The Third Heaven - Taken into the Future

[marks]

2 Corinthians 12:2-4 KJV
2) I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
3) And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth)
4) How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

2 Peter 3:5-7 KJV
5) For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old (the first heaven), and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6) Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7) But the heavens and the earth, which are now (the second heaven), by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

2 Peter 3:13 KJV
13) Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth (the third heaven), wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Whomever this man was, he was taken into the new creation, but he wasn't allowed to say what he heard there.

Much love!

 

[Wynona]

Praise God

 

[amadeus]

2 Corinthians 12:2-4 KJV
2) I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
3) And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth)
4) How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

2 Peter 3:5-7 KJV
5) For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old (the first heaven), and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6) Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7) But the heavens and the earth, which are now (the second heaven), by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

2 Peter 3:13 KJV
13) Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth (the third heaven), wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Whomever this man was, he was taken into the new creation, but he wasn't allowed to say what he heard there.

Much love!

Consider Jesus here seemingly speaking of more than one heaven:

Joh 3:13

And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

 

[ShineTheLight]

Whomever this man was, he was taken into the new creation, but he wasn't allowed to say what he heard there.

Thorn in the flesh to keep him from being proud. By the way, it hurts and is literal.

 

[keithr]

There is nothing in those passages to suggest that Paul was referring to being taken to, or given visions of, the future. As Albert Barnes' Notes says:

the Bible speaks of but three heavens, and among the Jews in the apostolic ages also the heavens were divided into three:​

​

(1) The aerial, including the clouds and the atmosphere, the heavens above us, until we come to the stars.​

​

(2) The starry heavens, the heavens in which the sun, moon, and stars appear to be situated.​

​

(3) The heavens beyond the stars. That heaven was supposed to be the residence of God, of angels, and of holy spirits. It was this upper heaven, the dwelling-place of God, to which Paul was taken, and whose wonders he was permitted to behold - this region where God dwelt; where Christ was seated at the right hand of the Father, and where the spirits of the just were assembled.​

So the first heaven is the sky, the second heaven is space (the whole universe), and the third heaven is the spiritual home of God and the angels, which is outside of the universe (outside the dimensions of space).

 

[marks]

There is nothing in those passages to suggest that Paul was referring to being taken to, or given visions of, the future. As Albert Barnes' Notes says:

the Bible speaks of but three heavens, and among the Jews in the apostolic ages also the heavens were divided into three:​

​

(1) The aerial, including the clouds and the atmosphere, the heavens above us, until we come to the stars.​

​

(2) The starry heavens, the heavens in which the sun, moon, and stars appear to be situated.​

​

(3) The heavens beyond the stars. That heaven was supposed to be the residence of God, of angels, and of holy spirits. It was this upper heaven, the dwelling-place of God, to which Paul was taken, and whose wonders he was permitted to behold - this region where God dwelt; where Christ was seated at the right hand of the Father, and where the spirits of the just were assembled.​

So the first heaven is the sky, the second heaven is space (the whole universe), and the third heaven is the spiritual home of God and the angels, which is outside of the universe (outside the dimensions of space).

Would you mind posting the Scriptures which show this?

Much love!

 

[VictoryinJesus]

2 Corinthians 12:2-4 KJV
2) I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
3) And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth)
4) How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

2 Peter 3:5-7 KJV
5) For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old (the first heaven), and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6) Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7) But the heavens and the earth, which are now (the second heaven), by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

2 Peter 3:13 KJV
13) Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth (the third heaven), wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Whomever this man was, he was taken into the new creation, but he wasn't allowed to say what he heard there.

Much love!

Have you ever considered why he wasn’t allowed to say what he heard?
2 Corinthians 12:3-4 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God know;) [4] How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Consider who tried to prevent Jesus from saying only what he heard the Father say, and doing what he only saw the Father doing? Who shuts it down quicker than the constant “that is not lawful to say”?

 

[keithr]

Would you mind posting the Scriptures which show this?

The only place in the Bible where the phrase "third heaven" is used is Paul's use of it in 2 Corinthians 12:2. Paul probably used that expression to emphasise that he was referring to heaven where God and Jesus are, not the sky on the earth, nor the rest of the universe. It's confusing because the same Hebrew word is used to refer to the sky (earth's atmosphere), to outer space (where the stars are located), and to the place where God dwells, e.g. 2 Chronicles 6:21-27 (KJV):

(21) Hearken therefore unto the supplications of thy servant, and of thy people Israel, which they shall make toward this place: hear thou from thy dwelling place, even from heaven {shamayim}; and when thou hearest, forgive.​

(22) If a man sin against his neighbour, and an oath be laid upon him to make him swear, and the oath come before thine altar in this house;​

(23) Then hear thou from heaven {shamayim}, and do, and judge thy servants, by requiting the wicked, by recompensing his way upon his own head; and by justifying the righteous, by giving him according to his righteousness.​

(24) And if thy people Israel be put to the worse before the enemy, because they have sinned against thee; and shall return and confess thy name, and pray and make supplication before thee in this house;​

(25) Then hear thou from the heavens {shamayim}, and forgive the sin of thy people Israel, and bring them again unto the land which thou gavest to them and to their fathers.​

(26) When the heaven {shamayim} is shut up, and there is no rain, because they have sinned against thee; yet if they pray toward this place, and confess thy name, and turn from their sin, when thou dost afflict them;​

(27) Then hear thou from heaven {shamayim}, and forgive the sin of thy servants, and of thy people Israel, when thou hast taught them the good way, wherein they should walk; and send rain upon thy land, which thou hast given unto thy people for an inheritance.​

Genesis 1:7-8 (KJV):

(7) And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.​

(8) And God called the firmament Heaven {shamayim}. And the evening and the morning were the second day.​

WEB:

(7) God made the expanse, and divided the waters which were under the expanse from the waters which were above the expanse; and it was so.​

(8) God called the expanse “sky”. There was evening and there was morning, a second day.​

Genesis 1:14-18

(14) And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven {shamayim} to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:​

(15) And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.​

(16) And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.​

(17) And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,​

(18) And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.​

WEB:

(14) God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs to mark seasons, days, and years;​

(15) and let them be for lights in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth;” and it was so.​

(16) God made the two great lights: the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night. He also made the stars.​

(17) God set them in the expanse of the sky to give light to the earth,​

(18) and to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness. God saw that it was good.​

The word heaven is always referring to a place, and the expression "third heaven" is referring to a specific place, not to a future time.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

2 Corinthians 12:2-4 KJV
2) I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
3) And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth)
4) How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

2 Peter 3:5-7 KJV
5) For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old (the first heaven), and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6) Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7) But the heavens and the earth, which are now (the second heaven), by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

2 Peter 3:13 KJV
13) Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth (the third heaven), wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Whomever this man was, he was taken into the new creation, but he wasn't allowed to say what he heard there.

Much love!

Helpful (Imo). Insightful. I’ve never considered it this way. Reminds me “come up here” and
Revelation 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

It also fits to me with Ephesians 4:8-10 Wherefore he says, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. [9] (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? (What is the lower parts of earth?) 10] He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)


Like what you said here “Whomever this man was, he was taken into the new creation, but he wasn't allowed to say what he heard there.”

Personally I don’t think Paul was speaking of himself but Christ. For he said “this one I will boast in and of” Him I will talk about. As Christ entered into the
Hebrews 9:3 And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all;
Hebrews 9:8 The Holy Spirit this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:

Hebrews 9:23-24 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. [24] For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself,(the New Creation; wherein dwells righteousness) now to appear in the presence of God for us:


Hebrews 10:19-21 Having therefore, (his having made a way open unto us) (let us) brethren, (with) boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, [20] By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; [21] And having an high priest over the house of God;


Second veil stands out with what you shared…Christ …Christ went past the second veil and entered into that not yet made manifest …His entering in ‘the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all’


What you accomplished (in OP) does several things. It simplified it. Not an ugly thing. But made it simple for others to understand because it’s generous to help and share for us to understand. Yes, you (the Spirit of God in you) (Imo) helped simplify 1 Corinthians 14:31-33 For you may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted. [32] And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. [33] For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
1 Thessalonians 5:20 Despise not prophesyings.

Another thing your OP accomplished is it takes away all boasting of men….casting down high imaginations… showing (revealing) the way into “the third heaven” is open and a way was made for all through Christ …the message of “if any be of Christ, he is a new creature.”


Heard things unlawful to speak of…
See, covering their ears don’t speak to us of spiritual things.
Hebrews 12:18-20 For you have not come to a mountain that can be touched and to a blazing fire, and to darkness and gloom and whirlwind, [19] and to the blast of a trumpet and the sound of words, which sound was such that those who heard begged that no further word be spoken to them. [20] For they could not cope with the command, “If even an animal touches the mountain, it shall be stoned.”

 

[marks]

Have you ever considered why he wasn’t allowed to say what he heard?
2 Corinthians 12:3-4 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God know;) [4] How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Consider who tried to prevent Jesus from saying only what he heard the Father say, and doing what he only saw the Father doing? Who shuts it down quicker than the constant “that is not lawful to say”?

I've considered that. But I don't know.

Much love!

 

[Johann]

I've considered that. But I don't know.

Much love!

You won't find it in Scripture brother.

 

[marks]

You won't find it in Scripture brother.

That is true, and is simply therefore idle speculation.

Much love!

 

[VictoryinJesus]

I've considered that. But I don't know.

Much love!

That is true, and is simply therefore idle speculation.

Much love!

Idle speculation…agree. But if it’s as your OP pointed out “Whomever this man was, he was taken into the new creation, but he wasn't allowed to say what he heard there.” …

….I’d never thought about it the way you shared. most say Paul was referring to himself entering the third heaven. Then if it’s as you shared…Paul wasn’t allowed to speak of the things which he heard spoken in the New creation??? To me it doesn’t sound like God to forbid Paul not to talk about the New Creation, or things heard…but instead men who forbid it. If it was Christ who was the man that entered the third heaven and was not allowed to speak of those things which he heard…to me it wasn’t God that didn’t allow Christ to speak of those things heard, but men.

1 Corinthians 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

is it speculative? Yes. But your OP is talking about the New creation…then the man who entered into it…it’s unlawful for him to speak of what he heard??

It is just as speculative (Imo)to assume it was God who forbid the man he was not allowed to speak of those things which he heard spoken in the third heaven. Does it matter? No. Expect for me it at least gives me a pause from assuming it was God who forbid the man of speaking of those things which he heard.

After reading your OP a question remains…What is beyond the second veil where Christ entered?

 

[Hepzibah]

2 Corinthians 12:2-4 KJV
2) I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
3) And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth)
4) How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

2 Peter 3:5-7 KJV
5) For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old (the first heaven), and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6) Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7) But the heavens and the earth, which are now (the second heaven), by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

2 Peter 3:13 KJV
13) Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth (the third heaven), wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Whomever this man was, he was taken into the new creation, but he wasn't allowed to say what he heard there.

Much love!

As are many things in scripture, the physical is often an analogy of the spiritual. When we read that God has hands, or that He is like a mother hen spreading her wings, we understand what is meant.

The three heavens, is I believe, referring to the three spiritual states that man can inhabit on this earth. The early church taught this and it was sometimes called the Via Triplex in the west - the three ways.

The first way - the way of Purification, meant the time in the believers life where he is led into a time of severe testing, after the initial heavenly place of being converted out of the world, whereby the presence of God is lost (see Job) and the man sees destruction to the things that he has previously held in esteem. These things have been keeping him from complete submission to God so they have to go.

Of course, this only is found where a man longs for deep fellowship with God despite his idols and hungers and thirsts for this.

Then comes the second heaven whereby the man is Illuminated and understands what he has been through and thanks God for it and the release from deliberate sin which he has been blessed with. He sees the scriptures in a new way and the reason for trials in order to grow spiritually. However, he still seeks to be freed from the 'sin that entangles' him.

The third heaven is the place of righteousness, and we can only speak of it with reverence and respect as it is holy ground and those that oppose it are heaping coals on their heads.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

As are many things in scripture, the physical is often an analogy of the spiritual. When we read that God has hands, or that He is like a mother hen spreading her wings, we understand what is meant.

The three heavens, is I believe, referring to the three spiritual states that man can inhabit on this earth. The early church taught this and it was sometimes called the Via Triplex in the west - the three ways.

The first way - the way of Purification, meant the time in the believers life where he is led into a time of severe testing, after the initial heavenly place of being converted out of the world, whereby the presence of God is lost (see Job) and the man sees destruction to the things that he has previously held in esteem. These things have been keeping him from complete submission to God so they have to go.

Of course, this only is found where a man longs for deep fellowship with God despite his idols and hungers and thirsts for this.

Then comes the second heaven whereby the man is Illuminated and understands what he has been through and thanks God for it and the release from deliberate sin which he has been blessed with. He sees the scriptures in a new way and the reason for trials in order to grow spiritually. However, he still seeks to be freed from the 'sin that entangles' him.

The third heaven is the place of righteousness, and we can only speak of it with reverence and respect as it is holy ground and those that oppose it are heaping coals on their heads.

I get this wasn’t to me. Your post are interesting. To me …this doesn’t go against the OP but it is supportive of it (saying the same thing or close to it). If I understand you correctly it’s growth …yet this growth is still towards entering into the third heaven…the New creation where is any man be in Christ he is a new creature… where our forerunner entered into beyond the second veil, entering into the holiest of Holy before us.

 

[Johann]

What is beyond the second veil where Christ entered?

Biblical Background: The Temple Veil
Structure of the Temple:

Outer Court: The general area where people gathered.
Holy Place: The inner sanctuary where only priests could enter, containing the lampstand, the table of showbread, and the altar of incense.
Most Holy Place (Holy of Holies): The innermost sanctuary, separated by the second veil, where the Ark of the Covenant was kept. Only the High Priest could enter this place, and only once a year on Yom Kippur (the Day of Atonement).
The Veil: The "second veil" specifically refers to the curtain separating the Holy Place from the Most Holy Place. This veil represented a barrier between God and humanity due to sin, emphasizing the holiness of God and the separation caused by sin.

Christ and the Second Veil
Hebrews' Explanation:

Hebrews 6:19-20: "We have this hope as an anchor for the soul, firm and secure. It enters the inner sanctuary behind the curtain, where our forerunner, Jesus, has entered on our behalf. He has become a high priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek."
Hebrews 9:11-12: "But when Christ came as high priest of the good things that are now already here, he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not made with human hands, that is to say, is not a part of this creation. He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, thus obtaining eternal redemption."
These passages explain that Christ, as the ultimate High Priest, entered the true Most Holy Place—not the earthly one, but the heavenly one—through His sacrifice.

Significance of the Veil's Tearing:

Matthew 27:50-51: At the moment of Christ's death, "the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split." This event signifies that Christ's death opened the way for direct access to God, removing the barrier of sin.
Theological Implications
Access to God: Christ's entry beyond the second veil signifies the opening of access to God's presence for all believers. Through His sacrifice, He made a way for humanity to approach God directly, without the need for an earthly high priest.

Heavenly Sanctuary: The Most Holy Place that Christ entered is understood to be the heavenly sanctuary, the true presence of God. Christ's high priestly ministry is conducted in the heavenly realm, interceding for believers and securing eternal redemption.

Fulfillment of Old Covenant: The earthly tabernacle and temple practices were shadows and types of the greater reality fulfilled in Christ. His entering the Most Holy Place is the fulfillment of what the Day of Atonement symbolized—a complete and final atonement for sin.

Conclusion
The "second veil" where Christ entered refers to the spiritual and theological reality of Christ entering the heavenly sanctuary, the true Most Holy Place, through His sacrificial death and resurrection. This act signifies the removal of the barrier between God and humanity, granting believers direct access to God's presence. This profound event fulfills the Old Testament typology of the high priest's yearly entry into the Most Holy Place, establishing Christ as the eternal High Priest who mediates a new and everlasting covenant.

Description of the Tabernacle
The Tabernacle, also known as the Tent of Meeting, was the portable earthly dwelling place of God used by the Israelites from the Exodus until the conquest of Canaan. The detailed description of its construction is found in the Book of Exodus, chapters 25-27 and 35-40. Here is a detailed description:

1. Outer Court
Dimensions: 100 cubits long (about 150 feet) and 50 cubits wide (about 75 feet).
Enclosure: Surrounded by a fence of fine linen curtains, 5 cubits high (about 7.5 feet), held up by 60 pillars with bronze bases and silver hooks.
Entrance: Located on the east side, consisting of a 20 cubits wide curtain, made of blue, purple, and scarlet yarn and fine twisted linen.
2. Furnishings in the Outer Court
Altar of Burnt Offering: A large altar made of acacia wood and overlaid with bronze, measuring 5 cubits square (about 7.5 feet) and 3 cubits high (about 4.5 feet). It had a horn on each corner and a bronze grating halfway down.
Laver (Basin): A large basin for ceremonial washing, made of bronze, placed between the altar and the entrance to the Holy Place.
3. The Tabernacle Structure
Dimensions: 30 cubits long (about 45 feet), 10 cubits wide (about 15 feet), and 10 cubits high (about 15 feet).
Construction: Made of acacia wood boards overlaid with gold, each board was 10 cubits high and 1.5 cubits wide, joined together by silver sockets and gold-covered bars.
4. Coverings of the Tabernacle
Four Layers:
The innermost layer of fine linen embroidered with cherubim in blue, purple, and scarlet yarn.
The second layer of woven goat hair.
The third layer of ram skins dyed red.
The outermost layer of durable leather (often interpreted as badger skins or sea cow hides).
5. Interior of the Tabernacle
The Holy Place:

Table of Showbread: Made of acacia wood overlaid with gold, located on the north side. It held twelve loaves of bread representing the twelve tribes of Israel.
Lampstand (Menorah): Made of pure gold, with seven branches, located on the south side.
Altar of Incense: Made of acacia wood overlaid with gold, placed in front of the veil separating the Holy Place from the Most Holy Place.
The Most Holy Place (Holy of Holies):

The Veil: A curtain made of blue, purple, and scarlet yarn and finely twisted linen with cherubim worked into it, separating the Holy Place from the Most Holy Place.
Ark of the Covenant: Made of acacia wood overlaid with gold, containing the stone tablets of the Law, Aaron's rod that budded, and a jar of manna. The Ark was covered by the Mercy Seat (the atonement cover) with two cherubim of gold on each end.
6. Positioning and Layout
The entrance to the Tabernacle always faced east.
The Holy Place and the Most Holy Place were oriented along the east-west axis, with the Most Holy Place at the western end.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Matthew 27:50-51: At the moment of Christ's death, "the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split." This event signifies that Christ's death opened the way for direct access to God, removing the barrier of sin.
Theological Implications
Access to God: Christ's entry beyond the second veil signifies the opening of access to God's presence for all believers. Through His sacrifice, He made a way for humanity to approach God directly, without the need for an earthly high priest.

To me the curtain being torn in two…the barrier of sin removed …signifies the true curtain of separation being a circumcision made without hands…the circumcision of Christ. A work performed of God in the heart, the heart being circumcised of God: the foreskin covering the heart…or the removal of the veil, where the blind are able to see ….example being even now the veil remains over hearts when Moses is read however when there is a turning to God that veil (curtain) is removed in Christ and the blindness is healed.

Heavenly Sanctuary: The Most Holy Place that Christ entered is understood to be the heavenly sanctuary, the true presence of God. Christ's high priestly ministry is conducted in the heavenly realm, interceding for believers and securing eternal redemption.

Conclusion
The "second veil" where Christ entered refers to the spiritual and theological reality of Christ entering the heavenly sanctuary, the true Most Holy Place, through His sacrificial death and resurrection. This act signifies the removal of the barrier between God and humanity, granting believers direct access to God's presence. This profound event fulfills the Old Testament typology of the high priest's yearly entry into the Most Holy Place, establishing Christ as the eternal High Priest who mediates a new and everlasting covenant.

To me …unless I misunderstood. The man who entered into the third heaven and heard unspeakable things not permitted (unlawful) to be spoken …entered into the New Creation wherein dwells righteousness which (Imo) points to where Christ entered into the Most Holy of all: not the earthly sanctuary made with hands but the heavenly Sanctuary made without hands. Is it an accident, or random this is referred to as the third Temple made without hands, built of God?

My husband corrected me… it’s an operation of God. Through Christ His Son.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Just thinking… talking to my husband. Mediating or considering closely Paul’s experience of the man taken into the third heaven hearing unspeakable things unlawful to be spoken.

To me there is a deep wealth in what Paul shares if we see Christ as the man that entered into the Third heaven. Why I think it’s Christ Paul speaks of, and not himself. First, Paul saying of this man he will boast in. But not himself. Second …when Paul says:
2 Corinthians 12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knows;)
^to me that is profound if who Paul speaks of is Christ. Consider all of the times Christ was with Paul. Paul taught of no men, receiving it not of men…but by the Revelation of Christ. Profound is …Paul saying this man…whether in the body, or out of the body…I can not say. To me that is Paul description of what happened on the road when a light appeared yet this Light says “Saul, Saul why do you persecute Me?” “Who are you, Lord?” …”I am Jesus of Nazareth whom you persecute.” And all the times “He stood with me.” …significant becomes the description of who Paul talked with and seen “this man” who Paul couldn’t tell if…it was a Body or a Spirit. “This man” …speaking of “this man” Paul says “I knew a man” ….is Paul revealing “this man” entered into Saul and pierced through …beyond…the second veil, where Saul “died” “crucified with Christ” when “this man” entered into the New Heavens, the Holy place, the Third temple made without hands—the operation of God—-where it’s no longer I but Christ lives in me? This being a New creature …the New creation “this man” enters into …whether In the Body or out of the Body, Spirit? “I don’t know, God knows”?

How significant is “this man I knew” “whether in the body or out of it, I couldn’t tell”: “this man” entered into the New Creation.

Maybe ignore all that. Maybe Paul IS talking about himself: confused

2 Corinthians 12:2 Lexicon: I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago-- whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows-- such a man was caught up to the third heaven.

 

[Johann]

the New creation “this man” enters into …whether In the Body or out of the Body, Spirit? “I don’t know, God knows”?

Context of Paul's Vision
2 Corinthians 12:2-3 (KJV):
"I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)"

Paul here speaks of a man "in Christ" who had an extraordinary spiritual experience, suggesting a possible vision or rapture to heaven. This passage emphasizes the mystery of spiritual experiences and the limitations of human understanding.

New Creation in Christ
In the context of the New Testament, becoming a "new creation" in Christ involves a profound transformation of one's nature and identity:

2 Corinthians 5:17 (KJV):
"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."

This transformation signifies a spiritual rebirth and renewal, initiated by the Holy Spirit, where the believer is fundamentally changed.

Nature of Spiritual Transformation
In the Body or Out of the Body: The exact nature of spiritual experiences, like the one Paul describes, is often unclear. They might occur while in a physical state (in the body) or in a spiritual state (out of the body), underscoring the mystery and transcendence of such encounters with God.

God's Knowledge: The uncertainty about whether these experiences occur in the body or out of the body highlights the limited understanding humans have about spiritual realities. God alone fully comprehends these experiences.

Implications for Believers
Spiritual Rebirth: Believers, as new creations, undergo a spiritual rebirth that transcends mere physical existence. This rebirth is facilitated by the Holy Spirit and involves a fundamental change in identity and nature.

Mystery of God's Work: Spiritual experiences and transformations can be mysterious and beyond full human comprehension. Believers are called to trust in God's knowledge and understanding of these experiences.

Transformation and Renewal: The new creation is characterized by the passing away of old sinful patterns and the emergence of a new life in Christ, marked by righteousness and holiness.

So, when Paul talks about his incredible experience in 2 Corinthians 12, saying he doesn't know if it happened "in the body or out of the body" (Greek: ἐκτὸς τοῦ σώματος, "ektos tou somatos"), he's highlighting just how profound and mysterious our encounters with God can be. For anyone who believes in Christ, becoming a "new creation" (Greek: καινὴ κτίσις, "kaine ktisis") means going through a deep and significant spiritual transformation. This transformation is something only God fully understands and brings about.

This new life we have in Christ isn't just about physical changes; it’s about a spiritual rebirth and renewal (Greek: ἀνακαίνωσις, "anakainosis"), which come from a close relationship with Him. As we walk this spiritual journey, it’s important to trust that God knows what He’s doing, even when things seem mysterious or beyond our understanding.

Shalom
J.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Context of Paul's Vision
2 Corinthians 12:2-3 (KJV):
"I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)"

Paul here speaks of a man "in Christ" who had an extraordinary spiritual experience, suggesting a possible vision or rapture to heaven. This passage emphasizes the mystery of spiritual experiences and the limitations of human understanding.

New Creation in Christ
In the context of the New Testament, becoming a "new creation" in Christ involves a profound transformation of one's nature and identity:

2 Corinthians 5:17 (KJV):
"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."

This transformation signifies a spiritual rebirth and renewal, initiated by the Holy Spirit, where the believer is fundamentally changed.

Nature of Spiritual Transformation
In the Body or Out of the Body: The exact nature of spiritual experiences, like the one Paul describes, is often unclear. They might occur while in a physical state (in the body) or in a spiritual state (out of the body), underscoring the mystery and transcendence of such encounters with God.

God's Knowledge: The uncertainty about whether these experiences occur in the body or out of the body highlights the limited understanding humans have about spiritual realities. God alone fully comprehends these experiences.

Implications for Believers
Spiritual Rebirth: Believers, as new creations, undergo a spiritual rebirth that transcends mere physical existence. This rebirth is facilitated by the Holy Spirit and involves a fundamental change in identity and nature.

Mystery of God's Work: Spiritual experiences and transformations can be mysterious and beyond full human comprehension. Believers are called to trust in God's knowledge and understanding of these experiences.

Transformation and Renewal: The new creation is characterized by the passing away of old sinful patterns and the emergence of a new life in Christ, marked by righteousness and holiness.

So, when Paul talks about his incredible experience in 2 Corinthians 12, saying he doesn't know if it happened "in the body or out of the body" (Greek: ἐκτὸς τοῦ σώματος, "ektos tou somatos"), he's highlighting just how profound and mysterious our encounters with God can be. For anyone who believes in Christ, becoming a "new creation" (Greek: καινὴ κτίσις, "kaine ktisis") means going through a deep and significant spiritual transformation. This transformation is something only God fully understands and brings about.

This new life we have in Christ isn't just about physical changes; it’s about a spiritual rebirth and renewal (Greek: ἀνακαίνωσις, "anakainosis"), which come from a close relationship with Him. As we walk this spiritual journey, it’s important to trust that God knows what He’s doing, even when things seem mysterious or beyond our understanding.

Shalom
J.

Yes, sorry. I was wrong. I just now paid attention to that also “in Christ”.