The Pre-Trib Rapture

[Timtofly]

Are we allowed to use other scripture to help us understand the book of Revelation or are we supposed to read the book of Revelation in isolation from other scripture?

So if there is not a verse in Revelation with "chaos" that literally states "millions will disappear in the air", can we use other Scripture to point out the same event?

You really want us to find one isolated verse in Revelation that describes exactly what you want it to?

Where is the verse in Revelation that declares the events have to be read as parallelism or recapitulation, both human opinions added to biblical interpretation? In fact what other verse in Scripture claims Revelation is a series of camara views from different angles of the same event? This is all opinion taught to people, as bias of their human theology.

Jesus is not sitting on a throne in Jerusalem until after the Second Coming. Matthew 25:31 is not a parable, nor a symbolic verse. It is the literal result of a literal Second Coming.

Matthew 24:29-31 and the sign of the Second Coming is literally the opening of the 6th Seal. Those hiding under rocks and in the mountains, are not instantly vaporized. They can see the GWT, and the face of God. They can see Jesus in all His glory. They just witnessed all the church glorified in the firmament, because heaven just dissolved, and all the stars in the firmament are now standing on earth as angels looking like humans, because that is what angels look like when they are on the earth as opposed to looking like the stars doing their jobs in the firmament, their first estate, when not being a messenger on earth.

Jesus and the angels are here on earth per Matthew 13:37-43 to carry out the final harvest, and that is the time of the GT, because all of Adam's dead corruptible flesh will physically die, and the angels will take the souls of humans to their eternal state: Life or Death. Jesus is the Resurrection and the Life. Being rejected by Jesus is eternal Death.

A few events later in this judgment period, those angels of Satan will be released from the pit. It does not happen all in the same moment of time. John shows it as a systematic series of events that all have to play out one by one, not stacked up on top of each other. Jesus first touches down and changes the geographical make up off the area around Jerusalem. Then sets up a throne and temple. Then separates the sheep and goats from all Nations, that is all the lost tribes of Israel. That is the literal outcome of the symbolism of the first 6 Trumpets.

The Seals and Trumpets are not symbolic of the last 1992 years since the Cross. They are events surrounding the literal physical Second Coming of Jesus as Prince in Daniel 9. Christ the King. The 7th Trumpet signals the time is up for Daniel's 70 weeks. The time is also up for Adam's 6,000 years, 6 Days of labor handed to Adam by God when Adam disobeyed God, allowing sin and death into the world. The time of sin and death will be over. Unless that time is extended for 42 months and the earth handed over to Satan.

Satan is not given control prior to the Second Coming. This 42 months may not even happen. This government mentioned in Revelation 13, 17, and 18 is after the Second Coming and after the chaos of all the continents moving out of their places. If all continents move out of their current location it would be back to the pre-Flood condition. The Flood of Noah's day divided one single continent into many. The Second Coming returns them into one land governed by one King, Jesus, the Lamb of God.

Islands in the 6th Seal being symbolic of the different continents. Mountains being both literal mountains and the governments of earth being in total chaos, and men trying to hide behind those nations will be as futile as hiding in literal mountains. Jerusalem/Israel will be the central nation or mountain above all the other Nations or mountains. And they all will be one land mass, without separation or division. But if Satan is given 42 months a new set of ten nations will arise from this chaos/the sea. But none of this can happen until after the 6th Seal, Second Coming.

The opening of the pit at the 5th Trumpet is not a different camara view of the glorification of the entire church at the Second Coming, the 5th Seal.

Satan's army in the 6th Trumpet is not the same army in the 4th Seal.

 

[marks]

among those with whom I disagree is a lack of backbone:

This, and the rest of your post seems a bit lashing out to me.

Much love!

 

[marks]

How in the world could anyone left behind be deceived when the evidence for a Biblical supernatural event has taken place? They will mark the exact moment everyone disappeared, calculate to the second when the 7 years is over, and drop a ball in Times Square as they countdown to zero, right?

Interesting idea, and it sold a lot of books, but I don't see it playing out that way. I think a lot of the world will think the Christians are still here.

The end comes as a sudden destruction, not a Left Behind series.

Much love!

 

[marks]

And if the Antichrist is already here, and has been for 1500 years, and you've failed to not only recognize him, but are surrendered to His authority in some areas already, what of the future when all hell breaks loose and confusion reigns globally?

There are many antichrist, but the man of sin is someone in particular.

Are you talking about "the mark of the beast is in the mind"? Like that?

Much love!

 

[marks]

The bottom line here is that Paul taught that a mass falling away from the faith would occur and the man of sin would be revealed BEFORE the day Christ returns and we're gathered to Him. And you're not accepting that.

Yes, the Day of Christ.

I'm talking about the rapture.

And what Paul wrote was not "Mass falling away", he wrote "apostasia", which is a departure, and was commonly used in reference to departing from the faith, but also means plain and simple departure.

Now, you can argue that this is not the correct interpretation here, but I do not understand why someone would argue that this isn't what the word itself means.

And he said it would be before the day of Christ, but he did not say it would be before our being gathered to him.

Look at the passage. What I'm saying here is true.

Much love!

 

[marks]

You're all hung up on whether or not it's something that can be recognized (I believe it can be spiritually discerned), but nowhere did Paul indicate that it would be something easily recognized when it happens.

The word "apostasia" means "departure". It was commonly used of ideological departure, but the word means departure. So when you are determining which should be the correct understanding, I find it helpful to examine the implications of either POV.

If "departure", that is, a "leaving", then we have one set of circumstances.

The people were asking, what about this? The day of Christ? What about our being gathered to Jesus? Not to worry, that day won't come but the departure come first, and the man of sin be revealed.

But if it's apostacy, you end up with a different set of circumstances. Such as, the meaning and visibility of the sign. You answer this as, "it will be spiritually discerned", that is, you will just know. Of course, that could have been the original answer, "You'll just know when it's the time . . ."

If I'm hung up on anything, it's knowing what it true. And I find it useful to examine many things from many perspectives, and I find many implications of various views that really don't pan out well, or are in outright conflict with other passages.

So what? Why does this matter? This is completely besides the point which is that Paul indicated that certain things have to happen first before the coming of Christ and our being gathered to Him occurs.

An example of a meaningful sign. I don't think you are following my arguments.

Look, the pre-trib rapture theory is possibly the weakest, least supportable doctrine in all of Christianity.

I find it to be the one way of understanding the rapture of the church that doesn't make a mess of the Scritpures. I've looked at the major views - my style of looking, not the surface look that seems to satisfy so many - and they create conflicts and you have to say, This doesn't mean what it says, and That doesn't mean what it says, see, this is spiritually discerned, and it means something else, trust me I know . . .

As one who takes every statement of Scripture seriously, I don't ignore the inconsistencies.

Much love!

 

[Timtofly]

What's the fear in being beheaded?
Who gonna be left at the 2nd coming ?

I guess you can find out such fear at the point you are about to be beheaded. How else is that fear realistically explained or understood?

When did I attach fear to a beheading?

Every one on earth not part of the church will be left on earth. You think people are instantly going to die at the appearance of the Lamb? What verse declares that point? Many teach an instant resurrection at the Second Coming, but don't they have to die first to be resurrected? The Second Coming catches many humans alive and not all are dead at the Second Coming. Armageddon is not the Second Coming. How do you fit Armageddon into Revelation 6:12-17? Where does it state people are killed in the 6th Seal? They are alive enough to be hiding.

 

[covenantee]

I'm talking about the rapture.

And what Paul wrote was not "Mass falling away", he wrote "apostasia", which is a departure, and was commonly used in reference to departing from the faith, but also means plain and simple departure.

Now, you can argue that this is not the correct interpretation here, but I do not understand why someone would argue that this isn't what the word itself means.

Not one English Bible version so much as hints at a rapture.

Including Darby.

 

[Taken]

Interesting idea, and it sold a lot of books, but I don't see it playing out that way. I think a lot of the world will think the Christians are still here.

The end comes as a sudden destruction, not a Left Behind series.

Much love!

Those not included in the rapture are:
Israel, Most Jews, Christian Believers, Fence sitters, Atheists, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus......ANYONE WHO:
DID NOT DO the Repent AND Work of God AND CONFESS their Work AND A reasonable Service unto God.

Remember James saying, Faith without works is dead?
Have you hear the umpteen carnal meanings of “works”?
Faith is a Gift from God for “hearing/reading” His word.
Work is BELIEVING what one hears/reads, that IS Gods Word.

Repent AND —->

John 6:
[29] Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
AND ~

Rom 10:
[9] That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
[10] For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
AND ~

Rom 12:
[1] I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

Simpler to say WHO IS included in the Rapture;
Acts 3:
[19] Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Converted, IN Christ, Christ’s Church....simple.
Not subject to Wrath.

 

[ewq1938]

The Bible teaches it implicitly and anyone who has eyes to see can do so easily:

Then explain why you have provided ZERO scripture saying the mark is Sunday worship.

 

[marks]

Not one English Bible version so much as hints at a rapture.

Including Darby.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-18 KJV
15) For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18) Wherefore comfort one another with these words.


It's from "harpadzo", translated here, "caught up". The Latin Bible used the word from which we get "rapture".

If you prefer, we can call it the "harpadzo".

Much love!

 

[Timtofly]

If Jesuit "Left Behind" Futurism was true and people who were fully convinced they were saved like the OSAS crowd got left behind, you don't think their entire world would be shattered into a bazillion pieces? They would absolutely be destroyed. In their "disillusioned" state, they'd desperately be looking around in the midst of chaos for answers, and eventually wind up running straight into the arms of the "angel of light" Lucifer who's come to impersonate Jesus.

We post-tribbers would simply quote, "If they say He's in the desert, go not forth. If they say He's in the secret (rapture) chambers, believe it not."

Since it is not true and you don't even define a different tribulation than they do, you are still all following human theology and not the Word of God.

 

[Phoneman777]

@marks etal, long but in brief.

Bunches of beliefs, views, opinions, finger pointing.
Don’t care about this guy, that guy, this group, that group...irrelevant.
Big Picture IS about an Individuals relationship WITH or WITHOUT the Lord God Almighty.

* Pre-Tribulation Rapture...is a belief that:
* Before Gods Tribulation and Wrath comes down from Heaven upon the whole world and it’s inhabitants, there is an Escape expressly for those;
...already forgiven, physically bodily dead, soul saved, spirit quickened.
...already forgiven, bodily dead, crucified with Jesus, soul saved, spirit quickened.
* The term Rapture, English from other languages, exclusive, meaning “caught up”, not Subject to Wrath.

* Everyone experiences Tribulations and wrath’s.
* Gods Tribulations and Wrath’s are Always revealed “Great”, Great Destruction, Great Turmoil, Great number of Deaths.

During Gods Great “last” Tribulation, it is a mix of Great Destruction, Turmoil......AND......Great Revival, Great saving.
* the Great Revival is particularly geared toward “THE VERY SAME”, that God sent “the Son of man” to; (2,000+ years ago).Jews and ISRAEL, Gods People.
^ They Heard, some believed, some believed then deflected, many returned to their synagogues and their Mosaic Laws, with a tiny problem, NO Temple to fulfill their yearly “animal blood sacrifice” For sin forgiveness. Today, ALL “preparations” ARE ALL READY, to build and fill a new Temple according to Scriptural requirements. The “hold up”, is the exact Site as where the Temple will be constructed.

Regarding the “new” Temple, I believe IF and WHEN a Site is selected and we begin to SEE that building coming into fruition; Gods Great Tribulation, beginning with; the Wrath of the Lamb, of the (SEALS), will be notice of a sign, Gods Tribulation is at the door step.
* It IS a slap in the Face of Jesus, rejecting Him, His Blood.
* And WHY the Lamb is angry, and WHY the Wrath from Heaven Begins with the Lamb.
* Remember, the Jews and Israel FIRST knew of Jesus, He their Savior, He their Christ Messiah, and Broadly They have Reject Him.
* And it is THEY who will build a Temple, that Jesus destroyed, as no longer necessary, to sacrifice ANIMALS and “their” Blood.
* And remember, God already promised to SAVE His people, ISRAEL.
(Sends 144,000 virgin tribesmen to teach the tribes the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Sends two witnesses to the Jews in Jerusalem to teach the Jews the gospel of Jesus Christ....
As God always planned...Tribesmen, Jews, teaching their own.)
* They turn to belief...THEN are bodily killed...soul SAVED...body’s rot, wait for resurrection in glory.

We already KNOW, (regarding @Phoneman777 point)...EVIL Spirits roam the earth. WICKED men adopt conniving, underhanded, dealings, that sound good, but have devastating outcomes. YES in the end DAYS, that SHALL occur. We can observe the current World’s wide advocacy of World “power sitters”, Agenda’s putting in motion, exactly what Phoneman IS talking about, and Scripture reveals.
It’s a forewarning. It shall occur. Even in the baby stages we can observe now, GAGS me. And those people ‘jumping on board’ are in plain view of men, and God!

The UN “power sitters”, are IN agreement. They will backstab each other trying to be the ONE seated “world leader”.
I believe the ultimate spot will be occupied someone from the Middle East.
My opinion, via Scriptural study, and observance of the Spiritual Agreement set in motion between the Pope, widely viewed the influential spokesman for “world’s Christianity community” and the Popes meetings and agreements struck WITH Islamic imam’s ...
And the already new verbiage, “Chrislam”. (Check out their 2022 agenda already underway, Chrisalm agenda 2022).

That reverts back to the “new” Jewish TEMPLE. Who will agree, allow, the new Temple to be constructed, without threat of Islamic interference?
IS the building of a “new” Temple Scriptural ? I believe in Scripture, of end days, a TEMPLE in context of an actual Temple is revealed. No hoopla about it’s Construction, but that it exists. If it exists, where did it come from? Because presently there is not one in existence.
(Not sure if...the agenda Chrislam 2022, incorporates the “new” Temple agenda of Israelites) ?? Appears to me, it does not include Jewish Israel.

And WHO, shall sit as world “leader”...UN election.
WHO, shall suffer a “mortal wound”, but a moral man? UN’s pick.
WHO, has the power to enter a morals body? Satan
WHO, shall appear miraculously as having been mortally Dead, and then Recovered...”world Leader”.
WHO, shall see that? Entire world (internet)
WHO, shall stand in Gods Temple (new construction), and declare Himself ...to be God? Spirit of Satan in a mortal mans dead body.
WHO, shall Believe it? Millions. (And subject to Gods Wrath)
Rev: TRUMPS, VIALS.
WHO, shall Not Believe it? Millions (And subject to Satans Wrath)
Rev 14:14

End of days ON Earth, The Spirits that Be, are Dividing up those WITH and AGAINST them.

Tangent things destroyed, Lands burned and Barron, Famines, water polluted, Millions of Bodily Deaths, Putrid Gaging Stench And Disease...

AND again...ANYONE...?? WHY is God, or the Lamb of God, ANGRY at men WHO,
Willingly laid down their life in death, with Jesus, received Gods forgiveness, received Gods restoration of their soul, received Gods Holy Spirit, received Gods Seed and Quickening of their spirit, they (Called the Converted IN CHRIST, Christs Church) .... That God requires THEM, who DID exactly as He asked....to be ON EARTH experiencing WRATH, TRIBULATIONS, sent down from Heaven AND the HORRIFIC PUTRID Effects thereof?

IS there something ELSE, besides;
Forgiveness, a man heartful confessed word of Belief, a mans life, a mans soul, a mans spirit...
A converted man needs be ON Earth, during Gods Great Tribulation and Wrath?

CURIOUS.

Glory to God,
Taken

The Protestant Reformation was fought over doctrine and the light of truth expelled from the world the centuries of Dark Ages...let's not return to those Dark Ages by promoting the demonic philosophy of Ecumenicalism which says "lay doctrine aside and let's just hug each other in the name of Jesus".

 

[Phoneman777]

That is not even what was said in Scripture. They were pointing out all the buildings that Herod built. The whole complex.

"And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things?

What is all these things? One building?

Good point. I think it's safe to say the words of Jesus were definitely fulfilled in 70 A.D.

 

[Phoneman777]

No, because all the church will be heading upward also shining as bright as the stars. That is just the beginning of judgment. No one knows when the Second Coming will happen, and what happens after the Second Coming is that Jesus and the angels carry out the final harvest on earth after the Second Coming. It is not all over at that moment. It is just getting started. They will not die that day. Satan's 42 months does not even start that day. No one knows the length of the Trumpets and Thunders. It certainly is not 7 years, nor only 12 hours.

You don't think the world is going to see the cosmos light up as Jesus approaches our corner of the universe? I do, because it's going to be magnificently glorious.

 

[covenantee]

1 Thessalonians 4:15-18 KJV
15) For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18) Wherefore comfort one another with these words.


It's from "harpadzo", translated here, "caught up". The Latin Bible used the word from which we get "rapture".

If you prefer, we can call it the "harpadzo".

Much love!

Sorry, there's no "harpadzo" there.

apostasia

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 646: ἀποστασία

ἀποστασία, ἀποστασιας, ἡ (ἀφισταμαι), a falling away, defection, apostasy; in the Bible namely, from the true religion: Acts 21:21; 2 Thessalonians 2:3

 

[Phoneman777]

"No" Sunday observance isn't the mark of the beast as false prophetess (Ellen G. White) taught and you believe and teach

If Scripture backs it up, it matters not who teaches it.

Scripture below "Clearly Teaches" those that break the commandments will be least in the kingdom, they aren't the condemned who have received the mark of the beast

This is the most asinine thing you've ever said. Do you not read over and over in the Bible where it says sinners are NOT getting into heaven, but are going to hell? Right there in the LAST chapter of the LAST book, it says "Blessed are they which DO HIS COMMANDMENTS that THEY THEY THEY may have right to the Tree of Life...", not sinners.

Jesus said nothing of the kind. He said sinners would be called "least" in the kingdom of heaven ... meaning those in heaven UP THERE will refer to Antinomianist rebels DOWN HERE as "the least".

Just another 7th Day Adventist "False Teaching", right along with "Soul Sleep" and the "Investigative Judgement" Hard to believe a person could follow a woman (Ellen G. White), who claimed to have 2,000 dreams and visions? Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy is more believable, and that's the truth!

I can establish from Scripture alone every single doctrine, while your Jesuit doctrines are nothing more than a part of what Luther said they were: the "Roman dunghill of decretals".

 

[Phoneman777]

This, and the rest of your post seems a bit lashing out to me.

Much love!

Not at all, friend.

 

[Phoneman777]

Interesting idea, and it sold a lot of books, but I don't see it playing out that way. I think a lot of the world will think the Christians are still here.

The end comes as a sudden destruction, not a Left Behind series.

Much love!

What an important truth to understand! We've got to make out minds the Second Coming is not a Second Chance. When Jesus comes back as "a thief in the night" to collect the saints, everyone's gonna know, the wicked are going to drop dead in their tracks as they run to the rocks and mountains, and Jesus will fulfill 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 KJV.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

When I consider the Rapture of the Church, and when it might occur

Personally, since "Eschatiology" is nopthing but a "religious way" of saying "Rank Speculation". The Assemblies of God has hung their had on "Pre", and personally I couldn't care less. It'll happen ON SCHEDULE, and in Budget. just like it's supposed to. In the meantime, i'll "occupy" till He comes (or I croak, which is more likely all things considered).