The Pre-Trib Rapture

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Naomi25

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I disagree, the Messianic tradition (Zionism) plays no part in prophecy fulfillment as claimed

The reversion back to Jewish customs and traditions is exactly the opposite of biblical teachings and admonition in many aspects

The star of David being one example, is nothing more than the occultic (Hexagram) carried back to Jerusalem from the Babylonian Captivity Acts 7:43, that's proudly displayed in Messianic gatherings

Judaism today is bound by the evils found in the Talmud and Kabbalah, the very reason Revelation 11:8 describes Jerusalem as Sodom and Egypt

Acts 7:43KJV
43 Yea, ye took up the tabernacle of Moloch, and the star of your god Remphan, figures which ye made to worship them: and I will carry you away beyond Babylon.

I think you might have mistaken me. I’m not in any way referring to traditional Jewish practices….I use ‘messianic’ Jews in the way that signifies that Jews…have accepted their Messiah, Christ. Which makes them Christians.
And Christians, I think you will agree, have a part in prophecy…as in…we look forward to it’s ultimate fulfilment.
 

Truth7t7

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I think you might have mistaken me. I’m not in any way referring to traditional Jewish practices….I use ‘messianic’ Jews in the way that signifies that Jews…have accepted their Messiah, Christ. Which makes them Christians.
And Christians, I think you will agree, have a part in prophecy…as in…we look forward to it’s ultimate fulfilment.
I fully understood your usage, and was shedding light on the Zionist "Messianic Movement" and their symbols used, specifically the Hexagram better known as the star "Remphan"

Jusaism is bound by the evil Rabbinical Talmud and occultic Kabbalah, Jerusalem is likened to Sodom and Egypt in Revelation 11:8 "Zionist "Messianic Movement" prayer shawls, stars of David or (Hexagrams), emulating Judaism?

No I'm not judging a man's salvation, but to emulate and follow traditions of that mentioned?

Give me Jesus, no strings attached!

In Love, Jesus Is The Lord
 
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Behold

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If anyone wants to notice this.......and you are "into" end times study.

Notice.

In REV Chapter 6, Jesus comes for His Church, and in Chapter 19, He comes back with His Bride/Church, Body of Christ.
So, where were all the born again from 6-19?

Now what is happening on earth?

Also, do not read into those verses ISRAEL as the body of Christ, and you will be way ahead of the rest.
 

marks

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If anyone wants to notice this.......and you are "into" end times study.

Notice.

In REV Chapter 6, Jesus comes for His Church, and in Chapter 19, He comes back with His Bride/Church, Body of Christ.
So, where were all the born again from 6-19?

Now what is happening on earth?

Also, do not read into those verses ISRAEL as the body of Christ, and you will be way ahead of the rest.
Is there anywhere besides in Paul's letters that speak of people of God as the "Body of Christ"? Paul, the Apostle to the Gentiles, not one of the 12?

I can't think of any, myself.

Much love!
 
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ewq1938

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666 is the mark of the beast.
 

Naomi25

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Here is one place:

Jeremiah 31:31-37 KJV
31) Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32) Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33) But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34) And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
35) Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36) If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37) Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.

I like to ask people, Did the sun come up today? Have you measured the sky? Then the seed of Israel remain a nation before God.

Much love!
I appreciate you posting this. But…I’m honestly left wondering at how you view this as only Israel centric. And by that I mean…only given to those who are ethnically Jews.
The ‘new covenant’ in which God ‘puts his law in their inward parts, writes it on their hearts’? Where ‘they will know me and I will forgive their iniquity and remember sin no more’…?
This new covenant is for all those who believe in Christ. For Jews AND Gentile believers. As I’ve tried to show, the NT repeatedly makes all those who participate in the New Covenant of Christ ONE body of believers.
Paul tells us that if we are in Christ, we are offspring of Abraham, heirs of promise.

So…this passage in Jeremiah…is for the ‘tree’ of believers. And as long as that tree…or body…exists, then this promise of Israel remains.
 

Naomi25

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There is a lot you've written and I want to read it all and respond. I really enjoy your clear and level presentation!

On this part above, I find this makes a good focal point in discussion.

Matthew 25:34-40 KJV
34) Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35) For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36) Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37) Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38) When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39) Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40) And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

Jesus sets these on His right, invites them into the kingdom, and gives the reason, Because I was hungry, and you gave me food, and so forth. He doesn't say, because you've trusted in Me, because you've been reborn, but He gives the reason, you cared for the needs of my brothers.

So, the question is, is this really the reason? Or is it something else, like, "this demonstrated their faith, and of course they are saved by faith." Well, yes, for whatever reason, they believed something that told them they had to do this.

Just like Abraham, we believed God's message, but God's message to us wasn't the same as His message to Abraham, that he would have so many descendants. That's what Abraham believed, and God justified Him. We believe in Jesus, God justifying us. These will believe something, and go on to do something, and it's the "doing" that is credited as the reason for their justification.

Matthew 25:46 KJV
46) And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

These shall "go . . . into life eternal." Had they not yet "passed from death into life"? These are some of the things I take note of, and pay attention to.

Much love!

I think, when we look at passages like Matt 25, we must understand them in the clear light of what other scripture teaches about justification. If we want to avoid the notion that scripture contradicts scripture, that is.

The NT is quite clear that salvation…our justification before God, is not of our works. Lest we boast that it is our doing in some way.
James, rather than contradicting this idea, grows it:

James 2:18
But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.


He is not saying we have the opportunity to seek justification on or through our own merits…by works. He is saying that true, believing faith that has resulted in our salvation…our justification before God, will ALWAYS be accompanied by good works. Not to earn a thing, but as an outpouring of the change that has happened within us.

So when we look at what Jesus is saying to the ‘sheep’ in Matt 25, we must, I believe, understand him to be telling them they had no fruit in their lives. Had they been saved, they would have done the things he said. It’s like in Matt 7:23 where he tells unbelievers to depart, because he ‘never knew them’. Truly knowing Christ…having the gift of redemption and having a heart change, will always lead to good works. Thus…any time these good works…or fruit, are vacant in a person’s life, then we can surmise that Christ ‘didn’t know them’.

But we must, I think, be very careful when talking about what and how people can receive justification before God. Too many Christians fall into or towards legalism as it is…it is wrong to suggest a person can earn merit of salvation.
 

Naomi25

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I'm not sure what you mean here. I believe all who are "in Christ" will be caught up, "in Christ" referring to being baptized into Christ, becoming a new creation. Are you thinking of "not ready Christians" or something like that?

Much love!

I am trying…perhaps miserably!…to describe how things will look ‘on the ground’, so to speak, if we follow Dispensational teaching logically. I do wish I could draw some pictures here…visuals are so helpful sometimes!

Here’s how I see it:
The NT teaches that there is a single tree. Made up of believers…both Jew and Gentile. It’s called the ‘church’, the ‘body of Christ’ and even referred to as the recipient of Abraham’s promises (offspring, heirs of promise).
Dispensationalists seem to believe that there is biblical evidence for a Rapture of this church (which means the ‘tree/body’ essentially looses it’s branches/members), but then there will be a time when people can still ‘come to Christ’. Both Jews and Gentiles. But they claim that during this time, even though folks are still saved by coming to Christ, the ‘tree/body’ metaphor no longer works. Jews and Gentiles will no longer be grafted onto that tree…they will be separate. Or, if we do stick with the tree/body metaphor, the tree/body must be separate from one another. Jews one side, Gentiles the other, but both still growing out of Christ.

My point…or question I suppose, is where do we see this in the NT? What makes us think that the ‘tree/body’ will be stripped but then have the opportunity to grow again, but in a different state (essential two trees growing from the same root..which is Christ).
Where do we see anything that suggests that people coming to Christ will be anything other than ‘the body of Christ’…which IS the Church? What makes us think the tree/body will be removed in ‘phase 1’…so to speak…but then ‘phase 2’ will then go ahead but with different parameters. Especially when Paul highlights that the current tree/body are Abraham’s offspring/heirs. Why do we even need ‘phase 2’ if ‘phase 1’ inherits all those promises?

I don’t think I’ve explained that very well…I’m having a crappy week and my thoughts are all over the shop. But hopefully you get my meaning.
 

Naomi25

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Hi @Naomi25 I think also if we remember that the church is a heavenly people (Ephesians 1) whereas Israel has earthly blessings (some in the OT have been justified by faith also), it can give a clearer picture of how Jews, Gentiles and the church of God (1 Corinthians 10.32) relate to Scripture's schemes for different people.
Hi Farouk!
That may make sense logically…but…I’m unsure it can be supported by scripture.
First…how do we reconcile that with Paul telling us (Gentiles) that we are Abraham’s offspring, if we are in Christ (Christ being the true ‘offspring’) and we are therefore ‘heirs of promise’? What have we inherited from Abraham through Christ?

Secondly…if it were fundamentally true that the Jews had a different destiny to Gentiles, still assuming that said destiny could only be reached through belief in Christ…why do we have Jewish believers NOW who are basically inheriting the Church’s “heavenly people” status? Should they not, even now, be inheriting an earthly blessing?
We don’t see that, however. All we see is the idea that IN Christ, two peoples have become one. And I just don’t see anything in the NT that supports the idea that a time will come when that ceases to be and suddenly blood matters again. That’s a little like reverting back to blood sacrifices in the temple when Christ has come, once for all.
 

Naomi25

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I fully understood your usage, and was shedding light on the Zionist "Messianic Movement" and their symbols used, specifically the Hexagram better known as the star "Remphan"

Jusaism is bound by the evil Rabbinical Talmud and occultic Kabbalah, Jerusalem is likened to Sodom and Egypt in Revelation 11:8 "Zionist "Messianic Movement" prayer shawls, stars of David or (Hexagrams), emulating Judaism?

No I'm not judging a man's salvation, but to emulate and follow traditions of that mentioned?

Give me Jesus, no strings attached!

In Love, Jesus Is The Lord
So….are you suggesting that any Jewish believer in Christ who still observes some Jewish traditions….is…ah…corrupted, I suppose, by those things?
 

Truth7t7

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So….are you suggesting that any Jewish believer in Christ who still observes some Jewish traditions….is…ah…corrupted, I suppose, by those things?
Do you believe a christian or church flying the occultic "inverted pentagram" and having it in a place of worship is corrupted?

The symbol used claimed to be the star of David, specifically the Hexagram better known as the star "Remphan" Acts 7:43, and is straight out of the occult, luggage brought back from Babylon

I clearly stated I wasn't judging a persons salvation, and once again the star "Remphan" has absolutely no place in christian observance or use "None"
 
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Taken

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The Pre-Trib Rapture
OP ^

Inanutshell ~
Expressly Applicable and Exclusive to Jesusangel calling up Christ’s prepared bride to meet their Lord in the air.

Warning ~
If ya ain’t prepared, don’t expect to hear Jesus’ angel calling!
If ya ain’t prepared, do expect to experience Satan’s visitation with power.
If ya ain’t prepared, do expect to feel the results of the Lamb of God shaking the Earth.

Wisdom ~
If ya ain’t prepared, go review the difference between Noah’s family being prepared, <—- Risen Up Above the face of the earth!
and the rest of the entire population unprepared! <—- Suffering doom and destruction.

Freewill ~
Choose you this day. Be prepared or not!

Glory to God,
Taken
 

Truther

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The pre trib rapture is the only scriptural doctrine per the NT as the resurrection is explained by Jesus and the Apostles.

Any "saints" left behind to face the great tribulation are not yet saints.

They are martyrs first, then called saints.

Death is pretty much inevitable under the man of sin.
 

ewq1938

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The pre trib rapture is the only scriptural doctrine per the NT as the resurrection is explained by Jesus and the Apostles.

Pretrib is not even found in the bible. It's a man made invention. The bible teaches a rapture after the GT.

The rapture is after the Great Tribulation has ended, after Christ's second coming begins, after the resurrection of the dead in Christ.

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.(second coming reference)
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord (second coming reference) shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven (second coming reference) with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (the resurrection of the dead in Christ)
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (the rapture)

The resurrection only happens at the second coming and the second coming can only happen after the trib has ended, and since the verses tell us the rapture happens AFTER the resurrection and second coming means these verses decisively prove the rapture is post-trib not pre-trib.

It's that simple.

Christ also spoke of the rapture but used the wording of saints being gathered together, and no surprise, placed it after the end of the Great Tribulation.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation (great tribulation has ended) of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven(second coming reference): and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming (second coming reference) in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect (*another way to speak of the Rapture) from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

*(also see 2nd Thessalonians 2:1 for the same language regarding the Rapture ie: a gathering)

Timing of the gathering/rapturing is exactly the same in these two passages. In both we have saved Christians being moved from one place to another and in both that happens after the tribulation has ended and when the second coming has commenced.
 
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Taken

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If anyone wants to notice this.......and you are "into" end times study.

Notice.

In REV Chapter 6, Jesus comes for His Church, and in Chapter 19, He comes back with His Bride/Church, Body of Christ.
So, where were all the born again from 6-19?

Now what is happening on earth?

Also, do not read into those verses ISRAEL as the body of Christ, and you will be way ahead of the rest.

There ARE Divisions of men. (In brief)
Divisions among ISRAEL (people).
Divisions among GENTILES (people).

God will NOT forsake ISRAEL, that is WITH Him.
God will NOT forsake GENTILES, that is WITH Him.
Israel/Gentiles that ARE WITH, Jesus, God will Bring WITH Him.
Israel/Gentiles that ARE IN, Christ the Lord Jesus will Bring WITH Him.

1 Thes 4: <— Dead, before, during Trib, Raise after 1,000 yr reign.
[14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.


1 Thes 4: <—- Lord Jesus Bringing with Him (before Tribulation)
[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

IN Christ is a converted man having committed by his own word.
^ Pre trib rapture.....after trib....1,000 yr reign....Christ’s Promised land Kingdom....last mortals occupy earth outside of Christ’s Kingdom.

IN Jesus is a believer, but not having committed by his own word.
Israel “WITH” God, God will bring with Him.
Gentile “WITH” God, God will bring with Him.
^ after 1,000 yr reign...Angelic battle...Evil angels defeated....Gods Kingdom entire heavens and entire earth...God resurrects His people in glory...People against the Lord God, raised in hell, judged, destroyed.
 

Taken

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Pretrib is not even found in the bible. It's a man made invention. The bible teaches a rapture after the GT.

Pre-tribulation is a man-made term, that expressly applies to A Biblical Teaching.

Tribulations occur all the time that negatively affect the population at large. Every catastrophic weather disturbance, every war, every oppression and attack against people for what ever reason is a tribulation.

Scripture gives us notice of A Historical GREAT Tribulation, CAUSED BY God Himself, and notice of another FUTURE GREAT Tribulation, CAUSED BY God Himself Sitting IN HIS Heavenly Throne.

The FIRST GREAT Tribulation....8 persons of the entire world population were SAVED from Destruction....Day by Day being RAISED UP ABOVE the Face of the Earth...where ALL THE DESTRUCTION was occurring.
LIFE of men Upon the Face of the Earth DIED.

For Thousands of Years...the entire growing world population has BEEN WARNED....God WILL CAUSE another, (and LAST), GREAT Tribulation to occur UPON the Face of the Earth. Bit by Bit, UNTIL the entire face of the Earth Suffers DESTRUCTION.
LIFE of men Upon the Face of the Earth SHALL DIE.

If you were Familiar with What God SENT and OFFERED to ALL of mankind 2,000+ years ago....You would KNOW, the ABSOLUTE Difference Between...
A man Converted “IN” Christ.....and ALL other men of the entire World Population.
A man Converted “IN” Christ, has Freely ALREADY “given” his “bodily” LIFE unto the Lord, and Accepted Gods GIFT of a saved soul and quickened spirit.

Do you SEE a difference....Between A man “freely choosing to lay down” His own bodily life.......or A man “waiting” for His bodily life to be Killed During the Future Great Tribulation?

God requires the LIFE of Every man.
The Life of Every man IS His BLOOD, which keeps his body alive.
A man can GIVE “his life” FREELY.
Or a man can WAIT until God Takes “his life”.

Which do you think...reveals a mans Greatest Love for God?
God Offered Every man Opportunity to “lay down their Life”, crucified with Christ....and Every man Who Chooses to “lay down their Life”, is gifted with forgiveness, restoration of their soul and quickening of their spirit....and PROMISED to NOT BE Subjected to the WRATH of God that SHALL “once again”, come upon the face of the Earth.
* AND What a man is called, who Accepts Gods Offering is expressly CALLED:
Converted “IN” Christ.
* AND What a man is promised, who Accepts Gods Offering is expressly TO NOT Suffer His Wrath.
* AND How a man SHALL NOT Suffer His Wrath, IS the SAME WAY Noah did not suffer His Wrath....Lifted up above the Face of the Earth while the Earth and it’s occupants ARE suffering Gods Wrath.

* Why is Gods Anger Kindling, building up, until God unleashes His Wrath Upon the Earth and its Occupants?
Scripture TOLD us in Noah’s Day.
Scripture TELLS us in the Days since the Great flood.

Ecc 1:
[9] The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.
[14] I have seen all the works that are done under the sun; and, behold, all is vanity and vexation of spirit.

Ecc 1:
[9] The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.

Gen 6:
[7] And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
[13] And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

Rom 1:
[18] For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

1 Thes 5:
[9] For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ...

Gen 7
[18] And the waters prevailed, and were increased greatly upon the earth; and the ark went upon the face of the waters.
[19] And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered.
[20] Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.

Have you ever looked 22 feet above the highest mountains, seen the clouds?
Nothing new...the Converted IN Christ are not subject to Wrath.
Nothing new...As Noah was lifted up off the face of the Earth, Safe IN the clouds, so also shall the Saved IN Christ be lifted up IN the clouds.

1 Thes 4:
[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up (Rapture, translated from Latin Raptus, ie carrying off) together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Hear, Read, Learn Gods Offering, Gods Promises, Gods Stipulations, WITH or WITHOUT Him.
 

Taken

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666 is the mark of the beast.

666 is the number of man.
Men rise up individual National governing powers over and oppressing that Nations population at large. Long history for centuries.
When you see the Worlds Nations converging into one World governing power over and oppressing the world population at large. The Great Re-set all World Nations “governing authorities “ are promoting....whoop whoop for the people at large...UGH!
The Man Beast has arrived. The Speech is Coming, Open ears, Put forward your hand they will MARK you as belonging to them.
 

ewq1938

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666 is the number of man.
Men rise up individual National governing powers over and oppressing that Nations population at large. Long history for centuries.
When you see the Worlds Nations converging into one World governing power over and oppressing the world population at large. The Great Re-set all World Nations “governing authorities “ are promoting....whoop whoop for the people at large...UGH!
The Man Beast has arrived. The Speech is Coming, Open ears, Put forward your hand they will MARK you as belonging to them.


I posted that because it was post number 666.
 
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