The Pre-Trib Rapture

[marks]

There's that tradition of men I was pointing to earlier regarding that Matthew 25 sheep/goats idea. That's an idea from men that completely omits other Scripture to the contrary.

Christ's "sheep" represent His Church, and that includes believing Israel.

It's the false tradition of Hyper-Dispensationalism (or Hyper-Grace some call it), that tries to separate Israel and Gentiles into two separate bodies. No, not written. And John Darby who started preaching the false Pre-trib Rapture theory in 1830's Britain is who started that Dispensationalist separation idea. There is NO SUCH THING as a Gentile only Church, nor an Israelite only Church, nor separate gatherings of each.

I say forget about the labels, just focus on what the Bible says.

I'm not trying to separate anyone . . . Jesus did that in His prophecy. The chosen are gathered, then the nations are gathered, and the nations are separated righteous and unrighteous. Jesus defines 3 groups of people, and if that doesn't make sense, it's easy to redefine one of those groups to be someone else. But we should accept what He said. And again, these things are likewise prophesied several times in the OT as well.

It does not require making this prophecy into an allegory or parable to harmonize with other passages.

Much love!

 

[Davy]

Exactly! The 12 Apostles will sit on twelve thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel.

In the church, the body of Christ, are neither Jew nor Greek. But when Jesus comes, everyone is separated into 3 groups, the chosen, the righteous from the nations, and the unrighteous from the nations. The chosen, and the nations.

In Christ, the Body of Christ, the church, these don't fit at that time. Rather than change the words to fit the ideas, change the ideas to fit the words.

Much love!

No, separating is to 2 groups only, which is what that sheep/goats prophecy is about. Your 3 group idea is from men's traditions, not written in God's Word.

 

[marks]

What you ought to do is dig deeper into God's Word

Every one ought to dig deeper, I should say!

Much love!

 

[Davy]

NO. It's taking a literal reading of a prophetic narrative. If we continue with this long enough, I'll be able to show you how these all harmonize, and we'll be able to accept the readings and sayings of the Bible "as is".

Much love!

Thinking that Jesus saves ALL Israelites when He comes is contrary to many Scriptures written in God's Word. But that is the false idea you are pushing.

Will all the seed of Israel be saved maybe AFTER Christ's future "thousand years" reign? Yeah, possibly. But definitely NOT on the day of His future return and initial separation of His sheep from the goats.

 

[marks]

No, separating is to 2 groups only, which is what that sheep/goats prophecy is about. Your 3 group idea is from men's traditions, not written in God's Word.

Matthew 24:30-31 KJV
30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Matthew 25:31-33 KJV
31) When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32) And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33) And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

Again, either you believe this is prophetic narrative (as I do) or you are left to explain what it REALLY means, and how you can justify claiming it means something other than exactly what it says.

And again, I suggest changing the ideas to fit the words, not changing the words to fit the ideas.

Much love!

 

[Timtofly]

(Think about it....What is the Son of man doing sitting on a cloud in Rev 14:14, when you Have the Son of man, ON EARTH at the opening of the 6th Seal in Rev 6:12, BEFORE all the Trumps judgements.)

Very particular, NO mention whatsoever of The Son of Man returning to Earth, WHILE the Lamb of God is in Heaven sending Down to Earth, His Wrath.

Simple. The earth is about to be "terraformed".

You point out Noah was above the Flood, no?

Jesus is above the earth when He creates a new heaven and earth. Isaiah 65:17. If Revelation 14 happens, then there will not be 42 months given to Satan. There will not be a Revelation 16, 17, 18, nor 19. Jesus will create the new heavens and earth, the moment the 7th Trumpet stops.

Revelation 19 is 42 months after the 7th Trumpet starts to sound.

Revelation 14 is the Sunday after the 7th Trumpet starts to sound. The week of days is not split in half for Satan's 42 months.

 

[Davy]

Every one ought to dig deeper, I should say!

Much love!

That's what I try to do.

If you look at Luke 23:27-30 with those women of the daughters of Jerusalem crying when Jesus was on His way to be crucified, and He turned to them and told them not to weep for Him, but for theirselves and for their children, because the day would come when they would desire for the mountains and hills to fall upon them (because of shame, why? because of their having rejected Him during this world).

 

[marks]

Thinking that Jesus saves ALL Israelites when He comes is contrary to many Scriptures written in God's Word. But that is the false idea you are pushing.

Will all the seed of Israel be saved maybe AFTER Christ's future "thousand years" reign? Yeah, possibly. But definitely NOT on the day of His future return and initial separation of His sheep from the goats.

Romans 11:26-27 KJV
26) And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27) For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

Isaiah 59:20-21 KJV
20) And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.
21) As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever.

Zechariah 13:8-9 KJV
8) And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
9) And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

Matthew 24:31 KJV
31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Ezekiel 39:26-29 KJV
26) After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.
27) When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
28) Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.
29) Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

Much love!

 

[Davy]

Matthew 24:30-31 KJV
30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Matthew 25:31-33 KJV
31) When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32) And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33) And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

Again, either you believe this is prophetic narrative (as I do) or you are left to explain what it REALLY means, and how you can justify claiming it means something other than exactly what it says.

And again, I suggest changing the ideas to fit the words, not changing the words to fit the ideas.

Much love!

Please concentrate. The gathering by Christ and His angels written in Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 is about the day of His coming and gathering of His sheep. And if you look closely, at the end of the Mark 13:24-27 example, it is about the gathering of His saints 'from' the earth, meaning those of His still alive on earth, AMONG the wicked. Those are the ones separated from the goats, those of His gathered from the earth, i.e., those "caught up" on that day per 1 Thessalonians 4:17.

 

[Taken]

Simple. The earth is about to be "terraformed".

You point out Noah was above the Flood, no?

Yes.

Revelation 19 is 42 months after the 7th Trumpet starts to sound.

After each Seal is opened. After each Trump is blown...Scripture tells what happens at each signal /seal/Trumps.

Revelation 14 is the Sunday after the 7th Trumpet starts to sound. The week of days is not split in half for Satan's 42 months.

Uh...You have kept a Hebrew lunar calendar since the Beginning to know exactly what day what will happen?

 

[Davy]

Romans 11:26-27 KJV
26) And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27) For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

Isaiah 59:20-21 KJV
20) And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.
21) As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever.

Matthew 8:11-12 Jesus shows that does not include all Israel, for even that above Isaiah 59 Scripture testifies that is only for those of Israel "that turn from transgression". Is rejecting Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ not a transgression? So like I already said, the sheep of Matthew 25 applies only to those in Christ of both the seed of Israel and the seed of Gentiles, i.e., Christ's Church. The sheep does not apply to unbelievers of the seed of Israel.

Matt 8:11-12
11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
KJV

Again, I post what Jesus said above about the unbelievers of the seed of Israel on that day, cast to where? back to the land of Israel? Well, if that's where that "outer darkness" will also be, then I guess so. But definitely not near Jesus and His gathered Church!

Zechariah 13:8-9 KJV
8) And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
9) And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

You posted that above as filler, and without actually reading it. It in no way supports what you're trying to say. If anything, it reveals that only a third portion of the seed of Israel will be saved.

Matthew 24:31 KJV
31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Ezekiel 39:26-29 KJV
26) After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.
27) When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
28) Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.
29) Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

Much love!

Ezekiel 39 is pointing to the "house of Israel", the scattered ten tribes of Israel. It is about the believers of Christ's Church of the seed of Israel.

The Matthew 24 Scripture, as I've already shown, is about Christ's Church of both believing Israel and believing Gentile.

 

[Timtofly]

You probably won't listen, so this is likely for those brethren in Christ that will listen.

Apostle John in 1 John 2:18 revealed that a singular "antichrist" shall come, which they had already heard about, and yet there also were "many antichrists" already at work. Apostle Paul gave that same warning in 2 Thessalonians 2, and so did Lord Jesus below...

The 'many antichrists' idea:
Matt 24:5
5 For many shall come in My name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
KJV


The singular coming antichrist idea:
Matt 24:23-26
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, "Lo, here is Christ, or there"; believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, "Behold, He is in the desert"; go not forth: behold, "He is in the secret chambers"; believe it not.
KJV

In those parts in red, Jesus is pointing to a singular false Christ.

Even the Greek for "false Christs" in verse 24 is simply the sole Greek word 'pseudochristos', made up of 2 Greek words, pseudo meaning false, and Christos which is singular for Christ (see Strong's nos.5571 and 5548).

The reason these Matthew 24:23-26 verses are about a 'singular' antichrist those in 1 John 2:18 had already heard shall come, is because this one is to work those great signs and wonders that IF possible, would deceive even Christ's very elect. The working of those 'great signs and wonders' is the key, and links directly to 2 Thessalonians 2 about the false one there, and to Revelation 13:11 about the "another beast" that is to do that same working of miracles to deceive.

In 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4, Apostle Paul warns of a "man of sin" that is to come, sitting in the temple of God (a new temple for the end in Jerusalem), proclaiming himself as God, and over all the is called God, or that is worshiped. That's John's singular "antichrist" idea. And then in 2 Thessalonians 2:7 Paul reveals that the "mystery of iniquity" is already at work, which is John's idea about the "many antichrists" already at work. And at 2 Thessalonians 2:9 verse tells us that false one is coming after the working of Satan, with all power and signs and lying wonders. So that's a direct connection to the Matthew 24:24 working of "great signs and wonders".

Thusly, the Matthew 24:5, Matthew 24:23-26, 2 Thessalonians 2:3, 2:7, 2:9, and Revelation 13:11-14, and 1 John 2:18 Scriptures are all about the same subject of a singular antichrist, and the many antichrists (his followers).

We've already had many in history that claimed to be Christ, but NONE of them had the power of those great signs and wonders. The Antichrist to come at the end of this world will have that power, as those Scripture examples attest.

Satan is that "man of sin".

Remember how angels appear as human when on earth? Do you think Satan has appeared yet as a dragon on earth? How about a devil with two horns? Revelation 13:11

How about an angel of light? Paul was pointing out Satan on earth walking around as a human.

Is Satan going to hold a news conference soon to point out to the whole world, who he is?

If God allows Satan 42 months to be in total control, and that is a big IF, then Satan will introduce his FP, and together they will introduce the beast, John's AC in the book of Revelation. Since John is the expert on antichrists, then John is saying there will not be an AC on earth until, and only if Satan is given 42 months. Revelation 13:5

"And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months."

This will only be determined at the 7th Trumpet. It may or may not happen. We are given the worse case scenario. Revelation 14 is the best case scenario, with no 42 months granted.

 

[Taken]

I say forget about the labels, just focus on what the Bible says.

I'm not trying to separate anyone . . . Jesus did that in His prophecy. The chosen are gathered, then the nations are gathered, and the nations are separated righteous and unrighteous. Jesus defines 3 groups of people, and if that doesn't make sense, it's easy to redefine one of those groups to be someone else. But we should accept what He said. And again, these things are likewise prophesied several times in the OT as well.

It does not require making this prophecy into an allegory or parable to harmonize with other passages.

Much love!

I’ve had charts 15 ft long in time lines putting in categories who, what, when, why, where in end of days timelines...Very time consuming and had to keep up with it daily over a year, to focus on each group, Israel, Gentiles, with, without, after death, before death, eras, who knew what when, applicability, blah, blah blah.... Trying to put a few blips on a forum...TOUGH. And those without deep study, not a clue, and no one-Liner to point to to cover everything.
I would say few read a Bible, let alone deep study. Frustrating at times for this type of media.
Just noting...

 

[farouk]

I’ve had charts 15 ft long in time lines putting in categories who, what, when, why, where in end of days timelines...Very time consuming and had to keep up with it daily over a year, to focus on each group, Israel, Gentiles, with, without, after death, before death, eras, who knew what when, applicability, blah, blah blah.... Trying to put a few blips on a forum...TOUGH. And those without deep study, not a clue, and no one-Liner to point to to cover everything.
I would say few read a Bible, let alone deep study. Frustrating at times for this type of media.
Just noting...

@Taken So have your many years of study been at least partly among groups of a dispensational outlook?

 

[marks]

There's that tradition of men I was pointing to earlier regarding that Matthew 25 sheep/goats idea. That's an idea from men that completely omits other Scripture to the contrary.

And I submit that this is how the Scriptures harmonize.

Would you suggest a particular passage to look at that you feel negates this from being a narrative prophecy, as it is presented? If we are to not accept the straightforward reading, I think we need particularly good cause, would you agree?

I'll ask at the start that you ignore "dispensationist" ideas, and simply examine my answers to see if they match the Bible, Not Darby et al. I don't even really know what he taught, so trying to debate me as though I'm him isn't really going to work out.

Much love!

 

[Davy]

Satan is that "man of sin".

Yes, with that I agree. The coming Antichrist, pseudo-Christ, "man of sin", "another beast", will be Satan himself. But how does he manifest? That's probably where you and I differ. My understanding from Scripture is that Satan is coming to earth manifesting as himself, with the image of man which he also has in the heavenly. He is coming here in our earthly dimension, de facto in person, and the world will wonder at him, and all the great signs and miracles he will work to deceive.

I can pretty much guarantee, Satan doesn't really have horns and a pitchfork, nor does he wear red flannel underwear.

In the parable of Ezekiel 28, God said He made him the 'full pattern', meaning the full pattern of beauty. He is a beautiful cherub, and with the image of man, since that is the outward likeness from God Himself that He made all angels and us with.

The Revelation 12:7-17 Scripture reveals when the war in Heaven happens, there will be no more place found in Heaven for the dragon and his angels. There's only two places of existence in God's Word, the Heavenly one, and this earthly one. So if he is booted out of Heaven with his angels, where do you think he will appear, literally?

 

[farouk]

And I submit that this is how the Scriptures harmonize.

Would you suggest a particular passage to look at that you feel negates this from being a narrative prophecy, as it is presented? If we are to not accept the straightforward reading, I think we need particularly good cause, would you agree?

I'll ask at the start that you ignore "dispensationist" ideas, and simply examine my answers to see if they match the Bible, Not Darby et al. I don't even really know what he taught, so trying to debate me as though I'm him isn't really going to work out.

Much love!

@marks Everyone brings some sort of presupposition to reading the Scriptures, but the blessing is to be able with humility receive what is clearly revealed, comparing Scripture with Scripture.

 

[marks]

I’ve had charts 15 ft long in time lines putting in categories who, what, when, why, where in end of days timelines...Very time consuming and had to keep up with it daily over a year, to focus on each group, Israel, Gentiles, with, without, after death, before death, eras, who knew what when, applicability, blah, blah blah.... Trying to put a few blips on a forum...TOUGH. And those without deep study, not a clue, and no one-Liner to point to to cover everything.
I would say few read a Bible, let alone deep study. Frustrating at times for this type of media.
Just noting...

Yep. I've still got the charts I made. And I amaze myself that I used to have that kind of time!

You really nailed it . . . "trying to put a few blips on a forum". I'm constantly trying to think how to succinctly explain things when you need to understand the correlation between so many different passages.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Matt 8:11-12
11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
KJV

So you think that being cast to the "outer darkness" means being saved by Jesus??? I hope you don't think that.

I think the real question is, who are these children of the kingdom who will be cast out? Those of Jesus' day who rejected Him? OR those at the end of the age of whom is prophesied that they will all be regathered, all be saved?

Much love!

 

[Davy]

And I submit that this is how the Scriptures harmonize.

Would you suggest a particular passage to look at that you feel negates this from being a narrative prophecy, as it is presented? If we are to not accept the straightforward reading, I think we need particularly good cause, would you agree?

I'll ask at the start that you ignore "dispensationist" ideas, and simply examine my answers to see if they match the Bible, Not Darby et al. I don't even really know what he taught, so trying to debate me as though I'm him isn't really going to work out.

Much love!

I cannot ignore the origin of some of the doctrines of men you express. When I say that, I assure you, those are not doctrines written in God's Word. If they were, you could back it up in Scripture, and you've yet to do that, because you ignore the following Scripture I showed you, what? now THREE TIMES?!

Matt 8:11-12
11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
KJV