The Smoke of their Torment Ascends Forever

[Earburner]

Right. Agreed. But really, from where you stand on this matter, you're really contradicting yourself, although of course you don't mean to be. If this destruction were actually a cessation of existence, it would not be a forever punishment at all, but only fleeting and even momentary for the one experiencing it.

Dead is dead, destroyed is destroyed. If there be anything of an existence for the destroyed unsaved, it would be the Carbon atoms of their burning, ascending up into the infinity of space.

 

[PinSeeker]

OK, back to Luke 17...

Hm. Okay...

OK, item #1, what did Lot's wife "see"? Ans. She looked upon God Himself.

Disagree. She looked back on Sodom and Gommorah, disobeying/disregarding the angel's instruction not do do so (Genesis 19:17). We don't know why she looked back, because we are not told that in Scripture. Jesus does reference her, telling us to remember her, in Luke 17:32, but in the very next verse, 33, He says, "Whoever seeks to preserve his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life will keep it." This is a very clear warning, and gives us insight into what was really going on inside of Lot's wife that made her look back. In looking back, Earburner, externally, she delayed in doing what she was told to do, and internally, she was missing what she had there... her life... so in a way, she was looking back in fondness and wanted to preserve her life and thus lost it, just in the way Jesus said in Luke 17:33. She is an example to us, and that's exactly why Jesus says what He says there in Luke 17... remember Lot's wife.

Now item #2. Why were they told to avoid traveling on the plain.
Ans. There would be no mountains or hills that could block their vision, if they should accidently look upon the fiery inferno of God's wrath upon Sodom.

Where do you even get that, Earburner? The instruction given to them was, "Escape for your life. Do not look back or stop anywhere in the valley. Escape to the hills, lest you be swept away." Maybe in speaking of the plain, you're referring to what is in this verse called the valley. The issue is not avoiding any kind of land mass, but looking back or stopping or delaying or having any reservation of any kind. "Do not look back or stop..." And again, this is exactly what Jesus is saying regarding the coming of the Kingdom: "Do not look back or seek to preserve your earthly life. When the Kingdom comes, lose your earthly life completely and abandon everything for the Kingdom." It's intimately similar to what He says in Luke 9, that "If anyone would come after Me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow Me. For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will save it."

Yes, our God is a consuming fire,....quite literally.

Yes, but not in a wooden, literalistic sense. God is spirit. He is not literally a flame of any size. :)

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Earburner]

Acknowledged, you have. That's why I'm not asking you what you mean or believe.


Well, not in community, actually, but in another place, yes. Community is a gift to us from God, and as such is a grace. But Scripture is very clear that when Jesus returns, upon execution of the final Judgment, they depart from Him (Matthew 7:21-23; Matthew 25:41-46).


LOL! Well no, you haven't, not that you can't, but that you just won't, clearly. But that's okay, of course. I'm not saying that what we're discussing is not important, but our agreement on it is really not important in the grand scheme of things.


And thus begins the oft-visited subject of the soul... :) I'm going to gracefully decline to go down that rabbit hole with you... :) Except to say that Jesus's resurrected body was very tangible ~ all Jesus's disciples and all the others to whom He appeared would surely attest to that ~ and all ~ all ~ will be resurrected in the same way (John 5:28-29). But some will be on His right in the Judgment, and some will be on His left. When it is done, the ones on His left, having been utterly destroyed (spiritually ruined beyond repair, devastated, rendered utterly powerless to change their lot, and devoid of any hope or comfort), will depart from Him, and obediently so. And so will begin their existence devoid of Jesus's presence and the grace of God, their eternal punishment. The rich man in Jesus's parable in Luke 16 is a very graphic example. Like I said, It's so scary, I don't even like to think about it.

Grace and peace to you, Earburner.

You can decline to answer. I understand.
Yes, the story of the rich man and Lazaruth is a parable, a fictious story, told in order to deliver a single truth.
What was that single truth?

Of course Jesus' resurrected body was tangible.
But is that all that you know?
When the disciples were in the upper room, with the door shut, for fear of the Jews, Jesus appeared unto
them in their midst.
How did Jesus get into the room?
1. Broke the door down.
2. Knocked and waited for someone to open it.
3. He walked through the wall/door.
.

 

[PinSeeker]

Dead is dead, destroyed is destroyed.

Both can be meant in different ways depending on context. To refuse to acknowledge that is hard-headedness, frankly.

No, I didn't call you Frankly. :)

If there be anything of an existence for the destroyed unsaved, it would be the Carbon atoms of their burning, ascending up into the infinity of space.

So you think, I get it. But that's not the sense of "dead" or "destroyed" in the Bible. It's a spiritual death, destroyed in spirit. Yeah, you disagree. That's... okay. :)

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

You can decline to answer. I understand.

Yeah arguing about the soul... that's a bit of a rabbit hole, and really beside the point, despite your thoughts on it. You can decline to read what I said or accept it, though, surely.

Yes, the story of the rich man and Lazaruth is a parable, a fictious story, told in order to deliver a single truth. What was that single truth?

Actually, there are several truths in there... You tell me, since you know. :) (Flashback to Job...) :)

Of course Jesus' resurrected body was tangible.

Yes, and ours will be, too, believer or not. All who are in their tombs will come out, resurrected to eternal life or to judgment.

But is that all that you know?

LOL! Well no... :)

When the disciples were in the upper room, with the door shut, for fear of the Jews, Jesus appeared unto them in their midst. How did Jesus get into the room?
1. Broke the door down.
2. Knocked and waited for someone to open it.
3. He walked through the wall/door.

Sure. God can do anything. Will you and I be able to pass through walls and doors? Well I don't know for sure. Maybe, but I think not. I mean, there probably won't really be any need to lock doors in the new heaven and new earth... :) Want to start arguing about that now? :)

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Earburner]

Where do you even get that, Earburner? The instruction given to them was, "Escape for your life. Do not look back or stop anywhere in the valley. Escape to the hills, lest you be swept away." Maybe in speaking of the plain, you're referring to what is in this verse called the valley. The issue is not avoiding any kind of land mass, but looking back or stopping or delaying or having any reservation of any kind. And again, this is exactly what Jesus is saying regarding the coming of the Kingdom: "Do not look back or seek to preserve your earthly life. When the Kingdom comes, lose your earthly life completely and abandon everything for the Kingdom." It's intimately similar to what He says in Luke 9, that "If anyone would come after Me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow Me. For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will save it."

In the KJV.

Of course I understand the spiritual value of not looking back. As a born again Christian, I am in full agreement of your words.

 

[PinSeeker]

In the KJV.

Yeah, see below...

Of course I understand the spiritual value of not looking back. As a born again Christian, I am in full agreement of your words.

Great!

Concerning the KJV:

"Escape for thy life; look not behind thee, neither stay thou in all the plain; escape to the mountain, lest thou be consumed." (Genesis 19:17, KJV)​

I mean, it's not wrong. It's no different, other than in just language usage, than:

"Escape for your life. Do not look back or stop anywhere in the valley. Escape to the hills, lest you be swept away." (Genesis 19:17, ESV)​

I like the ESV, which was first published in the early 1990s. The KJV... language used is just antiquated and easy to get the wrong idea from in many instances. But the substance is the same.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Earburner]

Yes, and ours will be, too, believer or not. All who are in their tombs will come out, resurrected to eternal life or to judgment.

A few posts back, I quoted John 3:18[18]
(1.) He that believeth on him is not condemned [judged]:
(2.) but he that believeth not is condemned [judged] already,
because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

What most Christians are not aware of is that there are TWO judgments, and both have taken place.

Key words: "already" and "because".
1. The judgment of death through Adam.
2. The judgment of Life through Christ.
By using "the mind of Christ" within you, can you see the two judgments of God in John 3:18?

 

[Earburner]

Yeah, see below...


Great!

Concerning the KJV:

"Escape for thy life; look not behind thee, neither stay thou in all the plain; escape to the mountain, lest thou be consumed." (Genesis 19:17, KJV)​

I mean, it's not wrong. It's no different, other than in just language usage, than:

"Escape for your life. Do not look back or stop anywhere in the valley. Escape to the hills, lest you be swept away." (Genesis 19:17, ESV)​

I like the ESV, which was first published in the early 1990s. The KJV... language used is just antiquated and easy to get the wrong idea from in many instances. But the substance is the same.

Grace and peace to you.

OK, but on a plain, one can see for a very long distance, without any obstacles to block one's vision.
Again, WHAT did Lot's wife see??
She saw God in all His fiery vengeance.
And because she did, she was not able to stay alive!! Indeed she was "consumed" as it was foretold.

 

[Earburner]

Sure. God can do anything. Will you and I be able to pass through walls and doors? Well I don't know for sure. Maybe, but I think not. Want to start arguing about that now? :)

No need to argue. According to 1 John 5:12, for we who are born again of His Holy Spirit, we have "already" the gift of Eternal life. We are just "patiently" waiting for the Day of His Glorious appearance, to be immortalized into His likeness.

 

[Skovand1075]

I always suggest these resources to people who are curious about alternative readings to the afterlife , other than eternal conscious torment, but instead something like conditional immortality/ annihilation. The first is a book. It’s really good.

I’m addition to this book I really like the podcast with roughly 400 hours dedicated to this subject called “ Rethinking Hell “.

Rethinking Hell: Rethinking Hell Podcast | Rethinking Hell

 

[PinSeeker]

A few posts back, I quoted John 3:18[18]
(1.) He that believeth on him is not condemned [judged]:
(2.) but he that believeth not is condemned [judged] already,
because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. What most Christians are not aware of is that there are TWO judgments, and both have taken place.

I'm not sure of the point it is you're trying to make, to be quite honest. These are not judgments, but condemnations. God places judgments because of His condemnation of all sin. However, there is a judgment on all mankind now, because of Adam's actions in Genesis 3. The question for individuals is whether that judgment and resulting condemnation will be lifted, or removed, whether they will be justified by God or not. To your #1, these are those for whom "there is therefore now no more condemnation," as Paul says in Romans 8:1. The condemnation remains intact for those falling into your #2. But the results of the final Judgment will be eternal, and the latter will remain condemned eternally and thus under God's final judgment; this is the second death.

Key words: "already" and "because".
1. The judgment of death through Adam.
2. The judgment of Life through Christ.
By using "the mind of Christ" within you, can you see the two judgments of God in John 3:18?

Sure. This is pretty much what I just said. Except #2 is really a release from the judgment of death through Adam.

OK, but on a plain, one can see for a very long distance, without any obstacles to block one's vision. Again, WHAT did Lot's wife see?? She saw God in all His fiery vengeance. And because she did, she was not able to stay alive!! Indeed she was "consumed" as it was foretold.

Yeah I disagree about the plain, or the valley, or being able to see long distances... It's not about that. And it's not about what she actually saw, but about her delaying and not obeying without reservation. In that way, it's really about faith... lack thereof.

No need to argue.

Agreed. So... why are you... arguing? :)

According to 1 John 5:12, for we who are born again of His Holy Spirit, we have "already" the gift of Eternal life. We are just "patiently" waiting for the Day of His Glorious appearance, to be immortalized into His likeness.

Sure. Well, to be completely like Him, because we are being made like Him... this is the work of God ~ according to the Father's will and due to the Spirit's working in us and through us; this is his ongoing work of sanctification in us. Yes, even now, whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. You disagree, I know, but still, we all exist in one state or the other, on both sides of eternity.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

I always suggest these resources to people who are curious about alternative readings to the afterlife , other than eternal conscious torment, but instead something like conditional immortality/ annihilation. The first is a book. It’s really good.

I’m addition to this book I really like the podcast with roughly 400 hours dedicated to this subject called “ Rethinking Hell “.

No thanks. :) B-I-B-L-E... that's the Word for me... :)

Grace and peace to you, Skovand1075.

 

[marks]

:) B-I-B-L-E... that's the Word for me... :)

I stand alone on the Word of God, the B-I-B-L-E!

:)

 

[Earburner]

Right. Agreed. But really, from where you stand on this matter, you're really contradicting yourself, although of course you don't mean to be. If this destruction were actually a cessation of existence, it would not be a forever punishment at all, but only fleeting and even momentary for the one experiencing it.

The punish-ment of death is everlasting, forever.
The punish-ing of death is temporary, until death is achieved.
"Punishment" is in the KJV NT scriptures. "Punishing" is not.

 

[marks]

We must remember the reality of Isaiah 55:8-9.
God must use our lowly and limited languages of words, in order to convey to us His own eternal thoughts and ways.
I suppose, for an analogy, none of us are at all successful, in communicating with a dog or a cat.

Personally I thing God wrote the Bible the way He did partly for the purpose of forming our minds, as we submit our thinking to His Word. That the imagery and descriptions and all are intended to form our thoughts and concepts and perceptions a certain way.

Much love!

 

[marks]

As I've been reading through this discussion, how very refreshing to see everyone's respectful manner!!

Wonderful!

Much love!

 

[Skovand1075]

No thanks. :) B-I-B-L-E... that's the Word for me... :)

Grace and peace to you, Skovand1075.

This is what’s amusing with your statement.

you say “ no it’s the Bible for me “.
Well me too. For a fact I often feel like
I’m studying the Bible mountains more than your average joe. Such as take this subject….. you think I’ve not read the Bible on this subject? Not only have I read the Bible on this subject but I was interested enough that I bought a big book on this subject and listened to a few hundred hours of this subject being debated by actual professors and theologians. Guess what professors, scholars and theologians use? The Bible…… so I’ve listened to Old Testament scholars, New Testament scholars, experts in biblical languages, and experts in Hebrew and Greek cultures who are all professors over biblical studies. Not just one, two or even 10 professors but dozens and dozens of professors. Been in email exchanges and so on.
All of it about the Bible, using the Bible, interpreting the Bible, applying biblical hermeneutics, and ect….

so when you say , “ no just the Bible “ what you means is just your little echo chamber of a reading that is completely blind to the in-depth cultural connections, word studies and scholarly debates that have been going on for close to two thousand years.

 

[Skovand1075]

So a few quick pointers that is very beneficial for those who have never really actually studied this, and have simply been hand fed a certain view for your entire life. For those who have never read even one, let alone dozens of books from multiple perspectives.
The first thing to help is that you really need to do your homework. You need to pick up books by scholars who are debating this subject. They are quoting and arguing from the Bible. It’s
What teachers do. They teach the Bible. They are experts at studying and teaching the Bible. Read books by people you agree with and those you disagree with to really learn counter arguments and be able to actually defend your position. Half the stuff I see being mentioned has entire books dedicated to that question.

But to get to the things in the Bible that should be considered.

First of all hell and hades are not the same. Hades is the place of the dead. Hell is what we see Gehenna being translated as.

So for the bulk of translations out there she. You see the word hell, in Hebrew it’s Gehenna and it’s the name of actual , earthly spot. It’s a place that comes up several times throughout the Bible. Most noticeably is the valley of Gehenna where corpses were thrown. So the story of hell, is directly connected to this valley. That valley is being referred to through hyperlinks symbolically as a place of judgement. The judgement is death. The external punishment is to be dead with no hope of ever being resurrected.

point two is that revelation is a highly symbolic book. If you are using the highly symbolic book of revelation to create doctrine you have to be aware of that fact. You can’t just say “ devil and torment forever “ is literal but not Jesus riding a horse from space, or red dragons and sea monsters…. All that stuff is imagery conveying truth, not literal events and descriptions.

This one will be a bit long. You’ll notice in verse 10 it says that Edom will burn forever. It’s smoke will rise forever. That it will be desolate. Wild animals taking over it. But we know that Edom is not still on fire. That’s because it’s poetry. It’s war poetry full of hyperbolic speech. Just like when we hear of coaches saying stuff like “ we will completely destroy that team so bad that even their mothers will cry in their graves”. It’s not literal. It literally can’t be literal because the smoke has in fact ended.

Isaiah 34:5-15 nasb

5 For My sword has drunk its fill in heaven;
Behold it shall descend for judgment upon Edom,
And upon the people whom I have designated for destruction.
6 The sword of the Lord is filled with blood,
It drips with fat, with the blood of lambs and goats,
With the fat of the kidneys of rams.
For the Lord has a sacrifice in Bozrah,
And a great slaughter in the land of Edom.
7 Wild oxen will also fall with them
And young bulls with strong ones;
So their land will be soaked with blood,
And their dust become greasy with fat.
8 For the Lord has a day of vengeance,
A year of retribution for the cause of Zion.
9 Its streams will be turned into pitch,
And its loose earth into brimstone,
And its land will become burning pitch.
10 It will not be extinguished night or day;
Its smoke will go up forever.
From generation to generation it will be desolate;
None will pass through it forever and ever.
11 But pelican and hedgehog will possess it,
And owl and raven will dwell in it;
And He will stretch over it the line of desolation
And the plumb line of emptiness.
12 Its nobles—there is no one there
Whom they may proclaim king—
And all its officials will be nothing.
13 Thorns will come up in its fortified towers,
Weeds and thistles in its fortified cities;
It will also be a haunt of jackals
And a habitat of ostriches.
14 The desert creatures will meet with the wolves,
The goat also will cry to its kind.
Yes, the night-bird will settle there
And will find herself a resting place.
15 The tree snake will make its nest and lay eggsthere,
And it will hatch and gather them under its protection.
Yes, the hawks will be gathered there,
Every one with its kind.

the next thing to know is that only god is immortal. No angels or humans. Only god.

1 Timothy 6:16
16 who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.

There is so much more to discuss but this is enough for now. If most even read it. So far few reasons longer posts it seems.

 

[Earburner]

I stand alone on the Word of God, the B-I-B-L-E!

:)

A quote from Father Chapin:
B-asic I-nstructions B-efore L-eaving E-arth
(Dailing Living with Father Chapin)

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