The Second Death Destroys Man's False Amill Theory

[Davy]

As if Premills never argue with each other? LOL! You argue with other Premills frequently, so I guess the joke is on you! LOL! You are so lacking in self awareness.

That's just it, those on man's False Pre-trib Rapture theory are Premill, simply because it is written in God's Word that Jesus returns PRIOR to His future "thousand years" reign of Rev.20. But what you cannot grasp is that I am NOT on man's false Pre-trib Rapture theory, but I instead hold to Christ's future return on the last day of this world, which is called Post-trib, meaning AFTER... the tribulation, which is written. That His coming is PRIOR to His future "thousand years" Millennial reign is also WRITTEN in God's Word, and that's why I believe it.

But what those like you believe with man's FALSE Amill theories, CANNOT BE FOUND WRITTEN ANYWHERE IN GOD'S WORD, and there's the difference!

 

[PinSeeker]

You say He was talking about choosing people for salvation in John 15:16...

In John 15:16, Jesus ~ Who is God, of course ~ says, "You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide..." In Ephesians 2:8-10, Paul says of all of us who have been born again of the Spirit, "...by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." The close connection between the two statements cannot be missed.

...I will assume that you believe Judas Iscariot was saved then. Is that correct?

I believe that Judas made a commitment to Jesus, and there’s no reason to think he was anything but sincere in his faith. Like the rest of the disciples, he left everything to follow our Lord. Did he do something really, really bad in betraying Jesus? Absolutely. But there are a lot of folks in the Bible who did some really, really bad things, even someone like David, who committed murder and adultery. Yes, I do believe Judas was saved. God can use even the sinful actions of anyone, good or bad, to accomplish the things He purposes to accomplish, and in this case, God used Judas's actions (among other things) in... well, getting Jesus to the cross and thereby accomplishing redemption itself. Yes, I believe Judas was saved, despite the terrible thing he did in betraying Jesus. Hey, Peter denied Jesus three times, and there's no doubt about him, right?

You are completely misrepresenting what I believe...

No, I'm taking what you say you believe, in certain instances, and exposing what that inevitably leads to, which is something you do not believe. What I'm trying to do, Spiritual Israelite, is show you ~ gently, and in love, actually ~ that... well, some of your premises are wrong, because, though they may seem well and good, if you follow the subsequent logic out, the lead to... well, absurdities, really, that even you yourself would say ~ and do ~ no, that's not what I believe. Well, I know that's not what you believe, but some of the things you have said inevitably lead to that, which means that maybe you should re-think those things you previously said.

You clearly refuse to even think for a second about what I'm saying...

On the contrary. Again, I'm trying to get you to re-think some of the things you yourself are saying.

What you are missing is that a certain type of people was predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ (those who trust and believe in Him) and not certain individuals.

So again, what you're saying, Spiritual Israelite ~ the effect of this statement ~ is that this predestining, God's predestining of this "type of people"... which, this type of people is a group of some size of certain individuals (goodness gracious) DEPENDS ON that "type of people"... does that even make any sense?... THEM TRUSTING AND BELIEVING HIM. Which is in direct conflict with Romans 9:16, that being one of God's elect "depends not on man's willing or running but on God Who has mercy." It's also in direct conflict with Jesus Himself in Matthew and Luketrusting and believing in Him.

We are not predestined to believe. It does not say that.

And I did not say that. But, as Paul says, God does this predestining, and... well, "those whom He predestined He also called, and those whom He called He also justified, and those whom He justified He also glorified." Our belief is not even in view here. Yes, we do make choice, even a free will choice (as if there is any other kind of choice), but this "golden chain of salvation," as we call it, is purely a work of God, Who predestines, calls, justifies, and glorifies.

It was predestined that whoever believes will be conformed to the image of Christ...

No, yet again ~ quoting Paul, not me ~ "those whom He predestined He also called, and those whom He called He also justified, and those whom He justified He also glorified." This whole idea that what is predestined is a method of salvation is absolutely wrong; God predestines people to be conformed to the image of Christ. And, having done so, those people will be conformed to the image of Christ, because God has predestined them in this way.

, which does not just happen immediately, but happens over time as we mature in the faith.

This is called sanctification, and is a work in us of the Holy Spirit.

Why do you think that belief is something that someone can take credit for?

I don't, SI, and I'm glad you don't. But, again, this is one of the unavoidable implications of a couple of things you have said, particularly about our choice and our faith, basically that we are solely responsible for the faith we have, which would mean that we deserve some measure of credit for achieving our own salvation. Which, again, I know you don't believe, but that is the inevitable implication of what you did say.

Our requirement to repent and believe is not something we can take credit for. It involves humbling ourselves and acknowledging our sins and that we can't save ourselves.

"Humbling ourselves," and our "acknowledging our sins"... I mean, those are great things, but even in saying that, you're at least inadvertently taking credit for your own repentance. But that's after the fact anyway; we do repent of our sins, but only because God has given us a new heart... a new spirit He has put within us... He has removed the heart of stone from our flesh and given us a heart of flesh... He has put His Spirit within us and caused us to walk in His statutes and be careful to obey His rules (Ezekiel 36:26-27).

You are continually misrepresenting my view because of your assumption that I'm an Arminian and therefore must believe certain things.

What I have said, SI, is that many of the statements you make are Arminian. Whether you think of yourself as an Arminian or Provisionist or whatever label you prefer or not is irrelevant.

We are predestined, not because of anything man does or believes but because God decided completely on His own before the foundation of the world that He would conform anyone who believed in His Son to the image of His Son.

Yes, that's true, Spiritual Israelite, absolutely true, but you have said, over and over again, and at least seem be saying here that God's predestination depends on our having believed.

Saving faith is not the gift of God.

So you're saying that saving faith is the work of man in and of Himself. If you are saying that, that is absolutely false, SI.

• Paul says, "by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast" (Ephesians 2:8-9)
• Paul also says, "Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit; and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord; and there are varieties of activities, but it is the same God Who empowers them all in everyone. To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. For to one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, Who apportions to each one individually as He wills."
• Yes, saving faith is the gift of God, even by definition: "faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen" (Hebrews 11:1)... God gives this assurance of things hoped for, and it is the Holy Spirit Who convicts.

...scripture teaches that salvation and eternal life are the gift of God and it comes about by His grace through our faith in Christ and not by works.

Here it is again. You slipped that little word "our" in there, SI. That's not what Paul says in Ephesians 2:9. Close, but that one little word "our" turns faith into a work of man, which... it's not. It's God's assurance and conviction by the Holy Spirit's work in us; that's the very definition of faith, per Hebrews 11:1. We don't assure ourselves of anything; self-assurance is worthless, really; it has to come from outside of us, and be given to us, by God Himself, else we don't have it.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

How is it perfect justice for God to purposely make it so that some are saved by His choice alone and everyone else is not saved by His choice alone...

No one deserves His mercy and compassion. No one. Everyone falls short of the glory of God. But, He has mercy and compassion on some, but not others. Why, well, Paul tells us... God, desired, from all eternity, to show His wrath and to make known His power. So He endures with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of His glory for vessels of mercy, which He has prepared beforehand for glory ~ even us whom He has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles. God is God.

and those who are not saved are punished and tormented for eternity...

Punished. The torment is an internal anguish. In the same sense that conversation has become a torment to both of us (on a much larger scale of course), for quite some time now. <smile>

...do you know that Jesus paid the wages of sin for the whole world, as in all people in the world?

In one sense yes, but in another sense no. I've been very clear about that. In one sense, Jesus's atonement was unlimited, but in another not.

Do you believe that any random person you come across on the street has a legitimate opportunity to be saved without it being completely dependent on God's choice alone from before the foundation of the world?

It's dependent on God's grace, His mercy and compassion.

...according to Calvinism, those who are not God's elect can't possibly be saved and never could possibly be saved...

It depends on the sense in which you are saying that, SI. Again, I would just point out two things (among others):

• "When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished, saying, 'Who then can be saved?' But Jesus looked at them and said, 'With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.'” (Matthew 19:25-26)
• "And (the disciples) were exceedingly astonished, and said to (Jesus), 'Then who can be saved?' Jesus looked at them and said, 'With man it is impossible, but not with God. For all things are possible with God.'" (Mark 10:26-27)

So, you see, SI, like it or not, there is a sense in which, yes, it is impossible, a sense in which man cannot be saved, cannot choose God, again, "no one can come to (Jesus) unless the Father draws him."

But, in a different sense, in the sense that everyone, both Jew and Gentile, is equally eligible to receive the salvation of God. And also in the sense that none of us knows who the elect are, so from our perspective, yes, it's possible for anyone to be saved.

In what sense exactly? Be as specific as possible.

Christ's atonement/sacrifice is unlimited/universal in the sense of sufficiency and availability. In that sense, yes, He dies for all, for the world.

But (yet again) the problem is that naturally, no one ~ no one ~ will come to God. Jesus even says, "No one can come to Me unless the Father draws him." And the Father will not draw everyone, but only the ones He has chosen from all eternity. And in that sense, Christ's atonement is limited, to only God's elect.

What does this mean exactly and why is it only effective for God's elect?

It is only effective for God's elect in the sense that God, by His grace, effects salvation in any individual. He has mercy/compassion on whom He wills, and He hardens who He wills. This is His purpose of election.

Calvinism gives people an excuse for not doing that... the excuse is that they were not chosen by God...

Absolutely not; that's no excuse at all.

...could not help but suppress the truth and to not repent.

It is no one's fault except their own. God has made Himself known to all through everything that has been made.

Paul taught that he was not dead in sin until he became aware of what sin is by way of the commandments in God's law....

No, Paul knew very well he was dead in sin ~ at enmity with God ~ well, after the event itself, but up until he was converted on the road to Demascus as documented in Acts 9. You're interpretation of that Romans 7 passage is... interesting... but in direct conflict with what Paul says of all Christians, including himself, in Ephesians 2:4-10, among other places:

"And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience ~ among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ ~ by grace you have been saved ~ and raised us up with Him and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus..."

So, do you agree with Paul...

I agree with Paul, but not you. <smile>

...are you going to insist on contradicting something that Paul taught?

That would be you. <smile>

Grace and peace to you, Spiritual Israelite.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

That's just it, those on man's False Pre-trib Rapture theory are Premill, simply because it is written in God's Word that Jesus returns PRIOR to His future "thousand years" reign of Rev.20. But what you cannot grasp is that I am NOT on man's false Pre-trib Rapture theory, but I instead hold to Christ's future return on the last day of this world, which is called Post-trib, meaning AFTER... the tribulation, which is written.

LOL. Your reading comprehension skills have failed you again. I said Premill, not Pre-trib. Pre-tribs are Premills, too. So, my point stands. And, even Post-trib Premills don't agree on everything, either. For example, no Post-trib Premill agrees with your interpretation of John 5:28-29.

That His coming is PRIOR to His future "thousand years" Millennial reign is also WRITTEN in God's Word, and that's why I believe it.

But what those like you believe with man's FALSE Amill theories, CANNOT BE FOUND WRITTEN ANYWHERE IN GOD'S WORD, and there's the difference!

You have utterly failed to refute Amillennialism with your loose and reckless treatment of God's Word. You really should just stick to debating post-trib vs. pre-trib because you're in over your head in the Amill vs. Premill debates.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

In John 15:16, Jesus ~ Who is God, of course ~ says, "You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide..." In Ephesians 2:8-10, Paul says of all of us who have been born again of the Spirit, "...by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." The close connection between the two statements cannot be missed.

Again...John 6:70-71 says that even Judas Iscariot was chosen and the context is the same as John 15:16. So, by interpreting John 15:16 the way you do, you are forcing yourself to believe that Judas Iscariot was chosen for salvation and is in heaven now. But, he is not.

I believe that Judas made a commitment to Jesus, and there’s no reason to think he was anything but sincere in his faith. Like the rest of the disciples, he left everything to follow our Lord. Did he do something really, really bad in betraying Jesus? Absolutely. But there are a lot of folks in the Bible who did some really, really bad things, even someone like David, who committed murder and adultery. Yes, I do believe Judas was saved. God can use even the sinful actions of anyone, good or bad, to accomplish the things He purposes to accomplish, and in this case, God used Judas's actions (among other things) in... well, getting Jesus to the cross and thereby accomplishing redemption itself. Yes, I believe Judas was saved, despite the terrible thing he did in betraying Jesus. Hey, Peter denied Jesus three times, and there's no doubt about him, right?

Jesus called Judas Iscariot a devil (John 6:70-71). Is that what He would call someone who was saved? A devil? I am sure He would not. Also, there's this...

John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Jesus said Judas Iscariot was a devil and was lost. Why don't you agree with Jesus?

As for Peter, he repented of what he did. Judas Iscariot did not. Instead of repenting and seeking God's forgiveness, he killed himself.

No, I'm taking what you say you believe, in certain instances, and exposing what that inevitably leads to, which is something you do not believe. What I'm trying to do, Spiritual Israelite, is show you ~ gently, and in love, actually ~ that... well, some of your premises are wrong, because, though they may seem well and good, if you follow the subsequent logic out, the lead to... well, absurdities, really, that even you yourself would say ~ and do ~ no, that's not what I believe. Well, I know that's not what you believe, but some of the things you have said inevitably lead to that, which means that maybe you should re-think those things you previously said.

That is what I'm trying to do for you. Such as showing you that John 15:16 doesn't mean what you think it means because it leads you to believe the absurdity that Judas Iscariot was saved despite Jesus saying he was a devil and was lost.

On the contrary. Again, I'm trying to get you to re-think some of the things you yourself are saying.

You need to re-think your understanding of John 15:16.

No, yet again ~ quoting Paul, not me ~ "those whom He predestined He also called, and those whom He called He also justified, and those whom He justified He also glorified." This whole idea that what is predestined is a method of salvation is absolutely wrong; God predestines people to be conformed to the image of Christ. And, having done so, those people will be conformed to the image of Christ, because God has predestined them in this way.

He predestined that anyone who believes in Christ would be conformed to the image of Christ. He did not predestine certain individuals. He did not look into the future and see PinSeeker and tell Himself "I will choose him to salvation, but not his his neighbor because I want his neighbor to spend eternity in the lake of fire instead. I am doing this just because I can and no one can tell me what to do.".

I don't, SI, and I'm glad you don't. But, again, this is one of the unavoidable implications of a couple of things you have said, particularly about our choice and our faith, basically that we are solely responsible for the faith we have, which would mean that we deserve some measure of credit for achieving our own salvation.

Show me where scripture ever teaches that. I see scripture which says we could take credit if salvation was based on works, but it never says that in relation to faith.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

"Humbling ourselves," and our "acknowledging our sins"... I mean, those are great things, but even in saying that, you're at least inadvertently taking credit for your own repentance.

Nope. That is a you thing and not a scripture thing. Please read this...

Luke 18:9 To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable: 10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’ 13 “But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’ 14 “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”

For the sake of argument, assume that my view is correct that people have free will and have an equal possibility of either choosing to repent or to refuse to repent. So, assume that the tax collector in this parable chose in his own volition to humble himself while acknowledging that he was a sinner while asking God to have mercy on him. In your view, the tax collector would be taking credit for his own salvation in this scenario. So, you say he would be exalting himself in this scenario I am proposing. But, the reality is he would be doing exactly the opposite of that by humbling himself and acknowledging that he is a sinner who cannot save himself. How can you think he is taking credit, when he is acknowledging that he can't save himself because he's a sinner? That makes no sense.

So you're saying that saving faith is the work of man in and of Himself. If you are saying that, that is absolutely false, SI.

Yet, you are unable to prove that. All you do is try to prove that using verses that you have misinterpreted. God makes man responsible to choose whether to repent and put their faith and trust in Christ after hearing the gospel or not. Your view removes any responsibility in salvation completely away from man and you make it so that God punishes people for eternity for no apparent reason. It's not because they could have chosen to repent but chose not to instead. You can't say that when you believe that someone can only do that if God predestined them to do it and that it's His choice alone.

• Paul says, "by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast" (Ephesians 2:8-9)

Salvation is by grace through our faith in Christ.

Tell me, if any random person asked you what they needed to do to be saved, what would you tell them? That they don't need to do anything except wait to see whether or not God gives them repentance and faith? That is what I would think you would say based on your beliefs. But, Paul and Silas said this to the jailer who asked them that question:

Acts 16:30 He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”

Whose faith did the jailer need to use to believe in Jesus? His own or God's? If not his own, then why did Paul and Silas answer him as if they knew he had the ability to believe in Jesus even without knowing if he was predestined to salvation or not? In your view, there's no way they would have known if he was one of the chosen or not so they would be lying to tell him that he could be saved by believing in Jesus if he wasn't one of the chosen that God predestined by His choice alone.

Here it is again. You slipped that little word "our" in there, SI. That's not what Paul says in Ephesians 2:9.

He doesn't say "God's faith", either. Salvation and eternal life (Romans 6:23) are God's gift that is by grace through our faith in Jesus and not by works or else we could boast. It never says we could boast if it was by God's grace through our faith.

Close, but that one little word "our" turns faith into a work of man, which... it's not.

Show me where this is taught in scripture.

It's God's assurance and conviction by the Holy Spirit's work in us; that's the very definition of faith, per Hebrews 11:1. We don't assure ourselves of anything; self-assurance is worthless, really; it has to come from outside of us, and be given to us, by God Himself, else we don't have it.

Salvation isn't by way of self-assurance, it's by way of God's grace and our acknowledging that we are sinners who can't save ourselves. It's the opposite of self-assurance.

 

[PinSeeker]

Again...John 6:70-71 says that even Judas Iscariot was chosen and the context is the same as John 15:16.

He was chosen to further God's purpose in the way that he did. That has nothing to do with being chosen to receive salvation or not.

So, by interpreting John 15:16 the way you do, you are forcing yourself to believe that Judas Iscariot was chosen for salvation and is in heaven now.

Not so; again, the two have nothing to do with each other. God used Judas (among many others) to play a part in His purpose of sending Jesus to the cross, and this is in the same sense as what Paul says in Romans 8:28, that God works all things together for the good of those who love Him and are called according to His purpose. So, again

But, he is not.

Opinion noted. And you can chalk what I said up to my opinion if you so choose; that's fine with me. There is nothing in Scripture to indicate that he was not saved. And the fact that He was chosen by Jesus to be one of His disciples ~ just as all Christians are even today, and that means you and me ~ is indicative of His having had mercy and compassion (in Paul's words in Romans 9) on him.

Jesus called Judas Iscariot a devil (John 6:70-71).

Right, even Christians can do devilish things. But God can use that in accomplishing His great purposes, and this is a great example of that, of working all things together for the good of those who love Him and are called according to His purpose... even those who are themselves guilty of doing these devilish, terrible, horrible things.

Why don't you agree with Jesus?

I do. See above. I appreciate your opinion, but that you don't think I do matters not.

As for Peter, he repented of what he did.

All we know for sure is that when Jesus gave Peter the chance, he confirmed his love for Jesus. Three times, which is no coincidence, as I'm sure you will agree. Peter probably did repent of that particular sin (denying Jesus), but there is no record of that.

Judas Iscariot did not...

No record of that one way or the other either.

He predestined that anyone who believes in Christ would be conformed to the image of Christ.

No, He predestined some to be conformed to the image of Christ of His own will, which is exactly what Paul says. God's will does not depend on man's will; it depends on nothing except God Himself.

He did not predestine certain individuals.

He did.

He did not look into the future...

He did not look into the future at all, because He always exists at all times... outside of time, as time itself is a construct with His creation, and God is not in creation, but over it.

Show me where scripture ever teaches that. I see scripture which says we could take credit if salvation was based on works, but it never says that in relation to faith.

We are not responsible for the faith we have; we cannot generate any measure of the faith that saves. As I said ~ yes, you are asking me to repeat myself ~ Paul is crystal clear that faith is a gift of the Spirit in 1 Corinthians 12... verse 9 specifically. And In Ephesians 2, he also says, "by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God," and we cannot separate faith back out of that without mangling what Paul says there. And again, the definition of faith is given in Hebrews 11:1... God's assurance and conviction by the Holy Spirit.

Salvation is by grace through our faith in Christ.

It's not ours in the sense that we manufactured it, but rather that God gave it to us, worked it in us. Faith itself is the gift of God, a gift of the Spirit. which God gives to us, putting a new spirit in us, and giving us His Spirit. I guess you'll ask for proof yet again... Romans 9, 11, and 12. 1 Corinthians 12, Ephesians 2, John 1, Ezekiel 11 and 36, Hebrews 11,

He doesn't say "God's faith", either.

I didn't say or insinuate that. But Paul does say, "by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God." The faith part cannot be extracted back out and made to be in and of ourselves, and that's essentially what you're doing. As the writer of Hebrews says, "Jesus is the founder and perfecter of our faith" (Hebrews 12:2).

Show me where this is taught in scripture.

What you said is not; that's the point. You said, "God's gift that is by grace through our faith in Jesus." So what you're essentially saying is th at God wouldn't have saved us by His grace (or anything else) if we did not first manufacture and thus have faith in the first place. And that is not the case. Faith is God's assurance, and conviction by the Spirit. That's the very definition of faith, given to us in Hebrews 11:1.

Salvation isn't by way of self-assurance,

Right, but that's essentially what you're saying, in saying that faith is not a gift of God. You're saying that faith is "ours" in the sense that we bring it about in ourselves, so you're essentially saying that the assurance of things hoped for and the conviction of things not seen, which is how the Bible defines faith, is self-given, that we assure ourselves, which is no real assurance at all.

it's by way of God's grace and our acknowledging that we are sinners who can't save ourselves.

We acknowledge our sinful state (and repent and believe) because of the grace of God in giving us this assurance and convicting us through the work of His Spirit in us.

It's the opposite of self-assurance.

Yes, but unintentional as it may be that's what you make it out to be. To God be the glory.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No one deserves His mercy and compassion. No one. Everyone falls short of the glory of God. But, He has mercy and compassion on some, but not others. Why, well, Paul tells us... God, desired, from all eternity, to show His wrath and to make known His power. So He endures with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of His glory for vessels of mercy, which He has prepared beforehand for glory ~ even us whom He has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles. God is God.

Weak answer that doesn't take into account that God wants to have mercy on all people. In your view, He does not want to have mercy on all people and purposely makes it so that some people never even have the opportunity for Him to have mercy on them. You're always just looking at part of the story instead of the whole story.

Romans 11:30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now[a] receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Punished. The torment is an internal anguish.

And, why are they punished and in torment? Because of not believing, right (John 3:18)? What could they have done differently to avoid that? In your view there's nothing they could have done because they have no responsibility in relation to salvation. So, in your view it's what God wanted for them from birth in your mind. I do not believe in that "God". I believe in the God who wants all people to repent and to be saved (2 Peter 3:9, Acts 17:30-31) and graciously offers salvation to all people (Titus 2:11) by way of the sacrifice of His Son for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:1-2).

In one sense yes, but in another sense no. I've been very clear about that. In one sense, Jesus's atonement was unlimited, but in another not.

If you define his atonement being unlimited as meaning that He died to give all people the opportunity to be saved and have their sins forgiven, then you do not believe that.

It's dependent on God's grace, His mercy and compassion.

This was your answer to the question "Do you believe that any random person you come across on the street has a legitimate opportunity to be saved without it being completely dependent on God's choice alone from before the foundation of the world?". Why are you not willing to answer straightforward questions with straightforward answers? Based on what you said here, I will just assume that your answer to my question is no.

It depends on the sense in which you are saying that, SI. Again, I would just point out two things (among others):

• "When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished, saying, 'Who then can be saved?' But Jesus looked at them and said, 'With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.'” (Matthew 19:25-26)
• "And (the disciples) were exceedingly astonished, and said to (Jesus), 'Then who can be saved?' Jesus looked at them and said, 'With man it is impossible, but not with God. For all things are possible with God.'" (Mark 10:26-27)
  
  So, you see, SI, like it or not, there is a sense in which, yes, it is impossible, a sense in which man cannot be saved, cannot choose God, again, "no one can come to (Jesus) unless the Father draws him."

Of course salvation would not be possible at all without God making it possible. I'm, of course, not arguing against that.

• 
  But, in a different sense, in the sense that everyone, both Jew and Gentile, is equally eligible to receive the salvation of God. And also in the sense that none of us knows who the elect are, so from our perspective, yes, it's possible for anyone to be saved.

I'm rolling my eyes very hard right now. I am not asking from our perspective, I'm asking from God's perspective. Do you believe that He made it so that literally every person has a legitimate and genuine opportunity to be saved? I would assume not since you believe it's entirely up to God to determine who is saved and who isn't and, obviously, not everyone is saved.

• 
  
  
  Christ's atonement/sacrifice is unlimited/universal in the sense of sufficiency and availability. In that sense, yes, He dies for all, for the world.

This is religious doublespeak. Total nonsense. What does this even mean? Are you saying you believe it's sufficient and available for those who you believe He did not predestine to believe? How can that be?

• 
  
  But (yet again) the problem is that naturally, no one ~ no one ~ will come to God. Jesus even says, "No one can come to Me unless the Father draws him." And the Father will not draw everyone, but only the ones He has chosen from all eternity. And in that sense, Christ's atonement is limited, to only God's elect.

Once again you have only looked at part of the story instead of the whole story. You see a verse like that and, apparently, ignore a passage like this...

John 12:30 Jesus said, “This voice was for your benefit, not mine. 31 Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out. 32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.” 33 He said this to show the kind of death he was going to die.

How do you reconcile your understanding of John 6:44 with John 12:32? Apparently, you don't. You apparently just draw conclusions from John 6:44 without even taking John 12:32 into account.

The way to reconcile the verses without ignoring either one of them is to understand that all people are drawn and called to salvation, but some people reject it. It's true that someone can't come to Christ unless the Father draws them, but that does not mean the Father only draws some and not all people because that would contradict John 12:32. The drawing or calling to Christ can be rejected or else all people would be saved.

• 
  
  It is only effective for God's elect in the sense that God, by His grace, effects salvation in any individual. He has mercy/compassion on whom He wills, and He hardens who He wills. This is His purpose of election.

His purpose of election is not to create some people to not have any opportunity to be saved but instead to be destined for eternity in the lake of fire from birth. What kind of "God" would do that? Not that one I know who wants all people to repent and be saved and graciously offers salvation to all people.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

• 
  
  
  Absolutely not; that's no excuse at all.

Of course it is. You're not being honest here. How can it not be an excuse to not believe if you have no ability to do so because of not being chosen to be one of the people that God decided to give faith to? What better excuse can someone have for not repenting and believing than being able to say that they didn't repent and believe because God decided not to give them repentance and faith?

• 
  
  
  It is no one's fault except their own. God has made Himself known to all through everything that has been made.

Do you actually believe this? Remember, we're not just talking about believing in the existence of God here. That's not what Paul was talking about. He said they had no excuse for not glorifying Him as God and not being thankful to Him. So, you believe they were capable of glorifying Him as God and being thankful to Him and should have done so, but chose not to do that instead? If so, then why do you not believe the same in relation to someone believing in Christ? How can someone be capable of choosing whether to do glorify God as God and be thankful to Him, but at the same time not be able to believe in Christ?

• 
  
  
  No, Paul knew very well he was dead in sin ~ at enmity with God ~ well, after the event itself, but up until he was converted on the road to Demascus as documented in Acts 9. You're interpretation of that Romans 7 passage is... interesting... but in direct conflict with what Paul says of all Christians, including himself, in Ephesians 2:4-10, among other places:
  
  "And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience ~ among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ ~ by grace you have been saved ~ and raised us up with Him and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus..."

You say my interpretation of that Romans 7 passage is interesting and then you proceeded to not even specifically address the passage or what I said about it. Why not? Instead, you pointed to another passage which also does not teach that we are dead in sins from birth. What the Ephesians 2 passage means is that every person will inevitably sin and become children of wrath, but it does not say that is the case from birth. How do you reconcile the view that we are children of wrath and dead in sin from birth with what Paul said here:

Romans 7:7 What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet. 8 But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of coveting. For apart from the law, sin was dead. 9 Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10 I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. 11 For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death.

I show you a passage that explicitly indicates that Paul was not dead in his sins until he became aware of what sin is by way of the law and you just ignore it. How can I take you seriously when you are so selective in which verses you accept and which verses you reject or ignore? If you can't reconcile one passage with another, don't just ignore the other passage. Take a closer look until you can reconcile them together. But, instead of doing that, you draw conclusions from the Ephesians 2 passage and just ignore the Romans 7 passage.

I agree with Paul, but not you.

Clearly not since he said he was not dead in sin until he became aware of what sin is by way of the law and you say that he (and everyone else) instead was dead in sin from birth.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

He was chosen to further God's purpose in the way that he did. That has nothing to do with being chosen to receive salvation or not.

Yes, exactly! And that is the context of John 15:16 as well, so why do you try to claim that John 15:16 has anything to do with being chosen to salvation? Do you not understand that Jesus was talking to all twelve of them, including Judas Iscariot, in John 15:16 as well?

Not so; again, the two have nothing to do with each other. God used Judas (among many others) to play a part in His purpose of sending Jesus to the cross, and this is in the same sense as what Paul says in Romans 8:28, that God works all things together for the good of those who love Him and are called according to His purpose. So, again

You're saying that you believe John 6:70-71 and John 15:16 have nothing to do with each other? What is that based on besides extreme doctrinal bias? They both have Jesus talking about choosing the twelve disciples, including Judas Iscariot. But, somehow, they have nothing to do with each other? Really? No. I can't buy that.

Opinion noted. And you can chalk what I said up to my opinion if you so choose; that's fine with me. There is nothing in Scripture to indicate that he was not saved.

Nothing besides Jesus saying that he was lost and was a devil, you mean?

If you want to think that the following describes a saved person, then it seems you're liable to believe just about anything.

John 6:70-71 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? 71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

And the fact that He was chosen by Jesus to be one of His disciples ~ just as all Christians are even today, and that means you and me ~ is indicative of His having had mercy and compassion (in Paul's words in Romans 9) on him.

He was clearly not chosen in the sense of being predestined to salvation, so John 15:16, where Jesus was talking to all twelve disciples, including Judas Iscariot, could not possibly have anything to do with them being chosen and predestined to salvation before the foundation of the world.

Right, even Christians can do devilish things. But God can use that in accomplishing His great purposes, and this is a great example of that, of working all things together for the good of those who love Him and are called according to His purpose... even those who are themselves guilty of doing these devilish, terrible, horrible things.

Do you think that Jesus would call any Christian a devil? I know that He would not! It's utterly ludicrous to think that He would have said that Judas Iscariot was lost and was a devil if Judas was saved.

All we know for sure is that when Jesus gave Peter the chance, he confirmed his love for Jesus. Three times, which is no coincidence, as I'm sure you will agree. Peter probably did repent of that particular sin (denying Jesus), but there is no record of that.

Probably? Ugh.

We are not responsible for the faith we have; we cannot generate any measure of the faith that saves. As I said ~ yes, you are asking me to repeat myself ~ Paul is crystal clear that faith is a gift of the Spirit in 1 Corinthians 12... verse 9 specifically. And In Ephesians 2, he also says, "by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,"

Once again you have decided to interpret verses in such a way that contradicts other verses. Why are you okay with doing that? Scripture says that eternal life is the gift of God (Romans 6:23), which means that salvation is the gift of God being referenced in Ephesians 2:8-10 and that gift comes by God's grace through our faith in Christ. You may think I'm being repetitive here, but just keep in mind that you are repeating yourself as well. And, apparently, we are both okay with repeating ourselves. I think we have both proven that.

and we cannot separate faith back out of that without mangling what Paul says there. And again, the definition of faith is given in Hebrews 11:1... God's assurance and conviction by the Holy Spirit.

So, I ask you to show me where scripture ever teaches that having our own faith be a requirement for salvation would mean we can take credit for our own salvation and you proceeded to not share any scripture which teaches that, which is quite telling.

Again, I see scripture which says we could take credit if salvation was based on works, but it never says that in relation to faith.

It's not ours in the sense that we manufactured it, but rather that God gave it to us, worked it in us.

Yes, it is or else it's not ours. But, scripture often refers to "your faith" and "our faith". James referred to his own faith as "my faith" (James 2:18). It's not God's faith or faith that is given to us no matter how much you try to say that it is.

If faith was given to us by God without it being a choice that we make, then explain why Jesus was amazed at the faith of the centurion referenced in this passage.

Matthew 8:5 And when Jesus was entered into Capernaum, there came unto him a centurion, beseeching him, 6 And saying, Lord, my servant lieth at home sick of the palsy, grievously tormented. 7 And Jesus saith unto him, I will come and heal him.8 The centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed.9 For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it. 10 When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.

If God gives people faith, then there would be nothing suprising about it, yet we see here how Jesus was suprised at the amount of faith that the centurion had.

Faith itself is the gift of God, a gift of the Spirit. which God gives to us, putting a new spirit in us, and giving us His Spirit. I guess you'll ask for proof yet again... Romans 9, 11, and 12. 1 Corinthians 12, Ephesians 2, John 1, Ezekiel 11 and 36, Hebrews 11,

I am giving loads of proof to back up my view, so it is disingenous of you to act otherwise. Your misinterpretations of those verses don't say otherwise.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I didn't say or insinuate that. But Paul does say, "by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God." The faith part cannot be extracted back out and made to be in and of ourselves, and that's essentially what you're doing. As the writer of Hebrews says, "Jesus is the founder and perfecter of our faith" (Hebrews 12:2).

Salvation and eternal life is the gift of God (Romans 6:23). It comes about by God's grace through our faith.

What you said is not; that's the point. You said, "God's gift that is by grace through our faith in Jesus." So what you're essentially saying is th at God wouldn't have saved us by His grace (or anything else) if we did not first manufacture and thus have faith in the first place.

Nope. That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that God alone, and not man, chose what the requirements would be for salvation and He chose to graciously offer salvation by way of the sacrifice of His Son for the sins of the whole world so that all people would have the opportunity to accept His offer by believing in His Son.

And that is not the case.

You're right. I agree. Congratulations on winning the argument with your straw man.

Faith is God's assurance, and conviction by the Spirit. That's the very definition of faith, given to us in Hebrews 11:1.

Where does it say faith is God's assurance? You should know better than to twist scripture like this.

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Not mention of faith being God's assurance here.

Right, but that's essentially what you're saying, in saying that faith is not a gift of God. You're saying that faith is "ours" in the sense that we bring it about in ourselves, so you're essentially saying that the assurance of things hoped for and the conviction of things not seen, which is how the Bible defines faith, is self-given, that we assure ourselves, which is no real assurance at all.

Nope. Wrong again. Not what I'm saying.

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see. 2 This is what the ancients were commended for.

The assurance and confidence we have in what we believe is from the evidence that we see that shows that what we believe in is true. We don't see God, but there's the evidence for God by what He has made. Notice that "the ancients were commended for" their faith. Why would that be the case if they were given faith? God should be commended in that case instead, but those ancient believers themselves were commended for their faith similar to how Jesus commended the centurion for his faith. If it's just faith that God gave, then no one should be commended for it since it wouldn't be their own faith.

We acknowledge our sinful state (and repent and believe) because of the grace of God in giving us this assurance and convicting us through the work of His Spirit in us.

Yes, but what you don't understand is that His grace can be resisted. So, you should not think that your own experience is the same experience for everyone. You don't even realize it, but you used your free will to choose to respond favorably to God's grace, while other people chose to resist it.

Acts 7:51 “You stiff-necked people! Your hearts and ears are still uncircumcised. You are just like your ancestors: You always resist the Holy Spirit!

Yes, but unintentional as it may be that's what you make it out to be. To God be the glory.

Nope. Wrong yet again. It serves no purpose to continually misrepresent my view. If you do it often enough, it can come across that you're doing it on purpose. I do not say that salvation comes about by self assurance, but rather expressing assurance in God and trusting in Him instead of ourselves for salvation. We do that by submitting to Him, repenting of our sins while acknowledging that we can't save ourselves and asking God for mercy like the tax collector in the Luke 18:9-14 parable.

 

[PinSeeker]

It serves no purpose to continually misrepresent my view.

You apparently don't even understand your own view, SI. That's the point.

I do not say that salvation comes about by self assurance...

But you do say we manufacture our own faith, which is to say, then, that the person responsible for giving you the assurance of things hoped for and the conviction of things not seen is you yourself.

...expressing assurance in God...

...is so absolutely not what Hebrews 11:1 says or even insinuates. This faith is given to us by God ~ yes, substance, confidence, assurance (ESV, NASB), even certainty... these ideas are all contained in the Greek word we translate to the English as 'faith' ~ by His will, and worked in us by His Holy Spirit at the time of our being born again of the Spirit. It has nothing directly to do with the will or with us "expressing" anything, but the heart, the spirit. God gives us a new spirit, and puts His spirit in us, thereby causing us then to walk in His ways and obey Him... and yes, to choose to do so, which we do. No one, much less God, "forces" us to do this, but because of what He has done in us, we are then compelled, even in and of ourselves, because of the Spirit's work in our hearts, to choose and obey and walk in this newness of life. We are so compelled to do this because we are no longer of the devil but of God; no longer is the devil our father, but God, It is our heart, our spirit, that has been changed, and this is what then drives the will, so that, as Paul says to the Philippians (and us by extension). we can make our calling and election sure, because it is God Who is at work in us to ~ so that we will ~ will and work for His good pleasure (Philippians 2:13). All praise and thanks to God for not leaving us as we were, giving us up to our own selfish passions and desires, as He has with others. But this is His amazing grace.

But you're so doggedly bound to this idea that we're absolute "free agents" when it comes to our salvation... basically that we are not God's workmanship but that we create ourselves, that we give ourselves new birth in the Spirit, even that we save ourselves, all of which is absolutely antithetical to the whole of God's Word ...that you will not accept that it is absolutely of God and nothing else. That's the whole issue here. No, it is by His grace alone that we are saved. Sola Del Gratia. By His grace alone. Ephesians 2:8-9, among other passages; this is how amazing His grace is.

We are all, from birth, absolutely undeserving of His salvific grace... all have fallen short of the glory of God... not because we have sinned at birth ~ the manifestation of the sin in us will come at some point after we are born ~ but because of the condition of our heart, our proneness to sin, and in this way we are already, at birth, guilty, even despite its still yet to come outward manifestation. This you cannot accept. That's the problem. And it's why you can't accept God's purpose of election, His predestination, His sovereignty over His creation... all of that... for what it is. That's why you see all these Scriptures, from Genesis through Revelation, as you do.

Soli Deo Gloria! (to God alone be the glory!)

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

I will say this, just to your citation of Romans 7 and verses 7 to 9, specifically. Just so I don't, uh, leave ya hangin'... <smile>

Paul is speaking of himself and his relationship with God before he actually sinned. The prohibition against coveting stimulated the desire in him to sin ~ which is strongly indicative of his predisposition to sin ~ and so in turn led to death. But to God, because of this predisposition to, this proneness to sin ~ and God's position outside of and above time and so simultaneously present at all times, past, present and future ~ Paul had already sinned even before he sinned outwardly in time, and so had already sinned, and was already at enmity with God.

So, by "interesting," I meant... well, I'll put it diplomatically, I think, and say... not cognizant of the whole picture. <smile> In the same sense, Paul speaks in Romans 8 of himself and all those whom God has called and even will call at some point in the future, saying, "those whom He predestined He also called, and those whom He called He also justified, and those whom He justified He also glorified. What Paul is saying there... as in Romans 7, has past, present, and future implications, so he's even speaking of things that haven't happened for a lot of us yet ~ even those of us who have been predestined, called, and justified, as we have not been glorified yet ~ in the past tense, because, even though they be future, 1) they are certain to happen, and 2) from God's perspective outside of... above... time, ever-present in what we sometimes call the 'eternal now,' all of this has already happened. God is the great I AM.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Davy]

LOL. Your reading comprehension skills have failed you again. I said Premill, not Pre-trib. Pre-tribs are Premills, too. So, my point stands. And, even Post-trib Premills don't agree on everything, either. For example, no Post-trib Premill agrees with your interpretation of John 5:28-29.

What I said stands.

What is actually 'written' in God's Word, is a Post-tribulational, Pre-Mill return of Lord Jesus Christ. ANYTHING other than that is NOT WRITTEN.

(And of course I realize those on man's Pre-trib Rapture theory believe the Premill position, yet they do NOT believe the Post-trib position, and that's the comparison I was making!)

Thus it is YOU... that needs better reading comprehension.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You apparently don't even understand your own view, SI. That's the point.

Of course I do. Stop saying stupid things if you want to continue the discussion. Otherwise, keep saying stupid things like this.

But you do say we manufacture our own faith, which is to say, then, that the person responsible for giving you the assurance of things hoped for and the conviction of things not seen is you yourself.

Nope. You're not even trying to understand.

...is so absolutely not what Hebrews 11:1 says or even insinuates.

It is. You are just blinded by doctrinal bias, so you can't see it. Your arguments are not convincing at all to me. Get that through your head. I know you convince yourself, but not me.

This faith is given to us by God ~ yes, substance, confidence, assurance (ESV, NASB), even certainty... these ideas are all contained in the Greek word we translate to the English as 'faith' ~ by His will, and worked in us by His Holy Spirit at the time of our being born again of the Spirit. It has nothing directly to do with the will or with us "expressing" anything, but the heart, the spirit. God gives us a new spirit, and puts His spirit in us, thereby causing us then to walk in His ways and obey Him... and yes, to choose to do so, which we do.

Oh, so you obey Him perfectly at all times, do you? You're just a robot then? If you don't obey Him perfectly at all times, then how is it possible that you would ever not obey Him based on what you're saying here?

No one, much less God, "forces" us to do this, but because of what He has done in us, we are then compelled, even in and of ourselves, because of the Spirit's work in our hearts, to choose and obey and walk in this newness of life.

LOL. You speak total gibberish and religious doublespeak. You say He doesn't force us to do that and proceed to contradict yourself by indicating that He basically forces us to do it. You say NOTHING about us having any responsibility to cooperate with the Holy Spirit. You think He just does what He does and we, like robots, do what He programs us to do. I wonder why Paul warns us about not grieving and quenching the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 4:30, 1 Thess 5:19) if it is automatic that we obey Him? How do you explain that?

But you're so doggedly bound to this idea that we're absolute "free agents" when it comes to our salvation... basically that we are not God's workmanship but that we create ourselves, that we give ourselves new birth in the Spirit, even that we save ourselves, all of which is absolutely antithetical to the whole of God's Word

Once again you have misrepresented my view. This is hopeless. I sure hope you're not doing it on purpose.

Salvation is not an either-or thing, as if it's entirely dependent on God or entirely dependent on man. I do NOT say it's entirely dependent on us. God does the work by sending His Son to die for our sins and having His word preached and speaking to our hearts by His Holy Spirit, but we are responsible to choose how to respond to His offer of salvation that He offers to all people (Titus 2:11). You try to remove man's responsibility completely from the equation, but scripture does not do that.

...that you will not accept that it is absolutely of God and nothing else.

Of course I won't accept that since scripture REPEATEDLY speaks about man's responsibility. There is no basis for people being judged for eternity if man has no responsibility. Why you can't understand that is beyond me.

That's the whole issue here. No, it is by His grace alone that we are saved. Sola Del Gratia. By His grace alone. Ephesians 2:8-9, among other passages; this is how amazing His grace is.

So, you ignore the "through faith" part and say it's by grace alone. That's typical of you to only look at part of the story instead of the whole story.

We are all, from birth, absolutely undeserving of His salvific grace... all have fallen short of the glory of God...

Of course. Do you actually think I don't agree with this?

not because we have sinned at birth ~ the manifestation of the sin in us will come at some point after we are born ~ but because of the condition of our heart, our proneness to sin, and in this way we are already, at birth, guilty, even despite its still yet to come outward manifestation.

More religious doublespeak. We are NOT guilty of sin at birth in any way, shape or form as we are NOT even capable of sinning at birth. I showed you that Paul said he was not dead in sin until he became aware of what sin was, and you just completely ignore that. You cherry pick the scriptures you accept and ignore the rest.

This you cannot accept.

Of course I cannot accept what isn't true. And you most certainly have done nothing to convince me that what you're saying is true. There is no scripture which teaches that we are guilty of sin from birth. But, there is scripture which teaches that we become guilty of sin once we become aware of what sin is.

That's the problem.

The problem is that you believe in false doctrine.

And it's why you can't accept God's purpose of election, His predestination, His sovereignty over His creation... all of that... for what it is.

That's a lie. I do accept it. I don't accept your understanding of those things.

That's why you see all these Scriptures, from Genesis through Revelation, as you do.

I see them in the correct context and make sure I don't contradict any of them with my interpretations. You, however, blatantly contradict what Paul taught about when a person becomes dead in sin because you do not accept what "all these Scriptures, from Genesis through Revelation" teach. You draw conclusions from some scriptures and either ignore or twist the rest to fit those conclusions.

Soli Deo Gloria! (to God alone be the glory!)

Amen! You are so ignorant that you don't understand that my doctrine gives God alone the glory as well. I gave the example of the parable in Luke 18:9-14. If the tax collector used his free will to decide to repent of his sins, acknowledge that he can't save himself and ask God for mercy, who is he giving glory to? You say that he would be giving glory to himself in that scenario even though he is clearly giving glory to God alone in that scenario. That shows your doctrinal bias.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I will say this, just to your citation of Romans 7 and verses 7 to 9, specifically. Just so I don't, uh, leave ya hangin'... <smile>

Paul is speaking of himself and his relationship with God before he actually sinned. The prohibition against coveting stimulated the desire in him to sin ~ which is strongly indicative of his predisposition to sin ~ and so in turn led to death. But to God, because of this predisposition to, this proneness to sin ~ and God's position outside of and above time and so simultaneously present at all times, past, present and future ~ Paul had already sinned even before he sinned outwardly in time, and so had already sinned, and was already at enmity with God.

As is so often the case, you just share your opinions without showing where the scripture itself supports your opinions. The text itself, which you should not ignore, indicates that Paul became dead in sin at the time he became aware of sin. Why are you trying to change that? You give all these comments without showing any scripture which supports them. You think I'm going to be convinced by your words alone? Where is the scripture which states something similar to this: "Paul had already sinned even before he sinned outwardly in time, and so had already sinned, and was already at enmity with God". Show me the scripture, man. Your words mean nothing if you can't support them with scripture. Here is what the text actually says, which does not line up with what you're saying...

Romans 7:7 What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.” 8 But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of coveting. For apart from the law, sin was dead. 9 Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10 I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death.

Take off your Calvinist glasses for a minute and try to be objective while following Paul's train of thought here. First, he points out that he didn't know what sin was until it was revealed to him by the law and he gave coveting as an example. Do you agree with that? Then it says he died, not at birth, but "when the commandment came" and "sin sprang to life" in him. Do you agree with that? What you said does not match what Paul said. I will take Paul's word over yours every time.

 

[PinSeeker]

You say NOTHING about us having any responsibility to cooperate with the Holy Spirit.

There is no "cooperation with the Holy Spirit" in God's work of salvation. We are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them., just as Paul says in Ephesians 2:9-10.

You think He just does what He does and we, like robots, do what He programs us to do.

No, but I do think along the same lines as Paul and what he says in Philippians 2:13, in his exhortation to us, that we are able to "work out (our) own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in (us), both to will and to work for his good pleasure." I mean, you can think of that as "robotics" or "puppetry" if you want, but it's not. And this is not me speaking; this is the Word of God.

I wonder why Paul warns us about not grieving and quenching the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 4:30, 1 Thess 5:19) ...

Because this is what sin does, and even as believers, we still sin.

if it is automatic that we obey Him? How do you explain that?

It's not "automatic;" that's ridiculous, but the answer is that we don't obey nearly perfectly, which is another way of saying we still sin. But, of course, as John says, if we confess our sins, God is faithful and just to forgive.

Salvation is not an either-or thing, as if it's entirely dependent on God or entirely dependent on man.

That's true, but it is first dependent on God. And If God chooses, and then at the appointed time gives the person new birth in the spirit by the Holy Spirit, then, yes, it is ~ in a sense, dependent on man to respond positively and obey, and will and work for His good pleasure, but he will, because he has a new spirit, even the Spirit, and walks in the Spirit. Again, not perfectly in this life, but for that man, the one who is a new creation in Christ, there is no more condemnation. So he walks in this newness of life and spirit, with God at work in him, as Paul says in Philippians 2:13, and as he has just said in Philippians 1:6, He Who began a good work in that man will ~ will, not "might or might not" ~ bring it to completion at the day of Christ.

I do NOT say it's entirely dependent on us. God does the work by sending His Son to die for our sins and having His word preached and speaking to our hearts by His Holy Spirit...

But that's what you're saying, essentially, even here, even in denying that you say it. God takes out our "heart of stone" and gives us a heart of flesh. He puts a new spirit in us, and thereby causes us to obey and walk according to His statutes. This is exactly what Ezekiel says in Ezekiel 11:19-20 and 36:26-27. This is not saying He "makes us" or "forces us to" obey and walk according to His statutes, but rather because of the new spirit that He has put in us, we then do it... as best we can in this life, because we are not yet glorified, but we surely well be. But yes, because of this new spirit we have been given, we are now of God, God is our Father, and we want to do His will, which is the change from how we were previous to being born again, when our father was the devil, and our desire was to do his will. I've said it before, but remember Jesus's conversations with two different groups of Jews in John 8 ("...you do what you have heard from your father... You are doing the works your father did... Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires") and John 10 ("you do not believe... you do not believe because you are not among my sheep").

, but we are responsible to choose how to respond to His offer of salvation that He offers to all people (Titus 2:11).

God's grace and granting of salvation, His giving us new birth in the Spirit, His placing us in Christ, demands responsibility and a continually positive response, to be sure. Fortunately, we have been granted the Spirit, so then, yes, again, we can.. and will... work out our own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in us, both to will and to work for His good pleasure (Philippians 2:13).

You try to remove man's responsibility completely from the equation...

Not at all. See directly above. It's just not the beginning of the equation but,,,, well, after the equals sign. <smile> If salvation depended on man's responsibility or action of any kind in the sense of making it come about, no one would be saved.

There is no basis for people being judged for eternity if man has no responsibility. Why you can't understand that is beyond me.

No, I actually agree with you on that, as I have said. And say here.

So, you ignore the "through faith" part and say it's by grace alone.

No, I say that the through faith... oh, hey, kudos on getting the "through" part right; that's very important... but yeah, the "through faith is a part of the grace. This faith that we have is from God. Which... maybe you're not denying, but if you are, you still haven't responded to my citation of 1 Corinthians 12 and specifically verse 9, which says that faith is a gift of the Spirit ~ God ~ which you have denied several times as I remember. By the way, wisdom and knowledge are gifts of the Spirit, too.

We are NOT guilty of sin at birth in any way,

Not any specific sins, so in that sense, no, but in the sense that we have sinful hearts, which is the issue regarding salvation, yes, absolutely, and even King David, the man after God's own heart, affirms it even of himself. So, maybe the sin in us hasn't outwardly manifested itself yet, at birth we have not actually yet sinned, but the sinful nature is just that, and we have it at birth. As Jeremiah says, the heart is deceitful above all things. And that's God's concern; the heart. Not the will, the heart. Because the heart drives the will. The root of the problem is the heart. As God says in Revelation 21:5, "Behold, I am making all things new." You and I, Spiritual Israelite, have been made new, and we are walking ~ hopefully ~ in this newness everyday... that is our responsibility. And our joy.

... blatantly contradict what Paul taught about when a person becomes dead in sin...

I blatantly reject what your thought regarding what Paul is talking about and saying there. Well, half of it actually, as I said, that a person becomes dead in sin. He is dead in sin, and in need of new birth by the Spirit. And this is the condiction of all men (and women, of course) from birth. If what you say is true here, that a person "becomes dead in sin," then Paul is contradicting himself here in comparison to what he says in Ephesians 2, that we were dead in the trespasses and sins in which we once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience ~ among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. There is no minimum age mentioned here by Paul, or any insinuation that this happened at like puberty or something... <smile>

...the parable in Luke 18:9-14. If the tax collector used his free will to decide to repent of his sins, acknowledge that he can't save himself and ask God for mercy...

Jesus's parable there is not a picture of his salvation, but his humility. He acknowledges his sinfulness, and that is the direct result of his having this new spirit, which God has given him. He now sees and knows his sinfulness, and this is because God has opened the eyes of his heart, and so now, yes, he repents and asks for mercy.

Continued...

 

[PinSeeker]

Now, this is not directly related, but very similar in a certain way, and I'll explain why:

Think of evangelism, SI. Paul says "So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ" (Romans 10:17). And again, faith, by definition, is the gift of God, assurance given by God, and conviction by the Spirit, the one Who convicts. In saying faith comes by hearing, I would submit to you that what Paul is saying there is very closely connected to what Jesus tells Nicodemus in John 3, that one must be born again to see the kingdom of God, particularly that "the wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit." There's nothing there about man's asking... <smile> That's a lot like what happened to the disciples at Pentecost... "suddenly there came from heaven a sound like a mighty rushing wind, and it filled the entire house where they were sitting. And divided tongues as of fire appeared to them and rested on each one of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance." Again, there was no asking. Jesus had told them what would happen, but there was never any asking.

So. In view of this, when you evangelize, do you think ~ and I hope you say no to this ~ do you think it depends on you to say "just the right thing" to persuade the person to whom you're talking to turn to Jesus? Well, no, it doesn't. If you fail, does that mean God has failed? Or really even that you have failed? No, it doesn't. The Spirit ~ Who is like the wind; see above ~ may work in the person's heart through what you say, through that person's hearing what you say, but it doesn't depend on you to say "just the right thing." It doesn't depend on you at all. No matter how strong or weak your power of persuasion, or the strength or power of your argument, that person's salvation still depends first on God's putting a new spirit in that person and thereby giving him... eyes to see, ears to hear, and so on.

And that's actually very freeing for us as evangelizers... It is God Who, in the words of Isaiah (35:5-6), opens the eyes of the blind, unstops the ears of the deaf. Then... and only then... will the man leap like a deer and, his tongue, no longer mute, sing for joy, As Paul says in Ephesians 2 and 2nd Corinthians 5, respectively, "God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ ~ by grace you have been saved ~ and raised us up with Him and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus," and "therefore, if anyone is in Christ, He is a new creation; the old has passed away; behold, the new has come." It's the same thing in our salvation. It depends first on God. Which is exactly what Paul says in multiple places (like Romans 3, 6, 9, and 11, Ephesians 1 and 2, in all his letters.

And so does John, in John 1 and 3 and in 1st and 2nd John, and Revelation, and the writer of Hebrews, and Peter, and James, and Jude. And they're echoing what has been said ~ and referring directly to, actually, what Moses, and Ezekiel, and Isaiah, and David, and all the prophets said throughout the Old Testament.

But yes then our responsibility kicks in... which really is everyone's responsibility, but only the ones who are born again of the Spirit will actually then desire to obey and do the will of God, because of their newness of heart, their having been born again of the Spirit, their having this new spirit put in them by God.

The sameness is unmistakable... the first cause is God in both successful evangelism and His granting our salvation. We are... as I said... on the right side of the equals sign. <smile>

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No, but I do think along the same lines as Paul and what he says in Philippians 2:13, in his exhortation to us, that we are able to "work out (our) own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in (us), both to will and to work for his good pleasure." I mean, you can think of that as "robotics" or "puppetry" if you want, but it's not. And this is not me speaking; this is the Word of God.

You apparently don't even understand what that verse is saying. You see the part about God working in us and ignore the part about us working our own salvation. That verse illustrates the cooperation between God and man that I have talked about before which is required for salvation. But, you deny that any cooperation is needed from man, thereby rendering Paul's command to "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" a complete joke and nothing to take seriously. God will not work in us if we don't cooperate with Him by submitting to Him. Stephen understood this which is why he said this to the unbelieving Jews who ended up stoning him to death:

Acts 7:51 “You stiff-necked people! Your hearts and ears are still uncircumcised. You are just like your ancestors: You always resist the Holy Spirit!

Because this is what sin does, and even as believers, we still sin.

When we are tempted to sin and don't sin, how does that happen? When we are tempted to sin and we do sin, how does that happen? Is the choice not ours whether to sin or not?

It's not "automatic;" that's ridiculous, but the answer is that we don't obey nearly perfectly, which is another way of saying we still sin. But, of course, as John says, if we confess our sins, God is faithful and just to forgive.

What if we don't confess our sins and we sin willfully and act like it doesn't matter if we sin or not? Or do you think that's somehow not possible to happen to a believer? If so, what do you make of this passage...

Hebrews 10:26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.

That's true, but it is first dependent on God.

Of course. I agree with this, but you think I don't. But, I do. Get that through your head. Man is responsible to choose how to respond to what God did to make salvation possible for everyone.

And If God chooses, and then at the appointed time gives the person new birth in the spirit by the Holy Spirit, then, yes, it is ~ in a sense, dependent on man to respond positively and obey, and will and work for His good pleasure, but he will, because he has a new spirit, even the Spirit, and walks in the Spirit.

LOL. This is more religious doublespeak from you. Give me a break with this nonsense already. There is NO sense in which man has any responsibility in salvation in your view. Why can you not acknowledge that? You prove that with statements like this. In your view, it is not possible that man will do anything but "respond positively and obey" because God makes it so that he only can "respond positively and obey" and can't possibly not "respond positively and obey".

Again, not perfectly in this life, but for that man, the one who is a new creation in Christ, there is no more condemnation. So he walks in this newness of life and spirit, with God at work in him, as Paul says in Philippians 2:13, and as he has just said in Philippians 1:6, He Who began a good work in that man will ~ will, not "might or might not" ~ bring it to completion at the day of Christ.

No more condemnation as long as he continues to have faith in Christ and not turn away from God until the end of his life.

Hebrews 3:12 See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called “Today,” so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness. 14 We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end.

Otherwise...

Hebrews 10:26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.

You're always only looking at part of the story. You interpret Philippians 1:6 in such a way that contradicts these other passages which give the other part of the story, which is that it we also have responsibility to cooperate with God. He will always do His part, but He does not make us do our part. Scripture repeatedly gives warning about falling away from the faith, including the passages I quoted above, but you apparently ignore all of them.

But that's what you're saying, essentially, even here, even in denying that you say it.

LOL. I love how you think you can tell me what I'm saying. Wrong! I will tell you what I mean. It's not up to you to decide what I'm intending to say.

God takes out our "heart of stone" and gives us a heart of flesh. He puts a new spirit in us, and thereby causes us to obey and walk according to His statutes. This is exactly what Ezekiel says in Ezekiel 11:19-20 and 36:26-27.

Yes, but that doesn't mean we always will. You said yourself that we often don't. So, what is your point here exactly then?

This is not saying He "makes us" or "forces us to" obey and walk according to His statutes, but rather because of the new spirit that He has put in us, we then do it... as best we can in this life, because we are not yet glorified, but we surely well be.

You say we do it as best we can. Do you think that is automatic that we will do it as best we can? Does God basically make it so that we will do the best we can with it not being possible for any of us to not do it the best we can?

When we see the warning giving to fellow Christians in Hebrews 3:12 to "See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God", is that just an empty threat that we don't need to pay any attention to?

God's grace and granting of salvation, His giving us new birth in the Spirit, His placing us in Christ, demands responsibility and a continually positive response, to be sure.

Can you elaborate on this? What exactly do you think we are responsible for and what are the consequences if we reject that responsibility that God has given us?

Fortunately, we have been granted the Spirit, so then, yes, again, we can.. and will... work out our own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in us, both to will and to work for His good pleasure (Philippians 2:13).

We can...and will, you say. But, the verse does not say that. The verse tells us the key to how we can work out our own salvation. By submitting to God. But, other scripture indicates that us submitting to God is not a guarantee or else we should remove passages like Hebrews 3:12-14, Hebrews 6:4-6 and Hebrews 10:26-27 from our Bibles.

Not at all. See directly above. It's just not the beginning of the equation but,,,, well, after the equals sign. <smile> If salvation depended on man's responsibility or action of any kind in the sense of making it come about, no one would be saved.

Show me the scripture which teaches this.

If that was true, then why did Paul and Silas tell the jailer that what he needed to do was believe in Jesus in order to be saved (Acts 16:30-31)? That's not the kind of answer you give to someone if salvation is not dependent at all on them.

What would you tell someone who came up to you and asked what they had to do to be saved? Would your answer be the same as Paul and Silas gave to the jailer who asked them that question?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No, I actually agree with you on that, as I have said. And say here.

No, you do not agree that there is no basis for people being judged for eternity if man has no responsibility. You said above that "If salvation depended on man's responsibility or action of any kind in the sense of making it come about, no one would be saved". So, what is the basis for anyone being condemned for eternity for not believing in Jesus (John 3:18) if salvation is not dependent at all "on man's responsibility or action of any kind in the sense of making it come about"? You contradict yourself often and this is just another example of that.

No, I say that the through faith... oh, hey, kudos on getting the "through" part right; that's very important

Well, that's what the text says. I don't deserve kudos for merely quoting the text and not changing it.

... but yeah, the "through faith is a part of the grace. This faith that we have is from God.

No, it isn't. But, we've already covered this 79 times so I'm not doing it again.

Which... maybe you're not denying, but if you are, you still haven't responded to my citation of 1 Corinthians 12 and specifically verse 9, which says that faith is a gift of the Spirit ~ God ~ which you have denied several times as I remember. By the way, wisdom and knowledge are gifts of the Spirit, too.

I have responded to that several times in the past when we have discussed this topic. You are talking about spiritual gifts and none of the spiritual gifts are given to every believer. Why do you fail to point that out when referring to 1 Corinthians 12:9? So, the kind of faith that it talks about as a spiritual gift is not saving faith since it's not given to every believer. Why do you not even take that into consideration? Why does context seemingly mean nothing to you?

1 Corinthians 12:4 There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit distributes them. 5 There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. 6 There are different kinds of working, but in all of them and in everyone it is the same God at work. 7 Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8 To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10 to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues.11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines.

Taking 1 Corinthians 12:9 in context, we can see that it is one of several spiritual gifts given by the Holy Spirit. But, the thing you don't even notice or acknowledge is that not all believers receive the spiritual gift of faith just as not everyone receives "a message of wisdom" and not everyone receives "gifts of healing" and not everyone is given the gift of speaking in tongues and so on. So, how can that possibly be referring to saving faith when it is not given to every believer? That makes no sense. Since this gift of faith is not given to all believers, then it must refer to an extra measure of faith needed to serve God in some way which requires that.

Not any specific sins, so in that sense, no, but in the sense that we have sinful hearts, which is the issue regarding salvation, yes, absolutely, and even King David, the man after God's own heart, affirms it even of himself. So, maybe the sin in us hasn't outwardly manifested itself yet, at birth we have not actually yet sinned, but the sinful nature is just that, and we have it at birth.

But, we are not guilty of sin and don't become dead in sin until we know what sin is, according to Paul in Romans 7:7-9.

As Jeremiah says, the heart is deceitful above all things. And that's God's concern; the heart. Not the will, the heart. Because the heart drives the will. The root of the problem is the heart. As God says in Revelation 21:5, "Behold, I am making all things new." You and I, Spiritual Israelite, have been made new, and we are walking ~ hopefully ~ in this newness everyday... that is our responsibility. And our joy.

I don't deny any of this. But, what you don't understand is that anyone can recognize the condition of their heart and humble themselves and acknowledge their condition before God and ask for mercy like the tax collector in the parable from Luke 18:9-14. You don't understand that all people are capable of either accepting or rejecting the conviction of the Holy Spirit in their hearts.

I blatantly reject what your thought regarding what Paul is talking about and saying there.

I don't care if you blatantly reject it. To me, that means you are blatantly rejecting the truth. And, what you said here, of course, means I blatantly reject your thought regarding what Paul was talking about and saying there as well.

Well, half of it actually, as I said, that a person becomes dead in sin.

What do you think Paul meant then when he said "Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died." (Romans 7:9)? I don't know what else that can mean except that he became dead in sin once he became aware of his sin. How can someone be guilty of sinning and be dead in sin if they don't even know what sin is?

He is dead in sin, and in need of new birth by the Spirit. And this is the condiction of all men (and women, of course) from birth.

No, it is not, and you are doing nothing to prove otherwise. There is no scripture which teaches that. But, I am using scripture to back up my view.

If what you say is true here, that a person "becomes dead in sin," then Paul is contradicting himself here in comparison to what he says in Ephesians 2, that we were dead in the trespasses and sins in which we once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience ~ among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

What are you talking about here? Where does Paul say that we once walked in trespasses and sins from birth? Nowhere.

There is no minimum age mentioned here by Paul, or any insinuation that this happened at like puberty or something...

LOL. So, let's just ignore what he said in Romans 7:7-9 and somehow assume he was talking about sinning from birth in Ephesians 2 even though he said no such thing at all?

Jesus's parable there is not a picture of his salvation, but his humility. He acknowledges his sinfulness, and that is the direct result of his having this new spirit, which God has given him. He now sees and knows his sinfulness, and this is because God has opened the eyes of his heart, and so now, yes, he repents and asks for mercy.

Good grief. Yep, denial is still not just a river in Egypt.

Jesus summed up His parable by saying this:

Luke 18:14 “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”

Jesus said that "this mean", the tax collector" was justified before God because of humbling himself. And He implied that the Pharisee was not justified before God because he exalted himself. But, you try to say the parable has nothing to do with salvation? Nonsense!