The Rapture Of The Church

[Christina]

His Spirit roams the earth and effects us the same way the spirit of Jesus affects us yet Christ is not here on earth. You have to remember Lucifer was made the full pattern i.e. the most beautiful and knowledgeable arch angel ever created. He was so powerful so knowledgeable that he even tempted Christ in the desert for forty days. He even thought he should be God/Christ thus became prideful and fell this is the battle that rages in heaven with Satan and his fallen angles that followed him Satan has always wanted to be God/Christ. However he is physically held by Michael till the Time he will be physically released to come to earth he will be claiming to be Christ returned.This is the Anti-christ in the Greek Anti means "instead" so anti-christ means instead of Christ or an impostor. So think about it if Satan were already here physically we would see him just as we saw Jesus when he was here.Ephesians 6:11-Tells us to put on our spiritual AmourEphesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, so we do not wrestle with a physical Satan but with the spirit of darkness (Satan) but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.(heaven) Now for Ezekiel 28:11-19This chapter is a vision, Ezekiel is being told of Lucifer's judgement, he remembers back to talk of when Lucifer walked in the garden, and ends with his final fate.There never was a question as to whether or not Satan was in the garden and at times walked to and fro upon the earth we know he was.What you are missing here is that Christ death on the cross was triumphant over death/sin (name's for Satan) from that time on he has physically been held in heaven by Michael only his spirit roams upon the earth.Now we are back to 2nd Thess. and Paul tell us the coming of our Lord and our gathering will not occur till after the man of lawlessness the man of sin(Satan) has been revealed to us i.e kicked out of heaven we are told about this: Luke 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. This is why this is so important if our bothers and sisters in Christ have not been taught this, how can they prepare their hearts for a fake christ to comelooking like Christ, performing counterfeit miracles as Christ did, claiming to be a man of peace. A delusion so strong even the very elect would be fooled if God does not shorten the time. So the only way we will know this is the false christ is to read Gods words. He has foretold us all things. and he has told us that Antichrist(Satan) comes first.Please continue to ask all the questions you have. I have much respect for a person that at least looks at the facts presented by the other side before making a choice.

 

[jodycour]

Lucifer was not a man, but an Angel. Lucifer will have to take the form of a man in the Anti-Christ.I know that Lucifer travel back and forth to heaven to accuse the brethern, but he was cast down to the earth, before the Garden. Reading the context of Eziekiel it doesnt sound like he is talking about a future event.I'm also curious what you guys might think concerning the Gap theory in Genesis 1-2?Do you think that there was a Pre-Adamic age?

 

[Christina]

(jodycour;11940)
Lucifer was not a man, but an Angel. Lucifer will have to take the form of a man in the Anti-Christ.I know that Lucifer travel back and forth to heaven to accuse the brethern, but he was cast down to the earth, before the Garden. Reading the context of Eziekiel it doesnt sound like he is talking about a future event.I'm also curious what you guys might think concerning the Gap theory in Genesis 1-2?Do you think that there was a Pre-Adamic age?
Yes Lucifer is an arch angel as I said.You must remember we are made in the image of God and the Angels. There for Lucifer already looks like man.I agree about Ez But you need to pay close attention to context. Ez. is talking of the past when Lucifer walked in the garden. What does that have to do with him being held by Michael Now? Since Christ's death only his spirit(air) has roamed the earth.Rev.12 John is in the mist of a vision telling us what is to soon happen in the end days.Rev.12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.We are told that Satan,the Devil is kicked down to earth. If he was already here why would we be warned that he is coming? Follow me for a moment if you willSatan is kicked down to earth in the sixth trump remember above we are told by Paul in 2 Thess. That the coming of our Lord is at the Last(7th) trump after the man of sin(Satan) and the rebellion takes place.6 comes before 7 every time. Satan comes claiming to be christ in the sixth trump. rebelling against God. Christ and our gathering to him comes after this at the Last(7th) trump.Gods word becomes easier if throw out mens trations and simply read what he says.

 

[Christina]

(jodycour;11940)
I'm also curious what you guys might think concerning the Gap theory in Genesis 1-2?Do you think that there was a Pre-Adamic age?
I believe what Gods word says That one of Gods days is 1000 years long.There for the creation week alone is 7000 years long, Making mans teaching that the the earth is only some 6000 thousand years long wrong 2nd Peter 3:8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 2Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. Now to take this a step further I believe the language in other verses in 2nd Peter also refers to three world ages, One that was, one is now, and one to come. I believe science and the Bible, for the most part do not disagree on this matter of age of the earth. I find it illogical to say that geology, astronomy, archaeology ext. are all wrong by millions of years when God tells me no where is the earth only 6,000 years old but in fact leads to the belief that the earth is much older. I also really don't think it makes to much difference to us in this age, except for a better understanding of Satan's rebellion,and Gods overall plan. God wants us concerned about this age and time So he didn't give us much information about this first earth age.

 

[jodycour]

Rev.12:9The great dragon was cast out. (past tense)

 

[Christina]

Thats your reasoning? was?John is in the min-st of his vision and he is saying I saw Satan was cast out. (this is first hand witness)past can mean one second like if you saw the car speed past you. This is called giving a prophecy (future vision ) as is the majority of Rev. Not a look back

 

[jodycour]

What about the woman and Her seed where the serpent bites His heel, and He crushes his head?

 

[betchevy]

You Know,all You Rapurists, Have A Nice Trip!

 

[n2thelight]

Revelation 12:1 "And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:In the chapter twelve we leave the last three and a half year period, and return all the way back to the world that was [the first earth age]; and some of the events that happened in the world that was. Then we take a fast sweep through God's plan up to the first day of the Millennium. All of these events recorded in this twelfth chapter may be some-what confusing to you.This "wonder" is a great sign in the heavens. The "woman" here is not the church, for a church building has never delivered any child. This "mother" has nothing to do with the church. This woman is "Israel", the twelve sons of Jacob, or tribes [John 16:21].The same political and social order that was in existence at the end of the first earth age, prior to this age of flesh man, will be ruling over the earth at the end of our current earth age. Fix in your mind that the time period that is being spoken of here is that time when the souls of men were not in the flesh, it was in that first earth age before the events following Genesis 1:2. Revelation 12:2 "And she being with child, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered."This "child" to be delivered is the Messiah, and the woman delivering the child is the symbol of "Israel", however, in the physical sense of this earth age, we call her "Mary". It is Satan's sole purpose to destroy this child. This woman is the wife and the son of Almighty God, and God wants us to feel and understand the events occurring then. What happens to them affects Him, exactly as it would you or I in a similar case.Revelation 12:3 "And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, haven seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads."This wonder, the "Great red dragon", is always Satan. Here again, it is all happening in heaven, prior to Genesis 1:2, in the first earth age. All these events will be just like it will be at the end of this earth age. Satan had seven dominions then, with ten agencies of power and that had their authority. Satan had complete universal control over that prior earth kingdom; and he had total political control. This we will see in Revelation 13, is a copy of this earth age, and the United Nations, with it's ten units of power, taking control over all it's dominions. Though the forms of government and their systems appear at first to be the same, we will see the differences between these two ages: That of the first, and the flesh age we are now in. Revelation 12:4 "And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born."The "stars" of heaven are the "sons of God". This "old dragon" caused one third of all of God's creation to follow him. One third of God's children, are all those in their "soul bodies", are also called "angelic souls". No my friend, they do not have wings, but the cherubs do. What it is saying here, is through Satan's fall in the first earth age, he drew one third of God's children to him. He caused them to fall, and they worshipped him, and believed in him to be their God. That is also his desire also for this age; to cause you and I, the children of God, to worship him.When we read that "all living came from mother Eve", it means that "Messiah came from, or through mother Eve". He came through the offspring of mothers Eve, and Mary. And it is through the Messiah, Christ is offering eternal life to all mankind. For acceptance of God's gift, all mankind must pass from death to eternal life through the blood of Jesus Christ. So we see this refers to spiritual life, and not necessarily physical life. Revelation 12:5 "And she brought forth a man child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne."The "man child" that was brought forth in the little town of Bethlehem when Jesus the Christ child was born. There are only two events that sit upon this throne, and the only one to do this was a child. Get it? That child is Jesus Christ.This verse covers two advents [comings]; the first is Christ's birth as a child, and His second coming will be at the seventh trumpet. Then He will come to rule all nations with a rod of iron. Jesus Christ will come as the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. Revelation 12:6 "And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her a thousand two hundred and threescore days."This time is when God's protection is given for the woman "Israel". Following the resurrection, and transposing these days into years, it would bring us up to the early 1800's A.D., when the house of Israel nations became superpowers. Revelation 12:7 "And there was war in heaven: Mi'-cha-el and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,,"This event brings us back into heaven. The war is between Satan [the dragon] and his angels, who are fighting against Michael and his angels. Satan will lose. Revelation 12:8 "And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven."This is the time of the sounding of the fifth trumpet, when Satan and his fallen angels are released upon the earth for the final five months period, spoken of in Revelation 9:5, 10. Satan will spend five months here on earth deceiving all mankind, then go to the pit for the thousand years. After that thousand years, Satan [not his fallen angels] will be released for a short period, then go to perdition [perish]. Once Satan is kicked out of heaven, he will not be allowed to return. Today Satan is in heaven accusing the saints before the Lord. This is prophesy that will come in the very near future. Revelation 12:9 "And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Sa'-tan, which deceived the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."If you were ever confused who Satan is, John calls him by the names he used while playing his different roles on earth. The "dragon" is Satan's role in that first earth age, when one third of all of God's children followed him. Satan's evil spirit is allowed on earth now, along with his demons. However, you haven't seen Satan in person yet. Satan and his angels, both physically and bodily, will come to earth just as they did in Genesis 6.When Satan is cast out it will be as it was in the days of Noah. This is what Jesus said in Matthew 24:37: "But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be." Mankind will be mixing with the angels, and the women even marrying them just as was going on in Noah's day before the flood. Sodomy will be common, and all forms of filth will be made public, and accepted and considered normal. The world and the kenite influence is preparing us, and our mind to accept all forms of filth in sex and marriage as being natural; and to consider their perversion as being of God.Your acceptance and view of this filth of sodomy and religious form will tell you to what state of depravity your mind has sunk. The condition of your soul will be determined by what you know, and how you stand on these issues, at Satan's arrival to earth. Revelation 12:10 "And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power [authority] of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night."This is why Satan's other name is "the accuser", for he continually stands before God's throne accusing all the saints of God. When you mess up, Satan will let God know about it. That is why it is important for us to repent immediately when we become aware of sin in our lives. Then all barriers between God and us are removed. Satan will continue to accuse you before God, right up to the time he is caste out to the earth.Revelation 12:11 "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death."When Satan and his fallen angles are cast out onto the earth, the "elect" and those who have the seal of God in their minds will overcome them through the power given them in Christ's blood. You are the "elect" when you understand who Satan is, and what will come to pass. God has promised you and I that we have power over Satan, and God's protection is extended to each of those sealed in their minds. "The word" of your testimony will allow you to overcome them, you won't even premeditate what to say, for God, through the Holy Spirit, will put the words in your mouth. The death that comes is to the "two witnesses" only, and to them it is for 84 hours [three and a half days].Revelation 12:12 "Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time."When Satan is caste out, those dear souls in heaven will start a celebration in heaven. Those are the dear Christians that have died and are in heaven with the Father. However, Satan [the devil] is coming to earth with his angels to bring the wrath of their deception with them. Satan is not after your body, but after your soul. Satan knows God's word, and the judgment passed upon him. He is sentenced to death already, and he knows his time is short. He will come to earth with his bag of tricks, and lying wonders, and the with authority from God to deceive every man on this earth. The only exception is to those who have the seal [knowledge] of God [written in God's Word] in their minds for they will not be deceived. If you have not taken the time to put that truth in his Word into your mind, you will fall for Satan's razzle-dazzle sideshow of tricks. Satan will walk this earth with his fallen angels, and you will see them, hear their speech and even present themselves as fellow men. You are not going to fly out of here, but face them in this generation, and you will either stand against Satan and his realm, or you will fall. What is at stake here is your soul, and not your flesh body.Revelation 12:13 "And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child."We see the woman here again, "Israel", who is now identified and promoting Jesus Christ. Though Satan has the rest of the heathen world, but also he wants your soul. If you still think the woman [Israel] are the Jews, It will be almost impossible for you to understand this. For "Israel" is the offspring also of the ten tribes that were scattered. Yet today they exist in large part as the Christian nations of the world. The prophet Hosea identified them in Hosea 1:10.Hosea 1:10 "Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured not numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, `Ye are not My People,' there it shall be said unto them, `Ye are the sons of the living God.' "Hosea is calling attention to the time of the end, to the house of Israel in the end times and how they will be remembered. In the locations where each of these tribes are located, not in Palestine, but in Europe, America or where ever those nations are established. There this house of Israel will just not consider themselves as Israel, but as Gentile nations. However also, in that location they will call themselves "sons of the living God". Jesus Christ is the "Living God" and those that are sons of God are called Christians. This could not be the Jews under any condition for they do not consider Jesus Christ as the Son of God, or in any form of deity. The race "Caucasian" are the peoples of the old "House of Israel", who went through the Caucasus Mountains after 722 B.C., and settled throughout western Europe, and colonized elsewhere around the world. They are the Christian nations. These are people who represent the woman who brought forth the manchild, Jesus Christ, and God's salvation to the world. The persecution then is caused by the deceiving of these Christians into following Satan.Revelation 12:14 "And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent." The two wings of this great eagle are going to spread into this wilderness with truth. They are going to place in the minds of this "woman" [Israel], God's elect, the truth. Then the elect will understand who Satan is, and all the supernatural events that are around him.Revelation 12:15 "And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood."The "flood" is a flood of lies and deception. Are they aimed at the heathen religions? No! Satan is after the Christians, and his camouflage in his appearance is that of Jesus Christ. Jesus is the only one to claim Himself to be the "Son of God", and by that laid the claim to be the only way of salvation. That is the name and position that Satan wants, and he is out to get from you. Satan already has the rest of the world deceived. The "woman" is you, and anyone else who professes to be a Christian. Even Gentiles that have accepted the Lord Jesus Christ are grafted in and part of the tree of Israel. We then are the target of this flood of lies and deceptions coming from the mouth of Satan, and Satan will have his revivals and church services. Revelation 12:16 "And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth."The sword of God is the truth of God's Word, and this is what came out of Jesus Christ's mouth. In turn, what comes out of the mouth of Satan will be a flood of lies and deceptions that will make up his false religion. Satan will take the Word of God and twist and distort it into his lies to appear to be of God. Satan [the Antichrist] will make it look so good and positive, that the unlearned of the Scriptures will take it as truth. Most denominations today are infiltrated with Kenites in their church leadership, and have allowed their teaching in their seminaries, that the positions of in their doctrines they are ready to place themselves into the Antichrist's system. They will accept the Antichrist [Satan] as their Messiah. They will be proud to proclaim themselves to be part of that one world system of Satan's. This is why it is important to check out God's holy Word for yourself.Revelation 12:17 "And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."Are you going to keep the commandments of God? If so, you are part of this woman Satan is warring against. Satan is angry over you, yet you have the power over him. The war of the latter days is not fought with guns and rockets, but with words and doctrines, with concepts that come right out of the Bible. It is a spiritual warfare, and the battlefield is in your mind. To be ready for that war, you must have your spiritual armor on and in place, and be ready to do spiritual battle with Satan and all his realm. The dragon knows who you are very well, and he knows your weaknesses. That is the reason that we must be armed with the Spirit and Word of God, for it will be the Holy Spirit that speaks through you in that day.http://www.theseason.org/revelation/revelation12.htm

 

[betchevy]

WONDERFUL POST brother N2 and I would like to add this from Daniel 11:31-39 notice if you take the time to read it that the false jesus ,the antichrist in verse Daniel 11:38 "shall honor with silver and gold.." hes going to buy those who do not study the Word and the truth in it. Look at the verses in Daniel 8:24-25 and by peace he shall destroy many... he is coming as a false christ acting as we think Christ should act... be warned and be ready. And if you think it cannot be satan because he hasn't asked you to place 666 on your forehead.. then you have fallen for another trick.. For if you believe in rapture, you are marked already in your forehead , you believe satan's lies already and when he comes offering gold and silver in peace and looking like the lamb.. you are going to be one of the foolish virgins who have no oil in their lamps, not one whit of the truth of the Word in your brains..and soon you'll be worshipping the wrong christ the false one, because he doesn't look like what you have been taught all these years.

 

[JesusReigns]

(betchevy;12075)
WONDERFUL POST brother N2 and I would like to add this from Daniel 11:31-39 notice if you take the time to read it that the false jesus ,the antichrist in verse Daniel 11:38 "shall honor with silver and gold.." hes going to buy those who do not study the Word and the truth in it. Look at the verses in Daniel 8:24-25 and by peace he shall destroy many... he is coming as a false christ acting as we think Christ should act... be warned and be ready. And if you think it cannot be satan because he hasn't asked you to place 666 on your forehead.. then you have fallen for another trick.. For if you believe in rapture, you are marked already in your forehead , you believe satan's lies already and when he comes offering gold and silver in peace and looking like the lamb.. you are going to be one of the foolish virgins who have no oil in their lamps, not one whit of the truth of the Word in your brains..and soon you'll be worshipping the wrong christ the false one, because he doesn't look like what you have been taught all these years.
"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants things which must SHORTLY take place. . . . Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is NEAR" (Rev. 1:1, 3)."Then he (angel) said to me, 'These words are FAITHFUL and TRUE.' And the Lord God of the holy prophets sent His angel to show His servants the things which must SHORTLY take place" (Rev. 22:6)."Behold, I am COMING QUICKLY" (Rev. 22:7)."Behold, I am COMING QUICKLY" (Rev. 22:12)."Surely, I am COMING QUICKLY" (Rev. 22:20).Timing, timing, timing!Daniel 9, 12, Matthew 24, and the Revelation ALL speak of the same time frame--AD 66-70! You will never get the Revelation correct until you place it in its proper historical setting!JesusReigns

 

[JesusReigns]

(kriss;11950)
I believe what Gods word says That one of Gods days is 1000 years long.There for the creation week alone is 7000 years long, Making mans teaching that the the earth is only some 6000 thousand years long wrong 2nd Peter 3:8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 2Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. Now to take this a step further I believe the language in other verses in 2nd Peter also refers to three world ages, One that was, one is now, and one to come. I believe science and the Bible, for the most part do not disagree on this matter of age of the earth. I find it illogical to say that geology, astronomy, archaeology ext. are all wrong by millions of years when God tells me no where is the earth only 6,000 years old but in fact leads to the belief that the earth is much older. I also really don't think it makes to much difference to us in this age, except for a better understanding of Satan's rebellion,and Gods overall plan. God wants us concerned about this age and time So he didn't give us much information about this first earth age.
WITH THE LORD a day is as a thousands years . . . . I wish you people who keep quoting 2 Peter 3 to ineffectively defend negating the impact of time references would finish the verse--a thousand years is as a day. Can I take this to mean that the "thousand-year" millennium is only one day long! Ridiculous? Yes! And so is saying that a day is a thousand years! Peter is speaking about time from God's perspective. But when God speaks to us, He speaks within the time constraints that we understand. Therefore, when He says "day" when speaking of the passage of time, He means a literal day. When He says "soon," He means soon as we understand it. When He says "shortly," He means shortly as we understand it. That is the essence of communication--speaking so that one's listeners can understand the message!When God created our world, He also created time limits! That is what is spoken of in Genesis 1--God is establishing the time frame for the world in which we were to live--24-hour days!Here's the problem--and this relates to Bible prophecy as well. Scientists (unregenerate and oftentimes God-hating scientists) claim that the earth is millions of years old. Christians accept this as undeniable, even though there are many scientists (mostly Christians) who teach a young earth. A gap is then CREATED between Gensis 1:1 and 1:2--not because it is clearly seen there but because, having accepted the teachings of men, some feel compelled to invent it! The same is true of the so-called gap between Daniel's 69th week and the70th week. Having misunderstood the events of the 70th week and thereby not seeing its fulfillment directly following the 69th week, too many, out of necessity, CREATE a gap in order to reconcile their false system to the teachings of Scripture.Neither of these "gaps" were established by God--they were invented by men!Consider this:If you want to make the days (yom) of Genesis be something other than a 24-hour time frame, what do you do with "evening and morning." Do we now redefine those words as well? Do we have a 500-year evening followed by a five-hundred year morning? Did the sun shine for 500 years and then the moon took over for the next 500 years? How did the plants and animals survive with 500 years of light and 500 years of darkness? They could not have!What about the lights in the firmament--what was their job? They were to "be for signs and seasons, and for days and years" (Gen. 1:14). We all know the significance of the sun and the moon in our days and seasons and years. Our calendars are based upon this law. How we think of time today is based upon how God originally created it!What about seasons? What is a season with a thousand-year day? "Seasons" makes no sense without a literal 24-hour day! And neither do years. Must we now redefine those as well? There are approximately 3 months for each season--about 90 days. Did every season, then, last 90,000years? How could anything survive which God created? If one day is 1,000 years, how long is one year? You do the math!A famous newsman (I think it was Peter Jennings but I don't remember) once asked Pat Buchanan "How could God create the world in just seven days?" I wrote this newsman and said "Your God is so small you ask how he could create the world in just sevens days. My God is so big that I often wonder what took Him so long!We must not invent what God did not establish!JesusReigns

 

[Jordan]

JesusReigns...if you believe in this...II Peter 3:8 - But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day....that ONE day (to God) = a THOUSAND human years...and a THOUSAND years (to God) = ONE humans day, You are so self contradicting yourself, and you are also contradicting God's Words. You are trying to make God (who is eternal) that He is stuck in time, while we sinners move forward in time while we are not eternal? Nay.It means this....that ONE day (to God) = a THOUSAND human years...and a THOUSAND years to us = ONE day (to God.)I John 2:8 - Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.Lovest thou in Christ Jesus (Yahshua) our Lord and Saviour.P.S. Hebrews 13:8 - Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

 

[jodycour]

So Kriss,According to your own statements, there can be things in a Revelation, or Vision from God that does point to the past, Hence the woman representing Isreal, the Child meaning the Messiah, the Serpent Meaning Lucipher which are events that happened before John's Revelation.So it is possible that in Ezekiel He is speaking about Lucifer being kicked out in the past!

 

[Christina]

Ezekiel 28:11-19 11Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, 12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty. (Satan made the full pattern a Beatiful being) 13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. (Past, Satan was in Eden) 14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. (Satan walked on Gods holy moutaingiven authority) 15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. (Satan was perfect till inquity/pride was found in him ) 16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. (Satan is being told of his fate I will cast you of the mountain I will destroy thee (is Satan destroyed?) 17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. (Satan is to be cast to the ground,and laid before Kings that will behold/see him ( Has this ever happened?) 18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. (Satan will be brought upon the earth and turned into ashes in sight of all) Has this happened?19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.(All that knew him will be astonished and he shall be no more)( Has this Happened?)This entire Chapter is about Lucifer his creation, were he walked, his downfall his final fate.at the end So, yes, this talks of his past in the garden BUT the chapter is about him from his beginning to his End.John on the other hand is only describing what he sees happening at the End of Days Satan is a part of this yes but John would have no logical reasoning here to go back and discuss Satan in the Garden. What is the SUBJECT John is talking about? THE END not the beginning. How does Ez say Satan will end? In view of everyone. Have you seen him anywhere? Has anyone ever physically seen him ? Remember he will be burneddragged before Kings this is a physical being.Where is he?Held by Michael. Until the 6th trump when he is kicked off the mountain to earth. This is where John picks ups the story with his vision. And gives us the details of what will happen in the future. Luke also tells you he saw Satan get kicked out so you have two witnesstelling you Satan comes to earth Physically after being kicked from heaven.There is nothing here to support Satan is currently on earth.except in Spirit.Luke 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

 

[n2thelight]

JRI wish you people who keep quoting 2 Peter 3 to ineffectively defend negating the impact of time references would finish the verse--a thousand years is as a day. Can I take this to mean that the "thousand-year" millennium is only one day long!
The instant Christ returns will be the start of the millennium,in which this time is also known as the Lords Day,so the answer to your question would be yes,it will be a day,but time as we know it now will not be the same for we will all be in our spiritual bodies.Lets go to Genesis for a secGenesis 2:17 "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."Now most people who don't understand this verse will tell you that Adam did not die that day,but if you catch the deeper meaning you will see that he did die that day(Gods time).As long as the people lived back then ,no one ever lived past a thousand years.with the oldest being Methuselah, who was 969 when he died.
But when God speaks to us, He speaks within the time constraints that we understand. Therefore, when He says "day" when speaking of the passage of time, He means a literal day
Guess Gen 2:17 just kills your literal day.Now about your young earth ,check out this study,and get back to meIn the beginning...." These are the first three English words in the Bible. But when was this beginning? Did it begin a mere six-thousand years ago with Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden? What does the Bible tell us? As with all of God's word, there is so much more written just below the surface right there before our eyes, hidden to most but there for the discovery of all. Let's dig it out! We will study what God's Word, The Bible, says about the beginning; the beginning of not only the history of the creation of the world as we now know it today, but also the creation of the world that then was, as well as the world that is to come (Heaven). These are known as Earth Ages, and there are three of them spoken of in the Bible; we will learn of them in this study. We will also read of time-gap in scriptures, a great flood and destruction other than and before Noah's flood; we will even read of dinosaurs in the scriptures. Unfortunately, due to the lack of quality in-depth teaching of God's written Word, many Christians have been led into confusion regarding foundational truths that are so very important to our understanding of the whole of God's Word and His plan. There is a plan and a "theme" to the Bible and it flows from Genesis through Revelation. But how can we understand the ending of God's plan (Revelation) if we don't fully understand the beginning (Genesis)? Today we will study several key scriptures in the Bible that many of us have just read over without fully understanding the deeper truths that were contained within them. Understanding these key fundamental truths is vital to understanding the whole of God's Word. But due to the false teachings and the half truths that we have been exposed to our entire life, often we must first unlearn the untruths, before we can learn the truths of God's most Perfect Word, The Bible. This present topic (the beginning) is so very important because it will shatter a myth that has caused many intelligent well intentioned souls to disregard the Bible because they feel that the Bible goes against good, hard scientific fact; although in reality, nothing could actually be further from the truth. You may have been told at some point by some of the unlearned within the 'religious community' that this earth is only six-thousand years old because of the fact that it is when God formed Adam in the Garden of Eden (4004 BC). And then you go to a museum and see entire skeletal remains of dinosaurs that have been Potassium-Argon dated to millions of years old! Carbon 14 and Potassium-Argon dating are reported by Scientists to be quite accurate, although great care must be used in the testing of the specimen for results to be accurate. But it is only through God's perfect laws of nature and the very science that He gave us to explore and harness; that we are even able to date these items at all. Carbon 14 and Potassium-Argon dating calculate the deterioration or transformation of certain elements. These elements deteriorate or transform at a constant rate and thus allow us to determine the age that a certain organic specimen was alive.You can read the rest herehttp://biblestudysite.com/begin.htmIf you don't understand the beginning,you won't understand the end

 

[JesusReigns]

(thesuperjag;12101)
JesusReigns...if you believe in this...II Peter 3:8 - But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day....that ONE day (to God) = a THOUSAND human years...and a THOUSAND years (to God) = ONE humans day, You are so self contradicting yourself, and you are also contradicting God's Words. You are trying to make God (who is eternal) that He is stuck in time, while we sinners move forward in time while we are not eternal? Nay.It means this....that ONE day (to God) = a THOUSAND human years...and a THOUSAND years to us = ONE day (to God.)I John 2:8 - Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.Lovest thou in Christ Jesus (Yahshua) our Lord and Saviour.P.S. Hebrews 13:8 - Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
thesuperjag: Please read 2 Peter 3:8 again. It does NOT say that with the Lord a day IS a thousand years but that a day is AS a thousand years. In other words, a day with the Lord or a thousand years with the Lord means nothing TO HIM. But He has placed us WITHIN the time that HE created! It is within THAT time in which HE placed us that He communicates with us so that we can understand!I am NOT contradicting myself. I am NOT sticking God in time! He is outside of time, yet He placed us within TIME and He communicates with us within a time reference that does NOT affect Him or confine Him. Why don't you understand what I am saying?You are the one who must then answer why a thousand-year millennium is not in actuality only one day long! That is the rest of the verse! If one day, as you say, equals a thousand years to God then a thousands years equals one day to God! Right? Or are you contradicting yourself?This false understanding of 2 Peter 3:8 is nothing more than a desperate attempt on the part of those who refuse to accept the clear time references in the Bible. How convenient, when one sees the words AT HAND, and ABOUT TO, and SOON, and SHORTLY, to be able to reason away thie impact by an appeal to 2 Peter 3:8. That is not what 2 Peter 3:8 means!JesusReigns

 

[jodycour]

Kriss,I believe you are partially right.When God said that Lucifer was trafficking, I believe he was talking about the pre-Adamic age that he was decieving!In Luke Jesus did'nt say that He saw him fall physically, but his spirit falling. Lucifer is a Spiritual being that will have to take on the form of man when he enters the Anti-Christ.

 

[JesusReigns]

(n2thelight;12136)
The instant Christ returns will be the start of the millennium,in which this time is also known as the Lords Day,so the answer to your question would be yes,it will be a day,but time as we know it now will not be the same for we will all be in our spiritual bodies.Lets go to Genesis for a second.Genesis 2:17 "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."Now most people who don't understand this verse will tell you that Adam did not die that day,but if you catch the deeper meaning you will see that he did die that day(Gods time).As long as the people lived back then ,no one ever lived past a thousand years.with the oldest being Methuselah, who was 969 when he died.Guess Gen 2:17 just kills your literal day.Now about your young earth ,check out this study,and get back to meIn the beginning...." These are the first three English words in the Bible. But when was this beginning? Did it begin a mere six-thousand years ago with Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden? What does the Bible tell us? As with all of God's word, there is so much more written just below the surface right there before our eyes, hidden to most but there for the discovery of all. Let's dig it out! We will study what God's Word, The Bible, says about the beginning; the beginning of not only the history of the creation of the world as we now know it today, but also the creation of the world that then was, as well as the world that is to come (Heaven). These are known as Earth Ages, and there are three of them spoken of in the Bible; we will learn of them in this study. We will also read of time-gap in scriptures, a great flood and destruction other than and before Noah's flood; we will even read of dinosaurs in the scriptures. Unfortunately, due to the lack of quality in-depth teaching of God's written Word, many Christians have been led into confusion regarding foundational truths that are so very important to our understanding of the whole of God's Word and His plan. There is a plan and a "theme" to the Bible and it flows from Genesis through Revelation. But how can we understand the ending of God's plan (Revelation) if we don't fully understand the beginning (Genesis)? Today we will study several key scriptures in the Bible that many of us have just read over without fully understanding the deeper truths that were contained within them. Understanding these key fundamental truths is vital to understanding the whole of God's Word. But due to the false teachings and the half truths that we have been exposed to our entire life, often we must first unlearn the untruths, before we can learn the truths of God's most Perfect Word, The Bible. This present topic (the beginning) is so very important because it will shatter a myth that has caused many intelligent well intentioned souls to disregard the Bible because they feel that the Bible goes against good, hard scientific fact; although in reality, nothing could actually be further from the truth. You may have been told at some point by some of the unlearned within the 'religious community' that this earth is only six-thousand years old because of the fact that it is when God formed Adam in the Garden of Eden (4004 BC). And then you go to a museum and see entire skeletal remains of dinosaurs that have been Potassium-Argon dated to millions of years old! Carbon 14 and Potassium-Argon dating are reported by Scientists to be quite accurate, although great care must be used in the testing of the specimen for results to be accurate. But it is only through God's perfect laws of nature and the very science that He gave us to explore and harness; that we are even able to date these items at all. Carbon 14 and Potassium-Argon dating calculate the deterioration or transformation of certain elements. These elements deteriorate or transform at a constant rate and thus allow us to determine the age that a certain organic specimen was alive.You can read the rest herehttp://biblestudysite.com/begin.htmIf you don't understand the beginning,you won't understand the end
'n2thelight: First of all, I wish you would use quotes when you copy from others. It makes it much easier for me to see what YOU wrote and what OTHERS wrote. Why do you so easily accept the findings of Potassium-Argon dating as set in cement and irrefutable? Note the following from Kent Hovind and Harold M. Lind: (All underlining, bolding, and italics are mine)!"CARBON 14 AND POTASSIUM-ARGON DATINGReference Information from Kent Hovind(Compiled and Comments by Harold M. Lind)Carbon 14 dating, what is it, and what are the problems with it?The earth’s atmosphere is about 100 miles thick. It contains 78% nitrogen, 21% oxygen, .06% carbon dioxide, and .0000765% radioactive carbon (c14), which mix equally with the other normal CO2 by the wind currents. This radioactive carbon 14 is inhaled and absorbed by animals and plants. The sun produces carbon 14 by striking the atmosphere and converting the nitrogen (atomic weight of 14) to carbon (atomic weight of 12) by knocking a few particles off of it. Because the carbon came from nitrogen, it is unstable and radioactive. From testing, scientists believe that carbon 14 breaks back down to nitrogen at the rate of ½ every 5,730 years (half life).During photosynthesis plants breath in CO2 and make it part of their tissue (some of it is C and some C14). Animals eat plants and make it part of their bodies. We eat plants and animals, so we have it too. When something dies, it stops taking in C14. It is assumed that the ratio of radioactive C14 to normal C12 in the atmosphere would be the same ratio found in the living plants and animals. Scientists assume that you should have .0000765% of C14 in your body.By measuring the amount and given that it decays by ½ every 5,730 years, you should be able to get an estimation for how old something is. It should be noted that after about 5 half lives, it becomes almost impossible to detect the level of C14. This means that assuming that there is nothing else wrong with C14, it may only be accurate for about 40,000 yearsSo you can’t date things as being millions of years old, let along billions of years with C14.An assumption is made that the amount of C14 in the atmosphere has always been the same. The amount of C14 in the atmosphere has actually been increasing. . It has not reached equilibrium yet. It has been estimated that it would take 30,000 years for the earth to reach equilibrium. Because scientists believed that the earth was billions of years old, they assumed that C14 had reached equilibrium. The problem is that it hasn’t. There is more C14 in the atmosphere today than there was a decade ago. The calibration curve for C14 dating measures the number of Geiger counter clicks in a minute. If you tested a living thing, you would expect to get 16 clicks per minute, which would mean the C14 in the organism has gone through 0 years of decay. If you got 8 clicks a minute it would be 1 half-life and be 5,730 years old. 4 clicks would be 11,460, etc. As you get down to 1 or 2 clicks, you are pretty much at the limit. The problem is that science can only measure the amount of C14 in the fossil and know the rate of decay today. They don’t know if the rate of decay has been constant, nor how much C14 was in the atmosphere thousands of years ago.. If there was a covering of water around the earth as is alluded to in the Bible, this would have blocked X-Ray and UV Radiation. This would have caused there to not be much C14 in the original atmosphere. This may have meant that a living organism only gave off 4 clicks a minute when it was 0 years old. If we used our scale on the fossil after it died, and it was measuring 2 clicks, we would say it was 17,190 years old, when it was really under 6000 years old.Some examples of why C14 is not a good system for measuring age: 1. Living mollusk shells were carbon dated as being 2300 years old. (Science vol. 141, 1963 pp. 634-637). 2. A freshly killed seal was carbon dated as having died 1300 years ago. (Antarctic Journal, vol. 6 Sept-Oct. 1971, p. 211). 3. Shells from living snails were carbon dated as being 27,000 years old. (Science vol. 224, 1984, pp. 58-61). 4. One part of the Vollosovitch mammoth carbon dated at 29,500 years old and another part at 44,000. (Troy L. Pewe, Quarternary Stratigraphic Nomenclature in Unglaciated Central Alaska, Geological Survey Professional Paper 862, p. 30). 5. One part of Dima, a baby frozen mammoth, was 40,000, another part was 26,000 and the wood immediately around the carcass was 9-10,000 years old” (Troy L. Pewe, Quarternary Stratigraphic Nomenclature in Unglaciated Central Alaska, Geological Survey Professional Paper 862, p. 30). 6. The lower leg of the Fairbanks Creek mammoth had a radiocarbon age of 15,380 RCY (Radio Carbon Years), while its skin and flesh were 21,300 RCY. (Harold E. Anthony, Natures Deep Freeze. Natural History, Sept. 1949, p. 300). 7. The two Colorado Creek, AK Mammoths had radiocarbon ages of 22,850 and 16,150 respectively. (Robert M. Thorson and R. Dale Guthrie, Stratigraphy of the Colorado Creek Mammoth Locality, Alaska. Quaternary Research, vol. 37, no. 2, March 1992, pp. 214-228). 8. Living Penguins have been dated as being 8,000 years old. 9. Material from layers where dinosaurs are found carbon dated at 34,000 years old. (R. Daly, Earth’s Most Challenging Mysteries, 1972, p. 280). 10. Russian scientists Kusnetsov and Ivanov carbon dated dinosaur bones at less than 30,000 years. (Strange Stores, Amazing Facts, Readers Digest, 1978, p. 335). 11. Hugh Miller, Columbus, OH had 4 dinosaur one samples carbon dated at 20,000 years old. The samples were not identified as dinosaur in advance. (Noah to Abram the Turbulent Years by Erich von Fange, p. 36). 12. A geologist at the Berkeley Geochronology Center, Carl Swisher uses the most advanced techniques to date human fossils. Last spring he was re-evaluating Homo erectus skulls found in Java in the 1930s by testing the sediment found with them. A hominid species assumed to be an ancestor of Homo sapiens; erectus was thought to have vanished some 250,000 years ago. But even though he used two different dating methods, Swisher kept making the same startling find: the bones were 53,000 years old at most and possibly no more than 27,000 years (the difference between these two years is a 96% error rate) – a stretch of time contemporaneous with modern humans. (Leslie Kaufman, Did a Third Human Species Live Among Us? Newsweek, December 23, 1996, p. 52). Things to consider about carbon 14 dating:1. Wild dates are obtained. 2. Dates that don’t fit evolution theory are rejected and not published. “Correct dates match the geologic column. 3. It is based on the assumptions that: A. The original content of the sample is known. B. The decay rate never changes. C. The sample has not been contaminated. In carbon dating, when samples of a known age are test, Radioisotope Dating doesn’t work. When samples are of an unknown age, Radioisotope Dating is assumed to work. This doesn’t make sense.“Ever since William Smith at the beginning of the 19th century, fossils have been and still are the best and most accurate method of dating and correlating the rocks in which they occur. Apart from very ‘modern’ examples, which are really archaeology, I can think of no cases of radioactive decay being used to date fossils.” (Derek V. Ager, Fossil Frustrations, New Scientist, vol. 100, November 10, 1983, p. 425).“Radiometric dating would not have been feasible if the geologic column had not been erected first.” (J.E. O’Rourke, Pragmatism versus Materialism in Stratigraphy, American Journal of Science, vol. 276, January 1976, p. 54).“In the last two years an absolute date has been obtained for the Ngandong beds, above the Trinil beds, and it has the very interesting value of 300,000 years plus or minus 300,000 years (so they don’t really know). (J.B. Birdsell, Human Evolution, Rand McNally, 1975, p. 295).Moon rocks brought back in 1969, were given to many different laboratories to be dated. One rock (specimen 10017) was divided into 6 pieces and dated many times. The ages ranged from 2.5 billion to 4.6 billion years. This is a 90%error rate, from the same rock.James P. Dawson, Chief of Engineering and Operations for the Lunar and Earth Science Division at the Manned Spacecraft Center NASA in Houston. He worked on lunar samples including the Genesis rock. He said they found ages from 10,000 years to several billion years in the same rock.Potassium-Argon datingotassium-Argon dating can supposedly date older rocks and fossils than carbon 14 because it has a longer half-life of 1.3 billion years. The potassium decays to argon and the half-life was determined by measuring the number of particles that decayed in a 3 or 4 day period, then extrapolating for the time it would take for half the sample to decay. This doesn’t seem to be a very accurate way to measure half-life, especially if you are talking about a billion years.Scientists believe that lava, also known as basalt, has no argon in it when it is ejected from a volcano. After coming out, the potassium starts to decay to argon. Because it starts without argon, the basalt is assumed to be the perfect stuff to date.Potassium-Argon is not accurate at all. Here are some examples of the dating of volcanic lava:1. Basalt from Mt. Etna, Sicily from an eruption in 122 BC gave an age of 250,000 years old, when we know it is less than 2,000 years old (G.B. Dalyrmple, 1969 40Ar/36Ar analysis of historic lava flows. Earth and Planetary Science Letters, 6-47 55). 2. Lava from the 1801 Hawaiian volcano eruption gave a date of 1.6 million years old. (G.B. Dalyrmple, 1969 40Ar/36Ar analysis of historic lava flows. Earth and Planetary Science Letters, 6-47 55). It was only 200 years old. 3. Basalt from Mt. Kilauea Iki, Hawaii (erupted in 1959) gave an age of 8,500,000. (Impact #307 Jan. 1999). 4. Basalt from Mt. Etna, Sicily (erupted in 1964) gave a date of 700,000 years old. (Impact #307 Jan. 1999). 5. Basalt from Mt. Etna, Sicily (erupted in 1972) gave an age of 350,000 years old. (Impact #307 Jan. 1999). 6. New Lava dome growing inside the crater of Mt. St. Helens since the 1980 eruption was dated at 350,000 to 2.8 million years old (S.A. Austia, 1996. Excess Argon Within Mineral Concentrates from the New Dacite Lava Dome at Mount St. Helens Volcano, CIN Tech Journal 10(3), pp. 335-343). As we can see, carbon 14 and potassium-argon dating are not accurate, and cannot determine the age of anything, because they are based on false assumptions"There are MANY creation scientists with equal credentials who debunk the dating methods of God-hating or agnostic "scientists." I have the incomplete list if you would like it!As for Genesis 2:17--it does NOT kill a literal day understanding. Clearly God is speaking directly to literal Adam about something He was not to do. Did not Adam eat of that forbidden tree at a particular point in time? On a particular day in time? Certainly, the word day is used in the sense of an expanse of time or eras (e.g. "in our father's day"). But when it is set in the context of mornings and evenings and given ordinal numbers to define it, it is clearly a 24-hour day! Clearly, the 24-hour days of Genesis 1 are defined by the parameters of the other time indicators--mornings and evenings and the seasons and years. What are mornings and evenings if Genesis 1 deals with great ages? How are seasons determined without literal 24-hour days? How long would a season last in a day-age theory? What about years--what do they mean apart from a 24-hour day? God created the world and He created the time parameters of it--days are days, mornings are mornings, evenings are evenings, seasons are seasons and years are years. Will you redefine these words as well? What do "evening and morning" mean? What does "season" mean? What does "years" mean. If you redefine one (day) than you must redefine the others?I have not even gotten into the difficulty of plants continuing to live during an extemded age of "evening" and darkness or an age of "morning" and total and uninterrupted light! What about years and years and years of winter which would result from your long ages comprising a "day?" The same is true of summer and spring and fall. All of life depends upon their regularity and the cycles of the moon. In light of this, you are very correct in stating that "if you don't understand the beginning, you won't understand the end." But who is misunderstanding the beginning? Do you need to unlearn some things?JesusReigns

 

[Christina]

(jodycour;12174)
Kriss,I believe you are partially right.When God said that Lucifer was trafficking, I believe he was talking about the pre-Adamic age that he was decieving!In Luke Jesus did'nt say that He saw him fall physically, but his spirit falling. Lucifer is a Spiritual being that will have to take on the form of man when he enters the Anti-Christ.
I agree with your statement for the most part I disagree on Luke seeing him for we can not see spirit and Sense Satans spirit has always been at work what would be the point of making this statement in that form?At this time?Satan did rebell in the pre-Adamic age, in the garden and Satan is still rebellining I also agree he will take the form man when he enters as Antichrist