The Pre-Trib Rapture

[n2thelight]

This is completely incorrect. It is the Church which has both Jews and Gentiles in one Body with the Gentiles grafted in. But when the "fullness of the Gentiles" is fulfilled (the full number of Gentiles within the Church), then the Church is complete and raptured, and God resumes His dealings directly with Israel through Christ. This is after the Second Coming. And it is all spelled out in Romans 11. Therefore redeemed (saved) and restored Israel is DISTINCT from the Church and will remain on earth within "Greater Israel" in the future.

Israel is the Church
God divorced Israel, they must be grafted back on to their own tree ,through Christ . Please tell me what's the distinction ?

 

[Enoch111]

Israel is the Church
God divorced Israel, they must be grafted back on to their own tree ,through Christ . Please tell me what's the distinction ?

The distinction is that redeemed and restored Israel is the twelve tribes of Jacob residing in Greater Israel (from the Nile to the Euphrates). The following tribes will each have their portion of land allotted to them: Dan, Asher, Naphtali, Manasseh, Ephraim, Rueben, Judah, Levi, Benjamin, Simeon, Issachar, Zebulon, and Gad. Joseph is represented by Manasseh and Ephraim, since Jacob gave him a double portion (Gen 48:22).

In contrast the New Jerusalem in Heaven is the eternal abode of the Church. It will remain a heavenly body. Jesus said "In my father's house are many mansions" and Abraham looked for city which has foundations, whose Builder and Maker is God.

 

[n2thelight]

The distinction is that redeemed and restored Israel is the twelve tribes of Jacob residing in Greater Israel (from the Nile to the Euphrates). The following tribes will each have their portion of land allotted to them: Dan, Asher, Naphtali, Manasseh, Ephraim, Rueben, Judah, Levi, Benjamin, Simeon, Issachar, Zebulon, and Gad. Joseph is represented by Manasseh and Ephraim, since Jacob gave him a double portion (Gen 48:22).

In contrast the New Jerusalem in Heaven is the eternal abode of the Church. It will remain a heavenly body. Jesus said "In my father's house are many mansions" and Abraham looked for city which has foundations, whose Builder and Maker is God.

So there's gonna be two kingdoms, one in Heaven and on earth is that what you're saying ?

Oh and what would you have me do with the below verse

Revelation 21:2 "And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband."

Revelation 21:3 "And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God."

Does the above not state that New Jerusalem comes down to earth?

 

[Enoch111]

So there's gonna be two kingdoms, one in Heaven and on earth is that what you're saying ?

The way to look at it is that there is one Kingdom of God which will encompass both Heaven and earth (as well as the universe) after it is established on earth.

 

[n2thelight]

The way to look at it is that there is one Kingdom of God which will encompass both Heaven and earth (as well as the universe) after it is established on earth.

Yet scripture states that God will be here on earth in other words Heaven will be here on earth ,so again they can't be a place for each

 

[GRACE ambassador]

The pre trib rapture theory is wishful thinking at best.

Another, G2R, claims it is a "fairy tale," and now it is "wishful thinking"?!:

"At Best" Scriptural Evidence has been presented, here: #554 and here: #565

 

[GRACE ambassador]

My point with the ‘separating’ was, that instead of applying similar methodology to all the references to Christ’s return, Dispensationalists separate them into two events….

And I have not yet heard a satisfactory reason as to why they must read it this way.

Precious friend, maybe These will be "the satisfactory reason," Rightly
Divided (2 Timothy 2:15)?:

here: #554 and here: #565

GRACE And Peace...

 

[Behold]

People still don't seem to understand that there are two tribulations spoken of in scripture, one of satan which is the first followed by Christ which is the second
g

If you end up in the Great Tribulation, then you are not born again.
That is the only reason you would be there, if it starts tomorrow.
The Tribulation is not for the Born again, Bride.

Its for these...

2 Thessalonians 1:8

"""""in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who odo not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.""""


Notice..." who do not know GOD, and on those who DO NOT OBEY THE GOSPEL">

What is to obey the Gospel?
Its to believe it and be born again........so, all those who are being judged are = not born again.

So, if you end up there, you are not born again, and that is why you didn't meet Jesus in the SKY, before the Great Trib started.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

This is completely incorrect. It is the Church which has both Jews and Gentiles in one Body with the Gentiles grafted in.

This is correct, but opponents of this thought are falsely into wrong think, even if people have well meaning intentions its not good to teach this improperly, it leads others into wrong think also.

It is God/Jesus who who are our life in all things. We all have life because of the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ, but there is a difference between the Church and Israel, not in how we come unto God via Faith in the Promised sacrifice/Jesus. The Jews will be a part of the Wheat that grows together with the tares until the very end. They are married to God the Father, the Old Testament tells us that, as does Revelation 14:1, The Fathers name is written into the 144,000's (which simply means ALL Israel) head.

The Church is the Bride of Christ, God gave us a likeness unto this with Jacob and his two brides, the preferred bride Rachel and the alternative bride in Leah. The reason we know everyone comes unto God by faith alone in Christ Jesus is that Jews can be in the Church and can be married unto the Father, according to when they come unto God via Faith. Abraham was also justified by Faith alone. As are the Church. Both the same, but Abraham was married unto God the Father, the Church are married unto Christ Jesus, so what's the DIFFERENCE? Only the calling, we are called to go unto the whole world and Evangelize the whole world, then as Matt. 24:14 says, the END WILL COME (70th week). Israel is called unto Gid for a different purpose, the Kingdom Nation is Israel, Jesus will rule in Israel/Jerusalem for 1000 years, they are called for a different purpose, but both Jews and Gentiles in the exact same manner, by Faith alone, and they both are Redeemed in the exact same manner, but Christ Jesus' blood.

So, Christ is married to both Jews and Gentiles (Church) but like you say, the Jews will be grafted back into the family but only when the repent as Paul says in Rom. 11, when Israel BELIEVES AGAIN they will be grafted back in, Jesus doesn't just show up and "SAVE" Israel, they repent before the Day of the Lord as both Malachi 4:5 and Zechariah 13:8-9 both show us thereby 1/3 of all the Jews are saved and hey will thus be AL Israel (who repent). Gd doesn't save every Jew, but Israel as a Nation for His names sake. Thus ALL Israel, simply means Israel the Kingdom and the seed of Abraham is preserved for God's sake, the Kingdom era begins at the Rapture. Amen.

 

[marks]

Can you show me where Paul says that Israel will be nationally designated in the future?
Interested to see if I’ve missed something.
Thanks.

Maybe I misspoke . . . I had actually been thinking God makes it clear, in other passages than Paul, but just the same, I'll think to see if I'm aware of where Paul makes those statements.

Much love!

 

[marks]

But….how is that a separate ‘plan’?
If their future salvation is just them accepting Christ as Messiah, that means that all that’s happening is that they’re being grafted back onto the tree. Which is the body of Christ. Which is the church.
Which fundamentally means that we are all the same ‘plan’ and there’s not a distinction between the two. The only real distinction is time. But…that’s something quite different from how many Dispensationalists will say that God has a ‘separate plan for Israel’.

I think there is a lot in how different people think differently when speaking of "a separate plan". So then, God's plan for me was to discover the truth through the prophecies, and it was God's plan for my sister to discover the truth through a caring pastor. We don't end up with separate salvations, but God's methods of getting us there were different.

In the OT, God chose Israel out from the rest, and His plan was different for Israel then for the rest. But it's still Creator God rescuing His creation.

It may be of interest to you to look at exactly how the Scripture speaks of the "body of Christ". And the ekklesia. These things are not everywhere in the Bible. Just like legal observance/sacrifice is not everywhere in the Bible. And righteousness based on gentile treatment of Jews isn't throughout. Neither is image/beast worship or MOB on pain of death. These are all specific to certain time periods. For the redeemed, all conclude with new life given by God, His gift received in faith.

Abraham's faith was that God would give more descendants than all the stars he could see. All of us are to simply believe God when He speaks to us. But He says different things sometimes.

The OT faithful are not included Biblically in the assembly, the ekklesia. And there are certain ones who are declared to be "in Christ". There are certain ones to whom it is promised to be given land grants. The ekklesia is not given those land grants. Same God, Same Salvation, Same Savior, saved by grace through faith, all of us who are saved. But some God brings this way, some God brings that way.

You are correct, I think, they are grafted back into the tree, to be nourished by the root that is Christ. Time, and Method are the differences.

Much love!

 

[marks]

I’m aware of the debate. But…I think it’s mostly moot. Let’s say that the tree itself is Christ. Or that the nourishing root is Abraham and not Christ…do we not still end up in the same place?
Consider: if Christ is the tree…all that believe in him are grafted on. Romans 11 tell us it is faith that makes one grafted to the tree. We know that Abrahams faith is what saved him. And we know our faith in Christ is what saves us. So…still we might say, like Paul, that in Christ…in faith, we are Abrahams offspring and heirs of promise.

However, if Abraham is the root, it is still his faith in God that has made ‘the dough holy’. And we are still grafted onto his tree as his offspring, following him in faith.

So…basically the result is the same. We share with Abraham both faith and promise….through our adoption into Christ.

I think it's a few places in the Bible, that God gathers together all things in Christ. That all things in heaven and earth are redeemed in Christ. Something like that, I don't remember the exact wording right now.

Yes, we all end up alive with God in grace and mercy, redeemed eternally. But some came to Him through the Law Covenant. Some come through the preaching of Christ, and trusting Him. We're told the time will come when those who come will come through martyrdom, and enduring tribulation, and that some who will be declared righteous will be declared so because of their works.

None of these differences change what God is doing on the macro sense, He is restoring us back to Him. But He has His ways.

Much love!

 

[marks]

One ‘follows’ a teaching…or subscribes to it, or believes it is most accurate.

Or, it best describes what I find in the Bible, even though the term seems to be vastly misunderstood by a great many people.

Much love!

 

[GRACE ambassador]

Yes, and thank you for that. I am not making a generalization of all pre tribbers, only some.

And I have shown ample evidence for the pre wrath rapture here as well.

Your Very Welcome. And, Thank you - I will have to examine the ample evidence shown...

When you actually start putting two and two together you will see when the rapture takes place... No need to invent another group of believers (Tribulation saints) as so many pretribbers have to do.

To begin, have you not found yet that God Has TWO Different programs?:

one for HIS earthly people, Israel, And,
The Other For HIS Heavenly Body Of CHRIST? ie:
-----------------
God's Prophetic Program, Under LAW, gospel of the kingdom (past/future)

(1) Concerns a kingdom: a political organization
(Daniel_2:44; Matthew_6:10 KJB!)

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That DIFFER!” {online}:

God's Revelation Of The Mystery, Under The Gospel Of The GRACE Of God!
(Current = “But NOW!” Romans_3:21, 7:6, 16: 26; Ephesians_2:13 et al KJB!):

(1) Concerns A Body, HIS Church; a Living Organism
(1_Corinthians_12:12, 27; Ephesians_4:12-16 KJB!)

Prophecy:
(2) The kingdom to be established on earth
(Jeremiah_23:5; Matthew_6:10!)
RDf:

The Mystery:
(2) The Body {Church} Given a position in Heaven!
(Ephesians_1:3, 2:5-6; Colossians_3:1-3 KJB!)

3) - 19)...
------------
Or: are these TWO Different groups "invented"?

Partial study Borrowed from:
"Distinctions" Of God's prophecy vs MYSTERY!

GRACE and Peace...

 

[Curtis]

Another, G2R, claims it is a "fairy tale," and now it is "wishful thinking"?!:

"At Best" Scriptural Evidence has been presented, here: #554 and here: #565

That’s rig(t. Every single proof text pre tribbers use is out of context.

 

[marks]

Basically the idea is that every scholar and clued in bible reader understands that when we read the Gospel accounts, we combine them. Every gospel is slightly different, yes? But…just like police would expect witness statements to be different and not identical, the FACT that the gospel accounts are slightly different actually gives them more credibility for being truthful.
Knowing that, when we read them, we combine the different retelling of certain events to gain a…more full…picture of what might have happened.

Right! Now there is an entirely different discussion. The Gospels form their own genre of literature unduplicated anywhere. These are the Good News of Jesus Christ, four books written with the purpose of showing our Savior, so we can be saved. There is nothing else like them in the world.

Of course the 3 synoptic Gospels, as they are called. Only one claims to set the events in order, I think, being Luke. John's Gospel is 7 miracles, 7 sermons, I forget how it lays out at the moment, but I don't think his intent was to put everything in sequence. Over half his Gospel is Jesus' final days. "This is written so that you will believe", not to show the calender entries of Jesus' ministry.

My point with the ‘separating’ was, that instead of applying similar methodology to all the references to Christ’s return, Dispensationalist separate them into two events….

And I have not yet heard a satisfactory reason as to why they must read it this way. I know, as a Dispensationalist you would say that the text requires you to read it that way, but I disagree.

I believe in looking at each for what it says. I find each of us have different levels of tolerance for perceived conflicts. This word or that word is used. They are different words, are they intended to say the same thing in different ways, or to say two different things? Some say the opening of the seals show the same things as the pouring of the bowls, and other say they are different. Some compare similarities and others look at the differences.

In showing the rapture contrasted to the gathering of the Jews, I find the text reads that way. To me there isn't any kind of mental gymnastics, but for me, there is an awful lot I think I'd have to ignore to see the rapture of the church in the gathering of the elect when Jesus.

One Gospel says there was 1 man living in the tombs in the Gaderenes, another Gospel says there were two men living in the tombs. So we know there were two, because you can have one, and also another, but you cannot have 1 but not another, while still having 2.

The Gospel says that Jesus sends His angels to gather His chosen, and then that the nations are gathered, including righteous and unrighteous. Where is the church there? In the gathering of the chosen? Or gathering of the righteous and unrighteous gentiles? If in the chosen, then how do you have righteous gentiles? If in the righteous gentiles, why are the declared based on works?

And considering the OT has specific prophecies of this very thing, showing Israel being regathered, then the Gentiles gathered to be judged, how am I not just following what the Bible says?

I’ll give you two examples that I hear frequently from Dispensationalists for ‘separating’ the returns that I find unconvincing. The first is “the first time Jesus comes in the clouds and the second time his feet touch down”.

I don't speak this way myself. But I think this is more just trying to be descriptive of their view.

The second example I find unconvincing is “the first time Jesus comes FOR his bride, the second time he comes WITH his bride”. The idea here being that some verses that speak of Christ’s return describe an army in white behind him. Dispensationalists claim these are the previously raptured church members.
I find this reason to separate the events lacking because….do we NEED a rapture for Christ to have an army of faithful? We’ve had all of history, but especially the last 2000 years where Christians have died and gone to be with Christ. We KNOW they’re already there, waiting to return with him and then receive their new bodies. So why would we need to force into the text that the church must be raptured pre-trib for this to be fulfilled? Biblically…it doesn’t.

Again, to me, this is more descriptive of their view, rather than giving the Biblical reasons for it.

The armies of heaven could be angels, or angels and men, or . . . Personally I think there is good cause to think men and angels come from heaven with Jesus, but I'd want to get to specific passages.

The kinds of dispensational arguments I more hear, and consider, give particular passages and show how they relate to other passages.

My point being, Dispensationalists tend to read into the text what they want to see in order to support two second comings.

Well, I disagree. I think just anyone can and does do this. Myself, I've found the other rapture views to be irreconcilable to the Scriptures.

And I think if we’re being honest about the texts in question, and the exegetical approach in reading them…then we must question those interpretations.

We need to look at specific passages, at which time, if we will follow through the discussion, we will find which words we do not regard the same.

Much love!

 

[marks]

The pre trib rapture theory is wishful thinking at best.

Thank you!

Much love!

 

[Curtis]

This is correct, but opponents of this thought are falsely into wrong think, even if people have well meaning intentions its not good to teach this improperly, it leads others into wrong think also.

It is God/Jesus who who are our life in all things. We all have life because of the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ, but there is a difference between the Church and Israel, not in how we come unto God via Faith in the Promised sacrifice/Jesus. The Jews will be a part of the Wheat that grows together with the tares until the very end. They are married to God the Father, the Old Testament tells us that, as does Revelation 14:1, The Fathers name is written into the 144,000's (which simply means ALL Israel) head.

The Church is the Bride of Christ, God gave us a likeness unto this with Jacob and his two brides, the preferred bride Rachel and the alternative bride in Leah. The reason we know everyone comes unto God by faith alone in Christ Jesus is that Jews can be in the Church and can be married unto the Father, according to when they come unto God via Faith. Abraham was also justified by Faith alone. As are the Church. Both the same, but Abraham was married unto God the Father, the Church are married unto Christ Jesus, so what's the DIFFERENCE? Only the calling, we are called to go unto the whole world and Evangelize the whole world, then as Matt. 24:14 says, the END WILL COME (70th week). Israel is called unto Gid for a different purpose, the Kingdom Nation is Israel, Jesus will rule in Israel/Jerusalem for 1000 years, they are called for a different purpose, but both Jews and Gentiles in the exact same manner, by Faith alone, and they both are Redeemed in the exact same manner, but Christ Jesus' blood.

So, Christ is married to both Jews and Gentiles (Church) but like you say, the Jews will be grafted back into the family but only when the repent as Paul says in Rom. 11, when Israel BELIEVES AGAIN they will be grafted back in, Jesus doesn't just show up and "SAVE" Israel, they repent before the Day of the Lord as both Malachi 4:5 and Zechariah 13:8-9 both show us thereby 1/3 of all the Jews are saved and hey will thus be AL Israel (who repent). Gd doesn't save every Jew, but Israel as a Nation for His names sake. Thus ALL Israel, simply means Israel the Kingdom and the seed of Abraham is preserved for God's sake, the Kingdom era begins at the Rapture. Amen.

Israel was divorced by God in Jeremiah 3:8, which is what ended the old covenant.

The,144,000 are not all of Israel that will be saved. There are many more.

Paul was clear that most of Israel at this time has not gotten righteousness, and are unsaved:

Rom 10:1 Brothers, my heart's desire and prayer to God for them is that they may be saved.

Rom 10:2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge.

Rom 10:3 For, being ignorant of the righteousness of God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness.

Act 13:45 But when the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy and began to contradict what was spoken by Paul, reviling him.

Act 13:46 And Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly, saying, “It was necessary that the word of God be spoken first to you. Since you thrust it aside and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles.

 

[marks]

That’s rig(t. Every single proof text pre tribbers use is out of context.

Meanwhile, I posit that as a pre-tribber, I'm the one who will interpret in context, and faithful to what is said.

Much love!

 

[David H.]

To begin, have you not found yet that God Has TWO Different programs?:

one for HIS earthly people, Israel, And,
The Other For HIS Heavenly Body Of CHRIST? ie:

Let's begin here.... during this dispensation there is the church, The question is when does the church age end, and does God deal with Israel and the church at the same time? This is known as the "same time problem". Although I do not agree with the exact timeline this video explains this explains the problem with this assumption, and how pretribbers contradict themselves with this belief.