The Pre-Trib Rapture

[Truth7t7]

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Before the thousand years even begins, there are thrones and judgment is given to those sitting on the thrones. Then we are introduced to a group of dead Christian martyrs who come back to life. Even the Amill scholar Barnes believes not only is there a judgment here but also states it is these dead martyrs that are being judged and there is only one judgment for them, eternal life!



John sees two groups of people/souls:

1. people sitting on thrones and judgment given to them
2. souls of the tribulation martyrs who instead of remaining dead are said to live with Christ

Claiming 1 and 2 are the same group doesn't make any sense. Those judging are not the second group mentioned. It can only be that second group of martyrs that were being judged and the judgment has to be a resurrection to life which we know is the reward for the dead in Christ.



We see the same event in Daniel:

Dan 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.


Here are multiple thrones and God the Father himself sitting there.


Dan 7:10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.


And here again judgment is mentioned and a large group standing before him. This must be the dead in Christ being judged to life because it cannot apply to the unsaved because the beast hasn't yet been slain:


Dan 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.


This beast of course is also seen in Rev 19 being destroyed at the return of Christ. What we then have been given is a judgment of a group before the beast is destroyed so that group must be the saved being judged to eternal life as we also see in Rev 20.

Dan 7:12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

And just like it is for the thousand years, some "beasts" (the wicked/unsaved/and satan himself) have their lives prolonged. Indeed during the thousand years satan and many unsaved gentiles of the world's nations will live through the thousand years.


Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Before the thousand years even begins, there are thrones and judgment is given to those sitting on the thrones. Then we are introduced to a group of dead Christian martyrs who come back to life. This is a judgment and resurrection of only the saved. The unsaved are judged at a later time and at a later resurrection: "the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished" so clearly AFTER the Millennium is when these are resurrected and judged.


Another example of the righteous being judged separately from the wicked:


Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Mat 25:35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Mat 25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
Mat 25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
Mat 25:38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
Mat 25:39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
Mat 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.


Here we again have judgment of the righteous first! No wicked are being judged with the righteous.


Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Mat 25:42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
Mat 25:43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
Mat 25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
Mat 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Christ does not address time in this but according to Rev 20, there is a period of time inbetween the judgment of the dead in Christ vs. the rest of the dead so we know there is time inbetween these two judgments. Even in human courts there is no such concept of judging someone a reward while judging someone to death. That happens at different times. The two don't belong in one court judgment.


1Pe 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

As you can see, the righteous are judged FIRST. Judgment starts with "us" as Peter confirms.

You have changed your tune, you previously stated the saved aren't judged, nice to see you have acknowledged the truth of 1 Corinthians 3:13

 

[ewq1938]

You have changed your tune, you previously stated the saved aren't judged

You have confused me for someone else. I have long known the saved are judged. What I posted is something I wrote and saved from many years ago.

 

[Timtofly]

That applies to the false teaching Jesus Christ returns to this earth and takes a literal throne in Jerusalem, this will be the Antichrist!

So your claim is that Jesus was not on earth in the first century. You point out it was just an antichrist imposter.

That is just what the Pharisees and Saducees taught. They did not accept God's Word either.

 

[Timtofly]

Here is the translation of what you're saying: I'm not able to provide the supposed misquote and post number because they don't exist.

He replied to a post I posted to another poster. Now you are interjectecting your opinion into a pointless conversation. But hey you and he are talking about a spiritual gene passed down from Abraham. I was not, so you two can keep discussing this point, and leave me out of it.

 

[Timtofly]

I think I'm on ewq1938's ignore, but the Greek clearly proves him wrong.

Strong's Greek: 3625. οἰκουμένη (oikoumené) -- the inhabited earth (biblehub.com)

"c. the whole inhabited earth, the world... the inhabitants of the earth, men: Acts 17:6, 31"

Obviously not people in sheol. That is where you and Spiritual Jew are wrong. The verse is about those alive on earth with those dead spiritual genes.

You all are great at misquotes. You add the phrase "and judge those resurrected from sheol."

Pretty sure the inhabited world does not include sheol in the Greek definition.

Do they have physical genes in sheol?


At one point in time, during my life, people pointed out that every time something bad happened to people it was God judging humanity. Now that folks don't read their Bibles any more, you don't hear that as much. That is what that verse is describing, except people back in the day were over using that thought and attributing every evil to God's judgment. But saying this involves a resurrection is just as much a misinterpretation as calling all "bad things" God's judgment on those living on the earth.

"And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead."

This is the point where the King Jesus returns. Jesus left as the Christ, the Messiah "cut off". Judgment did not happen in the first century. But when that thief in the night, Second Coming happens, those on earth will know it is the King Jesus, and the GT is that judgment up front and in person. It does not include a resurrection from sheol. It is Jesus putting living humans into Death or the LOF.

Rejecting the Gospel is what the text implies will get you God's wrath and death. Paul is calling for repentance. Nothing about those already in sheol. They get to hang out down there another 1,000 years.

"But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished."

It has been over 1900 years and those dead in sheol at the time Acts 17 was mentioned are still in sheol. Many living have joined them. So only the generation that is actually alive at the Second Coming are the living that are actually judged. They will also be scoffing the Gospel. 2 Peter 3 They are no different than the living in the first century.

Of course there have been some days where God did judge the living in the last 1992 years. Even if every time bad people died it was God, that one day is still future because it will be Jesus in person on that day.

"He will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead."

Jesus is that man who resurrected from the dead. That was the resurrection in those verses, not all humans in sheol. Saying this is the GWT event is misquoting God's Word.

So this judgment can only happen at the Second Coming, and only to those alive. You know, that generation that sees all from the fig tree until an AoD. It cannot happen between the fig tree blooming and the Second Coming, because Jesus is not here in person until after the Second Coming.

 

[Timtofly]

You said Historicism wrongly teaches that Matthew 24 was fulfilled in 70 A.D., right?

The point was also brought up, that the popes "fulfilled" the Abomination of Desolation.

70AD would be a preterist/historist position.

The poster vehemently objects to any future application especially when it involves dispensations of time.

Yet even Paul states in Acts 17, that up until that time God winked at human ignorance. But now commands all the inhabitants of the world to repent. The Second Coming brings judgment, implying the dispensation of repentance will come to an end in the future, at the Second Coming.

You all can interpret history as being fulfilled up to a certain point. That is Matthew 24:4-14. But there is a future end.

 

[Davy]

It's about a form of witchcraft and NOT the rapture plain as day.

Why not just say it's about the theory of evolution too, or fibs like Donald Trump is a liar too? or just make anything OTHER THAN what the actual Scripture states???

God was rebuking the religious LEADERS of His people there, not witches!

Ezek 13:2-5
2 Son of man, prophesy against the prophets of Israel that prophesy, and say thou unto them that prophesy out of their own hearts, Hear ye the word of the LORD;

3 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe unto the foolish prophets, that follow their own spirit, and have seen nothing!

4 O Israel, thy prophets are like the foxes in the deserts.

5 Ye have not gone up into the gaps, neither made up the hedge for the house of Israel to stand in the battle in the day of the LORD.
KJV

The "house of Israel" in that day of Ezekiel meant ONLY the ten scattered tribes of the northern "kingdom of Israel" God originally put under Jeroboam of the tribe of Ephraim as king of Israel. That reference to making a 'stand' in the "day of the LORD" is about the very end... of this present world, i.e., our days. The majority of the ten tribes were scattered to the western nations of Asia Minor and Europe, and became the "multitude of nations" prophetic fulfillment to Ephraim (Genesis 48). So that involves CHRIST'S CHURCH in the Christian West. That is where many of the seed of Israel are, and are part of Christ's Church today.

Thus God is speaking to the PASTORS of the ten scattered tribes of Israel, of Christ's Church!

Unbelieving Jews are not teaching a Pre-trib 'fly away' Rapture, pastors in the Christian Church are preaching that LIE. God is against it, as He shows in that Ezekiel 13 chapter.

 

[Davy]

You're statement is a non-sequitur, straw man.
....

And thus your response shows NO Scripture backup, as if backed in a corner, and instead using an attempt to sound like a scholar who's view should not be questioned!

BRETHREN IN CHRIST JESUS:
There is a strategy by the workers of iniquity today to try and refute the "abomination of desolation" event that Lord Jesus quoted from the Book of Daniel, in His Olivet discourse (Matthew 24; Mark 13).

Both men's doctrines of Preterism and Historicism wrongly try to say the "abomination of desolation" event from the Book of Daniel is about the 70 A.D. destruction of the 2nd temple in Jerusalem by the Romans. That is NOT what the "abomination of desolation" is about in Scripture.

The "abomination of desolation" event that Lord Jesus quoted from the Book of Daniel is about the placing of an IDOL ABOMINATION INSIDE A STANDING JEWISH TEMPLE in Jerusalem for the end of this world. It is about the "image of the beast" recorded in Revelation 13.

Per Daniel 11, one called a "vile person" is to make a "league" with a small group of Jews in Jerusalem, and re-establish the old covenant. Then he will be against the "holy covenant" and those with him, and will end the daily sacrifices and instead place an IDOL abomination in the temple instead. This is specifically the event that will kick off the "great tribulation" at the end of this world, as Lord Jesus showed in Matthew 24:15 forward.

The orthodox unbelieving Jews today still... believe they are under the old covenant. That's why they are planning to build a new Jewish temple and start up old covenant worship with animal sacrifices again in Jerusalem.

 

[covenantee]

You all are great at misquotes. You add the phrase "and judge those resurrected from sheol."

Copy/paste, and provide the post number of, your hallucinated allegation.

 

[covenantee]

The point was also brought up, that the popes "fulfilled" the Abomination of Desolation.

Copy/paste, and provide the post number of, your hallucinated allegation.

 

[covenantee]

The "abomination of desolation" event that Lord Jesus quoted from the Book of Daniel is about the placing of an IDOL ABOMINATION INSIDE A STANDING JEWISH TEMPLE in Jerusalem for the end of this world.

Neither an idol nor a temple appear in the Matthew 24 description of the abomination of desolation.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

When scriptures speaks of God judging the world, it's about the unsaved.

So, just ignore the context of Acts 17:30-31 then.

Actually it was about the unsaved because it is the unsaved he died for. After that, those that choose Christ became the saved and are no longer part of the "world".

LOL. What a ridiculous case of twisting scripture. So, when it says God so loved the world, that doesn't include you? That's the kind of logic you're using here. LOL.

It's not, you are wrong.

Great argument. Very convincing.

The saved are not judged at the time the unsaved are. Go ahead and look at Revelation 20. No one at the Great White Throne Judgement (GWTJ) is receiving reward.

What do you call the new heavens and new earth? That is a reward for believers. There were no chapter breaks in the original manuscripts. Revelation 21 is where it starts talking about what happens to believers at that point.

They ALL go to the lake of fire. The come from dark places like the sea, death and and hell. The righteous are not in those places.

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

So, just ignore passages like Matthew 13:40-43, Matthew 13:47-50 and Matthew 25:31-46 then. Or are those passages not in your Bible? They all teach that all of the righteous and the wicked are gathered together at the same time and then judged.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

We see the same event in Daniel:

Dan 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.


Here are multiple thrones and God the Father himself sitting there.


Dan 7:10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

That doesn't remind you of this:

Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Another example of the righteous being judged separately from the wicked:


Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Mat 25:35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Mat 25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
Mat 25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
Mat 25:38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
Mat 25:39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
Mat 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.


Here we again have judgment of the righteous first! No wicked are being judged with the righteous.


Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Mat 25:42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
Mat 25:43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
Mat 25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
Mat 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

You have to be kidding me here. You're being rather selective in your quoting of that passage.

Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

The righteous and the wicked are all gathered AT THE SAME TIME when He returns. What do you think, that the goats/wicked will just be standing there before the throne for 1,000+ years before they are finally judged? What nonsense!

 

[Phoneman777]

The point was also brought up, that the popes "fulfilled" the Abomination of Desolation.

70AD would be a preterist/historist position.

You're not making sense. PLEASE be specific. WHAT ABOUT 70 A.D. so you claim is Jesuit Preterist and Protestant Historicist?

 

[Phoneman777]

And thus your response shows NO Scripture backup, as if backed in a corner, and instead using an attempt to sound like a scholar who's view should not be questioned!

BRETHREN IN CHRIST JESUS:
There is a strategy by the workers of iniquity today to try and refute the "abomination of desolation" event that Lord Jesus quoted from the Book of Daniel, in His Olivet discourse (Matthew 24; Mark 13).

Both men's doctrines of Preterism and Historicism wrongly try to say the "abomination of desolation" event from the Book of Daniel is about the 70 A.D. destruction of the 2nd temple in Jerusalem by the Romans. That is NOT what the "abomination of desolation" is about in Scripture.

The "abomination of desolation" event that Lord Jesus quoted from the Book of Daniel is about the placing of an IDOL ABOMINATION INSIDE A STANDING JEWISH TEMPLE in Jerusalem for the end of this world. It is about the "image of the beast" recorded in Revelation 13.

Per Daniel 11, one called a "vile person" is to make a "league" with a small group of Jews in Jerusalem, and re-establish the old covenant. Then he will be against the "holy covenant" and those with him, and will end the daily sacrifices and instead place an IDOL abomination in the temple instead. This is specifically the event that will kick off the "great tribulation" at the end of this world, as Lord Jesus showed in Matthew 24:15 forward.

The orthodox unbelieving Jews today still... believe they are under the old covenant. That's why they are planning to build a new Jewish temple and start up old covenant worship with animal sacrifices again in Jerusalem.

I don't like it when people misrepresent my words. Either display a level of Christian chat room maturity that invites discourse by admitting you jumped to the wrong conclusion, or I'd prefer we ignore each other, OK?

 

[Timtofly]

You're not making sense. PLEASE be specific. WHAT ABOUT 70 A.D. so you claim is Jesuit Preterist and Protestant Historicist?

There is literally nothing about 70AD in all accounts of the OD. You will have to state what you believe about 70AD if you want me to address something about 70AD.

I am not going to make a list of every one's belief on 70AD.

 

[Phoneman777]

There is literally nothing about 70AD in all accounts of the OD. You will have to state what you believe about 70AD if you want me to address something about 70AD.

I am not going to make a list of every one's belief on 70AD.

70 A.D. saw the destruction of Jerusalem. In 70 A.D. the city was destroyed and they tore down the temple buildings to get the gold that had melted and run down into the crevasses, which is not hard to imagine. People expend much resourses and time blowing up dynamite in the hope of finding gold, so what sane Roman would not immediate throw every stone block down to obtain the melted gold that a blind man could see was there?

 

[ewq1938]

That doesn't remind you of this:

Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

That is AFTER the ten horned beast was destroyed but Daniel is BEFORE the ten horned beast is destroyed so not the same time frame.

Dan 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
Dan 7:10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
Dan 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
Dan 7:12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

You have to be kidding me here. You're being rather selective in your quoting of that passage.

Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

The righteous and the wicked are all gathered AT THE SAME TIME when He returns. What do you think, that the goats/wicked will just be standing there before the throne for 1,000+ years before they are finally judged? What nonsense![

How is it nonsense to agree with scripture? Read Revelation 20 and see how the thousand years happens BEFORE the Great White Throne Judgement (GWTJ) of the unsaved happens:

Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
The Defeat of Satan
Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Judgment Before the Great White Throne
Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.[/QUOTE]

 

[Timtofly]

70 A.D. saw the destruction of Jerusalem. In 70 A.D. the city was destroyed and they tore down the temple buildings to get the gold that had melted and run down into the crevasses, which is not hard to imagine. People expend much resourses and time blowing up dynamite in the hope of finding gold, so what sane Roman would not immediate throw every stone block down to obtain the melted gold that a blind man could see was there?

Jesus was not on the mount of Olives, but actually in Jerusalem, when He pointed out the temple would be destroyed. The OD itself never mentions 70AD.

 

[Davy]

I don't like it when people misrepresent my words.

Then maybe you should stop doing that, because I haven't. You have not been open about what all the theory of Historicism teaches about the "abomination of desolation" event. I took care of that in my previous post when I explained how it is meant according to God's Word, and how Historicism has a make-believe idea about it. So if you want to claim I was misrepresenting your words with doing that, then I say you must have mental issues.