The Pre-Trib Rapture

[Phoneman777]

fool yourself all you want, but salvation through by grace through faith so that no one can boast is the actual conservative view

Not the hyper-grace brand you teach with its OSAS License to Sin. You can't get any more leftist than that.

works-salvation through Judaizing mockery of self-willed ceremonial sabbath "so-called-observation" ((not at all according to the law, as tho you even begin to keep it)) is a purely modern, 19th century Ellen-Whiteism invention. check the history. read the church fathers.

Don't you get tired of the lies you spew? SDAs don't preach works-based anything, but the whole Gospel, which is salvation by grace through faith alone and the evidence for saving faith is obedience unto righteousness, while the rebellion you preach is evidence for sin unto death.

you're way out on a limb and literally no one who wasn't already indoctrinated on the whole Christian internet accepts you -- which ought to by all rights give you pause, but surprisingly, it doesn't in fact you complain that our elders accept my actual Christianity instead of your blatant heresy. amazing! wow you are quite the character!

If Jesus were here today demanding to know why you call Him, Lord Lord, but refusing to keep His commandments, you'd be right there with the majority to accuse Him and eventually call for His death.

i've hardly ever met someone so vain, since that famous COC heretic i drove away with scripture years ago! you're amazing. thanks again. enjoy your 15 minutes!! i'm grateful for your pseudo-attention, as in all things. you honor me with the opportunity to be able to refute over and over and over and over and over and over on several websites someone so peculiarly obsessed with attacking Christians. i am undeserving of such an honor, yet God grants it to me. praise God for His infinite mercy and everlasting lovingkindness!! that's 100% sincere -- you are very special most humans are nowhere near as... well let's just keep it at "special"

Yes, your hopeless Christian defeatism will drive all who believe it away from Scritpure - so please stop preaching it.

 

[Phoneman777]

Actually, it says something different from that.

Much love!

The Peshitta says exactly that, according to Lamsa ;)

 

[Phoneman777]

Galatians 5:1-6 KJV
1) Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
2) Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
3) For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
4) Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
5) For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
6) For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.


Galatians 5:13-14 KJV
13) For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
14) For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.


So, OK, Phoneman, why the two different seeming statements? Jesus taught to keep the commandments. Paul is here saying, if you set yourself to Lawkeeping, you'd better keep them all perfectly. And that this is actually, "Fallen from grace." Why the difference?

Much love!

Easiest question to answer:

Obedience to the law is not a yoke of bondage.
Obedience to the law for the purpose of obtaining salvation is a yoke of bondage.

There are three kinds of Christians:
1) the mature, learned, well adjusted adult Christian who knows this to be Biblically true
2) the immature, weak, whiny antinomianist Christian who misuses such verses to establish his flawed religion
3) the sincere Christian who knows only antinomianist lies but is following the Holy Spirit out of them

I prefer to think you're a number 3, brother, as I once was.

 

[Phoneman777]

Because Jesus' Olivet Discourse was NOT fulfilled in 70 A.D. And as I HAVE ALREADY SAID TO YOU, Jesus told those upon the Mount of Olives that the generation which sees "all these things", will not pass until "all these things" come to pass, and He was pointing to ALL of those Signs He gave in those Matthew 24 and Mark 13 and Luke 21 chapters of His Olivet discourse.

That means even the event of not one stone atop another is part of "all these things" the final generation is to see at the end of this world, and not in 70 A.D.

He didn't say "all these things must come to pass in 70 A.D." - He said they must come to pass so don't be troubled, right?

 

[Phoneman777]

So, that doesn't apply to me then, right? Since I don't have any conviction that I should be keeping the Sabbath the way you understand it. So, would you say that I don't have the mark of the beast then even though I don't observe the Sabbath the way you think I should?

What does this mean?

Exactly. If you're not convicted of truth, you're not held accountable for that truth.

The danger lies when we come under Holy Spirit conviction but allow our prejudice to rebel against it, then we are most certainly in eternal trouble, not because we refuse to act, but because we're evicted Jesus from the throne of our heart - the refusal to act is only the outward evidence of that inward eviction.

 

[Phoneman777]

You won't even tell me exactly what you think it means to keep His commandments, so how can I answer your question? Does it mean to keep His commandments perfectly without ever sinning? If so, I can't say that I'm doing that. But, I do love God with all my heart, soul and mind and love my neighbor as myself, which sums up God's commandments. So, in that sense, I would say that I am keeping His commandments.

Why is there confusion about how to keep God's commandments? Just keep them, but keep the "SPIRIT" of them, which by default means you'll be keeping the letter of them. The Jews thought the letter alone was enough, but the Spirit of them is what God desires - it's not enough to refrain from literal adultery while constantly looking in lust, but when Jesus changes the heart, you will neither commit adultery NOR WILL YOU LOOK IN LUST.

You keep the 7th by not committing adultery.
You keep the 8th by not stealing.
You keep the 9th by not lying.
You keep the 6th by not murdering.

Can you elaborate?

 

[marks]

Easiest question to answer:

Obedience to the law is not a yoke of bondage.
Obedience to the law for the purpose of obtaining salvation is a yoke of bondage.

There are three kinds of Christians:
1) the mature, learned, well adjusted adult Christian who knows this to be Biblically true
2) the immature, weak, whiny antinomianist Christian who misuses such verses to establish his flawed religion
3) the sincere Christian who knows only antinomianist lies but is following the Holy Spirit out of them

I prefer to think you're a number 3, brother, as I once was.

There are two kinds of Christians, those trusting in Christ, and those trusting something else. Those serving Christ, or those serving something else. Those loving with Christ's love, or those doing something else.

I prefer to think you are the former, and not the latter.

Much love!

 

[marks]

The Peshitta says exactly that, according to Lamsa ;)

Ok, but that's just cherry picking an interpretive translation because it agrees with your point, isn't it? What other translation says that? Certainly the Greek doesn't agree!

Much love!

 

[marks]

Obedience to the law is not a yoke of bondage.

Why would you endeavor to keep the Mosaic Covenant as if it were yours, and not serve Christ in love, which goes beyond the law?

The Law is a ministry of death.

Much love!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The "sabbath" of Colossians ain't talking about the weekly Sabbath because it's not a shadow of anything.

A "shadow of heavenly things" points to something in the Plan of Salvation Jesus would do for us to save us, understand?

Jesus came to give us rest from our trials and tribulations by resting in Him, understand? You are ignoring that scripture because you know it contradicts your beliefs, understand?

Do I have to repeat that?

No, you don't need to repeat your false understanding of scripture, understand?

The following "shadows" point to just that:

Passover- He died for our sins.
Unleavened Bread- His body remained uncorrupted while entombed showing His perfect sacrifice.
First Fruits- Our resurrection is made possible only by His resurrection, without which we're "perished".
Feast of Weeks- He poured out the Holy Spirit so we could overcome sin an
Trumpets- He announced the Day of Atonement is imminent.
Day of Atonement- Christ's final Judgment and eradication of sin and impenitent sinners
Tabernacles- Jesus finally comes for His Saints to be with Him forevermore.

Q. What thing did Christ come and do, to which the weekly Sabbath points to as a "shadow"?
A. Absolutely nothing - it is not a shadow pointing to anything future, it's a memorial pointing to Creation, so please stop making it be something it's not.

I completely disagree. He came to give us rest EVERY DAY. So, we rest in Him every day. It's all about Him. You make it all about you by acting as if salvation is dependent on what day we observe the Sabbath (as if the Sabbath commandment was even given to Gentiles, which it wasn't).

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Why is there confusion about how to keep God's commandments? Just keep them, but keep the "SPIRIT" of them, which by default means you'll be keeping the letter of them.

There isn't confusion about that at all. I'm asking you how well do we need to keep the commandments in order to be satisfactory? 100% of the time? 75% of the time. I'm trying to find out what exactly your understanding is of keeping the commandments. You don't seem to want to clarify that.

The Jews thought the letter alone was enough, but the Spirit of them is what God desires - it's not enough to refrain from literal adultery while constantly looking in lust, but when Jesus changes the heart, you will neither commit adultery NOR WILL YOU LOOK IN LUST.

Never? So, that just happens automatically and we don't have to put any effort into fighting against temptation and praying that He will help us to not lust?

You keep the 7th by not committing adultery.
You keep the 8th by not stealing.
You keep the 9th by not lying.
You keep the 6th by not murdering.

Can you elaborate?

You are clearly indicating that keeping the commandments is necessary for salvation. I say that because having the mark of the beast obviously indicates you are not saved and you're saying that not keeping the commandments, specifically the commandment about keeping the Sabbath, results in having the mark of the beast. So, what I'm trying to get from you is how exactly does someone keep the commandments? I know what the commandments are and how to obey them, but I'm wondering if you're saying we need to keep them perfectly and be sinless or what. What if we violate a commandment. Are we doomed or can we be forgiven? That's what I'm getting at and what I'm trying to understand from your perspective.

 

[Phoneman777]

There are two kinds of Christians, those trusting in Christ, and those trusting something else. Those serving Christ, or those serving something else. Those loving with Christ's love, or those doing something else.

I prefer to think you are the former, and not the latter.

Much love!

That's too general a characterization. It doesn't address specifics.

What's it mean to "trust" Christ? Solomon says "Trust in the Lord...in all thy ways submit to Him." Biblical "trust" demands that we "submit" to His commandments and obey them, right?

What's it mean to "love" Christ? Jesus says "If ye love Me, keep My commandments" and "For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments and His commadnedments are not grievous".

What's it mean to "serve" Christ? Jesus says, "So when you have done all that your Heavenly Father hath commanded you to do you are to say, We are unprofitable servants".

 

[marks]

You keep the 7th by not committing adultery.

To truly keep the spirit of the commandment, you no longer see people according to the flesh, that is, you no longer see people as objects to be rated according to your taste, or to gratify any desire. You see them as children of God, or as those who could yet become children of God, and you seek to nourish them in these regards, to build them up as God's children, or so that they may become God's children.

Then you are not using them to satisfy your eyes, or your flesh, but you are used by God to enrich them. Instead of benefit coming inward to you, benefit goes outward to them.

You keep the 6th by not murdering.

To truly keep the spirit of the commandment, you no longer see people according to the flesh, that is, you no longer see people as objects to be removed because you think they should be. You see them as children of God, or as those who could yet become children of God, and you seek to nourish them in these regards, to build them up as God's children, or so that they may become God's children.

Then you are not using them to answer to some lack or threat in your life, so that you must kill them, but you are used by God to enrich them. Instead of benefit coming inward to you, benefit goes outward to them.

How do we keep the spirit of the prohibition against stealing?

Much love!

 

[marks]

That's too general a characterization. It doesn't address specifics.

On the contrary, Love actually leaves no stone unturned.

Much love!

 

[marks]

That's too general a characterization. It doesn't address specifics.

What's it mean to "trust" Christ? Solomon says "Trust in the Lord...in all thy ways submit to Him." Biblical "trust" demands that we "submit" to His commandments and obey them, right?

What's it mean to "love" Christ? Jesus says "If ye love Me, keep My commandments" and "For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments and His commadnedments are not grievous".

What's it mean to "serve" Christ? Jesus says, "So when you have done all that your Heavenly Father hath commanded you to do you are to say, We are unprofitable servants".

We have two commandments . . . trust Jesus, and love others. If we do these, all will be done.

Much love!

 

[post]

The Peshitta says exactly that, according to Lamsa ;)

the Christ-denying occultist Lamsa is clearly in error.

allow me to repeat the truth a second time:

 

[Phoneman777]

Jesus came to give us rest from our trials and tribulations by resting in Him, understand? You are ignoring that scripture because you know it contradicts your beliefs, understand?

It is you who refuses to understand what is plain to see: the Sabbath was created in Eden as a memorial to Creation and remains such for all time as we observe it throughout the ceaseless ages of eternity......... while the yearly Feast Day sabbaths which pointed to Jesus were nailed to the Cross and are no more. Good gravy, man, what makes you think the one commandment which begins with "Remember" is the only one we're allowed to forget?

I completely disagree. He came to give us rest EVERY DAY. So, we rest in Him every day. It's all about Him.

And Hebrews 4:9 KJV says if you're resting inwardly every day in Jesus, you'll demonstrate that by resting outwardly every weekly Sabbath from your work "as God did from His". Another reason why the weekly Sabbath is no shadow nailed to the Cross, but a memorial to both His power to Create in six days and rest the seventh day and to re-create in us a new heart that rests in Jesus which we demonstrate outwardly by resting as He rested.

You make it all about you by acting as if salvation is dependent on what day we observe the Sabbath (as if the Sabbath commandment was even given to Gentiles, which it wasn't).

You make it all about you by claiming the Cross grants you a License to Sin, which I assure you is not the case. Do you have any idea how ridiculous it is to preach we're obligated to keep NINE commandments but free to break the 4th?

 

[Phoneman777]

There isn't confusion about that at all. I'm asking you how well do we need to keep the commandments in order to be satisfactory? 100% of the time? 75% of the time. I'm trying to find out what exactly your understanding is of keeping the commandments. You don't seem to want to clarify that.

Please don't shift the conversation from the weekly Sabbath as a New Covenant commandment once written on stone but now written on the heart (2 Corinthians 3:1-3 KJV; Hebrews 8:8-10 KJV) ---- to a new topic about what we must do to be saved, OK?

I've already made it clear the Just Man who falls may obtain mercy, but the Presumptuous Man will go to hell, so please don't feign ignorance about something of which you're fully aware.

 

[Phoneman777]

To truly keep the spirit of the commandment, you no longer see people according to the flesh, that is, you no longer see people as objects to be rated according to your taste, or to gratify any desire.

Yes, if you keep the Spirit of the law, you automatically keep the letter.

How do we keep the spirit of the prohibition against stealing? Much love!

It seems to me:

The letter of the law against stealing refers to the act of theft, while the spirit of the law refers to entertaining thoughts of doing it.

If we're keep the Spirit of "thou shalt not steal", by default we'll be automatically keeping the letter.

 

[Phoneman777]

On the contrary, Love actually leaves no stone unturned.

Much love!

Then why did God have to go into so much detail, as if we're stupid sheep?

Because we are: ;)

"The heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked".
"There is a way that seemeth right to a man, but the ends thereof are the ways of death".

That's why I shared those verses with you which DEFINE those terms you speak of.