is nothing in the text that suggests the entire planet is literally engulfed in flames at the time.

Put your money where your mouth is and exegete the following passage for us if you want to be taken seriously. You sure you have low self esteem as you claimed? You come across as having too high of self esteem.

2 Peter 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

You can end the amil vs. premil debate for good from my perspective if you could convince me that this passage can support premil. So, go for it. You obviously think you knwo it all with your prideful bragging that you're doing here, so I'm sure showing me how this passage supports premil will not be a problem for you at all.

 

[tailgator]

Because that is what scripture teaches. You take Revelation 11:13 literally, but not the following passage. How convenient.

2 Peter 3:6 By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.

Tell me how you interpret this passage if this is not talking about the heavens and earth litreally being "engulfed in flames".

Tell me how you interpret the following passage if it's not meant to be interpreted literally.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

You continually interpret symbolic text literally and literal text symbolically. As we all know, when earthquakes literally happen, they always kill an even number of people, such as 7,000. Right? Or not? No change that Revelation 11:13 could be symbolic? But, 2 Peter 3:10-12 somehow can't be literal? Really? How about you back up your claims by showing how this should be interpeted. Your opinions alone aren't going to convince anyone of anything.


Put your money where your mouth is and exegete the following passage for us if you want to be taken seriously. You sure you have low self esteem as you claimed? You come across as having too high of self esteem.

2 Peter 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

You can end the amil vs. premil debate for good from my perspective if you could convince me that this passage can support premil. So, go for it. You obviously think you knwo it all with your prideful bragging that you're doing here, so I'm sure showing me how this passage supports premil will not be a problem for you at all.

You say everyone is judged at the same time yet scripture shows the kingdom of the beast and the false prophet are judged a thousand years before anyone else.



Do you have anything to support your view the beast and false prophet are judged after the 1000 years?


Before the 1000 years.

Revelation 19:20
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

20 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.


Then after the 1000 years.


7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

[tailgator]

Now if anyone knows what kingdom belongs to the beast,they would know what kingdom is destroyed at Christs coming.Before the 1000 years.


"a land that has recovered from war,"

Ezekiel 38:8
After many days you will be called to arms. In future years you will invade a land that has recovered from war, whose people were gathered from many nations to the mountains of Israel, which had long been desolate. They had been brought out from the nations, and now all of them live in safety.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You say everyone is judged at the same time yet scripture shows the kingdom of the beast and the false prophet are judged a thousand years before anyone else.

That's your assumption, which is wrong. I'm not obligated to agree with your false assumptions. I believe Revelation 20:9-15 is parallel to Revelation 19:11-21. Are you able to understand that the events described in Revelation are not all in chronological order? The most obvious example of that is Revelation 11 and 12.

Do you have anything to support your view the beast and false prophet are judged after the 1000 years?

I have supported my amil view over and over and over again. But, you still ask me this as if you don't know what amils like me believe. Obviously, no matter what I say you will just ignore it because you have no interest in understanding other views, so why bother?

 

[tailgator]

That's your assumption, which is wrong. I'm not obligated to agree with your false assumptions. I believe Revelation 20:9-15 is parallel to Revelation 19:11-21. Are you able to understand that the events described in Revelation are not all in chronological order? The most obvious example of that is Revelation 11 and 12.


I have supported my amil view over and over and over again. But, you still ask me this as if you don't know what amils like me believe. Obviously, no matter what I say you will just ignore it because you have no interest in understanding other views, so why bother?

So you have no scripture to support the beast and the false prophet are cast into the lake of fire after the 1000 years.

Well,we will just have to believe the scripture I posted which shows they are cast into the lake of fire 1000 years before anyone else is judged.

The whole kingdom.of the beast is judged 1000 years before anyone else.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

So you have no scripture to support the beast and the false prophet are cast into the lake of fire after the 1000 years.

I have tons of scripture to support my amil view. Do you want me to post all of the scripture that I use to support my view in one post? I don't just interpret passages in isolation the way you do, so I'd need to show why I believe what I do using a lot of scripture. Which I have done many times. Do you know what amillennialists believe or do I need to explain it all to you?

If you don't think everyone is judged at the same time, then tell me how you interpret Matthew 25:31-46?

Well,we will just have to believe the scripture I posted which shows they are cast into the lake of fire 1000 years before anyone else is judged.

That is based on your assumption that what is described in Revelation 19 occurs chronologically before what is described in Revelation 20, but I don't believe that. The book is clearly not all chronological from beginning to end. Do you understand that much, at least?

 

[tailgator]

I have tons of scripture to support my amil view. Do you want me to post all of the scripture that I use to support my view in one post? I don't just interpret passages in isolation the way you do, so I'd need to show why I believe what I do using a lot of scripture. Which I have done many times. Do you know what amillennialists believe or do I need to explain it all to you?

If you don't think everyone is judged at the same time, then tell me how you interpret Matthew 25:31-46?


That is based on your assumption that what is described in Revelation 19 occurs chronologically before what is described in Revelation 20, but I don't believe that. The book is clearly not all chronological from beginning to end. Do you understand that much, at least?

I didn't say anything about amill.

I asked if you have any scripture that shows the beast and the false prophet being cast into the lake of fire after the 1000 years?

I posted scripture showing them being cast into the lake of fire 1000 years before anyone else They are judged 1000 years before anyone else The beasts entire kingdom is judged 1000 years before anyone else.