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Yes, but you also were trying to speak for me and everyone else. You don't speak for me.
Yes, and only to you, eh? How arrogant do you need to be in order to think that He reveals things only to you and not to any of the other millions of Christians in the world?
I'm passionate about defending the truth from God's word and won't apologize for it.
So, you think the spiritual gift of teaching is not given to anyone and/or is not meant for anyone to use?
Fair enough. It's a little bit ironic that your reasoning, "considering other things written in the same book," is at least on that point the same as mine. That's why I have referred to a number of things throughout Hebrews (in addition to other passages elsewhere).
To all this, I will say three things:
The "son of perdition," which is also translated in other versions like the ESV "son of destruction," which is the same person as Paul is speaking of in Romans 9 when he writes of some "vessels of wrath made for dishonorable use and prepared for destruction," whom God "endures with much patience in order to make known the riches of His glory for vessels of mercy, which He has prepared beforehand for glory," so, unbelievers, and thus those not among Jesus's sheep, of whom He will lose not one. The "son of perdition" (or "destruction") of John 17:12 is the same person ~ group of persons ~ whom God, in Paul's words of Romans 1, has/have exchanged the truth for a lie, worship(s) creation rather than the Creator, and God has given over to his (their) own foolish, dishonorable passions. So, Jesus does not "lose them" in the sense that He once had them or that the Father had once given them to Him and couldn't hold onto and thus lost them; they were always lost and remain so, and this is per God's will.
Fair enough; I would ask of and say the same thing to you.
I would argue that all know the Father's will, but... yet again, referring to what Paul says in Romans 1, many exchange the truth for a lie, and, again referring to Jesus's words in John 8, they do their father the devil's will rather than God's.
Not with regard to His will concerning who are among His elect and who is born again of the Spirit. See above.
Of course. But if God has ~ again, referring to Paul's words in Ephesians 1:4-5 ~ "chosen..." any one person "...before the foundation of the world, that (he/she) should be holy and blameless before Him... in love predestined... for adoption to Himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of His will," that also cannot be thwarted and will come to be, without fail.
Right, this servant is obviously one who has "exchanged the truth for a lie" (Romans 1). We have to hold these things in a sort of tension, Spiritual Israelite, that even in your context here, it is God's will/desire for everyone to obey Him, but it is also His will/desire to give this salvific grace in the form of "mercy and compassion" ~ this grace of being born again of the Spirit and "made alive together with Christ" and thus "saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8) ~ only on those "whom He wills" to do so because they are of His elect (Romans 9:18).
LOL! Well, at least that's a bit better than the "nonexistent" thing you have said before... LOL!
I didn't say you did. You didn't address it at all before now, and only in response to me pointing it out in Acts 13:48.
Ohhhh, I think you should pay attention to what I'm actually saying, SI, or at least to Paul... <smile> You will say you are, and that's fair enough, but... <smile>
Because it's nonsense to think Paul's context changed in the course of two verses. Which I know is your point, but is mine also.
I think, Jay, it's what we often refer to in political circles as... "spin." <smile>
You acknowledge that Hebrews is addressing Christians but you do not acknowledge that a Christian can depart from the living God, despite what it says in Hebrews 3:12-14. As usual, you are only looking at part of the story. We are guarded by God's power only if we do not resist it and continue to submit to it. You never acknowledge that man has any responsibility in salvation, but he does. Otherwise, the warnings given in passages like Hebrews 3:12-14, Hebrews 6:4-6 and Hebrews 10:26-27 are empty threats that we don't need to pay any attention to.
You are trying to change the text to fit your doctrine. Jesus said He didn't lose any except one which means He did lose one. And He was talking about the disciples in particular. John 17:12 is referring to Judas Iscariot who Jesus called "a devil" (John 6:70-71). You don't acknowledge that someone can choose to leave Him, so that's why you don't understand how someone can be lost.
I already did show how I reconcile John 6:39 with John 17:12. You obviously are not reading everything I'm saying.
Yes, but the problem is that you think He looks into the future or looks from outside of time and chooses certain individuals to be saved while, in effect, choosing the rest to be condemned to eternity in the lake of fire, but that's not the case. He chose before the foundation of the world that whoever believes in His Son would be adopted as sons through Jesus Christ.
Why do you believe that God purposely made it so that His desires basically mean nothing? He wants/desires everyone to repent and to be saved, but He purposely made it so that some never can and never will repent since, in your view, they can only repent and believe if He gives them repentance and faith? How does that make any sense?
Right, so you should be happy about that. But, it's very true that you reading comprehension skills are lacking.
<yawn>
No, Paul did not say that. You say that. You are adding the word "because" where it doesn't belong. Stop trying to change scripture.
Right. It doesn't say they were appointed to believe and it doesn't say they believed because they were appointed to eternal life.
People are responsible to accept what they hear by placing their faith and trust in Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior. You remove all responsibility from man in salvation, but scripture does not.
LOL! There is no order of that. It doesn't say they were appointed to eternal life and that caused them to believe.
LOL! Absolutely false.
Speaking of getting the order turned around, that's what you do with passages like this...
So, how do you interpret Acts 13:46 then? Can you address what I said about it?
Awww, are you sad that your attempt to take over the thread failed? Isn't it funny how 2 Amills are arguing about something? It's not as if 2 Premills would ever do that, right? Oh, wait. You and Jerry are Premills. So much for that.
I'm not sure if this is a question, or just a statement, and whichever is the case I'm not sure what you mean. What I was saying was that... some posters... seem prone to taking one's comments and making them into something else entirely, into some caricature of what they are, which is such a disingenuous thing to do... And they think others don't notice, apparently. I think I know what you meant by 'disgraceful,' but would instead say 'graceless'... or lacking in grace to a goodly extent.
What Adam did, Davy, plunged all of creation into this fallen state. We inherit the proclivity to sin, not the particular sin itself. Yes, Adam represented the entire human race, And the judgment that was placed on him and Eve is the judgment we now are all under. There are two types of people in this world at any given time; either we are in Adam, or ~ if born of the Spirit ~ are in Christ.
Adam was the one who disobeyed God. He could have said no, but willingly partook. Regarding Eve, Adam did not fulfill his responsibility of correcting Eve in her deception and thereby keeping her from sinning. He had, obviously, told Eve what God had said to him in Genesis 2:17, else she would not have been able to address the Serpent and refer to what God had said, not to eat from the forbidden tree. So her sin was that she did not obey/submit to Adam as the head of her marriage to him... so she indeed bears responsibility for that... she sinned as well. But still, Adam's sin is the sin that introduced this sinful nature into all of creation.
This is a little garbled, but it seems I generally agree with you here.
Of course.
No, I... acknowledge... that a Christian ~ if he/she is truly a heart-regenerate Christian ~ will not... stay departed from the living God, that God may allow him/her to stray for a time and fall away, but will eventually bring him/her back... "go out searching for him/her and bring him/her home," so to speak. In other words, not fall away permanently... even though he may stray, if he/she is truly of God, he/she will not permanently "go out from us" in the sense of what John is saying in 1 John 2.
As usual, you only look at part of what I say. You only think this, perceive this somehow, but it is not the case.
And there you go giving us ~ even yourself ~ the credit and even glory. I say again that we will continue in our faith because it is in this very faith that through which we are guarded for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time, as Peter says.
I do. God's grace demands our responsibility. Fulfilling it is our joy. We love because He first loved us.
Get behind me, Satan. Verbatim, Jesus says of His sheep, "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one." There can be no mistaking that.
We can all, because we are sinners, be devils from time to time. We are all capable of terrible things.
Hmmm, maybe, but if so, poorly. <smile>
Isn't that what you said? At any rate, I never have and never would say such a thing. Such a statement is essentially to say that God's choice depends on our choice, that His will depends on our will, which is exactly what I've been arguing against through this whole discussion.
Also not what I've said at all. That's just what you've continually tried to pin on me, foist upon me.
But the issue between us, Spiritual Israelite, as I've said, is the sense of that 'whoever.' And we can see clearly in Joel 2:32 and John 3:18 that the 'whoever' is not in the universal sense but in the sense of whoever is included in a certain group, those called by God, which is not everyone, but only His elect. And this is what you will not accept, which is fair enough, but it is what it is.
This is a silly, frivolous question.
Right, but you will not bring yourself to understand this in the sense in which Paul says it. Again, fair enough, but it is what it is.
If he gives them faith, Spiritual Israelite. Faith as a mustard seed. Not "repentance and faith," but only faith, which comes by hearing (Romans 10:17) and is worked in the person because of the new spirit given to the person in HIs being born again of the Spirit. This is what inevitably leads to our repentance and belief.
Luke did. <smile> Luke wrote Acts. <smile>
Directly quoting: "And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed." There is an unmistakable cause and effect relationship there. The Gentiles spoken of there believed as a result of having been appointed to eternal life. Actually, as a result of faith, which comes by hearing (Romans 10:17), which is given in one's being born again of the Spirit, which only happens if one has previously been appointed to eternal life... predestined by God, from before the foundation of the world, to be conformed to the image of Christ. Nobody's "changing" anything, Spiritual Israelite, but there's whooooooooooooooooole lot of denyin' goin' on here... LOL!
I... think I've repeated over and over again Paul's words in Romans 1... "...God (has given) them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, because they (have) exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator... For this reason God (has given) them up to dishonorable passions..."
You keep saying this, SI, and it is absolutely untrue. See above. I've said it over and over and over again, yet you still continue with this nonsense regarding what I have clearly and repeatedly said.
Yes there is. It's really undeniable. But do what you will.
LOL!
Our belief completes the circle, so to speak.
You ask that as if I didn't... <smile> You know, I'll just say this, that what Paul says in Acts 13:45-46 to the Jews in that scene is along precisely the same lines as what He says in Romans 11, that "through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous" (v.11) and "a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in" (v.25). At this point, I don't remember what you said about it, except generally that your take on verse 46 made my take on verse 48 "not make sense," which actually would be true, but I would chalk that up to your misunderstanding or misconstruing of verse 46. <smile> What I've said here should be more than sufficient.
This shows your lack of attention to detail once again. John was talking about people who were "never of us", so that has a different context than what we're talking about. We're talking about people who are of us (are Christians), but depart from the living God as Hebrews 3:12-14 talks about. John said nothing about such people in 1 John 2. So, where does it say in scripture that any Christian who departs from the living God, as passages like Hebrews 3:12-14 indicate is possible, are guaranteed to be brought back? If they are able to decide to depart from God, why can't they decide whether to come back to God or not? Instead, you believe they can decide to depart from God but then God forces (causes, whatever word you want to use) them to come back.
LOL. That's how I feel about you.
Wrong. Can't you at least be honest while discussing this? In no way, shape or form did I give us, including myself, credit and glory. How is it a case of giving us, including myself, credit and glory when I say we are responsible to submit to God? Humbling ourselves and submitting ourselves to God is a case of giving ourselves credit and glory? In what universe? That's nonsense.
You don't even know what responsibility is. Can a puppet or robot be responsible? You call the things that God causes us to do our responsibility. Nonsense. No, that would make it God's responsibility to program His robots to do what He wants them to do.
No one is able to snatch us out of His hand, but that does not mean we can't leave Him. You're always only telling part of the story. Is the following verse not in your Bible, Beelzebub?
LOL! Do you think Jesus would call any of us a devil? Be honest. I know He would not. You are sadly mistaken in your belief that Judas Iscariot was saved. Jesus called Him a devil and said he was lost.
Not maybe. Definitely. Poorly or not, I addressed it and you acted like I didn't. You are not an honest person.
LOL. No, it's what you said. Do you even know what you believe or what you say?
You did. My goodness, are you even for real?
No, no, no. Think! Is it not your view that God, from His position outside of time, can see every individual and He chose certain individuals to be saved from that perspective before the foundation of the world? That is what you said before. Now, you're backtracking?
You don't like it when I show the ramifications of what you believe. It makes you squirm. What is the reason that people end up in the lake of fire? You do not believe that God chose them to be saved and you believe that choice is entirely up to God, so how can you deny that you believe God predestined them to eternity in the lake of fire? Was there any other possibility for them? Not in your view, right? They had no choice in the matter, right? They could not have chosen to be saved because that isn't their choice to make in your view. You say the choice in salvation is entirely up to God, so that means the choice of who isn't saved and who ends up in the lake of fire for eternity is God's choice as well. Why can't you admit that obvious fact? It apparently makes you uncomfortable.
God offers salvation to all people (Titus 2:11), so the "whoever" is whoever among all people decides to accept His offer.
It absolutely is not. This is what people say when they have no answers.
What it is is you not bringing yourself to understand what Paul is saying.
That's not taught anywhere in scripture, which is why you always use your own words to make that claim since scripture never does. People have to choose whether to accept or reject what they hear. You act like faith occurs automatically by hearing, but that is not what it says at all.
Goodness gracious. Yes, Luke wrote Acts and he wrote what Paul said. Hello?
LOL! No, there is not. Only in your doctrinally biased view. What they were appointed to was eternal life because eternal life was appointed to anyone who believed.
That is not what it says. This is why I bring up context. Why would it say that in verse 48 after it says in verse 46 that the unbelieving Jews judged THEMSELVES unworthy of eternal life, placing the blame for their unbelief completely on them rather than it being a case that God chose not to give them faith? Why would those unbelieving Jews be held accountable for not believing if the choice to believe or not is entirely up to God, as you believe since you believe that God appointed people to believe from the foundation of the world?
I agree, and it is YOU doing the whoooooooooooooooooooooooooooole of of denyin' here. LOL!!!
And Paul said they are without excuse for exchanging the truth about God that they knew for a lie. But, your doctrine gives them an excuse. Why can't you admit that? You are so incredibly dishonest. It is your belief that God alone chooses who will be saved or not, so that puts the responsibility in salvation completely in God's hands. What better excuse can these people you're referring to, who fit the description of what Paul described, have except to be able to say that they couldn't help but exchange the truth about God for a lie because God chose not to give them saving faith? So, in your view they end up in the lake of fire because that is exactly what God chose for them since He alone chooses everyone's eternal destination.
It is absolutely true. You just can't stand it when I reveal the ramifications of your belief. How can you say that God doesn't predestine them to the lake of fire when you say they could only have been saved if He chose them to be saved? It only follows that He chose the rest to not be saved and to spend eternity in the lake of fire instead. Why do you deny that? It's incredible that you deny the things that your beliefs imply, which tells me you're not very comfortable with what you believe.
LOL at you thinking your opinions are undeniable. I am denying them, so that proves otherwise. LOL!
You deny what's right in front of your face. It explicitly says we are sealed with the Holy Spirit AFTER we believe.
You didn't. Why don't you tell me where you did? Good luck. You didn't.
LOL. What is this gibberish all about? This doesn't address Acts 13:46 at all, either. You apparently just don't want to address it. I can understand why since it doesn't support your understanding of verse 48 at all. Verse 46 puts the responsibility of believing or not squarely on man while you think verse 48 puts it squarely on God. You should interpret verse 48 in such a way that doesn't contradict what is indicated in verse 46, but you don't seem to have any interest in that.
Ah, "kept," SI. I mean, we can say "brought back," but we should understand that in the sense of being kept in Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit, and because of His ongoing work in us. And that can be found in all four Gospels, all of John's other letters and Revelation, all of Paul's letters, James, Peter's letters, Hebrews, Jude... I've quoted them all, but I love Romans 8:37-39, Ephesians 1:3-7, and 1 Peter 1:3-5 and will quote both, respectively, again here for... the thousandth... see what I did there? ...time:
Sure. But if they are truly of God, having been born again of the Holy Spirit, they will, thereby making their calling and electing sure, which is not in the sense of "making God's grace valid," as if that were up to man, but rather validating and making evident to all men, even to oneself, that it is God who is at work in them to will and work for His pleasure, which would be outward evidence of them having the Holy Spirit.
No, you somehow foist such a ridiculous thing on me.
You don't mean to, no.
What you keep saying, SI, essentially, in all sorts of ways, is that, with regard to God's salvation, God's will depends on our will. That's not true at all, but I would also quickly add ~ because you will immediately say this, because you have before, in history does indeed repeat itself ~ our willl doesn't depend on God's will, but rather our will depends on the spirit in us. And if God does not give us this new spirit, even the Holy Spirit, thereby making us a new creation, as Paul says in 2 Corinthians 5, we will never willingly do His will, but that of our father the devil. So, yet again, it has nothing to do with our will but our spirit, which always drives the will.
It means because His Spirit is at work in us, we won't.
Just totally, absolutely graceless.
Sure they do. And regarding the Gospel, if the Spirit gives them new birth, Nicodemus, then they will freely accept what they hear. But if He does not, then the will reject what they hear. Paul said "faith comes by hearing," but that's surely not to say "In hearing, faith always comes." And, remember yet again the very definition of faith, given in Hebrews 11:1. God gives this assurance (or not), and the Spirit convicts (or not).
No. See above.
You attributed something Luke said to Paul, namely, Acts 13:48 ~ "And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed." Paul did not say that. Luke wrote it. So yeah... hello? Luke documented the Gentiles' actions after they had heard Paul's words/sermon.
That is one way to read it, but it is the wrong way. Again, a word study of 'appointed' throughout the Bible might be helpful. God is the One Who appoints these things, especially individuals to eternal life, and it depends on nothing but His will.
