The Pre-Trib Rapture

[Spiritual Israelite]

I'd look right here for that answer.

Matthew 24
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

Nope, the answer isn't there. I see no description of millions disappearing and the consequences of that event described there. Anywhere else?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The Bible says the Mark has to do with God's commandments, for instance:

God's Law is what He wants in our forehead and the deceived get the Mark in the same, don't they?

Psalms 94 says in the end times, Satan's going to be working his deceptions "by a law", doesn't it?

Ezekiel 8 says God marked those who were faithful and those who were engaged in the worst form of apostasy - worshipping the "sun", right?

Revelation says those who do not get the Mark of the Beast are said to "keep the commandments of God", which means those who do get the Mark are breaking them.

How exactly do you think someone can "keep the commandments of God"? Are you suggesting that you never break the commandments of God?

The mark of the beast is the spiritual opposite of the seal of God. This is a salvation issue. If you have the mark of the beast then you're not saved. Since when does scripture teach that keeping the sabbath on Saturday is required for salvation? Since never. And since when was keeping the sabbath on Saturday given as a command to the Gentiles?

 

[Phoneman777]

Ok, if you think you are correct, what was the sign that happened? And what did Jesus say the sign was.

And you may not understand that a pile of stones is one stone upon another. The prophecy is unfulfilled.

Be careful with such rigidity:

I could argue they ceased to be complete temple stones as soon as they cracked and chipped in the casting down of them, thus, they are not temple stones piled up, just a bunch of rocks.

If you insisted that they still qualify as temple stones despite having lost some of their mass, I could say by your logic, the dust underneath them are "tiny temple stones" upon which the larger mass temple stones rest.

Every large mass stone would have to be airlifted out, sand blasted, and carefully placed on the ground so as not to knock loose and deposit any tiny temple stones underneath, thereby causing the prophecy to fail.

Oh, what about all those tiny temple stones - the dust? All those piles of "tiny temple stone" dust would frustrate the fulfillment of the prophecy, too, so we'd have to get an industrial size hoover vacuum to suck each one up and then somehow ensure each particle rests apart from all others, lest the prophecy fail again, right?

Can you see far your rigid interpretation can be extended out?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

So was I. Why ask such a question when Revelation itself tells us those are symbolisms giving the explanations? It doesn't help your position to cite universally recognized symbols and then ask, are these literal? Fail.

Speaking of "Fail". You fail to understand that not every symbol in the book is explained and it does not tell us that every symbol is a symbol. You believe otherwise because you want to be spoon fed everything from scripture instead of having to use any spiritual discernment.

You interpret a sword coming from Christ's mouth as fire raining down from heaven without any support or justification at all except that it supports your theological position's bias.

That's a lie. I have plenty of support and there's no bias. It is supported by other scripture that speaks of His return such as 2 Peter 3:10-12 and 2 Thess 1:7-10 which show Him destroying His enemies with fire. Are we allowed to use other scripture to help us understand the book of Revelation or are we supposed to read the book of Revelation in isolation from other scripture?

My position that the sword is symbolic and kills people is in line with the bible, yours is not. Your weak claim that a symbolic sword cannot cause physical deaths is laughable.

It doesn't get any more laughable than thinking a symbolic sword can somehow be used in a literal way like a literal sword. That's like thinking the beast is symbolic but the seven heads and ten horns are literal or something ludicrous like that.

 

[The Light]

Be careful with such rigidity:

I could argue they ceased to be complete temple stones as soon as they cracked and chipped in the casting down of them, thus, they are not temple stones piled up, just a bunch of rocks.

If you insisted that they still qualify as temple stones despite having lost some of their mass, I could say by your logic, the dust underneath them are "tiny temple stones" upon which the larger mass temple stones rest.

Every large mass stone would have to be airlifted out, sand blasted, and carefully placed on the ground so as not to knock loose and deposit any tiny temple stones underneath, thereby causing the prophecy to fail.

Oh, what about all those tiny temple stones - the dust? All those piles of "tiny temple stone" dust would frustrate the fulfillment of the prophecy, too, so we'd have to get an industrial size hoover vacuum to suck each one up and then somehow ensure each particle rests apart from all others, lest the prophecy fail again, right?

Can you see far your rigid interpretation can be extended out?

Thanks for your well thought out response. My opinion is that there is still one stone upon another as the sign Jesus gave has not occurred.

 

[Phoneman777]

I understand. Hi. I'm The Light. Nice to meet you. I certainly understand that you are a confident person, that cuts and runs when the Word disproves what they are saying. A wise man would open his eyes and seek the truth. The alternative is cut and run.

Have no answer for the sign?

Mark Twain once said "Never argue with stupid people because they will drag you down to their level then beat you with experience".

Therefore, inadequacy need not be the reason at all for why a person chooses to end a discussion.

 

[Phoneman777]

Quote EGW: “ I have seen the 1843 chart was directed by the hand of the Lord, and that it should not be altered; that the figures were as he wanted them; that His hand was over and hid a mistake in some of the figures, so that none could see it, until His hand was removed." Early Writings, p. 74.

Quote EGW: “...and the same evidence which they had presented to show that the prophetic periods closed in 1843, proved that they would terminate in 1844.” Early Writings, p. 236.

That is not a future prediction, it is commentary on the past.

LAST CHANCE: You said EGW predicted - which means to declare the future before it comes to pass - Jesus would come in 1844.

Either show us the document where this pre-1844 prediction was made, retract and apologize for your error, or we've nothing further to talk about.

 

[Phoneman777]

Thanks for your well thought out response. My opinion is that there is still one stone upon another as the sign Jesus gave has not occurred.

You could also say Jesus meant "...left one upon another as they were originally placed" like the rest of the us interpret that to mean, yes?

 

[Phoneman777]

That doesn't come from the bible. It's imaginary.

Sure it does, and is why the entire Protestant world believed and taught for over 3 centuries the Papacy is the First Beast of Rev 13 until for some reason a little over 100 years ago, "protestants" decided to stop protesting and join ranks with Jesuit Futurism and Jesuit Preterism.

 

[Phoneman777]

How exactly do you think someone can "keep the commandments of God"? Are you suggesting that you never break the commandments of God?

The mark of the beast is the spiritual opposite of the seal of God. This is a salvation issue. If you have the mark of the beast then you're not saved. Since when does scripture teach that keeping the sabbath on Saturday is required for salvation? Since never. And since when was keeping the sabbath on Saturday given as a command to the Gentiles?

How exactly can a husband go home to his own wife every night, except that he LOVES her, while other men cheat on their wives incessantly?

If we love Jesus, we'll keep His commandments". (John 14:15 KJV)

 

[The Light]

Mark Twain once said "Never argue with stupid people because they will drag you down to their level then beat you with experience".

Therefore, inadequacy need not be the reason at all for why a person chooses to end a discussion.

I usually find that people find a need to end the discussion because they can't deal with being wrong. That is truly the difference between us. If you can prove me wrong, it means I've learned something. That, to me, is a positive. I read where you threatened to block another poster. How will you learn anything when you block those that challenge your beliefs? That's a weakness, not a strength. You will never learn anything by taking your toys and going home. Defend what you believe, and if it is wrong.....change what you believe. Rest well.

 

[Timtofly]

Jesus said long ago that massive deception would characterize the last days, which is exactly what these Luciferians are planning to do, so if anything, what we see coming to pass should be cause for us to put MORE CONFIDENCE AND TRUST in God's Word, and nothing else. Now, let's dispense with your juvenile statement and focus on the issue at hand: The Luciferians who run the world claim the tumultuous chaos they've planned to unleash upon the world will cause Christians to become "disillusioned" - the question on the table is this:

Q. If post-tribbers already expect to have to endure this chaos and are prayerfully preparing to meet it, who is it that alone remains vulnerable to this "disillusionment"?

A. The pre-tribbers who expected to be up there by the time the dookey is hitting the proverbial fan down here. It's not a question of whether this will happen, but of whether pre-tribbers will swallow their pride and finally accept the post-trib message or fall victim to the Luciferian counterfeit Second Coming.

Or just accept Christians are already going through tribulation, and even to the point of death. So after this, the Second Coming will happen.

Those left at the Second Coming, will have to endure to the point of being beheaded. But they certainly are not the church enjoying Paradise.

 

[Timtofly]

The bottom line here is that Paul taught that a mass falling away from the faith would occur and the man of sin would be revealed BEFORE the day Christ returns and we're gathered to Him. And you're not accepting that.

Seems there would have to be a mass revival so people can fall away.

 

[Timtofly]

They will be physically killed. The reason it matters whether the sword is literal or symbolic is because some premils deny that 2 Peter 3:10-12 is referring to the day Christ returns because they say the destruction described in Revelation 19 isn't caused by fire. But, the literal method Christ will use to destroy His enemies when He returns is not given in Revelation 19, so that is not a valid argument to make against 2 Peter 3:10-12 and Revelation 19:11-21 being the same event.

Armageddon has no fire, because that is not the Second Coming. Armageddon is the last of the last of humanity on earth. The Second Coming happened more than 42 months before Armageddon. Amil forget the Day of the Lord is 1,000 years. But before it can really be declared a go, all this wicked dead flesh of Adam's descendants has to be cleaned up, and put in the trash bin.

 

[ewq1938]

Speaking of "Fail". You fail to understand that not every symbol in the book is explained and it does not tell us that every symbol is a symbol.

A sword is not fire from heaven. That is an obvious manipulation on the part of Amillennialism. It is not even in line with normal interpretation of symbolism.

You believe otherwise because you want to be spoon fed everything from scripture instead of having to use any spiritual discernment.

Likely this applies to you.

That's a lie. I have plenty of support and there's no bias. It is supported by other scripture that speaks of His return such as 2 Peter 3:10-12 and 2 Thess 1:7-10 which show Him destroying His enemies with fire.

2 Peter does not show Christ destroying his enemies with fire, nor is it even related to the second coming.

2 Thess is about the second coming but no fire is used against any enemy.

Are we allowed to use other scripture to help us understand the book of Revelation or are we supposed to read the book of Revelation in isolation from other scripture?

You rarely if ever cite Revelation. At least Premillennialists can cite and properly understand all related passages including the two you presented out of context. (neither show fire used to kill enemies)

It doesn't get any more laughable than thinking a symbolic sword can somehow be used in a literal way like a literal sword.

You are wrong. The laughable thing is changing the holy text from a sword to fire.

That's like thinking the beast is symbolic but the seven heads and ten horns are literal or something ludicrous like that.[

Which again shows ignorance of Revelation 17 which explains what those things are. You employ a strawman fallacy when you suggest Premills don't understand the beast and it's heads and horns are symbolic of other things. This shows your desperation for anything to show errors by Premills. You find none, so you invent some.

 

[ewq1938]

Sure it does

No, it doesn't. Show us anything from the bible about the mark being related to Sunday worship.

 

[Timtofly]

Yes the second coming is seen in "Many" parallel teachings in scripture, many show the coming in fire and final Judgement, others don't show this, however they are all the very same second coming

Yes Millennialist want to disregard the many scriptures that show the second coming in fire, and look towards a neutral coming to maintain the Zionist fairy tale teaching of a 1,000 year kingdom on this earth, where Jews rule the earth from Jerusalem

And Amil want to jam pack 28 events into less than 12 hours, including Satan's 42 months. Your tribulation is literally over before it can even start.

 

[Truth7t7]

That is not a future prediction, it is commentary on the past.

LAST CHANCE: You said EGW predicted - which means to declare the future before it comes to pass - Jesus would come in 1844.

Either show us the document where this pre-1844 prediction was made, retract and apologize for your error, or we've nothing further to talk about.

Matthew 18:21-22KJV
21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.

Correction to my post #1941 Below

Correction: Ellen G. White Followed The False Prediction Of William Miller In The 1844 Proclaimed Second Coming Of Jesus Christ

Quote Truth7t7 Post #1941 Below

You mean the false-prophetess (Ellen G. White) and her spiritism in self proclaimed 2,000 dreams and visions

The false prediction in the 1844 proclaimed second coming of Jesus Christ, let's cover that false prediction up and call it the (Investigative Judgement)

Perhaps her grave marking bearing the Occultism Egyptian Obelisk, straight out of Occultic Freemasonry

Jehovahs Witnesses founder,, (Charles Taze Russel) is buried under the Egyptian Pyramid and Capstone, also out of occultic Freemasonry

 

[Taken]

Where is this taught in scripture?

Luke 12:
[51] Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:

John.7
[43] So there was a division among the people because of him.

John 16:
[30] Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God.

Why do you think they would suffer His Wrath?

I don’t.

Do you think He is incapable of protecting His people

No.

on the earth while sending down wrath?

I believe CHRIST provides “His people” (Exclusively the Converted IN CHRIST, Exclusively Christ’s Church) by providing an escape FROM ALL Wrath.

(Non-Converted believers, Non-Believers IN Christ Jesus, Non-Believers in God, are subject to suffer, the Lambs Wrath, the Devils Wrath...and should they continue DURING the Tribulation to NOT submit to Believe, Shall ultimately suffer Gods Wrath/ Jew, Tribesman or Gentile.)

(Here is During the Tribulation, Men confessing Belief, soul saved, Body killed. Even the Tribulation and Wrath of the Lamb, is called Great Tribulation, not only the end, Vials.)
Rev 7:
[14] And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Luke 21
[36] Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Accounted Worthy TO Escape? WHO?
CHRISTS Church, “ie The Converted”.

Heb 2
[3] How shall we (men) escape, if we (men)neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;

It's only His final global wrath...

What about the Lambs Wrath? Rev 6: 1-16
What about the Devils Wrath? Rev 12:12
Again review...Rev 7:14

which will occur on the day Christ returns (2 Peter 3:10-13, 1 Thess 4:13-5:11, 2 Thess 1:7-10)

that would require us to be taken off of the earth in order to avoid it.

Precisely!

Review;
Matt 24. (A warning, A brief overview of coming Great Tribulation)
...Further knowledge about the coming Great Tribulation —->
Rev 6- Forward (Details of coming Great Tribulation)

Matt 24
[21] For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

This reveals the parallel to the First Great Tribulation (ie The Flood)

Who was Saved During the Flood?
How?
(By ESCAPE from on the Earth?
Or
By REMAINING on the Earth (as you suggest shall apply During the Last Great Tribulation?)

(I can show you the answer, if you can not find it in Scripture.)

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[farouk]

Luke 12:
[51] Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:

John.7
[43] So there was a division among the people because of him.

John 16:
[30] Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God.



I don’t.



No.



I believe CHRIST provides “His people” (Exclusively the Converted IN CHRIST, Exclusively Christ’s Church) by providing an escape FROM ALL Wrath.

(Non-Converted believers, Non-Believers IN Christ Jesus, Non-Believers in God, are subject to suffer, the Lambs Wrath, the Devils Wrath...and should they continue DURING the Tribulation to NOT submit to Believe, Shall ultimately suffer Gods Wrath/ Jew, Tribesman or Gentile.)

(Here is During the Tribulation, Men confessing Belief, soul saved, Body killed. Even the Tribulation and Wrath of the Lamb, is called Great Tribulation, not only the end, Vials.)
Rev 7:
[14] And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Luke 21
[36] Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Accounted Worthy TO Escape? WHO?
CHRISTS Church, “ie The Converted”.

Heb 2
[3] How shall we (men) escape, if we (men)neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;

@Taken It seems to me that the passages in Matthew 24 (and similarly Luke 21) about the wrath of of God on earth seem not to refer to the church, which by then will have been raptured.

What the church does indeed face is the general principle of tribulation, as in: "In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world" (John 16:33).