The Rapture Cover-up

[Timtofly]

Can you please post the scripture where JESUS said (any of the following):
a.) I will rapture my Elect/Bride/Church BEFORE the "Abomination of Desolation spoken by Daniel the Prophet"
b.) I will not permit My chosen/elect/saints/Bride/Church to suffer tribulation unto death.
c.) I will rapture my Bride/Saints/Elect/Church BEFORE the 'Day of Jacob's Trouble'.
d.) I have separated Jew from Gentile in the New Covenant
e.) My Saints/Elect/Redeemed Bride/Church will not see or face or suffer from the Antichrist

Jesus never mentioned the rapture, Paul did. Why are you asking leading questions that point no where?

Where did Jesus state otherwise? The rapture and Second Coming are after the great tribulation of the last 1994 years. Not after Jacob's trouble.

Jesus is on the earth with His angels tossing the majority of Jacob alive into the LOF, while only a remnant are redeemed. I would call that the worse trouble for Jacob ever, when God as their King is directly condemning millions of those from Jacob. That is what Matthew 13 and Matthew 25 explicitly teach. How can Jesus be on the earth without the Second Coming? The church is not on the earth while Jesus and the angels are.

 

[David in NJ]

Jesus never mentioned the rapture, Paul did. Why are you asking leading questions that point no where?

Where did Jesus state otherwise? The rapture and Second Coming are after the great tribulation of the last 1994 years. Not after Jacob's trouble.

Jesus is on the earth with His angels tossing the majority of Jacob alive into the LOF, while only a remnant are redeemed. I would call that the worse trouble for Jacob ever, when God as their King is directly condemning millions of those from Jacob. That is what Matthew 13 and Matthew 25 explicitly teach. How can Jesus be on the earth without the Second Coming? The church is not on the earth while Jesus and the angels are.

Jacobs Trouble is described in the Book of Zechariah chapter 14

1Behold, the day of the Lord is coming,
And your [a]spoil will be divided in your midst.
2For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
The city shall be taken,
The houses rifled,
And the women ravished.
Half of the city shall go into captivity,
But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3Then the Lord will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.
4And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Making a very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.
5Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
Yes, you shall flee
As you fled from the earthquake
In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.
Thus the Lord my God will come,
And all the saints with [c]You.

 

[Timtofly]

How can it represent Israel when they Do Not 'know' their MESSIAH and are not "known" by Him?

John 17:3 - Now this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent.

BEFORE you share your answer, we both know that "GOD knows all things and nothing is hidden from His sight."

SHALOM

How can they know their King until they see Him in person? I pointed out the wise ones had accepted the Messiah and are part of the church. Romans 11:26-28

"And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. As concerning the gospel, they are enemies."

They are enemies of God. Only a third will be redeemed and have their sins taken away. However some are redeemed by grace through faith. They are raptured.

The claim has been made that no one knows how many of Jacob are even on the earth. How will we know until the rapture happens if 50% are part of the fulness of the Gentiles or not. No one is supposed to make that distinction. But all of Israel left on the earth after the rapture will be divided and only a third will be changed to have their sins taken away.

That is why the church is removed prior to Jacob's trouble. Of course they will not know their King until it is too late for two thirds of them. I am not even claiming half of Jacob will be raptured, but would you all be mad at God, if God redeemed half of them?

 

[Timtofly]

BINGO

And He said to them, 24“Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25When once the Master of the house has risen up and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open for us,’ and He will answer and say to you, ‘I do not know you, where you are from,’ 26then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets.’ 27But He will say, ‘I tell you I do not know you, where you are from. Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity.’

So you agree that after the Second Coming, Jesus will be on the earth working directly with His people, Israel, after the church has been removed. That is pre-trib, before Jacob's trouble. It will not be by grace through faith. They will be given no choice. Either Jesus chooses and redeems them or casts them alive into the LOF. The Day of the Lord cannot start until Jesus cleans house and in person.

Forget the first century regulations. This is about the Second Coming, not the church. The church has to go, or just be in the way.

That is why Matthew 25 is not about the church. Those who claim to be of Christ, who are not, do not get a second chance. Israel as enemies of the Gospel gets a second chance, not to be the church, but to inherit the earth. Yes many of Jacob are part of the church, but after 2 millenia of no distinction, how can we tell the difference until the dust settles at the Second Coming?

 

[Timtofly]

SIMPLE - just follow the detailed account of the physical death of Lazarus = John 11:1-14

Now a certain man was sick, Lazarus of Bethany, the town of Mary and her sister Martha. 2It was that Mary who anointed the Lord with fragrant oil and wiped His feet with her hair, whose brother Lazarus was sick. 3Therefore the sisters sent to Him, saying, “Lord, behold, he whom You love is sick.”

4When Jesus heard that, He said, “This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God may be glorified through it.”

5Now Jesus loved Martha and her sister and Lazarus. 6So, when He heard that he was sick, He stayed two more days in the place where He was. 7Then after this He said to the disciples, “Let us go to Judea again.”

8The disciples said to Him, “Rabbi, lately the Jews sought to stone You, and are You going there again?”

9Jesus answered, “Are there not twelve hours in the day? If anyone walks in the day, he does not stumble, because he sees the light of this world. 10But if one walks in the night, he stumbles, because the light is not in him.” 11These things He said, and after that He said to them, “Our friend Lazarus sleeps, but I go that I may wake him up.”

12Then His disciples said, “Lord, if he sleeps he will get well.”
13However, Jesus spoke of his death, but they thought that He was speaking about taking rest in sleep.
14Then Jesus said to them plainly, “Lazarus is dead.
15And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, that you may believe. Nevertheless let us go to him.”

Lazarus was already dead when he said that. Not that Lazarus was going to die again, ever.

Your paraphrase says "he may die". That does not imply you are referring to Lazarus. Lazarus was already dead there was no "may" about it. Was Jesus implying Lazarus may die, even though he had already been dead for 4 days? Or was Jesus speaking about all humanity in general? Seems Jesus was saying that no one could ever die again physically, if they believe in Jesus.

So, if you say "may die"; as I pointed out, "though he were dead" is grammatically correct, not "though he may die". One could also say though he were dead in a future sense as well, or an ongoing spiritual sense. But the point Jesus was making, is that those spiritually dead, could believe in Christ, and would never die again, physically nor spiritually. Yes, the soul would leave death behind, and put on life just as Paul described on the day of redemption, when the soul left this physical body. The day of redemption for each individual is on an individual level, not corporate.

I agree. No one is physically dead in Paradise. They have left Adam's dead corruptible flesh, and entered God's permanent incorruptible physical body. They are not present on earth, for sure. But they are not physically dead either.

And to prove that, Lazarus was raised up in a permanent incorruptible physical body. A few days later, he ascended into Paradise, with all the others physically resurrected from Abraham's bosom. No one in Christ would taste death, nor see physical death after the Cross. That does not imply they live forever in this body of death. It explicitly shows that the soul leaves death behind, when the soul leaves this body.

 

[Timtofly]

Jacobs Trouble is described in the Book of Zechariah chapter 14

1Behold, the day of the Lord is coming,
And your [a]spoil will be divided in your midst.
2For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
The city shall be taken,
The houses rifled,
And the women ravished.
Half of the city shall go into captivity,
But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3Then the Lord will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.
4And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Making a very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.
5Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
Yes, you shall flee
As you fled from the earthquake
In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.
Thus the Lord my God will come,
And all the saints with [c]You.

What did Jesus say about that: Matthew 10:28

"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

I am pretty sure Jesus on earth will be way worse than human troubles for Jacob.

That is when Jesus comes, though, to the Mount of Olives in the 6th Seal prior to the 7th Seal and any Trumpet.

Revelation 19 is to mount Megiddo and the valley of decision. No one will be left but those with the mark.

Jesus is on the earth with His angels, for the final harvest, over 42 months prior to Revelation 19.

Also Jeremiah 30. It does not mean the trouble prior to the Second Coming, which Jacob will be delivered out of. It is the baptism of fire and house cleaning John the Baptist was referring to: Matthew 3:11-12

"I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."

Yes, Jacob will be delivered from humans who want him dead. But that is not going to compare with the act of Jesus throughly purging His Kingdom.

 

[David in NJ]

How can they know their King until they see Him in person? I pointed out the wise ones had accepted the Messiah and are part of the church. Romans 11:26-28

"And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. As concerning the gospel, they are enemies."

They are enemies of God. Only a third will be redeemed and have their sins taken away. However some are redeemed by grace through faith. They are raptured.

The claim has been made that no one knows how many of Jacob are even on the earth. How will we know until the rapture happens if 50% are part of the fulness of the Gentiles or not. No one is supposed to make that distinction. But all of Israel left on the earth after the rapture will be divided and only a third will be changed to have their sins taken away.

That is why the church is removed prior to Jacob's trouble. Of course they will not know their King until it is too late for two thirds of them. I am not even claiming half of Jacob will be raptured, but would you all be mad at God, if God redeemed half of them?

They are enemies of God. Only a third will be redeemed and have their sins taken away. However some are redeemed by grace through faith. They are raptured.

100%

 

[WPM]

Jacobs Trouble is described in the Book of Zechariah chapter 14

A careful and unbiased analyze of the biblical and contextual evidence relating to the book of Jeremiah will prove that Jacob’s trouble was an historic occurrence that has been long fulfilled in the Babylonian captivity. It describes a time when Jeremiah lived and when he was rebuking the rebellion of Israel that caused him to be driven from their homeland.

Jacob's trouble is shown to relate to Babylonian captivity which occurred back in Nebuchadrezzar’s day. Let us let the Bible speak for itself.

Jeremiah 1:3 “It came also in the days of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah king of Judah, unto the end of the eleventh year of Zedekiah the son of Josiah king of Judah, unto the carrying away of Jerusalem captive in the fifth month.”

Jeremiah 2:27-28: “they have turned their back unto me, and not their face: but in the time of their trouble they will say, Arise, and save us. But where are thy gods that thou hast made thee? let them arise, if they can save thee in the time of thy trouble: for according to the number of thy cities are thy gods, O Judah.”

Jeremiah 8:14-15: “assemble yourselves, and let us enter into the defenced cities, and let us be silent there: for the LORD our God hath put us to silence, and given us water of gall to drink, because we have sinned against the LORD. We looked for peace, but no good came; and for a time of health, and behold trouble! "

Jeremiah 11:10-12: “They are turned back to the iniquities of their forefathers, which refused to hear my words; and they went after other gods to serve them: the house of Israel and the house of Judah have broken my covenant which I made with their fathers. Therefore thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will bring evil upon them, which they shall not be able to escape; and though they shall cry unto me, I will not hearken unto them. Then shall the cities of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem go, and cry unto the gods unto whom they offer incense: but they shall not save them at all in the time of their trouble.”

Jeremiah 14:7: “O LORD, though our iniquities testify against us, do thou it for thy name's sake: for our backslidings are many; we have sinned against thee. O the hope of Israel, the saviour thereof in time of trouble.”

Jeremiah 15:2: “And it shall come to pass, if they say unto thee, Whither shall we go forth? then thou shalt tell them, Thus saith the LORD; Such as are for death, to death; and such as are for the sword, to the sword; and such as are for the famine, to the famine; and such as are for the captivity, to the captivity.”

Jeremiah 20:4: “For thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will make thee a terror to thyself, and to all thy friends: and they shall fall by the sword of their enemies, and thine eyes shall behold it: and I will give all Judah into the hand of the king of Babylon, and he shall carry them captive into Babylon, and shall slay them with the sword.”

Jeremiah 25:9-11: “Behold, I will send and take all the families of the north, saith the LORD, and Nebuchadrezzar the king of Babylon, my servant, and will bring them against this land, and against the inhabitants thereof, and against all these nations round about, and will utterly destroy them, and make them an astonishment, and an hissing, and perpetual desolations. Moreover I will take from them the voice of mirth, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride, the sound of the millstones, and the light of the candle. And this whole land shall be a desolation, and an astonishment; and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years.”

Jeremiah 29:1: “Now these are the words of the letter that Jeremiah the prophet sent from Jerusalem unto the residue of the elders which were carried away captives, and to the priests, and to the prophets, and to all the people whom Nebuchadnezzar had carried away captive from Jerusalem to Babylon."

Jeremiah 30:3-7: “For, lo, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, saith the LORD: and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it. And these are the words that the LORD spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah. For thus saith the LORD; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace. Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness? Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble, but he shall be saved out of it. "

Jeremiah 30:10-11: “Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the LORD; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid. For I am with thee, saith the LORD, to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet will I not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished.”

This was speaking of Babylon at the time. It reveals a consistent scriptural truth, the vessels God uses to chasten His people, He then casts away. It was only the last few books that were post-exile. As promised, Israel after chastisement was delivered. They were only one of many nations over the centuries. Today in this New Testament era, those who oppose God's only nation the Church face the same outcome.

Jeremiah 31:23: “Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; As yet they shall use this speech in the land of Judah and in the cities thereof, when I shall bring again their captivity; The LORD bless thee, O habitation of justice, and mountain of holiness.”

Jeremiah 31:23: “Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; As yet they shall use this speech in the land of Judah and in the cities thereof, when I shall bring again their captivity; The LORD bless thee, O habitation of justice, and mountain of holiness.”

Jeremiah 32:44: “Men shall buy fields for money, and subscribe evidences, and seal them, and take witnesses in the land of Benjamin, and in the places about Jerusalem, and in the cities of Judah, and in the cities of the mountains, and in the cities of the valley, and in the cities of the south: for I will cause their captivity to return, saith the LORD.”

Jeremiah 51:1: “Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I will raise up against Babylon, and against them that dwell in the midst of them that rise up against me, a destroying wind; And will send unto Babylon fanners, that shall fan her, and shall empty her land: for in the day of trouble they shall be against her round about. Against him that bendeth let the archer bend his bow, and against him that lifteth himself up in his brigandine: and spare ye not her young men; destroy ye utterly all her host. Thus the slain shall fall in the land of the Chaldeans, and they that are thrust through in her streets. For Israel hath not been forsaken, nor Judah of his God, of the LORD of hosts; though their land was filled with sin against the Holy One of Israel. Flee out of the midst of Babylon, and deliver every man his soul: be not cut off in her iniquity; for this is the time of the LORD's vengeance; he will render unto her a recompence.”

If this was a legal case it would be a closed case. I believe it is absolutely water-tight. The lawyer would simply say: “I rest my case.” I don’t believe there is any question that an objective analyze of this book would come to any other conclusion than the fact that Jeremiah is describing Israel’s captivity in Babylon in his day. There is no mention (or context) of end-times in the prophet’s writings on this matter. Quite the opposite.

 

[David in NJ]

A careful and unbiased analyze of the biblical and contextual evidence relating to the book of Jeremiah will prove that Jacob’s trouble was an historic occurrence that has been long fulfilled in the Babylonian captivity. It describes a time when Jeremiah lived and when he was rebuking the rebellion of Israel that caused him to be driven from their homeland.

Jacob's trouble is shown to relate to Babylonian captivity which occurred back in Nebuchadrezzar’s day. Let us let the Bible speak for itself.

Jeremiah 1:3 “It came also in the days of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah king of Judah, unto the end of the eleventh year of Zedekiah the son of Josiah king of Judah, unto the carrying away of Jerusalem captive in the fifth month.”

Jeremiah 2:27-28: “they have turned their back unto me, and not their face: but in the time of their trouble they will say, Arise, and save us. But where are thy gods that thou hast made thee? let them arise, if they can save thee in the time of thy trouble: for according to the number of thy cities are thy gods, O Judah.”

Jeremiah 8:14-15: “assemble yourselves, and let us enter into the defenced cities, and let us be silent there: for the LORD our God hath put us to silence, and given us water of gall to drink, because we have sinned against the LORD. We looked for peace, but no good came; and for a time of health, and behold trouble! "

Jeremiah 11:10-12: “They are turned back to the iniquities of their forefathers, which refused to hear my words; and they went after other gods to serve them: the house of Israel and the house of Judah have broken my covenant which I made with their fathers. Therefore thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will bring evil upon them, which they shall not be able to escape; and though they shall cry unto me, I will not hearken unto them. Then shall the cities of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem go, and cry unto the gods unto whom they offer incense: but they shall not save them at all in the time of their trouble.”

Jeremiah 14:7: “O LORD, though our iniquities testify against us, do thou it for thy name's sake: for our backslidings are many; we have sinned against thee. O the hope of Israel, the saviour thereof in time of trouble.”

Jeremiah 15:2: “And it shall come to pass, if they say unto thee, Whither shall we go forth? then thou shalt tell them, Thus saith the LORD; Such as are for death, to death; and such as are for the sword, to the sword; and such as are for the famine, to the famine; and such as are for the captivity, to the captivity.”

Jeremiah 20:4: “For thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will make thee a terror to thyself, and to all thy friends: and they shall fall by the sword of their enemies, and thine eyes shall behold it: and I will give all Judah into the hand of the king of Babylon, and he shall carry them captive into Babylon, and shall slay them with the sword.”

Jeremiah 25:9-11: “Behold, I will send and take all the families of the north, saith the LORD, and Nebuchadrezzar the king of Babylon, my servant, and will bring them against this land, and against the inhabitants thereof, and against all these nations round about, and will utterly destroy them, and make them an astonishment, and an hissing, and perpetual desolations. Moreover I will take from them the voice of mirth, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride, the sound of the millstones, and the light of the candle. And this whole land shall be a desolation, and an astonishment; and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years.”

Jeremiah 29:1: “Now these are the words of the letter that Jeremiah the prophet sent from Jerusalem unto the residue of the elders which were carried away captives, and to the priests, and to the prophets, and to all the people whom Nebuchadnezzar had carried away captive from Jerusalem to Babylon."

Jeremiah 30:3-7: “For, lo, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, saith the LORD: and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it. And these are the words that the LORD spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah. For thus saith the LORD; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace. Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness? Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble, but he shall be saved out of it. "

Jeremiah 30:10-11: “Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the LORD; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid. For I am with thee, saith the LORD, to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet will I not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished.”

This was speaking of Babylon at the time. It reveals a consistent scriptural truth, the vessels God uses to chasten His people, He then casts away. It was only the last few books that were post-exile. As promised, Israel after chastisement was delivered. They were only one of many nations over the centuries. Today in this New Testament era, those who oppose God's only nation the Church face the same outcome.

Jeremiah 31:23: “Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; As yet they shall use this speech in the land of Judah and in the cities thereof, when I shall bring again their captivity; The LORD bless thee, O habitation of justice, and mountain of holiness.”

Jeremiah 31:23: “Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; As yet they shall use this speech in the land of Judah and in the cities thereof, when I shall bring again their captivity; The LORD bless thee, O habitation of justice, and mountain of holiness.”

Jeremiah 32:44: “Men shall buy fields for money, and subscribe evidences, and seal them, and take witnesses in the land of Benjamin, and in the places about Jerusalem, and in the cities of Judah, and in the cities of the mountains, and in the cities of the valley, and in the cities of the south: for I will cause their captivity to return, saith the LORD.”

Jeremiah 51:1: “Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I will raise up against Babylon, and against them that dwell in the midst of them that rise up against me, a destroying wind; And will send unto Babylon fanners, that shall fan her, and shall empty her land: for in the day of trouble they shall be against her round about. Against him that bendeth let the archer bend his bow, and against him that lifteth himself up in his brigandine: and spare ye not her young men; destroy ye utterly all her host. Thus the slain shall fall in the land of the Chaldeans, and they that are thrust through in her streets. For Israel hath not been forsaken, nor Judah of his God, of the LORD of hosts; though their land was filled with sin against the Holy One of Israel. Flee out of the midst of Babylon, and deliver every man his soul: be not cut off in her iniquity; for this is the time of the LORD's vengeance; he will render unto her a recompence.”

If this was a legal case it would be a closed case. I believe it is absolutely water-tight. The lawyer would simply say: “I rest my case.” I don’t believe there is any question that an objective analyze of this book would come to any other conclusion than the fact that Jeremiah is describing Israel’s captivity in Babylon in his day. There is no mention (or context) of end-times in the prophet’s writings on this matter. Quite the opposite.

If this was a legal case it would be a closed case.

Not so fast, i accept the legal challenge according to the WORD which is our Final SAY.
AGREE?

I believe it is absolutely water-tight.

Well, you have a case that may be "water-tight" but not "air(spirit) TIGHT"

And do not forget this:
"Greet all the brethren with a holy kiss"

 

[IndianaRob]

A careful and unbiased analyze of the biblical and contextual evidence relating to the book of Jeremiah will prove that Jacob’s trouble was an historic occurrence that has been long fulfilled in the Babylonian captivity. It describes a time when Jeremiah lived and when he was rebuking the rebellion of Israel that caused him to be driven from their homeland.

Jacob's trouble is shown to relate to Babylonian captivity which occurred back in Nebuchadrezzar’s day. Let us let the Bible speak for itself.

Jeremiah 1:3 “It came also in the days of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah king of Judah, unto the end of the eleventh year of Zedekiah the son of Josiah king of Judah, unto the carrying away of Jerusalem captive in the fifth month.”

Jeremiah 2:27-28: “they have turned their back unto me, and not their face: but in the time of their trouble they will say, Arise, and save us. But where are thy gods that thou hast made thee? let them arise, if they can save thee in the time of thy trouble: for according to the number of thy cities are thy gods, O Judah.”

Jeremiah 8:14-15: “assemble yourselves, and let us enter into the defenced cities, and let us be silent there: for the LORD our God hath put us to silence, and given us water of gall to drink, because we have sinned against the LORD. We looked for peace, but no good came; and for a time of health, and behold trouble! "

Jeremiah 11:10-12: “They are turned back to the iniquities of their forefathers, which refused to hear my words; and they went after other gods to serve them: the house of Israel and the house of Judah have broken my covenant which I made with their fathers. Therefore thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will bring evil upon them, which they shall not be able to escape; and though they shall cry unto me, I will not hearken unto them. Then shall the cities of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem go, and cry unto the gods unto whom they offer incense: but they shall not save them at all in the time of their trouble.”

Jeremiah 14:7: “O LORD, though our iniquities testify against us, do thou it for thy name's sake: for our backslidings are many; we have sinned against thee. O the hope of Israel, the saviour thereof in time of trouble.”

Jeremiah 15:2: “And it shall come to pass, if they say unto thee, Whither shall we go forth? then thou shalt tell them, Thus saith the LORD; Such as are for death, to death; and such as are for the sword, to the sword; and such as are for the famine, to the famine; and such as are for the captivity, to the captivity.”

Jeremiah 20:4: “For thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will make thee a terror to thyself, and to all thy friends: and they shall fall by the sword of their enemies, and thine eyes shall behold it: and I will give all Judah into the hand of the king of Babylon, and he shall carry them captive into Babylon, and shall slay them with the sword.”

Jeremiah 25:9-11: “Behold, I will send and take all the families of the north, saith the LORD, and Nebuchadrezzar the king of Babylon, my servant, and will bring them against this land, and against the inhabitants thereof, and against all these nations round about, and will utterly destroy them, and make them an astonishment, and an hissing, and perpetual desolations. Moreover I will take from them the voice of mirth, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride, the sound of the millstones, and the light of the candle. And this whole land shall be a desolation, and an astonishment; and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years.”

Jeremiah 29:1: “Now these are the words of the letter that Jeremiah the prophet sent from Jerusalem unto the residue of the elders which were carried away captives, and to the priests, and to the prophets, and to all the people whom Nebuchadnezzar had carried away captive from Jerusalem to Babylon."

Jeremiah 30:3-7: “For, lo, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, saith the LORD: and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it. And these are the words that the LORD spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah. For thus saith the LORD; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace. Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness? Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble, but he shall be saved out of it. "

Jeremiah 30:10-11: “Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the LORD; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid. For I am with thee, saith the LORD, to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet will I not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished.”

This was speaking of Babylon at the time. It reveals a consistent scriptural truth, the vessels God uses to chasten His people, He then casts away. It was only the last few books that were post-exile. As promised, Israel after chastisement was delivered. They were only one of many nations over the centuries. Today in this New Testament era, those who oppose God's only nation the Church face the same outcome.

Jeremiah 31:23: “Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; As yet they shall use this speech in the land of Judah and in the cities thereof, when I shall bring again their captivity; The LORD bless thee, O habitation of justice, and mountain of holiness.”

Jeremiah 31:23: “Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; As yet they shall use this speech in the land of Judah and in the cities thereof, when I shall bring again their captivity; The LORD bless thee, O habitation of justice, and mountain of holiness.”

Jeremiah 32:44: “Men shall buy fields for money, and subscribe evidences, and seal them, and take witnesses in the land of Benjamin, and in the places about Jerusalem, and in the cities of Judah, and in the cities of the mountains, and in the cities of the valley, and in the cities of the south: for I will cause their captivity to return, saith the LORD.”

Jeremiah 51:1: “Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I will raise up against Babylon, and against them that dwell in the midst of them that rise up against me, a destroying wind; And will send unto Babylon fanners, that shall fan her, and shall empty her land: for in the day of trouble they shall be against her round about. Against him that bendeth let the archer bend his bow, and against him that lifteth himself up in his brigandine: and spare ye not her young men; destroy ye utterly all her host. Thus the slain shall fall in the land of the Chaldeans, and they that are thrust through in her streets. For Israel hath not been forsaken, nor Judah of his God, of the LORD of hosts; though their land was filled with sin against the Holy One of Israel. Flee out of the midst of Babylon, and deliver every man his soul: be not cut off in her iniquity; for this is the time of the LORD's vengeance; he will render unto her a recompence.”

If this was a legal case it would be a closed case. I believe it is absolutely water-tight. The lawyer would simply say: “I rest my case.” I don’t believe there is any question that an objective analyze of this book would come to any other conclusion than the fact that Jeremiah is describing Israel’s captivity in Babylon in his day. There is no mention (or context) of end-times in the prophet’s writings on this matter. Quite the opposite.

You forgot to explain how David their king was raised up.

Jer 30:9 But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.

 

[WPM]

You forgot to explain how David their king was raised up.

Jer 30:9 But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.

This does not negate anything i presented.

 

[IndianaRob]

This does not negate anything i presented.

It negates everything you presented.

David their king was Old Testament language for Christ their king. There’s a finite time in which it can be said that God raised up Jesus as their king.

 

[amigo de christo]

YEP - EXACTLY the SAME as i said!

the LORD, the Apostle Peter and the Apostle Paul AGREE that the Jewish nation on earth is Unredeemed = at present time and are in BONDAGE to SIN without any means of forgiveness under the law.

Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? 22For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24which things are symbolic. For these are [g]the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar— 25for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children— 26but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27For it is written:

“Rejoice, O barren,
You who do not bear!
Break forth and shout,
You who are not in labor!
For the desolate has many more children
Than she who has a husband.”
28Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise. 29But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now. 30Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.” 31So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free.

ONLY Jews & Gentiles who have been Redeemed by the Blood of Adonai YAHshua HaMashiach are SAVED and included in the Household of God.

I was about to say the same thing my friend . When mark quoated you , HE actually CONFIRMED what you SAID
and he had no IDEA HE DID . many now follow men my friend .
But YOU IS RIGHT . THERE IS BUT ONE NATION OF GOD NOW . IT consists of believing jews and gentiles .
BELIEVING as in THEY BELIEVE JESUS IS THE CHRIST . there is no other hope . men are fleecing these flocks david
and they have been for decades and decades and its only gonna get worse too .
THERE IS ONLY ONE TRUE JERUSALEM , ONE TRUE ISRAEL , ONE TRUE TEMPLE . JESUS SITS KING OVER IT
and anything whether jew or gentile that rejects HIM , GOTS NO ENTRANCE IN but rather wailing at their end .
I mean wailing too . ITS TIME WE PREACH JESUS THE CHRIST and offer up NO OTHER HOPE .
THE ISRAEL OF GOD HAS ITS JERUSALEM OF GOD and ITS TEMPLE OF GOD wherein GOD and the LAMB ARE THE TEMPLE
AND each lil stone is a believer added into it by FAITH IN JESUS THE CHRIST . MARCH ON my freind . MARCH ON .

 

[amigo de christo]

i LOVE Romans, especially chapters 9-11

Chapter 11 CONFIRMS the Prophecy of our Lord Jesus Christ which HE gave to the ethnic nation Israel = Matt 23:37-39

For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”

When paul wrote that , who was he writing it too . the church . did the church consist of jews only , gentiles only , OR BOTH .
BOTH beleiving jew and gentile were in that church .
Was paul gentile born or jewish born . JEWISH BORN .
Did he ever offer up some other name or hope to either the jew or gentile . NO SIR .
Did john who was jewish born ever offer up some other hope . NO SIR .
DID they all not also say WHETHER JEW OR GENTILE if one believes NOT ON JESUS THE CHRIST , THEY GONNA BE DAMNED .
YES SIR THEY DID .
Can a jew be an anti christ . YES HE CAN
can a gentile be an anti christ YES HECAN .
The flesh will proft no man . BUT JESUS , HE WILL SURELY PROFIT A MAN . this gringo shall offer up
ONLY ONE NAME , ONE SALVATION , ONE way TO BE RECONCILED TO GOD for both JEW AND GENTILE .
HIS NAME BE JESUS THE CHRIST . OH i am a stickler to that NAME and i shall offer up NO OTHER VAIN FALSE HOPE .
MARCH ON MY FRIEND . THERE is but ONE NAME WE CAN PREACH , ITS JESUS THE CHRIST .

 

[David in NJ]

I was about to say the same thing my friend . When mark quoated you , HE actually CONFIRMED what you SAID
and he had no IDEA HE DID . many now follow men my friend .
But YOU IS RIGHT . THERE IS BUT ONE NATION OF GOD NOW . IT consists of believing jews and gentiles .
BELIEVING as in THEY BELIEVE JESUS IS THE CHRIST . there is no other hope . men are fleecing these flocks david
and they have been for decades and decades and its only gonna get worse too .
THERE IS ONLY ONE TRUE JERUSALEM , ONE TRUE ISRAEL , ONE TRUE TEMPLE . JESUS SITS KING OVER IT
and anything whether jew or gentile that rejects HIM , GOTS NO ENTRANCE IN but rather wailing at their end .
I mean wailing too . ITS TIME WE PREACH JESUS THE CHRIST and offer up NO OTHER HOPE .
THE ISRAEL OF GOD HAS ITS JERUSALEM OF GOD and ITS TEMPLE OF GOD wherein GOD and the LAMB ARE THE TEMPLE
AND each lil stone is a believer added into it by FAITH IN JESUS THE CHRIST . MARCH ON my freind . MARCH ON .

THERE IS ONLY ONE TRUE JERUSALEM , ONE TRUE ISRAEL , ONE TRUE TEMPLE . JESUS SITS KING OVER IT

SHOUT it from the rooftops my Brother

 

[amigo de christo]

SHOUT it from the rooftops my Brother

OH I WILL , by GRACE I WILL . no matter the cost to me my friend . the false all inclusive love is taking the numbers big time my friend
and it will get only worse in this world and within christendom .
It wont just be words that come against us either . David its gonna get real harsh in the days ahead .
THEY GONNA MERGE david . THEY GONNA ALL MERGE under what they beleive is GOD and is LOVE .
ONLY its not GOD OR HIS LOVE . and when i say they i mean the denominations , the RCC and the false religoins too .
THEY GOTS THEIR ONE WORLD RELIGOIN . they call it love and cliam its of GOD , BUT IT AINT david .
IT AINT .
IT will get worse and i mean way worse . Till words become action .
IN other words , David , true lambs are gonna bleed for JESUS and soon and even in the western societies .
IT CANNOT be stopped . The great hour has and is hitting its peak . The greatest hour of tribulation
to come against the church IS RISING UP even as we speak my friend . WE GONNA SEE IT .
we gonna have to face it . And he or she who endures to the end the same shall be saved .
ITS gonna get bad david .

 

[amigo de christo]

SHOUT it from the rooftops my Brother

WE gonna bellow it out my friend . Time is running out and a great delusion has come to merge the religoins to be as one
And all who reject the love of the truth , aka the real gospel of JESUS , gonna beleive it david .
THEY GONNA merge too under what they beleive is LOVE and is of GOD .
BUT i am telling us all , ITS NOT LOVE , NOT AGAPE LOVE and its NOT OF GOD . IT has come of the world and of darkness
and the dark one and his ministirs who have fleeced these flocks and lined their pockets full .
THEY SELLING OUT THE FLOCK david . they selling out the flocks .
But lambs are gonna do exploits my friend . WE is gonna warn , we is gonna remind
we is gonna POINT TO CHRIST alone and all sound bibilcal doctrine .
ITS a WAR friend . AND ITS TIME the people strap ALL ARMOUR ON TIGHT . its gonna be harsh david and soon .

 

[David in NJ]

OH I WILL , by GRACE I WILL . no matter the cost to me my friend . the false all inclusive love is taking the numbers big time my friend
and it will get only worse in this world and within christendom .
It wont just be words that come against us either . David its gonna get real harsh in the days ahead .
THEY GONNA MERGE david . THEY GONNA ALL MERGE under what they beleive is GOD and is LOVE .
ONLY its not GOD OR HIS LOVE . and when i say they i mean the denominations , the RCC and the false religoins too .
THEY GOTS THEIR ONE WORLD RELIGOIN . they call it love and cliam its of GOD , BUT IT AINT david .
IT AINT .
IT will get worse and i mean way worse . Till words become action .
IN other words , David , true lambs are gonna bleed for JESUS and soon and even in the western societies .
IT CANNOT be stopped . The great hour has and is hitting its peak . The greatest hour of tribulation
to come against the church IS RISING UP even as we speak my friend . WE GONNA SEE IT .
we gonna have to face it . And he or she who endures to the end the same shall be saved .
ITS gonna get bad david .

It is ALREADY taking place as we speak!!!

'They' began with hurling words of insult and slander against the true lambs who follow every word of the Chief Shepherd.

'They' are formulating 'policy' in order to deal with those who walk and speak in the Spirit as Elijah did.

'They' will pronounce judgment against us for we do not bow the knee unto men/religion/the world.

 

[amigo de christo]

SHOUT it from the rooftops my Brother

GOD will gather some lambs my friend in the days ahead .
As the world and the united religoins merge as one and shall unify against GOD and HIS CHRIST and the saints .
THE greatest hour of all out tribulation to come against the church , IS COMING and its rising up as we speak .
Lambs will just have to gather in tiny groups and do all to contend for the true faith .
THIS entire world is ripe for the peak hour of the mystery of inquity and that which is of anti christ
WHICH though it has been since the days of paul and john and others , its hitting its peak hour NOW .
and the delusion , oh tis here my friend . that which is of anti christ , oh its here my friend .
THEY GONNA MERGE as one under it too . every denomination , RCC , and the false religoins , they are already
coming more and more together . NO LONGER divided against GOD but NOW UNITING as ONE AGAISNT HIM , HIS CHRIST
and the saints . ITS an unholy very dark hour and its hitting its peak .
Only most they see this delusion as though its loving , its love and its of GOD . BUT ITS OF THE DEVIL my friend .
WE MUST PREACH JESUS CHRIST . there have always been times of tribulations and lambs have lost their lives
even for CHRIST . IT will hit its peak though . GOD was with them , HE WILL BE with us too .
No fear of man . just march on david . march on in the LORD .

 

[amigo de christo]

It is ALREADY taking place as we speak!!!

'They' began with hurling words of insult and slander against the true lambs who follow every word of the Chief Shepherd.

'They' are formulating 'policy' in order to deal with those who walk and speak in the Spirit as Elijah did.

'They' will pronounce judgment against us for we do not bow the knee unto men/religion/the world.

CORRECT my friend . IT IS ALREADY taking place and it will only get worse and their hatred agaisnt GOD
His CHRIST and his saints WILL ONLY INCREASE till the call for blood is made .
ITs words for now in western socities . our persecutions at most have been words
and maybe a few jailed here and there and cast out of society etc . But its gonna get worse .
CHRISTENDOM will lead the religoins into the darkest hour ever known to man . but true lambs will still do exploits .
But blood will be spilled , even in the UK , canda , america and western socities .
We have had a long time of relative peace . when i say relative peace i mean WE have not had to face
a massive persecution or eradiction . WE SOON WILL david and it will be done all in the name of what they think is LOVE and of GOD .
DECEPTOIN runs wild my friend .