The social gospel?

[Eternally Grateful]

I make precise descriptions...and you respond with vagueness. "I have eternal life my friend" you say...no description, no testimony...just have to put my trust in you because you say so.

I could care less if you trust me or not. I am just a man. Trust God.

I was precise. See you can not even respond correctly..

Everything you accuse me of you are actually doing...in reality. In the pretend world you have things right. So we have to trust you. In the pretend world that is.

There You go. No content. Just attack the messenger.. Thats what you do when your backed into a corner.

What kind of person makes you have to trust them and just take their word for it. A cult leader? ?

You tell me, Your the cult leader.

I listen for an actual testimony that shows that a person is not deluded.

I listen for truth.

Testimonies don‘t mean squat. I know many a people that have great testimonies, but have zero truth

But thats right, You do not believe God is in his word.. So the Bible is nothign to you. Its all about self.

When you’re ready to discuss the word. Let me know

 

[Eternally Grateful]

The Church has been divided over the two gospel interpretations for the past 500 years. The debate has been raging since the 16th century, and we are no closer to reaching a consensus today, then we were 500 years ago. It's a very difficult subject to debate, if the worlds greatest theologians and bible scholars can't find any common ground, I don't see how ordinary Church members will either.

I see three gospels

1. A licentious gospel - A no faith Gospel. A belief I can say a prayer and I am saved now I can live however I want

2. A legalistic gospel - I am saved by faith yes, But I also have to work to earn it. We call this faith plus works. Or pharisee doctrine.

3. Grace through faith - I trust that I am a sinner, I am lost. I agree with God in this case. God said he has come that I might have life, Not because I am special because I am not. But because he paid the ultimate price. And I trust him.

I am not sure exactly what you’re talking about. I do believe both of the things you are discussing would call into the last one.

So I won't try to convince you to agree with Reformed Theology, because I can see you firmly believe in Arminian theology.

Ah, You have made the mistake of assuming things that are not true. Why do people do this?

Arminian theology would be number 2 of my above gospels. I reject arminian theology as much as I reject the concept of reformed or calvinist theology.

I would suggest you open your mind, Not everyone who rejects calvinism is an arminian, or a catholic.. There are people who trust in grace alone theology that are not calvinistic. I happen to be one of many thousands who do this

I found this table helpful, it's a list of all the dividing factors between the two gospel interpretations. You might find it interesting and I would like to know what you think of it.

http://heavenslight.org/wp-content/...vinism_and_Arminianism_TULIP_Chart_1_2007.pdf

Sorry buddy. There is no difference in your gospel. Except for what you make in it. Bt of them rely on a faith in God for salvation. Not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Its just one has God making them alive in sin, the other has God bringing the believer to repentance and through faith, making them alive.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I didn’t mean that comment in any other way but this…he thinks he has mastered holiness. If I understood correctly concerning God’s perfection …I took that as being said to be a righteous command lower than holiness. Which I don’t agree with.

I only meant since he is persuaded, I hope he can see it through. At the end of our debates and opinions over who is right and who is wrong, I think of: Acts 5:38-39 And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought: [39] But if it be of God, you cannot overthrow it; lest haply you be found even to fight against God.

To me that says to not worry, regardless of who is right and who is wrong. The ending will declare if it’s of men because it will come to nothing. If it’s of God, nothing will overthrow it. Even with me…regardless if I’m what epi said. To me that says it will be revealed. I’m okay with that. It won’t be the first time I’ve seen the end of a road I’ve taken come to nothing.

I am hesitant to get too certain, and I hope I can help you understand why. 2 Peter 1:4-8
Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. [5] And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; [6] And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; [7] And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. [8] For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that you shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Concerning the word holiness…when I see “godliness” in the above said “add unto you godliness” …I don’t know why that seems like something forbidden. Like don’t dare mention that as something added unto you. Does that make sense? Why does that word “godliness” same as “holiness” seem forbidden? No, I don’t think we add it unto us but God in “seek you first the Kingdom of God and His Righteousness and all these things will be added unto you.” Godliness is there As “Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises”

But I’m not going off on a tangent about righteousness and holiness of godliness…I’m just asking why do things which are precious promises in Christ feel so forbidden like they are somehow dirty to desire? …”perfection” is another one of those words.

Epi is a dangerous teacher. Thats why I stand up to him, because he prays on young people who do not have much faith. He has done that for years in many chatrooms.

If one thing To have differing beliefs, its another to outright deny the cross and the forgiveness which comes based on that cross..

 

[Christian Soldier]

I see three gospels

1. A licentious gospel - A no faith Gospel. A belief I can say a prayer and I am saved now I can live however I want

2. A legalistic gospel - I am saved by faith yes, But I also have to work to earn it. We call this faith plus works. Or pharisee doctrine.

3. Grace through faith - I trust that I am a sinner, I am lost. I agree with God in this case. God said he has come that I might have life, Not because I am special because I am not. But because he paid the ultimate price. And I trust him.

I am not sure exactly what you’re talking about. I do believe both of the things you are discussing would call into the last one.

Ah, You have made the mistake of assuming things that are not true. Why do people do this?

Arminian theology would be number 2 of my above gospels. I reject arminian theology as much as I reject the concept of reformed or calvinist theology.

I would suggest you open your mind, Not everyone who rejects calvinism is an arminian, or a catholic.. There are people who trust in grace alone theology that are not calvinistic. I happen to be one of many thousands who do this

Sorry buddy. There is no difference in your gospel. Except for what you make in it. Bt of them rely on a faith in God for salvation. Not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Its just one has God making them alive in sin, the other has God bringing the believer to repentance and through faith, making them alive.

Every Christian believes in one of those two gospel interpretations, to suggest that there is a third doesn't make any sense. Since one claims we are saved by God alone and the other claims we are saved by a joint effort between God and man. I really can't see how these two opposing views can be combined to for a third option, as they cancel each other out.

One interpretation says we are born dead in sin and unable to receive the Holy Spirit, and the other says were are born half dead so we can utilize our living portion to workout that eternal life in paradise is better than eternal damnation in hell fire. These two views can't be combined to form a third option at all. It's like mixing the truth with lies, it's just doesn't stand up to what the scriptures say.

If you did trust in Gods grace alone, you wouldn't add any conditions to it. You add your faith as a condition, so that immediately falls into the Arminian gospel, because grace + anything is no longer grace, but it's a works based salvation plan.

 

[Episkopos]

Every Christian believes in one of those two gospel interpretations, to suggest that there is a third doesn't make any sense. Since one claims we are saved by God alone and the other claims we are saved by a joint effort between God and man. I really can't see how these two opposing views can be combined to for a third option, as they cancel each other out.

What people have a hard time figuring out is that both have an ASPECT of the truth. Arminius championed righteousness...and Calvin championed holiness. But each relied on a human one-sided understanding

We see this with Pelagius and Constantine as well. What wins out usually is the holiness argument by throwing out the righteousness argument.

End result...no balance. Those who seek after righteousness have no understanding of holiness. And those who seek after holiness have no understanding of righteousness.

And neither extreme will listen to the other to seek for a balance of the two based on the two main commandments.

One interpretation says we are born dead in sin and unable to receive the Holy Spirit, and the other says were are born half dead so we can utilize our living portion to workout that eternal life in paradise is better than eternal damnation in hell fire. These two views can't be combined to form a third option at all. It's like mixing the truth with lies, it's just doesn't stand up to what the scriptures say.

Not so. We will be judged by our works. That is to determine righteousness. Yet we are saved (from sin) by grace through faith. That is to promote holiness.

If you did trust in Gods grace alone, you wouldn't add any conditions to it. You add your faith as a condition, so that immediately falls into the Arminian gospel, because grace + anything is no longer grace, but it's a works based salvation plan.

There are a lot of very confused people in the churches. They defend their beliefs with an obstinate self-preservation. So they are unkind...unrighteous...unloving. and they don't care because they think an accuracy of beliefs is what God is looking for.

 

[Episkopos]

Epi is a dangerous teacher.

The truth is a danger to imaginative religiosity!

Thats why I stand up to him,

IS that what you are trying to do?

because he prays on young people

I pray FOR young people to turn to God with faith.

who do not have much faith.

But a LOT of religious beliefs.

He has done that for years in many chatrooms.

Where I am permitted to.

If one thing To have differing beliefs, its another to outright deny the cross and the forgiveness which comes based on that cross..

False theology is now the norm....hence the state of the modern church. The church is losing ground to the world at an ever increasing rate. And no one seems to know why this is taking place. Sound doctrine is no longer understood so it is NOT tolerated by the vast majority. And religious certainty has replaced a living faith.

 

[Episkopos]

Found this today...

"The devil is not fighting religion. He’s too smart for that. He is producing a counterfeit Christianity, so much like the real one that good Christians are afraid to speak out against it." Vince Havner

Other quotes of his...

"The temple of truth has never suffered so much from woodpeckers on the outside as from termites within.

Most church members live so far below the standard; you’d have to backslide to be in fellowship. We are so subnormal that if we were to become normal, people would think we were abnormal.

Men love everything but righteousness and fear everything but God."

....He died in 1986. Things have only gotten worse since then.

 

[Lizbeth]

I make precise descriptions...and you respond with vagueness. "I have eternal life my friend" you say...no description, no testimony...just have to put my trust in you because you say so.

Everything you accuse me of you are actually doing...in reality. In the pretend world you have things right. So we have to trust you. In the pretend world that is.

What kind of person makes you have to trust them and just take their word for it. A cult leader? ?

I listen for an actual testimony that shows that a person is not deluded.

All who are born of God have a testimony. And Paul said that he didn't consider he had yet attained, and even urged others who were "perfect" to be of the same mind as he. So the race isn't over til its over, no matter what testimonies anyone has and we all need to bear that in mind.

 

[Episkopos]

All who are born of God have a testimony.

When asked, a person should be honest enough to lay it out. Is burying a talent a testimony? I find a lot of people have no testimony to speak of and that's why they are reticent to share.

And Paul said that he didn't consider he had yet attained, and even urged others who were "perfect" to be of the same mind as he.

Paul was not walking in the higher walk at that particular time. Whether present of absent. All part of the training.

So the race isn't over til its over, no matter what testimonies anyone has and we all need to bear that in mind.

That being true, I find that most people think the salvation thing is over and refuse to listen, learn, or be corrected. They are already done as in...it is finished. How many people say..."It is finished" concerning themselves. These have left the race altogether. MANY MANY say that.

You have to bear that in mind.

My point is...why don't you consider what road you are going down BEFORE it's too late?? The race is still on.

 

[Lizbeth]

All of that sounds reasonable and logical, but we have many scriptures which describe mankind as being born dead in trespasses and sins. And other scriptures saying that we cannot chose to believe the gospel or have faith in Jesus, unless God gives us the gift of faith first. The Bible says that God chose to save His elect before the world was created. If that's the case, then salvation is not by mans choice to believe and obey, but it's 100% Gods choice.

Ephesians 1:4
Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love

2 Thessalonians 2:13
But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

2 Timothy 1:9
who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity.

There are around 40 more similar verses, which make it clear that God is the only One who decides who will be saved and who will be left in their sin. In Titus 2 we see the gospel being preached and not everyone believed it, only those who God elected for salvation responded with faith and they were born again.

1 Cor 2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

The natural man, in that verse must mean the man who has not been converted. He will always regard spiritual things as foolish, unless God regenerates him and quickens him to life.

In Acts, it says "those who were appointed to salvation believed." We are "elect according to the foreknowledge of God" the bible says....He saves those He has "foreknown". But it might be a chicken/egg kind of thing...we may never really resolve that question this side of heaven. The bible says "if we think we know we do not yet know as we ought"..........very important not to become fatalistic in our thinking.....God answers prayer and intercession and we shouldn't give up hoping for people to be saved. God was going to destroy the Israelites but Moses interceded for them and persuaded the Lord to change His mind! (as it were).

 

[Lizbeth]

When asked, a person should be honest enough to lay it out. Is burying a talent a testimony? I find a lot of people have no testimony to speak of and that's why they are reticent to share.


Paul was not walking in the higher walk at that particular time. Whether present of absent. All part of the training.

That being true, I find that most people think the salvation thing is over and refuse to listen, learn, or be corrected. They are already done as in...it is finished. How many people say..."It is finished" concerning themselves. These have left the race altogether. MANY MANY say that.

You have to bear that in mind.

My point is...why don't you consider what road you are going down BEFORE it's too late?? The race is still on.

I think people are reluctant to "go into great detail about what they have seen and heard" especially on a public platform......testimonies are as the Lord leads and opens a door for it, when it is appropriate and might help to encourage someone.

Regardless of what anyone thinks about Paul's walk........he distinctly said to those who were "perfect" to be of the same mind as he.

I agree nobody should be resting on their laurels, ever....God kept the Israelites picking up stakes and moving forward, and even in the Promised Land there were battles to fight. Maybe we can think of the wilderness as battling ourselves, our flesh, and the Land of Promise is where after overcoming our flesh it's not about "us" anymore, but then we really begin to engage the Enemy and take ground for the Lord. Yes the race is still on for all of us.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Every Christian believes in one of those two gospel interpretations, to suggest that there is a third doesn't make any sense. Since one claims we are saved by God alone and the other claims we are saved by a joint effort between God and man. I really can't see how these two opposing views can be combined to for a third option, as they cancel each other out.

That may be because you are stuck in a doctrinal issue that is non supported and has no bearing of reality

There is grace

there is easy believism (licentiousness)

and there is works (religion)

if you can’t see three. Then I do not know how to help you.

One interpretation says we are born dead in sin and unable to receive the Holy Spirit,
and the other says were are born half dead so we can utilize our living portion to workout that eternal life in paradise is better than eternal damnation in hell fire.

Your second one is in so much deep error that it can not even looked at with any semblance of reality.

We are dead. Because of sin. Sin MUST be removed (the penalty of) before we can be made alive!!

You have one group saying God makes a dead person alive while still under the penalty of sin. Thats non negotiablely false.

These two views can't be combined to form a third option at all. It's like mixing the truth with lies, it's just doesn't stand up to what the scriptures say.

lol. Your two views are mixing truth with lies my friend. You’re trying to keep your belief system applicable. By denying what it really says

If you did trust in Gods grace alone, you wouldn't add any conditions to it.

I don’t add condition

You add your faith as a condition,

No. it is the work of God I believe.

so that immediately falls into the Arminian gospel,

Nope Because again it is the work of God I believe. Stop trying to make this an arminian calvin debate, it’s not. I am neither arminian Nor am I calvin, I reject both truths as non truths.

because grace + anything is no longer grace, but it's a works based salvation plan.

I WAS SAVED BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH

Not Grace plus faith

You’re twisting the word of God. Paul did not say grace plus faith, he said grace through faith.

You need to open up my friend.

 

[Lizbeth]

That being true, I find that most people think the salvation thing is over and refuse to listen, learn, or be corrected. They are already done as in...it is finished. How many people say..."It is finished" concerning themselves. These have left the race altogether. MANY MANY say that.

You have to bear that in mind.

Yes, I agree with that. That is where many are unfortunately, especially in the west. So many have left the way of the cross and "are at ease in Zion." Israel backslid when she got too prosperous and comfortable.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

The truth is a danger to imaginative religiosity!

well since your whole gospel is imaginative religious ity (look at me God. I am holy like you. So you MUST SAVE ME)

your right, the truth is dangerous to you. Thats why you lash out at anyone who apposes you

IS that what you are trying to do?

The fact you come at me,I must be doing pretty good.

I pray FOR young people to turn to God with faith.

No. You pray for young people to look to self with being Good. And trusting in themselves.

But a LOT of religious beliefs.


Where I am permitted to.

False theology is now the norm....hence the state of the modern church. The church is losing ground to the world at an ever increasing rate. And no one seems to know why this is taking place. Sound doctrine is no longer understood so it is NOT tolerated by the vast majority. And religious certainty has replaced a living faith.

Your just another of a group of false teachers who have been seen since cain first tried to offer God religion instead of faith.

Good luck in your look to be holy and handing God that tainted water for your sin

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Found this today...

"The devil is not fighting religion. He’s too smart for that. He is producing a counterfeit Christianity, so much like the real one that good Christians are afraid to speak out against it." Vince Havner

hey we agree

Other quotes of his...

"The temple of truth has never suffered so much from woodpeckers on the outside as from termites within.

Most church members live so far below the standard; you’d have to backslide to be in fellowship. We are so subnormal that if we were to become normal, people would think we were abnormal.

Men love everything but righteousness and fear everything but God."

....He died in 1986. Things have only gotten worse since then.

And you continue to help the church n its down word spiral of self righteousness.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Yes, I agree with that. That is where many are unfortunately, especially in the west. So many have left the way of the cross and "are at ease in Zion." Israel backslid when she got too prosperous and comfortable.

Just look at the US right now.. Talk about to much being a bad thing, we are so spoiled we do not realise how poor (spiritually and emotionally) we are

 

[Episkopos]

I think people are reluctant to "go into great detail about what they have seen and heard" especially on a public platform......testimonies are as the Lord leads and opens a door for it, when it is appropriate and might help to encourage someone.

One does not go to a discussion board and say...I was saved by grace through faith. Anybody can read that out of a bible. How does one know that? Religious certainty? Indoctrination? It is finished?

The vagueness of these religious slogans doesn't help but hinders others. It is self-justification. And it encourages imagination and speculations. The enemy is there...in the vagueness...to plant ideas in the mind. Our mind-palaces can become mind-fields.

Regardless of what anyone thinks about Paul's walk........he distinctly said to those who were "perfect" to be of the same mind as he.

I agree nobody should be resting on their laurels, ever....God kept the Israelites picking up stakes and moving forward, and even in the Promised Land there were battles to fight. Maybe we can think of the wilderness as battling ourselves, our flesh, and the Land of Promise is where after overcoming our flesh it's not about "us" anymore, but then we really begin to engage the Enemy and take ground for the Lord. Yes the race is still on for all of us.

The race for most, it would seem, is to find the starting line.

 

[Episkopos]

Just look at the US right now.. Talk about to much being a bad thing, we are so spoiled we do not realise how poor (spiritually and emotionally) we are

You should be saying "look at US right now" not just a fallen state like the US. Pushing the spiritual poverty problem onto the outside society is a ploy that washes one's hands of the responsibility for being a light to the world.

So spoiled? The false gospel caters to the flesh.

Emotional poverty? Watch your reaction.

 

[Episkopos]

hey we agree

And you continue to help the church n its down word spiral of self righteousness.

I am like a voice crying in the wilderness..against all the smug self-righteousness that has been a result of a deviated anemic gospel that fills the pews...but not heaven.

 

[Episkopos]

Yes, I agree with that. That is where many are unfortunately, especially in the west. So many have left the way of the cross and "are at ease in Zion." Israel backslid when she got too prosperous and comfortable.

Way to deviate the responsibility back onto the "heathen" society and wash your hands of any responsibility for the state of the world.

Just ONE saint can displace a LOT of evil in a place. But a little leaven leavens the whole batch.