The (potential) Treachery of Doctrine > My way, or the highway >

[St. SteVen]

God so loved the world that He gave His only Son, that whosoever would believe in Him would have eternal life.

Not everyone has had the "opportunity" to hear. What's the population of China?
And those you tell are put at terrible risk. If they reject the "free gift" they will be incinerated. Right?
The wide and narrow gate claim indicates that the vast majority will be toast. (few will find it) ???
A pointless game if the wide and narrow gate is in reference to our eternal destiny.

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[St. SteVen]

You say you don't know which viewpoint is right.......which is funny because it's obvious from the slant of all your questions which one you favour and are trying to influence others to.

Are you unwilling to take a stand for fear it will interfere with "unity"? In which case that would be putting "unity" before Truth.

No, I didn't mean to convey that I don't have a preference.
I personally reject Damnationism and Annihilationism.

However, all three views are biblical and contradictory. Everyone chooses their own view.
I am only here to educate about a view that has been suppressed by the church.

A family "crisis" led me away from Damnationism. (eternal conscious torment)

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[St. SteVen]

Everlasting punishment.....couldn't that just mean there is no coming back from it (death)? That it is permanent for those who remain outside of Christ? Jesus said, "Fear not he who can only kill the body, but fear Him who can destroy both body and soul in hell." And then in the end death and hell itself will be thrown into the lake of God's consuming fire, ending this present order of things. (This is why there will be no more death and no more tears of mourning or pain in the new heavens/earth when only what can't be "shaken" remains, ie, the spiritual heavenly realm.) As I understand it.

Everlasting punishment could mean a lot of things. Worth discussing.
Here is how I think it will work.

Everyone who has knees to bow and a tongue to speak, in heaven and on earth and under the earth (in the realm of the dead), will whole-heartedly, and without reservation, acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord. No one can say that “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit. If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” you will be saved. Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. (the reason for the bodily resurrection) Scriptural support below.

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says,
“Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart
that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Romans 14:9
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that
he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11 from Strong's Concordance
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).

Further reading: Isaiah 45:23; Romans 14:11; Revelation 15:4

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[Lizbeth]

The result = tens of thousands of denominations.
Which one found the "truth"?

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First of all Jesus never said this would all be neat and tidy and wrapped up with a bow. No, on the contrary, He said He is sending us out as sheep among wolves. This is a war, and war is a messy business. Our faith gets tested and tried, so we are presented with things we need to overcome, in the sovereign wisdom of God.

Those that are in the spirit with spiritual understanding and comparing spiritual with spiritual in scripture....since it is the Holy Spirit leading us into all truth, not the carnal mind......have not tended to disagree on the foundational truths of the gospel....the pure milk of the word. (At least not up until recent years as we are nearing the end and deception/delusion is ramping up and taking souls captive.)

But there are further things, meatier truths of the word, that depend on growth though that we gain understanding of as we grow (growing up into the Head which is Christ). The main problem with Christian denominations that I see (if they are Christian) hasn't been about disagreeing on foundational truths of the faith so much as that each one emphasises different things...often at the expense or neglect of other truths, all of which leads to an imbalance which can take people off track.

 

[St. SteVen]

First of all Jesus never said this would all be neat and tidy and wrapped up with a bow. No, on the contrary, He said He is sending us out as sheep among wolves. This is a war, and war is a messy business. Our faith gets tested and tried, so we are presented with things we need to overcome, in the sovereign wisdom of God.

That seems to be a weak or disjointed comparison from my POV.
If the essential gospel message is not "neat and tidy and wrapped up with a bow", what gospel are you preaching?
Living out the gospel is another story, of course.

Those that are in the spirit with spiritual understanding and comparing spiritual with spiritual in scripture....since it is the Holy Spirit leading us into all truth, not the carnal mind......have not tended to disagree on the foundational truths of the gospel....the pure milk of the word. (At least not up until recent years as we are nearing the end and deception/delusion is ramping up and taking souls captive.)

Evangelicalism (and Catholicism, in their own way) have codified their doctrines, which stand in stark contrast on many points.
Protestantism in general lands somewhere in between. Even surrendering to a nominal brand of Christianity. (a form of godliness)

But there are further things, meatier truths of the word, that depend on growth though that we gain understanding of as we grow (growing up into the Head which is Christ). The main problem with Christian denominations that I see (if they are Christian) hasn't been about disagreeing on foundational truths of the faith so much as that each one emphasises different things...often at the expense or neglect of other truths, all of which leads to an imbalance which can take people off track.

My journey has taken me away from the institutional church and closer to Christ/God.
Most don't understand the track I am on and make sweeping generalizations to disparage me.
I still attend church with my wife and see value in Christian community.
But I reject a considerable amount of doctrine that I hear there.

I'm not there to argue with anyone and I don't want to be "fixed".
I consider myself to be mature in my faith. I was even elected as Elder in the church I grew up in. (40+ yrs ago)
Not to brag, but immature Christians typically don't end up elected to leadership.

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[Lizbeth]

Not everyone has had the "opportunity" to hear. What's the population of China?
And those you tell are put at terrible risk. If they reject the "free gift" they will be incinerated. Right?
The wide and narrow gate claim indicates that the vast majority will be toast. (few will find it) ???
A pointless game if the wide and narrow gate is in reference to our eternal destiny.

[

You are always arguing against God's word and now are calling it all a pointless game. You aren't actually a Christian then, but a devotee of your own religion. One must be born of the Spirit in order to have spiritual understanding and enter and see His kingdom. The natural man cannot perceive the things of God. Ask, seek and knock my friend. Lay down what you think you know and just ask for understanding. I love this verse:

Act 17:27
That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

Everyone has been given life on this temporal planet. It all has an expiry date, that is a fact of life. And man's expiry is due to his own fault. God doesn't owe eternal life to any man or beast. If we just start with that understanding we'll stop accusing Him of being unrighteous. What is man that God is mindful of him? As the bible also says, man is like the beasts that perish.

But the Lord has graciously made a way that some might inherit eternal life. And there is only one way for that to happen...one has to be in Christ to partake of His resurrection to eternal life. Jesus is the Ark that saves us from the "flood" when it comes, and it is coming for everyone.

He will save all who are foreknown by Him...not one who are foreknown by Him will be lost. He will save all who are His, through a witness or a preacher or through a dream or vision or by direct revelation. Man is without excuse because what may be known of God can be seen in creation. So even if there are those who perish without hearing the spoken gospel, it is only because their hearts weren't "feeling after him" and the Lord foreknew they wouldn't receive it even if they did hear it. If it appears the Lord is unjust we have to know it is only because WE are lacking understanding.

 

[Lizbeth]

If the essential gospel message is not "neat and tidy and wrapped up with a bow", what gospel are you preaching?

The fundamental gospel message is plain and clear - repent or perish - meaning return to the Lord through Christ - but it is always under attack, and the journey can be a messy one.

 

[Lizbeth]

Everlasting punishment could mean a lot of things. Worth discussing.
Here is how I think it will work.

Everyone who has knees to bow and a tongue to speak, in heaven and on earth and under the earth (in the realm of the dead), will whole-heartedly, and without reservation, acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord. No one can say that “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit. If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” you will be saved. Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. (the reason for the bodily resurrection) Scriptural support below.

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says,
“Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart
that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Romans 14:9
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that
he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11 from Strong's Concordance
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).

Further reading: Isaiah 45:23; Romans 14:11; Revelation 15:4

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By faith. If they acknowledge Christ by faith they will be saved. Everyone will acknowledge Him by sight when they are being judged by Him. But it will be too late then. Like the rich man in hell that Jesus spoke about who saw the truth too late and even wanted to warn his brothers but couldn't.

 

[St. SteVen]

You are always arguing against God's word and now are calling it all a pointless game. You aren't actually a Christian then, but a devotee of your own religion. One must be born of the Spirit in order to have spiritual understanding and enter and see His kingdom. The natural man cannot perceive the things of God. Ask, seek and knock my friend. Lay down what you think you know and just ask for understanding.

More misunderstandings of my motives. No surprise. If I am not in lock-step with others they call foul.
I disagree with scriptural interpretations, not with the Bible. I like the Bible. I use it every day. - LOL

In reference to the narrow and broad way... (destruction) it seems VERY wrong to equate that to our eternal destiny.
It must refer to consequences in the here and now. Otherwise it means God is making sport of our destiny. (few there be that find it) ???

A cruel puzzle game with high-stakes for the unfortunate players. The majority of whom will lose. (be destroyed) ???

Matthew 7:13-14 NIV
“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.
14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

He will save all who are foreknown by Him...not one who are foreknown by Him will be lost. He will save all who are His, through a witness or a preacher or through a dream or vision or by direct revelation. Man is without excuse because what may be known of God can be seen in creation. So even if there are those who perish without hearing the spoken gospel, it is only because their hearts weren't "feeling after him" and the Lord foreknew they wouldn't receive it even if they did hear it. If it appears the Lord is unjust we have to know it is only because WE are lacking understanding.

Ah yes. Predestination and the Elect of God.
The flip side of that coin is the majority that will be predestined to hell. (destruction) God chooses?
There is a better plan.

1 Corinthians 15:22-24 NIV
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.
24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father
after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.


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[St. SteVen]

The fundamental gospel message is plain and clear - repent or perish - meaning return to the Lord through Christ - but it is always under attack, and the journey can be a messy one.

Repentance is often misunderstood. Please weigh in on this topic. Thanks.

Thoughts about confession and repentance - not the same thing

I have observed that the terms confession and repentance are often misunderstood. The disconnect seems to be about the term confession. The term repent, or repented is used where confession is intended. - "Did you repent of your sins?" Instead of, "Did you confess your sins?" - "I...

www.christianityboard.com

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[St. SteVen]

By faith. If they acknowledge Christ by faith they will be saved. Everyone will acknowledge Him by sight when they are being judged by Him. But it will be too late then. Like the rich man in hell that Jesus spoke about who saw the truth too late and even wanted to warn his brothers but couldn't.

Were those who knew Christ when he walked the earth disqualified because they could see him?

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[St. SteVen]

Like the rich man in hell that Jesus spoke about who saw the truth too late and even wanted to warn his brothers but couldn't.

The Rich Man was hoping his brothers could end up on the other side of the Great Chasm.
What did Abraham identify as the problem?

Luke 16:25 NIV
“But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things,
while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony.

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[St. SteVen]

You are always arguing against God's word and now are calling it all a pointless game. You aren't actually a Christian then, but a devotee of your own religion.

Do we measure maturity by personal KNOWLEDGE, or by personal TRANSFORMATION ?

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[St. SteVen]

By faith. If they acknowledge Christ by faith they will be saved. Everyone will acknowledge Him by sight when they are being judged by Him. But it will be too late then. Like the rich man in hell that Jesus spoke about who saw the truth too late and even wanted to warn his brothers but couldn't.

It doesn't always work to superimpose evangelicalism onto the scriptures.
The story of the Rich Man and Lazarus is a good example of how that DOESN'T work.

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[Taken]

The (potential) Treachery of Doctrine > My way, or the highway >

Doctrines…are the Basics of what ANY individual AGREES WITH….”OR” AGREES TO ABIDE by, According to the Doctrine.

Doctrines…are devised, are written, are many times “revised” or “updated”.

A Doctrine….TYPICALLY….Has A BRIEF, FIXED Objective Principle and Standard…
Examples:
A Set of Commands
A Constitution
A Charter
A Canon

Thereafter….rules, laws, statutes, regulations, “should”, fall under, the LIMITATIONS, set forth in the …. Commands, Constitution, Charter, Canon, etc.

Regardless OF What…the Commands, Constitution, Charter, Canon….IS SPECIFICALLY “established FOR”…
* EXAMPLE…A religion, A denomination, A nation, A community, A town, A city, A county, A neighborhood, A business, A home….
* There WILL BE….those INCLUDED and those EXCLUDED….expressly by, through, of Individuals FREEWILL. (Ya okay, excluding those under the “guardianship” of an other.)

* NO doubt…SOME individuals WILL Freely choose to “JOIN” a ….religion, domination, a nation, community, etc…..BUT THEN … NOT DO, BELIEVE, ADHERE, as they CLAIMED, “when then joined”….

* And YES, that results IN Corruption.

* ONLY ONE Offers, by, through, of His Authority and Power, TO Use His OWN Authority and Power, TO KEEP, an Earthly man ADHERENT, TO His WAY….and HE ALONE is the Lord God Almighty.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Lizbeth]

Do we measure maturity by personal KNOWLEDGE, or by personal TRANSFORMATION ?

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God's word is a lamp unto our feet and light unto our path. As another poster rightly said, which you ignored, we need knowledge and transformation both. Talking about knowledge/understanding on a spiritual level which contributes to our transformation and growth.

 

[Lizbeth]

No, I didn't mean to convey that I don't have a preference.

Funny that isn't what you SAID in the video. What you SAID was that you didnt' know which viewpoint is the right one. I don't find you very transparent about what you believe. You spend all your time asking questions and saying very little. That comes across as slippery to me.

If you feel you have something to teach then why don't you do it in the open, and let's examine it in light of the whole counsel of God? or are you afraid of the light?

 

[Piers Plowman]

Does Romans 14:5 allow a degree of subjectivism-- i.e., "my way"?

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
Do we measure maturity by personal KNOWLEDGE, or by personal TRANSFORMATION ?

God's word is a lamp unto our feet and light unto our path. As another poster rightly said, which you ignored, we need knowledge and transformation both. Talking about knowledge/understanding on a spiritual level which contributes to our transformation and growth.

Pretty sure I responded to that comment.

No amount of knowledge leads to transformation without the inner work of transformation.
We see lots of knowledge advocates on this forum, but very few transformation advocates.

1 Corinthians 8:1 NIV
... knowledge puffs up while love builds up.

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[St. SteVen]

Funny that isn't what you SAID in the video.

That Steve is not me. That is Steve Gregg.
And it is a VERY unbiased video presentation because at that time he was undecided.

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