The Smoke of their Torment Ascends Forever

[Earburner]

So a few quick pointers that is very beneficial for those who have never really actually studied this, and have simply been hand fed a certain view for your entire life. For those who have never read even one, let alone dozens of books from multiple perspectives.
The first thing to help is that you really need to do your homework. You need to pick up books by scholars who are debating this subject. They are quoting and arguing from the Bible. It’s
What teachers do. They teach the Bible. They are experts at studying and teaching the Bible. Read books by people you agree with and those you disagree with to really learn counter arguments and be able to actually defend your position. Half the stuff I see being mentioned has entire books dedicated to that question.

But to get to the things in the Bible that should be considered.

First of all hell and hades are not the same. Hades is the place of the dead. Hell is what we see Gehenna being translated as.

So for the bulk of translations out there she. You see the word hell, in Hebrew it’s Gehenna and it’s the name of actual , earthly spot. It’s a place that comes up several times throughout the Bible. Most noticeably is the valley of Gehenna where corpses were thrown. So the story of hell, is directly connected to this valley. That valley is being referred to through hyperlinks symbolically as a place of judgement. The judgement is death. The external punishment is to be dead with no hope of ever being resurrected.

point two is that revelation is a highly symbolic book. If you are using the highly symbolic book of revelation to create doctrine you have to be aware of that fact. You can’t just say “ devil and torment forever “ is literal but not Jesus riding a horse from space, or red dragons and sea monsters…. All that stuff is imagery conveying truth, not literal events and descriptions.

This one will be a bit long. You’ll notice in verse 10 it says that Edom will burn forever. It’s smoke will rise forever. That it will be desolate. Wild animals taking over it. But we know that Edom is not still on fire. That’s because it’s poetry. It’s war poetry full of hyperbolic speech. Just like when we hear of coaches saying stuff like “ we will completely destroy that team so bad that even their mothers will cry in their graves”. It’s not literal. It literally can’t be literal because the smoke has in fact ended.

Isaiah 34:5-15 nasb

5 For My sword has drunk its fill in heaven;
Behold it shall descend for judgment upon Edom,
And upon the people whom I have designated for destruction.
6 The sword of the Lord is filled with blood,
It drips with fat, with the blood of lambs and goats,
With the fat of the kidneys of rams.
For the Lord has a sacrifice in Bozrah,
And a great slaughter in the land of Edom.
7 Wild oxen will also fall with them
And young bulls with strong ones;
So their land will be soaked with blood,
And their dust become greasy with fat.
8 For the Lord has a day of vengeance,
A year of retribution for the cause of Zion.
9 Its streams will be turned into pitch,
And its loose earth into brimstone,
And its land will become burning pitch.
10 It will not be extinguished night or day;
Its smoke will go up forever.
From generation to generation it will be desolate;
None will pass through it forever and ever.
11 But pelican and hedgehog will possess it,
And owl and raven will dwell in it;
And He will stretch over it the line of desolation
And the plumb line of emptiness.
12 Its nobles—there is no one there
Whom they may proclaim king—
And all its officials will be nothing.
13 Thorns will come up in its fortified towers,
Weeds and thistles in its fortified cities;
It will also be a haunt of jackals
And a habitat of ostriches.
14 The desert creatures will meet with the wolves,
The goat also will cry to its kind.
Yes, the night-bird will settle there
And will find herself a resting place.
15 The tree snake will make its nest and lay eggsthere,
And it will hatch and gather them under its protection.
Yes, the hawks will be gathered there,
Every one with its kind.

the next thing to know is that only god is immortal. No angels or humans. Only god.

1 Timothy 6:16
16 who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.

There is so much more to discuss but this is enough for now. If most even read it. So far few reasons longer posts it seems.

Sorry, it appears that many are headed off into eternity with the wrong perspective. Some already think that man will live on forever, either in a new global earth, or an off world place of a forever burning Hell.
1Cor.2[5] That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but [rather] in the power of God.

John.16[13] Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

 

[Earburner]

I'm not sure of the point it is you're trying to make, to be quite honest. These are not judgments, but condemnations. God places judgments because of His condemnation of all sin. However, there is a judgment on all mankind now, because of Adam's actions in Genesis 3. The question for individuals is whether that judgment and resulting condemnation will be lifted, or removed, whether they will be justified by God or not. To your #1, these are those for whom "there is therefore now no more condemnation," as Paul says in Romans 8:1. The condemnation remains intact for those falling into your #2. But the results of the final Judgment will be eternal, and the latter will remain condemned eternally and thus under God's final judgment; this is the second death

The following quote will put it together for us all, of how my item #2 is God's established judgment for us through His Son:
John 11[25] Jesus said unto her, I AM the resurrection, and [I AM] the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
[26] And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

However, for all who don't believe in Jesus, they "ALREADY" have the judgment that they were born with, #1: "thou shalt surely die".

 

[Earburner]

Yeah I disagree about the plain, or the valley, or being able to see long distances... It's not about that. And it's not about what she actually saw, but about her delaying and not obeying without reservation. In that way, it's really about faith... lack thereof.

Did God consume Lot's wife, so that she would not live?
And if so, this is the reason:
Exod.33[20] And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.

 

[Earburner]

Actually, there are several truths in there... You tell me, since you know. :) (Flashback to Job...) :)

Luke 16[31] And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

 

[Earburner]

Hm. Okay...


Disagree. She looked back on Sodom and Gommorah, disobeying/disregarding the angel's instruction not do do so (Genesis 19:17). We don't know why she looked back, because we are not told that in Scripture. Jesus does reference her, telling us to remember her, in Luke 17:32, but in the very next verse, 33, He says, "Whoever seeks to preserve his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life will keep it." This is a very clear warning, and gives us insight into what was really going on inside of Lot's wife that made her look back. In looking back, Earburner, externally, she delayed in doing what she was told to do, and internally, she was missing what she had there... her life... so in a way, she was looking back in fondness and wanted to preserve her life and thus lost it, just in the way Jesus said in Luke 17:33. She is an example to us, and that's exactly why Jesus says what He says there in Luke 17... remember Lot's wife.


Where do you even get that, Earburner? The instruction given to them was, "Escape for your life. Do not look back or stop anywhere in the valley. Escape to the hills, lest you be swept away." Maybe in speaking of the plain, you're referring to what is in this verse called the valley. The issue is not avoiding any kind of land mass, but looking back or stopping or delaying or having any reservation of any kind. "Do not look back or stop..." And again, this is exactly what Jesus is saying regarding the coming of the Kingdom: "Do not look back or seek to preserve your earthly life. When the Kingdom comes, lose your earthly life completely and abandon everything for the Kingdom." It's intimately similar to what He says in Luke 9, that "If anyone would come after Me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow Me. For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will save it."


Yes, but not in a wooden, literalistic sense. God is spirit. He is not literally a flame of any size. :)

Grace and peace to you.

Jude.1[7] Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

So then, from whom did that "eternal fire" come from? Did God create it, or does it generate from Himself. Since Sodom was destroyed by eternal fire, where did that eternal fire go, since Sodom is not still burning?

Surely eternal fire doesn't burn itself out, just because there is nothing left to burn.
Since eternal is the word used, and only God is eternal, at the moment, then it must be Him who is able to consume anything and everything, for the simple stated fact: "our God IS a consuming fire", Himself.

From here, now we can focus on "the Lake of fire"

 

[Skovand1075]

Sorry, it appears that many are headed off into eternity with the wrong perspective. Some already think that man will live on forever, either in a new global earth, or an off world place of a forever burning Hell.
1Cor.2[5] That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but [rather] in the power of God.

John.16[13] Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Well you are more than welcome to counter my points. Anyone can say you’re wrong and toss out irrelevant verses. Counter what I said if you want too, and are able too.

 

[Skovand1075]

Want to know what the lake of fire is? It’s the second death. What is the second death? It means to die a second time. Why does it mean to die a second time?

Revelation 20:14
New American Standard Bible
14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

so we see that the lake of fire is indeed the second death.

Acts 24:15
New American Standard Bible
15 having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

Here we see both the righteous and wicked will be resurrected. So both died once, and now both are resurrected again. They are alive again.

Matthew 25:46
New American Standard Bible
46 These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

So after the dead are resurrected one will go into eternal life and one will go into eternal punishment. What’s the eternal punishment?

Romans 6:23
New American Standard Bible
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gracious gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

looks like the external punishment is death. The wages of sin is death. The wages of sin is not eternal life plus being tortured forever and ever. They die….. and they die a second time…. So what does it mean to die a second time…. It means to be alive, and then die again.

 

[Earburner]

No, they were "booted out of the Garden of Eden" for doing what God told them not to do ~ "You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die" (Genesis 2:16-17). There is absolutely nothing to indicate that Adam and Eve had not yet partaken of any tree in Eden, even the Tree of Life, but only that up to that point they had not yet partaken of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, which God had warned Adam of and told him what the consequences would be in Genesis 2:17.

I sincerely grasp and understand that if A&E did eat/partake of the Tree of Life first, who is Jesus, they would have received the Gift of Eternal life right then and there, without ever having to go through God's judgment/condemnation of eternal death.

However, that was NOT the plan of God, that was established before the world was created. So, to speculate for it is vain, because there is not any knowledge made available to discuss it, and therefore is not knowable.

1 Peter 1[18] Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
[19] But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
[20] Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

John.17[5] And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

 

[Skovand1075]

Why do you think the tree of life granted eternal life and not sustained life instead by being eaten again and again?

 

[Earburner]

Want to know what the lake of fire is? It’s the second death. What is the second death? It means to die a second time. Why does it mean to die a second time?

Revelation 20:14
New American Standard Bible
14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

so we see that the lake of fire is indeed the second death.

Acts 24:15
New American Standard Bible
15 having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

Here we see both the righteous and wicked will be resurrected. So both died once, and now both are resurrected again. They are alive again.

Matthew 25:46
New American Standard Bible
46 These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

So after the dead are resurrected one will go into eternal life and one will go into eternal punishment. What’s the eternal punishment?

Romans 6:23
New American Standard Bible
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gracious gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

looks like the external punishment is death. The wages of sin is death. The wages of sin is not eternal life plus being tortured forever and ever. They die….. and they die a second time…. So what does it mean to die a second time…. It means to be alive, and then die again.

Yes, that is the typical understanding for the annihilist view, of which I am accepting of.
So, if that be the case, what does Jesus mean by this:
Luke.9[60] Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.

 

[Skovand1075]

Well its not actually clear what the exact issue was. There is no consensus. But as for the dead, Jesus is referring to those who don’t love god as being symbolically dead. Spiritual death is a symbolic way of referring to not being part of gods kingdom which is very different from being literally dead. Jesus is using death symbolically instead of literally.

 

[Earburner]

Why do you think the tree of life granted eternal life and not sustained life instead by being eaten again and again?

The symbolic words, the Tree of Life, is representing that of Jesus, the Co-creator with God the Father, of which are of Eternal spirit.
As a result, if A&E had eaten of the Tree of Life first, they would have lived forever, having the Eternal Spirit of God within them, and never would have fallen into the temptation to eat/partake of "the tree of the knowledge of good and evil". However, as I had said, that speculation was not the plan of God.

And so, because of A&E's newly discovered demise, of now possessing the knowledge of good and evil, they no longer had anymore innocence before God, in which they were originally created. God's action was then to bar them from accessing the Tree of Life, "lest they live forever", with the capacity of having the knowledge of good and evil forever also.

 

[Earburner]

Well its not actually clear what the exact issue was. There is no consensus. But as for the dead, Jesus is referring to those who don’t love god as being symbolically dead. Spiritual death is a symbolic way of referring to not being part of gods kingdom which is very different from being literally dead. Jesus is using death symbolically instead of literally.

Yes, to be in sin without having or neglecting the forgiveness of God, is to be spiritually dead to God, as if one had never lived their mortal life.
Matt.26[24] The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.

 

[Skovand1075]

Yes, to be in sin without having or neglecting the forgiveness of God, is to be spiritually dead to God, as if one had never lived their mortal life.
Matt.26[24] The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.

Sure. But none of that contradicts hell is the second death where someone dies. It’s not a spiritual death. It’s a literal death. Just like if I got in a wreck and flung through a window and smashed on the road. Dead.

 

[Cassandra]

Yes, that is the typical understanding for the annihilist view, of which I am accepting of.
So, if that be the case, what does Jesus mean by this:
Luke.9[60] Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.

I was curious and looked it up--interesting thoughts.

Hey, thanks for this great discussion!

Snarfed this :

"What did He mean by this? Jesus wasn’t saying that people who were physically dead should bury other dead people; as you say, that wouldn’t make sense. Instead He was speaking of those who were spiritually dead—those who were alive physically but dead toward God in their souls. We may be very strong and healthy physically, and yet be spiritually dead—which is far more serious.

To us Jesus’ words to this man might sound harsh—but that is because we don’t understand what the man was really saying. When someone in Jesus’ day said they wanted to go bury their father, it didn’t necessarily mean he was already dead. Instead they really were saying that they wanted to stay with their father until he died—something that might be years away. This man was simply looking for an excuse to avoid becoming Jesus’ disciple."

(Where I snarfed it from) What did Jesus mean when He said to let the dead bury the dead?

And another one, from Matthew Henry :"Let him that follow Christ know the worst of it, and expect to lie hard and fare hard."

 

[Earburner]

I previously quoted two scriptures that no one is making a connection with yet.
KJV John 3[18] He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 11[24] Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
[25] Jesus [corrected her and] said unto her, I AM the resurrection, and [I AM] the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
[26] And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Now, I shall include the following verse*, which according to standard Christian thinking, it is not being perceived correctly, and therefore has become a misinterpretation through the religiosity of their conclusion.
Instead of viewing it all as in the future, one should view it as in the present, as how Jesus said it in John 11:25.

* Rev.20[6] Blessed and holy is he that hath/has part in the FIRST resurrection [who is Jesus]: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Of course, what I am revealing here, is not any easy task to accept, mainly because that which is religiously popular in your mind, has taken very deep root, due to hundreds of years of reinforced repetition in the preaching of the popular view.

So now I ask, is not being born again of the Holy Spirit the down payment in "part" by His resurrection, who is the First?
Indeed it is. Romans 8:9

 

[Earburner]

Well its not actually clear what the exact issue was. There is no consensus. But as for the dead, Jesus is referring to those who don’t love god as being symbolically dead. Spiritual death is a symbolic way of referring to not being part of gods kingdom which is very different from being literally dead. Jesus is using death symbolically instead of literally.

Yes, let the spiritually dead, who are physically alive, bury the spiritually dead, who have physically died.
Which constitutes the first death and the second death, culminating in such a person's last breath of oxygenated air. They are forever dead, being the recipient in full of "thou shalt surely die".

 

[Earburner]

I was curious and looked it up--interesting thoughts.
Hey, thanks for this great discussion!

Thank you Cassandra. May God bless you, as you hear His spiritual thoughts through His use of our human words.

 

[Earburner]

As I've been reading through this discussion, how very refreshing to see everyone's respectful manner!!

Wonderful!

Much love!

Thank you Marks for the kind words to all here who are participating. I percieve that it truly is a discussion blessed of the Lord.

 

[Skovand1075]

Yes, let the spiritually dead, who are physically alive, bury the spiritually dead, who have physically died.
Which constitutes the first death and the second death, culminating in such a person's last breath of oxygenated air. They are forever dead, being the recipient in full of "thou shalt surely die".

i just don’t think that spiritual death is the second death. I think we are souls made of body and spirit. When our physical body does, does our spirit. Sleeping. Without a physical body it just won’t remain. The second death is the resurrection of the wicked, who are judged and then destroyed ( body and soul ).

it’s why it says “ don’t fear men who can destroy the body but the god who can destroy body and soul”