The Second Death Destroys Man's False Amill Theory

[PinSeeker]

You apparently don't even understand what that verse is saying.

Oh, I understand what you think it to be saying very well. <smile> We disagree.

You see...

I do. <smile> Thanks be to God. <smile>

the part about God working in us and ignore the part about us working our own salvation. That verse illustrates the cooperation between God and man that I have talked about before...

Well, I know very well that you've said that many times, but no, that that verse (Philippians 2:13) illustrates very clearly a cause-and-effect relationship, the effect being that we freely will and work for God's good pleasure because of God's work in us by His spirit. You might notice that little word "for" in that verse. What comes after that word "for" is the effect.

Now, again, that's not any kind of forceable manipulation of our will, but because of God's ongoing sanctification of our spirit, which He put into us (Ezekiel 11:19-20; 36:26-27) at the moment we were born again of the spirit. And this new spirit that we have, which, again, is being sanctified, made holy, made more and more like Jesus, drives our will. Again, by His Spirit, God is working us, making more and more holy, conforming us to the image of Christ, and in this way, our will becomes more and more like Jesus's, which is in perfect accordance with the Father's.

This also explains the fact that in this life we still sin. We have not been glorified yet, but the longer we walk in the Spirit, the more we advance toward that reality. This is how, even in us right now, God is in the process of making us new. We are a new creation, as Paul says in 2 Corinthians 5. But we are still struggling, in this life, to "put off the old man and put on the new," as he says, so in that sense we are being made new. God is doing this, working in us ~ and remember, He Who began a good work in us will bring it to completion at the day of Christ" (Philippians 1:6) ~ so making that happen, sanctifying us in our spirit ~ by the work of His Spirit. And our willing and working is in step with that.

So, I don't ignore anything, SI. Nothing. There is no cooperation in the sense that God's actions plus man's actions equals salvation. This would be a works-based salvation... us meriting our salvation... and even forcing God's hand, even an obligating God to save us, and thereby to ~ in your own vernacular ~ manipulate or even take away His free will.

...thereby rendering Paul's command to "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" a complete joke and nothing to take seriously.

Only to the... untrained... ear. Which is not necessarily to say you have untrained ears... We can work out our own salvation, not in the sense of saving ourselves in any way, but doing so knowing that God is working in us, sanctifying our spirit, so that we will walk in God's Holy spirit rather than "following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience," as Paul says in Ephesians 2:2. And that gives us great comfort ~ or should, anyway ~ because even though we know we're going to fail, at least from time to time, in working out our own salvation, God is in charge, and, as Jude says, "keeping us from stumbling," and sustaining us in our walk with Him, and will ultimately "present us blameless before the presence of His glory with great joy" (Jude 24).

What if we don't confess our sins and we sin willfully and act like it doesn't matter if we sin or not?...

Then that would call into question whether we are Christians or not.

Or do you think that's somehow not possible to happen to a believer?

A Christian ~ if he is truly regenerate of heart/spirit ~ may stray at times, but will come back... because he is no longer of the devil, the devil is no longer his father, but of God, the Father is his Father. At any one time, man's desire is to do the will of his father... or Father, if he is born again of the Spirit. As for the latter, he cannot be "unborn." Again, as Jude says, He will keep us from stumbling and at the day of Christ present us blameless before the presence of His glory with great joy. He Who began a good work in us will bring it to completion at the day of Christ.

Continued...

 

[PinSeeker]

If so, what do you make of this passage...

Sigh. <smile>

Hebrews 10:26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.

Same as above. This is exactly what the writer of Hebrews is saying there, that this would call into question whether we are Christians or not. It is certainly possible to have knowledge of the truth but yet not believe it, not live it.

Of course. I agree with this, but you think I don't. But, I do. Get that through your head.

Well, very good, buuuuuut... <smile>

Man is responsible to choose how to respond to what God did to make salvation possible for everyone.

Well, everyone chooses one way or the other. Which you know, I know, but just in reading this comment, you're kind of stating the obvious... Again, though, yes, in one sense, God made salvation possible for everyone, but in another sense, salvation is actually possible for no one but God, who grants it, and He only grants it to His elect. Regarding the latter, remember again what Jesus said, in response to the question of "Who then can be saved?" He replied, "What is impossible with man is possible with God." There is no "cooperation" in God's great salvation; "salvation belongs to the LORD" (Psalm 3:8, Psalm 68:20, Jonah 2:9) Man is at enmity with God from birth (again, like David, who said of himself, "I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me" [Psalm 51:5] and of the wicked "The wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray from birth, speaking lies" [Psalm 58:3]), and only by being born again of the Spirit is he freed from this.

No more condemnation as long as he continues to have faith in Christ and not turn away from God until the end of his life.

Right, so you're inadvertently making God's faithfulness depend on our faithfulness, which it does not. God is faithful despite our unfaithfulness. This is how great His love is. In so doing, you ~ and all like-minded Christians who say things like this ~ though this is certainly not the intent, inadvertently make God's love out to be far smaller than it is. And, you're adding here to what Paul said in Romans 8:

"There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God."

Hebrews 3:12 See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God.

What a great verse. In this very sentence, the writer of Hebrews says that the one who has a sinful, unbelieving heart is the one who turns away from God. These are unbelievers, SI, and they turn away because, despite maybe having thought they were believers, were never really believers, and thus turn away. Which is what John says to in 1 John 2, that "(t)hey went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us." He makes the same point in a different way in Hebrews 10:26.

Continued...

 

[PinSeeker]

You interpret Philippians 1:6 in such a way that contradicts...

...what you say. Yes, I do. Because it ~ as well as the others I have cited ~ do.

It's not up to you to decide what I'm intending to say.

No, and I'm not; I couldn't do this even if I wanted to. Your intentions are certainly your own, as mine are mine. You do know what 'essentially' means, right? I used that word in reference to what you said, and the implication of that is, in saying what you said, you made a statement that inevitably leads to what I said, despite the fact that you didn't use those exact words and that you would never say what that statement inevitably leads to. This is the case here with with several of things you have said. So yes, I can certainly take what you do actually say and logically make inferences from them and point out the outworking of them... e.g., if what you say is this, then what it inevitably leads to is that, and the "that" is a wrong that even you would acknowledge is wrong.

You say we do it as best we can. Do you think that is automatic that we will do it as best we can?

No. I think I would actually say, SI, that in this life, we never do the best we can. And if we think of this in view of our sinful nature, then, in this life, we can never do the best we can. But, thanks be to God, the righteousness of Christ, which we have in Him, is all we need. That doesn't mean we are perfectly righteous or anywhere close to it. But God, has imputed to us the righteousness of Christ, which is still His and always will be, but is credited to us.

What exactly do you think we are responsible for...?

I mean I can think of several things... God says be perfect, as He is perfect, right? We should be just like Jesus, right? We should, in the words of Micah, do justice, love mercy, and walk humbly with our God, right? Put on the full armor of God, put off the old man and put on the new, run the race with endurance, keeping our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfector of our faith, right? Keep His commandments, right? Love God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength and love your neighbor as yourself, right? Love your wife even as Christ loved the church by laying His life down for her, right? I could go on... But yes, well, all these things you have done from your youth, right? <smile>

and what are the consequences if we reject that responsibility that God has given us?

God disciplines those He loves, and it's His kindness that leads us to repentance. And... back to Ephesians 2, if we are truly regenerate of the Holy Spirit ~ born again, as it were ~ we will not reject the responsibility God has given us, because we are of God, and our will is to do the will of our Father. Will we be perfect in doing so? Well no, but the Spirit is making us more and more like Jesus.

Show me the scripture which teaches this.

Ah yes, this is your response to me saying, "See directly above," where I quoted from two different passages in Ezekiel, John's gospel and his epistles, Ephesians, Philippians, Hebrews, and two or three other places. As if I referred directly or indirectly to nothing in Scripture at all. Just, wow... I mean, of the two of us, who is it again that doesn't read the other's posts? Not me...

... why did Paul and Silas tell the jailer that what he needed to do was believe in Jesus in order to be saved (Acts 16:30-31)?

Because, humanly speaking, that's absolutely true. But the fact still is, he would only believe if and only if his father was no longer the devil but God. But, speaking man to man (or man to woman or woman to man... humanly speaking), yes, just believe. Hey, as long as you're in Acts, look back to Acts 13, specifically to verse 48. There, we read that the Gentiles who heard what Paul was saying (preaching) then began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed. Now, did they somehow appoint themselves? Well no, from what Luke is saying there, obviously not; they were appointed by... someone else. So then... Who? Who appointed them to eternal life? Considering that they believed because they were appointed, then when did this appointing take place? <smile>

No, you do not agree...

Hmm, well now who's telling who what they believe, SI? Are you not hypocritical in saying this?

Continued...

 

[PinSeeker]

You said above that "If salvation depended on man's responsibility or action of any kind in the sense of making it come about, no one would be saved". So, what is the basis for anyone being condemned for eternity for not believing in Jesus (John 3:18)

If they don't believe in Jesus, they don't believe God, and therefore are not like Abraham in that Abraham believed God, and therefore do not have the righteousness credited to them as Abraham did. They're father is the devil, and not God, as Jesus told the Jews He was speaking to in John 8 and John 10. Is that enough basis for condemnation? I say yes...

Well, that's what the text says. I don't deserve kudos for merely quoting the text and not changing it.

You deserve kudos for actually quoting it correctly, which you didn't do several times before that. <smile> And even though the different word you used previous to that was very small and seemingly insignificant, it was enough to change the whole thrust of that one small ~ but super significant ~ thing that Paul said.

No, it isn't. But, we've already covered this 79 times so I'm not doing it again.

Probably a good idea, because what you would say would just get rejected again... <smile>

....none of the spiritual gifts are given to every believer.

Hmmmm, wow. In being given the Spirit, SI, we get all His benefits and gifts, but they manifest themselves differently in each one of us, which is to say some of us are more gifted than others in certain areas. But this does not make any one of us "better" or "worse" than any other, But rather that God gave us all different gifts so that in addition to needing Him (of course), we would all need each other, and in this way all together be the body of Christ. You know this, right? Come on. I mean that's what Paul says, that "To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good." Each of us, while having all these gifts in some measure, probably have one or two dominant gifts, what we are truly gifted with, far above the others. This is why we all need each other.

So, the kind of faith that it talks about as a spiritual gift is not saving faith since it's not given to every believer.

It is, and it is. See above.

...not all believers receive the spiritual gift of faith...

So you're saying there are some believers out there who have no faith... no assurance from God of things hoped for or conviction by the Spirit of things not seen... Hmmm...

...we are not guilty of sin and don't become dead in sin until we know what sin is, according to Paul in Romans 7:7-9. ...
What do you think Paul meant then when he said "Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died." (Romans 7:9)? I don't know what else that can mean except that he became dead in sin once he became aware of his sin. How can someone be guilty of sinning and be dead in sin if they don't even know what sin is?

That's a misreading of what Paul says there. We talked about that. But, you know, since you keep going back to it, I'll go back there with ya... <smile> Paul is saying that before he was aware of the law (specifically the law against coveting), the sin in him was there, it was just latent, but that when he became aware of it ~ when he was saved ~ he became aware of how guilty he was of it, even how dead he was in it. And that's the case with all unbelievers around us even now, they are dead in their sin. And now, having been born again of the spirit, he is still aware of the sin in him, of course, but has died to it, and is alive to Christ, and raised in Christ and seated with Him in the heavenly places, as are all born again Christians, as he said in Ephesians 2. Goodness gracious.

...anyone can recognize the condition of their heart and humble themselves and acknowledge their condition before God and ask for mercy...

...after they are born again of the Spirit, because of this new spirit that God has put in us.

...all people are capable of either accepting or rejecting the conviction of the Holy Spirit in their hearts.

Exactly as Jacobus Arminius erroneously said. And Pelagius about 1100 years before him. They, as do you, terribly underestimate and/ro soft-pedal the effect of the Fall on all of mankind, even all of creation.

To me, that means you are blatantly rejecting the truth.

Fair enough. I think the same of you.

...I blatantly reject your thought regarding what Paul was talking about and saying there as well.

Sure you do. Fair enough.

Where does Paul say that we once walked in trespasses and sins from birth?

In Ephesians 2:4-7, SI, there is no minimum age (9, 14, 27?) given for having been dead in sin. The silence on that is deafening.

Jesus summed up His parable by saying this:

Luke 18:14 “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God.

Right, but He says nothing about when he was actually justified, just that he went home that way. I'm sure you'll "go home" from this conversation thinking you're right... (still thinking you're right)... <smile>

For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”

And this is His complete context, as I said ~ humility. As for the man who humbled himself there in Jesus's parable in Luke 18... he did so, quite obviously because he was already humble in spirit. <smile> He knew of his guilt, which is what Paul was saying of himself in Romans 7, and this was because he had been given a new spirit, even the Holy Spirit, which is what happens when one is born again of the Spirit.

Nonsense!

Grace and peace to you, SI.

 

[Zao is life]

Per Revelation 22, one of the major changes with the future new heavens and a new earth time, is then there will be NO MORE DEATH. That's huge!

Rev 21:1
21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
KJV

Rev 21:4
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
KJV


However, for Christ's future "thousand years" reign with His elect beginning at His future return, we are told there will still exist the "second death", and what it is, i.e., the casting of the unsaved into the future "lake of fire" AFTER... the "thousand years" period.

Rev 20:4-6
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
KJV

Those of the "first resurrection" of course mean the saved, Christ's elect that reign with Him.

Did you notice in that time there will exist the concept of a "SECOND DEATH", and that it is NOT for those of the "first resurrection"??

Use a little common sense now and ask yourself, since that "second death" is NOT for those who live and reign with Christ, then WHO is it for? For the UNSAVED, or course!!

Do you realize what that means for men's false theory of Amillennialism which believes all... the unsaved are destroyed on the day of Christ's return???

It means that Amillennialism theory is FALSE, COMPLETELY AND TOTALLY FALSE!

And all it took was one simple little look at that concept of the "second death" for the wicked and unsaved, which is their casting into the "lake of fire" AFTER the "thousand years" reign by Christ and His elect is over (see Rev.20).

Explain the difference between the second death and this death:

"So then, just as sin entered the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all people because all sinned." Romans 5:12.

The death that mortals die is the first death - Adam's death. The only way to die a second death is to first be resurrected from the first death; and Paul tells us,

"For just as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ, the firstfruits; then when Christ comes, those who belong to him. 1 Corinthians 15:22-23.

There are no mortals mentioned there.

So explain the second death, because the was NO DEATH until Adam sinned. He died when he sinned.

Next up: THE RESURRECTION.

The resurrection of the body; and immortality; and "no more death" go together like a hand in a glove:

"When this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written,

Death is swallowed up in victory." (1 Corinthians 15:54)

Paul was writing to the Corinthians about the resurrection of the body from the dead in the above passage.

"God will wipe away all tears from their eyes. And there will be no more death, nor mourning, nor crying out, nor will there be any more pain; for the first things passed away." (Revelation 21:4).

NO DEATH until Adam sinned.

Next up: THE RESURRECTION when Christ returns: NO MORE DEATH until the second death.

--- 1,000 years ---​

Satan's first deception: of Adam & Eve (Genesis 3:1-7, 11-19) - Satan's final deception: of the Gog & Magog nations of the human race (Revelation 20:7-10)

Adam's death. Expulsion from Eden. (Genesis 3:22-24) - Second death. Lake of fire (Revelation 20:11-15; Revelation 21:8).

Only the faithful remain.

Mortals cannot die a second death unless they have been resurrected from the first death.

There is no way that Christ is not going to make all things new when He returns. Revelation 11:15 tells us that He will begin to reign over the kingdoms of this world when He returns, to the Ages of the ages.

The thousand years and the new heavens and earth commence at the same time. And it's only immortals who have been resurrected from the first death (Adam's death that came to all mankind) that can die a second death.

THE FIRST THREE AND THE LAST THREE CHAPTERS OF THE BIBLE TALK ABOUT THE SAME CONDITIONS AND EVENTS:

Beginning of time: God's creation (Genesis 1:1-31) - Christ makes all things new (Revelation 21:5).

Perfectly good (Genesis 1:31) - Only righteousness dwells in it (Revelation 21:27)

Tree of life (Genesis 2:9, 16-17) - Tree of life (Revelation 21:6; Revelation 22:1-2, 14, 17).

Adam given dominion (Genesis 1:26-28) - The dominion of the last Adam (Revelation 3:21; 20:4)

NO DEATH until Adam sinned - THE RESURRECTION: NO MORE DEATH until the second death.

--- 1,000 years ---

Satan's deception of Adam & Eve (Genesis 3:1-7, 11-19) - Satan's deception of the Gog & Magog nations of the human race (Revelation 20:7-10).

"You will not surely die"
​

Eve The church/es still believe the lie that created human beings cannot die if they have been given eternal life in the Word of God and are immortal.

The eternal life of created human beings is given to us in Christ, who alone has eternal life in Himself and alone possesses His immortality. "You will not surely die" is a lie. If created human beings who are immortal cannot die, then Adam would not have died.

Adam's death. Expulsion from Eden (Genesis 3:22-24) - Second death. Lake of fire (Revelation 20:11-15; Revelation 21:8).
Only the faithful remain.
​

There will be no second sacrifice made for sins and no second resurrection from the second death.

 

[Davy]

Explain the difference between the second death and this death:

"So then, just as sin entered the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all people because all sinned." Romans 5:12.

What's to explain, for those who actually read... their Bible?

The New Testament several times goes over the fact of Adam's sin having been imparted to ALL men. And I referenced what Apostle Paul wrote about that. Either one accepts what Paul wrote as written, or they do not. Apparently you do not... accept what Paul himself said in Romans about Adam's sin imparted to all men.

Are you following Judaism or some other Cult instead? Is that why you appear to not be able to understand Paul when speaking of all being concluded under Adam's sin?

Or is it that since 'YOU" specifically did not do the sin that Adam did, and were not in God's Garden to do that, then you don't like Adam's sin being applied to yourself? Is that it? Is that the problem you are having?

 

[PinSeeker]

What's to explain, for those who actually read... their Bible?

The New Testament several times goes over the fact of Adam's sin having been imparted to ALL men.

Well, the consequence of that sin, not the sin itself, right? Meaning, we are not guilty of Adam's particular sin, his deliberate disobeying of God, but the consequence of that, which is the sinful nature, the deadness in sin, which is synonymous with "at enmity with God," and thus the same judgment placed on all of us from birth as was placed on him when he did what he did. Again, that consequence was for him ~ and is for us, even from our birth (conception, really, as even David says he was conceived in sin and sinful at birth in Psalm 51:5). So all human beings are born in this state, dead in sin, the state Adam took on at the time of the Fall. And this is a death, just as God told Adam would happen in Genesis 2:17... "of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die," and die he did, that very day. So, it is not a question of whether he died or not, but rather the nature of that death. His spirit became dead in sin. And so, that very day, he became in need of the second birth, and as such, all human beings from birth ~ even from conception ~ are in need of that second birth. Right? Well, yes...

So, to what Zao said:

Mortals cannot die a second death unless they have been resurrected from the first death.

This I would rephrase slightly, and say, rather, mortals will not die the second death, they will be exempted from it, because they have been resurrected from the first death. This is the first resurrection, which is what Paul refers to very clearly and succinctly in Ephesians 2:5-6 in saying, "...when we were dead in our trespasses, (God) made us alive together with Christ ~ by grace you have been saved ~ and raised us up with Him and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus..." This is the first resurrection, which Adam presumably experienced some time after the fall, maybe even close to immediately, and we experience when (or immediately after) we are born again of the Spirit. And this is the first resurrection of Revelation 20:4-6.

And this I think we all agree with:

There will be no second sacrifice made for sins and no second resurrection from the second death.

The only clarification I would make is, the second resurrection... which will be of the body... will happen at the time of Christ's return and final defeat of Satan, and just before the final Judgment. Then, as a result of the final Judgment, the wicked will die ~ go away into, actually; that's a much more accurate way to put it ~ the second death, from which, yes, there will be no resurrection... they will remain in it... for... all eternity. <shudder>

Grace and peace to you both.

 

[Zao is life]

What's to explain, for those who actually read... their Bible?

The New Testament several times goes over the fact of Adam's sin having been imparted to ALL men. And I referenced what Apostle Paul wrote about that. Either one accepts what Paul wrote as written, or they do not. Apparently you do not... accept what Paul himself said in Romans about Adam's sin imparted to all men.

Are you following Judaism or some other Cult instead? Is that why you appear to not be able to understand Paul when speaking of all being concluded under Adam's sin?

Or is it that since 'YOU" specifically did not do the sin that Adam did, and were not in God's Garden to do that, then you don't like Adam's sin being applied to yourself? Is that it? Is that the problem you are having?

You're hysterical. False teacher. Accuser of the brethren - falsely. And possibly yet another one who fancies himself a prophet

Maybe one day you will understand that the second death is not the first death. Maybe you will never understand, in which case you will be one of the immortals who will join the Gog-Magog rebellion because Satan says "You will not surely die" and gets you to conveniently forget yet again that only God has eternal life in Himself and eternal life is GIVEN to created human beings IN CHRIST who ALONE has eternal life IN HIMSELF, and HE ALONE POSSESSES His immortality (1 Timothy 6:16).

Created human beings did not and will not possess our own immortality in ourselves (hence the first death), NOR do we possess eternal life in ourselves. Only Christ does.

Immortality that cannot be lost is not guaranteed to the creature. Ask Adam who brought death to us all because he too believed Satan who says, "You will not surely die".

THE SERPENT:

"You shall not surely die."
(Genesis 3:4)​

The Theology of many main-stream Christian churches: It is impossible for those who are in Christ, who have been given eternal life in Christ, to die a second death following the resurrection of the body, because following the resurrection of the body, all will be immortal, "and it is impossible for immortals to die".

The Bible:

(1) "He (Christ) alone possesses (His own) immortality and lives in unapproachable light, whom no human has ever seen or is able to see. To him be honor and eternal power! Amen." (1 Timothy 6:15-16); and

(2) "God has given to us eternal life [zōḗ], and this life [zōḗ] is in His Son. He that has the Son has (eternal) life; and he that has not the Son of God has not (eternal) life [zōḗ]." (1 John 5:11-12).

JESUS:

"The one who overcomes, that one will be clothed in white clothing. And I will not blot out his name out of the book of life,
but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches."
(Revelation 3:5-6).

--- "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death." ---
(Revelation 2:11).

IF THE SECOND DEATH COMES AT THE CLOSE OF A THOUSAND YEARS FOLLOWING THE RETURN OF CHRIST THE WAY WE BOTH BELIEVE IT DOES, THEN YOU WANT TO RATHER START LISTENING TO WHAT THE SPIRIT SAYS TO THE CHURCHES THAN TO WHAT YOUR OWN FALLIBLE MIND KEEPS TELLING YOU.

There is only one God. Life | eternal life [zoe] is in Him and always existed in Him, before the creation of mankind.

Hopefully you will understand, but I doubt you will understand it during this lifetime. You're way to busy "teaching" and telling others what's "wrong" with them for disagreeing with anything you say, to be able to learn anything. Which as everyone knows, is a nice way of saying your ears are permanently shut to the truth about anything because your mouth is permanently open about "your truth".

Have an easy night instead of making it your duty to correct the Bible all the time.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Then that would call into question whether we are Christians or not.

This is the passage I was talking about...

Hebrews 10:26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.

Do you not think that those who "have received the knowledge of the truth" are not Christians? How can non-Christians receive the knowledge of the truth? Aren't non-Christians those who are deceived and do not have knowledge of the truth?

Look at what it says after that passage.

Hebrews 10:35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward. 36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. 37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry. 38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. 39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

The author of Hebrews (Paul, in my opinion) is telling fellow believers to not case away their confidence (faith) and to have patience. Why would he say that if it's not possible for someone to lose their patience in waiting for the promised reward and to lose their faith? He wouldn't. That would make no sense. Should someone who loses their faith and returns to sinning deliberately as they did before repenting of their sins expect to still be saved and inherit eternal life in the kingdom of God? Of course not, right? The author of Hebrews clearly believed that it is possible for someone to lose their faith and end up being condemned. But, at the same time, he was confident that it wouldn't happen to the people he was writing to, which lines up with what he wrote in Hebrews 6:4-9 as well. It's something that can happen, but is unlikely to happen to those who are patient and are careful to work our their own salvation by way of make sure they are spiritually disciplined and staying submitted to God and His will.

A Christian ~ if he is truly regenerate of heart/spirit ~ may stray at times, but will come back... because he is no longer of the devil, the devil is no longer his father, but of God, the Father is his Father.

How do you know that he or she will come back? The author of Hebrews made it clear that it's possible that they might not come back by saying that they will end up experiencing "judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God" if they don't.

At any one time, man's desire is to do the will of his father... or Father, if he is born again of the Spirit. As for the latter, he cannot be "unborn." Again, as Jude says, He will keep us from stumbling and at the day of Christ present us blameless before the presence of His glory with great joy. He Who began a good work in us will bring it to completion at the day of Christ.

As usual, you remove all responsibility from man. You say that God will make sure that we don't stumble. Why have any warnings about falling away then if we can't actually fall away from the faith? What is the point of these warnings about falling away from God and about willfully sinning, resulting in condemnation if it's not something that can actually happen?

 

[Zao is life]

Well, the consequence of that sin, not the sin itself, right? Meaning, we are not guilty of Adam's particular sin, his deliberate disobeying of God, but the consequence of that, which is the sinful nature, the deadness in sin, which is synonymous with "at enmity with God," and thus the same judgment placed on all of us from birth as was placed on him when he did what he did. Again, that consequence was for him ~ and is for us, even from our birth (conception, really, as even David says he was conceived in sin and sinful at birth in Psalm 51:5). So all human beings are born in this state, dead in sin, the state Adam took on at the time of the Fall. And this is a death, just as God told Adam would happen in Genesis 2:17... "of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die," and die he did, that very day. So, it is not a question of whether he died or not, but rather the nature of that death. His spirit became dead in sin. And so, that very day, he became in need of the second birth, and as such, all human beings from birth ~ even from conception ~ are in need of that second birth. Right? Well, yes...

So, to what Zao said:

This I would rephrase slightly, and say, rather, mortals will not die the second death, they will be exempted from it, because they have been resurrected from the first death. This is the first resurrection, which is what Paul refers to very clearly and succinctly in Ephesians 2:5-6 in saying, "...when we were dead in our trespasses, (God) made us alive together with Christ ~ by grace you have been saved ~ and raised us up with Him and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus..." This is the first resurrection, which Adam presumably experienced some time after the fall, maybe even close to immediately, and we experience when (or immediately after) we are born again of the Spirit. And this is the first resurrection of Revelation 20:4-6.

And this I think we all agree with:

The only clarification I would make is, the second resurrection... which will be of the body... will happen at the time of Christ's return and final defeat of Satan, and just before the final Judgment. Then, as a result of the final Judgment, the wicked will die ~ go away into, actually; that's a much more accurate way to put it ~ the second death, from which, yes, there will be no resurrection... they will remain in it... for... all eternity. <shudder>

Grace and peace to you both.

Thanks for your reply Pinseeker. I don't agree with at which point you believe the second death will take place, but I have made it known why I say so.

I will leave you with scripture regarding the human spirit and the eternal life [zoe] given to those in Christ because there are indeed errors in what you say about the "dead" human spirit.

"Her spirit came again, and she arose straightway: and he commanded to give her meat." (Luke 8:55). *

When Jesus raised the young girl from the dead, there is no "dead" human spirit mentioned in the account of what took place, neither had Jesus died and risen again from the dead when it took place.

* The human spirit is mentioned numerous times in scripture, but it's never spoken about as being "dead", nor is it ever spoken of as being "raised from death" (I will quote the scriptures that I'm aware you believe talk about a "quickening" of the human spirit, in a moment).

Solomon wrote,

"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. Vanity of vanities, saith the preacher; all is vanity." (Ecclesiastes 12:7-8).

Eternal life [zoe] is that which in Colossians 1:26-27 Paul calls:

"The mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints", which is "Christ in you, the hope of glory."

Before being born of the Spirit, created humans simply have no eternal life because eternal life is only given to us through "Christ in you, the hope of glory.":

"In the Word of God was life [zoe] and the life was the light of men." (John 1:4).

Jesus said,

"As the Father hath life [ zoe ] in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life [zoe] in himself." (John 5:26).

Only God has life [zoe] in Himself. John taught us that the eternal life [zoe] that "God hath given to us", is IN HIS SON (1 John 5:11).

The hypothesis of so-called "spiritual death" is actually simply the absence of eternal life [zoe], which only God possesses in Himself. God gives us eternal life [zoe] and this life is in His Son and it is given to us when we are born of the Spirit.

QUICKENING

Colossians 2:12-13: Quickened & Resurrected:
"Ye are buried with him in baptism, wherein also all of you are risen with him [synegeiro] through the faith of the operation of God, who has raised him [egeiro] from the dead.
And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him [syzoopoieo], having forgiven you all trespasses."

It's talking about the positional reality in Christ of those who belong to Him.

The words [syzoopoieo] and [synegeiro] used in Colossians 2:12-13 (quoted above) are the same words used in Ephesians 2:4-6, so let's compare it with the other verses talking about quickening (of the dead human BODY):

Ephesians 2:4-6: Quickened & Resurrected
"God, who is rich in mercy, for His great love with which He loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, He has syzōopoiéō (quickened together with) Christ, (by grace ye are saved); and has raised us up together [synegeírō] and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Ephesians 2:4-6).

Remember, the words [syzoopoieo] and [synegeiro] are also used in Colossians 2:12-13, which makes it more clear that it's talking about the quickening of the body.

1 Corinthians 15:20-22: Quickened & Resurrected
"Christ is risen [egeiro] from the dead, and become the first-fruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection [anastasis] of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be quickened [zoopoieo: made alive]."

Romans 8:10-11: Quickened & Resurrected
"If Christ's Spirit is in you,

1. your body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit (of Christ) is your (eternal) life [zoe] because of (Christ's) righteousness.

2. Moreover, if the Spirit of the one who raised [egeiro] Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the one who raised [egeiro] Christ from the dead will also quicken [zōopoiéō] your mortal bodies through his Spirit who lives in you."

(i) The word zoopoieo (quickening, being made alive) is being applied to the mortal body in ALL the verses quoted above.

(ii) The words egeiro, synegeiro and anastasis are always referring to the resurrection of the body in the New Testament. (Each and every New Testament verse containing those three words, as well as the word anístēmi, are quoted in the page linked to in this link).

"Fool ! That which you sow is not quickened [zoopoieo], except it die." (1 Corinthians 15:36)

"..except it die.":

Paul was answering the question: "How are the dead raised [egeiro]? With what kind of body [soma] will they come?" (1 Corinthians 15:35), and he was talking about the resurrection of the body from death/the dead.

"If then ye be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sits on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life [zōḗ] is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life [zōḗ], shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory." (Colossians 3:1-4).

Our past exchanges made me aware that you will probably not believe this or change your mind about what scripture is actually saying to you about the difference between receiving eternal life in Christ at the time of birth by the Spirit, and the quickening of the dead body, but this is here for the benefit of anyone else who wants to check.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No, and I'm not; I couldn't do this even if I wanted to. Your intentions are certainly your own, as mine are mine. You do know what 'essentially' means, right? I used that word in reference to what you said, and the implication of that is, in saying what you said, you made a statement that inevitably leads to what I said, despite the fact that you didn't use those exact words and that you would never say what that statement inevitably leads to. This is the case here with with several of things you have said. So yes, I can certainly take what you do actually say and logically make inferences from them and point out the outworking of them... e.g., if what you say is this, then what it inevitably leads to is that, and the "that" is a wrong that even you would acknowledge is wrong.

LOL. Uh huh. Of course, if you misunderstand what I said in the first place, as I believe you often do, then all this you're saying about one thing I said inevitably leading to other things that can be construed from what I said becomes a moot point.

No. I think I would actually say, SI, that in this life, we never do the best we can. And if we think of this in view of our sinful nature, then, in this life, we can never do the best we can.

So, I can just ignore the part where you said something about doing the best we can then since we never do the best we can, thereby making your statement pointless and not reflective of reality, right? <wink>

But, thanks be to God, the righteousness of Christ, which we have in Him, is all we need.

Yes, it's all we need, but we are responsible to keep our confidence in that steadfast so that we don't end up departing from the living God.

Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. 13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

Why is it that you always leave our our responsibility? You're always only telling half the story.

That doesn't mean we are perfectly righteous or anywhere close to it. But God, has imputed to us the righteousness of Christ, which is still His and always will be, but is credited to us.

That is correct. Our righteousness is as filthy rags (Isaiah 64:6). That's why salvation is not by works. We can't possibly do enough to atone for our unrighteous acts which is why we need God's grace and Christ's atonement for our sins.

I mean I can think of several things... God says be perfect, as He is perfect, right? We should be just like Jesus, right? We should, in the words of Micah, do justice, love mercy, and walk humbly with our God, right? Put on the full armor of God, put off the old man and put on the new, run the race with endurance, keeping our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfector of our faith, right? Keep His commandments, right? Love God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength and love your neighbor as yourself, right? Love your wife even as Christ loved the church by laying His life down for her, right? I could go on... But yes, well, all these things you have done from your youth, right?

Yes, we are responsible for those things. So, what if we don't "put off the old man and put on the new, run the race with endurance, keeping our eyes on Jesus"? Are we not warned about the consequences of that in passages like this...

Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. 13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

Does this passage give the impression that it's not possible for one of the brethren (believers) to not "hold hold the beginning of" their "confidence stedfast unto the end" that results in "departing from the living God" and being "hardened through the deceitfulness of sin"? No, it very much gives the impression that it is possible. But, you think it's not possible for that to happen to a Christian despite what passages like this one indicate.

God disciplines those He loves, and it's His kindness that leads us to repentance.

Agree. Yet, you once again fail to mention the responsibility of man in relation to repentance. God doesn't make us repent. We have to willingly humble ourselves and repent and that is not something that God makes happen. We have to choose how to respond to God's discipline.

And... back to Ephesians 2, if we are truly regenerate of the Holy Spirit ~ born again, as it were ~ we will not reject the responsibility God has given us, because we are of God, and our will is to do the will of our Father. Will we be perfect in doing so? Well no, but the Spirit is making us more and more like Jesus.

What if a Christian is not spiritually disciplined and is behaving immaturely like the "babes in Christ" that Paul refers to in 1 Corinthians 3? Not praying regularly, not reading their Bible regularly, not having fellowship with other believers regularly, causing "envying, and strife, and divisions" and such. Are they being made more and more like Jesus? Do they have no responsibility in that process? If those "babes in Christ" never grow in the faith and don't become more like Jesus, are they not in danger of being among those that develop "an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God" and not holding the beginning of their confidence stedfast unto the end?

Ah yes, this is your response to me saying, "See directly above," where I quoted from two different passages in Ezekiel, John's gospel and his epistles, Ephesians, Philippians, Hebrews, and two or three other places. As if I referred directly or indirectly to nothing in Scripture at all. Just, wow... I mean, of the two of us, who is it again that doesn't read the other's posts? Not me...

I was responding to a statement you made that was not accompanied by any scripture, so I wondered which scriptures in particular you use to support that particular statement. I was obviously not saying that you never refer to scripture. I read everything you say and you know it. I often respond to almost every comment you make in your posts, so you know I'm reading everything you're saying.

Because, humanly speaking, that's absolutely true.

This was your response to my question "why did Paul and Silas tell the jailer that what he needed to do was believe in Jesus in order to be saved (Acts 16:30-31)?". What does this response even mean?

From the perspective of your view, if the jailer was not chosen from the foundation of the world to be saved, then Paul and Silas would have been lying to him to tell him that he could believe in the Lord Jesus and be saved. In your view, no, he could not because he wasn't elect. If what you believe was true, then we should not tell any person who asks us what they should do to be saved that they need to believe in Jesus to be saved because it makes no sense to tell someone to do something that they can't do. From your perspective, it would make more sense to tell the person that there is nothing they can do and they should just hope that they are one of the ones who God will give faith and repentance to and that they one day will find themselves repenting and having faith out of the blue when God gives it to them.

But the fact still is, he would only believe if and only if his father was no longer the devil but God.

Is there anything the jailer himself could do to be saved? That is what he was asking. Paul and Silas said he needed to believe in the Lord Jesus. So, the answer to the jailer's question about what he (the jailer) had to do to be saved was to believe in Jesus. That was his responsibility.

You, in contrast, say that people are not required to do anything at all in order to be saved and, instead, they are given faith and repentance by God which they, with 100% certainty, will do because God, in essence, makes them do it like a robot is made to do certain things by its programmer. The robot can't decide to go against what it is programmed to do. So, it's not really the robot doing it. Similarly, you cannot tell a person that what they must do is believe in Jesus to be saved because, in your view, it's not really them doing it. And, again, you should not tell someone who you don't know is elect or not that they need to believe in the Lord Jesus to be saved. Telling a person that they can do something that they can't actually do to be saved would be a lie.

But, speaking man to man (or man to woman or woman to man... humanly speaking), yes, just believe.

But, what if the jailer was not elect, which was possible. Why tell him to "just believe" if he can't believe without God giving him faith? Why tell someone to do something that they very possibly can't even do?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Hey, as long as you're in Acts, look back to Acts 13, specifically to verse 48.

Oh boy, here we go. LOL. Another verse that I need to correct your intepretation of. This is getting tiresome.

There, we read that the Gentiles who heard what Paul was saying (preaching) then began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed. Now, did they somehow appoint themselves? Well no, from what Luke is saying there, obviously not; they were appointed by... someone else. So then... Who? Who appointed them to eternal life? Considering that they believed because they were appointed, then when did this appointing take place? <smile>

You are butchering that verse because of doctrinal bias. Let's take a closer look at it in context.

Acts 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles. 47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth. 48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

In your view, you think verse 48 is saying that they believed because they were appointed to believe unto eternal life. But, that's not what it's saying. That doesn't line up with what is written in the previous verses, which you unsurprisingly did not take into account to help see the context of that verse.

Notice in verse 46 that the Jews who were there and did not believe what Paul and Barnabas were preaching judged themselves unworthy of everlasting life. In your view, it is not unbelievers who judge themselves unworthy of eternal life, it was God who judged them as being unworthy of eternal life before the foundation of the world. The fact that people judge themselves unworthy of everlasting life rather than God making that determination for them before the foundation of the world shows that man has responsibility in salvation.

Those who are not saved are not saved because of choosing to reject the gospel. In your view they are not judged unworthy of everlasting life by anything they do just as believers are not saved by anything they do because free will has nothing to do with salvation in your view. But, that doesn't line up with scriptures like Acts 13:46 which indicates that unbelievers are condemned because of their own choice and not because God chose not to save them, as you believe.

So, keeping Acts 13:46 in mind, let's look at verse 48 while making sure we don't interpret it in such a way that contradicts verse 46. Does verse 48 say that the Gentiles who Paul and Barnabas were preaching to were appointed to believe? No, it does not. It says they were appointed to eternal life and they believed. In order to not contradict verse 46 and other scripture, we cannot conclude that verse 48 is saying that they were appointed to believe because verse 46 makes it clear that the decision of whether to believe or not is up to each person and is not something that God predetermined since those unbelievers judged themselves to be unworthy of eternal life rather than God judging them to be unworthy. So, the only way to interpret verse 48 in a way that does not contradict verse 46 and other scripture it to conclude that God predetermined that anyone who believes is appointed to eternal life rather than it being the case that he appointed certain individuals to believe.

Hmm, well now who's telling who what they believe, SI? Are you not hypocritical in saying this?

That depends on whether what you said is really what you believe or not. I believe that you sometimes say things that don't match up with your overall beliefs. I don't think I do that. In this case, I don't believe I was wrong in indicating that what you said is not reflective of what you actually believe. Can you prove otherwise? If you can, then I will acknowledge to being hypocritical in saying that.

 

[PinSeeker]

This is the passage I was talking about...

Hebrews 10:26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.

Do you not think that those who "have received the knowledge of the truth" are not Christians?

Not necessarily, no. You will probably agree with at least this, that it is possible to know what the Bible says, and even understand it very well, and even know all about the Gospel and about Jesus... have a mere intellectual knowledge of the truth... but that does not necessarily indicate a person's having been saved, having been born again of the Spirit. It is still possible for the person to... well, in the words of Paul to the Corinthians... still regard the Gospel as foolishness.

And... look again at this very verse. I say that it is possible to receive... obtain... full knowledge of the truth and still "deliberately keep on sinning." In what he's saying there, the writer of Hebrews himself is implying that very thing. And these are the people he is talking about specifically in this passage. He's actually contrasting those who do not have faith with those who do here, and he turns back fully to those who have faith just a sentence or two later and especially in Hebrews 11. So, there are two senses of this receiving full knowledge of the truth, and they are mutually exclusive, of course, that one can have full intellectual knowledge of the truth but still reject it as foolishness, in which case they do not have faith (the assurance of God), or that one can have full knowledge of the truth in the sense of accepting and even loving God's Word, in which case they do have faith (the assurance of God). In the former sense, the person is not a Christian, not born again of the Spirit, but in the latter sense, he is. Remember what Paul says in Romans 1, that unbelievers have exchanged the truth for a lie, so I would submit to you that for one to have done this, they must first have had some modicum of knowledge of the truth, else they could not exchange it for anything... To exchange one thing for something else, one must first have had that one thing.

Why would he say that if it's not possible for someone to lose their patience in waiting for the promised reward and to lose their faith? He wouldn't. That would make no sense.

Ah, well, good point, but I would submit to you that Paul, in writing what he wrote, knew that not everyone who read and/or heard his words would actually be a heart-regenerate Christian. Even today, any preacher preaching a sermon in a Bible-believing church should know that, be fully aware of that.

Should someone who loses their faith and returns to sinning deliberately...

Again I say, if one truly has God-given faith, he or she will not return to sinning deliberately. And if we see some "go back" to sinning deliberately, then if that pattern holds ~ and it may not; even as Christians we can backslide from time to time, and God can even remove His countenance from us from time to time in administering discipline, which He does with those He loves ~ if that pattern holds, then we can be sure that that person was never "of us," was never really born again of the Spirit. Which is what I've said many times, quoting John in 1 John 2:18-19... "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us."

How do you know that he or she will come back?

If they are born again of the Spirit, they will come back. God will bring them back. He who began a good work in any one will bring it to completion at the day of Christ. And, Jesus says it Himself: "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that I should lose nothing of all that He has given Me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in Him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day" (John 6)

As usual, you remove all responsibility from man.

Not at all.

You say that God will make sure that we don't stumble. Why have any warnings about falling away then if we can't actually fall away from the faith? What is the point of these warnings about falling away from God and about willfully sinning, resulting in condemnation if it's not something that can actually happen?

See above. I just answered these questions in this very post. I'll add this, that even those who think of themselves as believers, as Christians, it is possible ~ possible ~ they could be deceiving themselves. Remember what James says, to be not just hearers but doers of the Word ~ there's your very real human responsibilty ~ that if we are hearers only and not doers, we could very well be deceiving ourselves.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

LOL. Uh huh. Of course, if you misunderstand what I said in the first place...

No, you just don't like what I said about what you did say and the outworking of that. And that's fair. I mean, I wasn't trying to offend you; never would I do that. But... it is what it is.

So, I can just ignore...

Anything you want to, yes. You're your own person. <smile>

Yes, it's all we need, but...

No buts... The faith of a mustard seed. That's all. The rest will follow. Even our responsibility. Because we have a new spirit, put in us by God. To all you say, it can be boiled down to that.

Why is it that you always leave our our responsibility?

I do no such thing; see above.

I was responding to a statement you made that was not accompanied by any scripture...

You know Scripture at least pretty well, so there are many times when I don't feel it necessary to include Scriptural references.

From the perspective of your view, if the jailer was not chosen from the foundation of the world to be saved...

But he obviously was. So that renders what you said after this moot, really. If he wasn't, then why would it be included in Scripture, even a letter written by Paul, which is inspired by the Holy Spirit? So, I say he was, absolutely, without a doubt.

You, in contrast, say that people are not required to do anything at all in order to be saved and, instead, they are given faith and repentance by God which they, with 100% certainty, will do because God...

Correct to here, but what came after this is... well, silly.

...in essence, makes them do it like a robot is made to do certain things by its programmer.

At any one time, we will do according to the spirit we have.

Oh boy, here we go. LOL. Another verse that I need to correct your intepretation of.

LOL!

You are butchering that verse because of doctrinal bias.

Okay, well, I say you do. We can leave it at that. Hey, using a concordance, do a wordsearch of 'appointed.' Maybe you have, so, do it again if you are so inclined. It's... very, very interesting.

That depends on whether what you said is really what you believe or not.

LOL!

I believe that you sometimes say things that don't match up with your overall beliefs.

Fair enough. But you say that everything I say is gibberish and nonsense, so how can you evan make such an assessment as this? LOL!

I don't think I do that.

Of course not. <smile>

In this case, I don't believe I was wrong in indicating that what you said is not reflective of what you actually believe. Can you prove otherwise? If you can, then I will acknowledge to being hypocritical in saying that.

<chuckles>

Grace and peace to you, Spiritual Israelite.

 

[PinSeeker]

Thanks for your reply Pinseeker.

You're welcome; thank you for yours.

I don't agree with at which point you believe the second death will take place, but I have made it known why I say so.

Yes, you have. Fair enough.

It's talking about the positional reality in Christ of those who belong to Him.

Yes, positional in the sense that at that point we are in Christ, raised with Him, and seated with Him in the heavenly places, as this same Paul says in Ephesians 2, after formerly being dead in our sin. Paul says the same things, pretty much, in all his letters.

Our past exchanges made me aware that you will probably not believe this or change your mind about what scripture is actually saying...

Right, nor you. Well, the Spirit moves... is at work in us... so neither one of us can say that about the other, really.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Not necessarily, no. You will probably agree with at least this, that it is possible to know what the Bible says, and even understand it very well, and even know all about the Gospel and about Jesus... have a mere intellectual knowledge of the truth... but that does not necessarily indicate a person's having been saved, having been born again of the Spirit. It is still possible for the person to... well, in the words of Paul to the Corinthians... still regard the Gospel as foolishness.

Yes, that is possible, but I don't see that as being the context of the passage, especially when you consider other things written in the same book. I don't see any reason to think that the verse is talking about anything except for the knowledge, understanding and acceptance of the truth, which only applies to Christians.

How about this passage which also warns Christians about falling away.

Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. 13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

You don't think those who receive the knowledge of the truth refers to Christians in Hebrews 10:26-27. Would you also try to say that the "brethren" referenced here are not Christians?

The brethren being addressed there are also addressed here:

Hebrews 3:1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

Clearly, the Hebrews 3:12-14 passage is a message directed towards Christians since only Christians would be called "holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling" and it is warning them about the importance of being careful to "hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end" and not developing "an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God" and not being "hardened through the deceitfulness of sin". Your doctrine makes it so that Christians do not need to be concerned with such warnings because your doctrine says that the warnings are not being made to Christians.

This is part of the reason why I have so much disdain for your doctrine because it does not encourage Christians to be careful about keeping their faith and about being spiritually disciplined because it says that they are saved and will remain saved no matter what they do or what they believe. It encourages complacence instead because it says that man has no responsibility in maintaining his faith. Despite scripture telling us to be careful about keeping our faith until the end (of our lives or of the age, whichever comes first).

Ah, well, good point, but I would submit to you that Paul, in writing what he wrote, knew that not everyone who read and/or heard his words would actually be a heart-regenerate Christian. Even today, any preacher preaching a sermon in a Bible-believing church should know that, be fully aware of that.

Of course, anyone can potentially read his words, but his message was directed specifically and only to Christians. You are trying to get around that. This is the passage I was commenting on in relation to our need to have patience and not lose our faith.

Hebrews 10:35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward. 36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. 37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry. 38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. 39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

How can someone who doesn't have faith in the first place "draw back" by losing their patience and their faith?

Again I say, if one truly has God-given faith, he or she will not return to sinning deliberately.

Yet, Hebrews 10:26-27 says that is possible, so who should I believe? Paul or you? I will believe Paul over you every time, of course.

If they are born again of the Spirit, they will come back. God will bring them back. He who began a good work in any one will bring it to completion at the day of Christ.

Again, you're only telling part of the story while ignoring man's responsibility. That verse is conditional upon the person keeping their faith. We know God will do His part and won't just leave us or forsake us, but that doesn't mean we can't leave Him. Scripture repeatedly warns us not to leave Him, so that shows it is possible.

And, Jesus says it Himself: "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that I should lose nothing of all that He has given Me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in Him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day" (John 6)

He also said this...

John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

How do you reconcile your understanding of John 6:39 with John 17:12? I don't think you can with your view. So, once again you have only showed part of the story. Jesus is talking there about what God's desire is, which is that no one would be lost. But, He doesn't force His desires to come to fruition. The same Greek word translated as "the will" in John 6:39 is used here...

Luke 12:45 But suppose the servant says to himself, ‘My master is taking a long time in coming,’ and he then begins to beat the other servants, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk. 46 The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers. 47 “The servant who knows the master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows.

Verses like Luke 12:47 show that God's will (His desires) can be thwarted. That's only His desires. He also has a will that can't be thwarted such as His will to give eternal life to those who belong to Him and cast those who don't into the lake of fire. Nothing can change that. It was God's will/desire for the servant referenced there in Luke 12 to obey Him, but the servant refused to do so and will be punished as a result.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

But he obviously was. So that renders what you said after this moot, really. If he wasn't, then why would it be included in Scripture, even a letter written by Paul, which is inspired by the Holy Spirit? So, I say he was, absolutely, without a doubt.

LOL! You completely missed the point. Your reading comprehension skills are...suspect at times. At the time he asked Paul and Silas the question, did they know if he was elect or not? No. That's my point. Yet, they still told him that what he needed to do (him, not God) was believe in Jesus in order to be saved. If he was not one of the elect they would have been lying to him because, in your view, the elect were chosen to salvation before the foundation of the world, so any non-elect are not capable of believing in Jesus so they should not be told they can do that in order to be saved since that would be a lie.

To be consistent with your view, what you should tell someone if they asked you what they need to do to be saved is to tell them that there is nothing they can do and they just need to hope that God one day gives them repentance and faith.

Hey, using a concordance, do a wordsearch of 'appointed.' Maybe you have, so, do it again if you are so inclined. It's... very, very interesting.

Again, your reading comprehension skills...wow. I am not contradicting the meaning of the word appointed at all. Pay attention to what I'm actually saying. I'm saying it doesn't say they were appointed to believe. It says they were appointed to eternal life. Can you not acknowledge that? You assume that they were also appointed to believe, but the text does not say that.

It's interesting that you didn't address what I said about Acts 13:46 at all in terms of using that verse to help understand the context of verse 48. Why not?

Fair enough. But you say that everything I say is gibberish and nonsense, so how can you evan make such an assessment as this? LOL!

LOL! Again, your reading comprehension skills have failed you. I never said that EVERYTHING you say is gibberish and nonsense. Just some of it.

 

[Jay Ross]

LOL! Again, your reading comprehension skills have failed you. I never said that EVERYTHING you say is gibberish and nonsense. Just some of it.

And your statement is probably true for all who post on this forum, even you.

The main reason that we can easily see faults in others is because these same faults we see in others, are so deeply engrained within our own personal character traits.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

And your statement is probably true for all who post on this forum, even you.

It's certainly true of you. I couldn't care less what you think, knowing you have a lot of beliefs all to yourself.

The main reason that we can easily see faults in others is because these same faults we see in others, are so deeply engrained within our own personal character traits.

Speak for yourself.

 

[Jay Ross]

It's certainly true of you. I couldn't care less what you think, knowing you have a lot of beliefs all to yourself.


Speak for yourself.

Was I not also speaking of myself, just as you have in your response to what I had posted.

As to having a lot of beliefs all to myself, well, I am content that they have been revealed to me by my heavenly Father.

When people point out something of value, you do seem to rear up angerly demonstrating your own shortcomings. So often you do this disgracefully.

Shalom

PS: - Come to think of it, we all do.