The Only Way We Will Ever Agree

[FaithWillDo]

I’ll go with it doesn’t relate.

Dear VictoryinJesus,
You said,
Paul to me is speaking personally of his own conversation (conversion) (I thought) when death came to “the child of the devil” …his carnality …during the (his) conversation process. Or that is what I read.

Here is the scripture again:

Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. 12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. 13
Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Paul is not talking about his conversion. Paul is talking about his spiritual death that came about from violating the Law of God (when it slew him).

When the Law first comes to a person, it will slay them because it comes to them while they are carnal (spiritually marred, Jer 18:4) and subject to vanity (Rom 8:20). In this spiritual condition, they can only try to keep the Law outwardly (which cannot be done).

Paul then says that the commandment is holy and just and good. So what is the solution to this problem? The solution is for the Law to be written in our hearts so that we are changed from within. Only in that way can a person not violate the Law. This is the purpose for conversion.

Also, Paul is not speaking about his own present spiritual condition. Paul is already converted and the Law has already been written in his heart. Paul has already been born again and the Law can no longer slay him.

Also, from your comments above, it is sin that makes us into a child of the devil. The child of the devil is the one who is spiritually dead. That spiritual death is what Paul is referring to when he said the law slew him. All mankind has been spiritually slayed because all mankind has violated the Law.

That is why Christ said:

John 3:18 “He (the child of God/a converted believer) who believes in Him is not condemned; but he (all mankind who has sinned) who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Since all mankind has been "condemned already" by the Law, mankind is spiritually dead (slayed as Paul said). After a person's body dies, they will be forever "perished". Because this fate is what awaits all mankind, the Father sent Christ into the world to be our Savior:

1John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.

To accomplished the mission of saving mankind, Christ began His work in the flesh under the Old Covenant of Law. When He went to the cross, He earned the keys to death & hell by His death. With those keys, Christ now has the power to resurrect all mankind from the grave after their body dies. In this way, Christ accomplished giving all mankind "life" as stated in the verse below:

John 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

Since Christ's physical work at the cross gave all mankind life, Christ is now doing His spiritual work under a new covenant in order to give mankind the more abundant life that He also came to do. Under the New Covenant, Christ will come to every person who has ever lived and change them from within. This is His spiritual work of conversion. From Christ's spiritual work, a new child of God will be born and a child of the Devil will be destroyed. In this way, the Law is satisfied by the death of the child of the Devil who was "condemned already" by the Law. And by the birth of the new child of God, Christ's goal of giving mankind "life' and a "more abundant life" is also satisfied.

You said:
Because again I get confused at when Paul says he lost all things …all things destroyed…personally I think Paul fits “a man's work burned (tested) by fire who suffered loss (of all things): YET saved By fire.

1Cor 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss (I suffered the loss of all things for Christs sake): but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Here is the scripture:

Phi 3:3 For we are the circumcision, who worship God in the Spirit, rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh, 4 though I also might have confidence in the flesh. If anyone else thinks he may have confidence in the flesh, I more so: 5 circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of the Hebrews; concerning the law, a Pharisee; 6 concerning zeal, persecuting the church; concerning the righteousness which is in the law, blameless. 7 But what things were gain to me, these I have counted loss for Christ. 8 Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ.

Read the verses just prior to this verse 8 and you will see the "things" that Paul says he lost.

Paul lost his standing in the Jewish Nation as a Pharisee, he lost is "confidence in the flesh" and he lost his belief that the Law (trying to follow it by the flesh) could make him "blameless". In other words, Paul gave up the person he used to be in order to "gain Christ". Paul gave up all these things because he was converted and became a new creation in Christ. He really didn't have a choice in the matter and that is why Paul says that he is a "bondservant of Jesus Christ:

Rom 1:1 Paul, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated to the gospel of God.

All the Elect will become bondservants of Jesus Christ after they are converted. Why? Because Christ will cause them to "will and do of His good pleasure":

Phil 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

As for 1Cor 3:15, here is the full teaching:

1Cor 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Upon the bodily resurrection from the grave, all mankind will be separated as sheep (the converted Elect) from goats (everyone else).

The sheep, since they have been converted, their work (works that Christ did through them) will abide because those works were built upon the foundation of Christ. Their reward is having life as a child of God during the final age and the honor of reigning with Christ during that age. Their purpose in reigning with Christ is to help bring in the full harvest of mankind into the Kingdom of Heaven.

As for the goats whose work (their own works which are not built upon the foundation of Christ) "shall be burned", they will be cast into the Lake of Fire for judgment by the Law. The penalty of the Law for their sin which remains is death.

This verse below applies to their time of judgment in the Lake of Fire:

Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law: justice, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

When Christ judges the goats by the Law in the Lake of Fire, He will NOT omit "justice, mercy, and faith". Before the goats perish, Christ will have mercy upon them and give them the Early Rain of the Spirit which will give them faith. With this faith, the pathway for Christ to "come again" will be made straight. When He comes, Christ will pour out the Latter Rain and convert them. The new child of God will be gathered up to heaven but the goat (the child of the Devil) will remain in the Lake of Fire for destruction (this satisfies justice). In the end, the goats will be saved, "yet so as by fire".

Joel chapter 2:1-27 teaches this same truth of how the goats in the Lake of Fire are saved.

I hope this helps,
Joe

 

[amigo de christo]

God is not more concerned with us agreeing with each other than that we agree with Him.

EXACTLY . SO then why do so many follow a man pleasing gospel that dishonors and dont agree WITH GOD .
that rather has us focused on trying to agree with each other , trying
to find common ground . WHEN that common ground aint even CENTERED UNDER HIM OR CHRIST , HIS WORDS
OR HIS TRUTH . too many have fallen in love with an idea , and that idea while it will gather many
WONT BE SAVING SQUAT . it has DENIED GOD , HIS CHRIST .
and at most will only preach certain aspects of His truth and all the while
it teaches also things contrary TO HIM . this IS the problem . the devil does this .
YES . THE DEVIL HIMSELF can say a truth like GOD IS LOVE
and we ought to love our nieghbor as ourself . BUT BEWARE HIS VERSION OF LOVE . for it WILL DENY
THE TRUTH . IT WILL DENY THE TRUTH . it can only speak aspects about the truth
but the LIE IS IN THE MIDDLE OF IT ALL . the devil cometh to destroy
to mislead , to gather all right into a web of deceit . AND HE KNOWS WELL HOW TO DECIEVE .
HE KNOWS how to use scriptures . BUT HE WILL USE THEM in a way to OMIT
TRUTH . HE be a liar and the father of it .

 

[RedFan]

the gospel that overlooks sins and even accepts certain sins as love . example . HOMOSEXUALITY
the gospel that gives the idea that muslims and others serve the same GOD we do .
the gospel that wont correct sin and error within the church and rather accuses those who do so as being judgmental .
The idea that our duty is to somehow shut about about preaching THE DIRE NEED to BELIEVE ON JESUS
and rather try and just get along and find common ground with false religoins and others .

I don't subscribe to any gospel that overlooks sins and even accepts certain sins as love -- but I distinguish being a homosexual from engaging in homosexual acts.

I DO subscribe to the notion (it is crazy to call it a "gospel") that Muslims and others serve the same God we do -- the Abrahamic God mentioned in Genesis. Jews do as well. They just serve Him differently, and understand His salvific message to us differently.

I don't subscribe to any gospel that won't correct sin and error within the church and rather accuses those who do so as being judgmental.

I don't subscribe to the idea that our duty is not to preach the gospel -- although you and I and others may disagree on all of the terms of that gospel.

I DO believe we should try to get along and find common ground with those of other faiths, although not at the sacrifice of our own core beliefs.

 

[Bob]

budda and the social gospel would agree .
But you missed a huge fact and factor .
GOD doesnt want the world in agreement with one another .
HECK THEY HAD THAT AT THE BUILDING OF THE TOWER OF NIMROD .
What GOD wants is AGREEMENT WITH HIM < HIS WORD .
oops . guess many seem to forget THAT .
HECK they had unity , they had agreement , they had WE ARE ONE
all at the building of the tower of nimrod .
THE PROBLEM WAS , their agreeement , unity , love , what they praticed
DIDNT AGREE WITH GOD , it was all about HUMANITY .
AS IS THE SOCIAL ALL INCLUSIVE GOSPEL.
YOU SEE many preach a unity , a love , a finding common ground
, a relationship , a harmony , THAT JUST AINT IN AGREEMENT WITH GOD OR HIS WORDS OR HIS WORD .
THAT WONT BODE WELL ON THE DAY OF THE LORD EITHER . Now you too , will soon see why so many
have zero love for me . ME POINTS TO GOD , HIS GLORY, HIS LOVE , HIS HARMONY , HIS FAITH
HIS TRUTH . not to what makes man pleased , but to that which pleases GOD . GO on now
let the accusations begin . FOR MY LOVE i be hated . But my LOVE points to GOD , TO CHRIST
and that love points to the death of what pleases man . TIME WE OPEN US SOME BIBLE . do be encouraged now
ya hear .

Thank you for your response.

Let us examine the characteristics of Love Thy Neighbor because it is much more than any social gospel or unity or finding common ground.

1: caring and sharing—each of us has a personal responsibility to help those in need, not as a duty but cheerfully, with compassion; (e.g., Matthew 25: 35,36)
2: gentle and peaceful—no harm to others or our environment, no coercion, harassment, etc. (Commandments 6-10; Leviticus 19)
3: embracing the nuclear family as the foundation for the community—life-long, monogamous, faithful marriages between men and women. (Commandments 5,7)

For thousands of years, there were/are indigenous tribes the world over that have embraced Love Thy Neighbor, even though they might not have known God (but did believe in a spirit world and even a “great spirit”). (Romans 2: 14,15) Unless you believe they dreamed up their cultures on their own, it must have been God at work through special people in their tribes. That God chose not to reveal Himself says something about His character—humility. Surely He is primarily concerned about how people treat each other.

Peace and blessings.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Paul is not talking about his conversion. Paul is talking about his spiritual death that came about from violating the Law of God (when it slew him).

See…makes no sense to me. Here Paul is talking about his spiritual death that came from violating the Law of God. If I shared with someone, talking to them about my spiritual death that came….then at the same time I wasn’t speaking of my “present spiritual condition”…then, to me there has been a change or transformation or “conversion” that took place. Where one moves from speaking of death to “yet that is not the present condition.

because you said it yourself “Paul is already converted and the Law has already been written in his heart.” When someone speaks of when they were once dead (slain) and then no longer dead (reconciled unto God) …to me they are sharing their conversion. I would ask them “you speak of when your death and that is not your present condition… tell me what changed? How do you live?”

Also, Paul is not speaking about his own present spiritual condition. Paul is already converted and the Law has already been written in his heart. Paul has already been born again and the Law can no longer slay him.

“The law can no longer slay him”
My understanding is it says that “sin” slayed him, but it was by the Law which came that made manifest “sin” had deceived him …maybe sin no longer can deceive him? Considering John 11:9-10 Jesus answered, "Are there not twelve hours in the day? If anyone walks in the day, he does not stumble, because he sees the light of this world. [10] But if anyone walks in the night, he stumbles, because the light is not in him."


I think this is what marks is talking about. It’s not something to continue to disagree over. I do agree with some of what you share and it makes sense to me. It’s helpful. But if I ask you about it further it’s going to tie me in knots. I’d rather not and just keep reading without having ten thousand voices in my head.

 

[FaithWillDo]

See…makes no sense to me. Here Paul is talking about his spiritual death that came from violating the Law of God. If I shared with someone, talking to them about my spiritual death that came….then at the same time I wasn’t speaking of my “present spiritual condition”…then, to me there has been a change or transformation or “conversion” that took place. Where one moves from speaking of death to “yet that is not the present condition.

because you said it yourself “Paul is already converted and the Law has already been written in his heart.” When someone speaks of when they were once dead (slain) and then no longer dead (reconciled unto God) …to me they are sharing their conversion. I would ask them “you speak of when your death and that is not your present condition… tell me what changed? How do you live?”



“The law can no longer slay him”
My understanding is it says that “sin” slayed him, but it was by the Law which came that made manifest “sin” had deceived him …maybe sin no longer can deceive him? Considering John 11:9-10 Jesus answered, "Are there not twelve hours in the day? If anyone walks in the day, he does not stumble, because he sees the light of this world. [10] But if anyone walks in the night, he stumbles, because the light is not in him."


I think this is what marks is talking about. It’s not something to continue to disagree over. I do agree with some of what you share and it makes sense to me. It’s helpful. But if I ask you about it further it’s going to tie me in knots. I’d rather not and just keep reading without having ten thousand voices in my head.

Dear VictoryinJesus,
The only thing I can add is for you to read the last few verses of Romans chapter 7 and the first several verses of chapter 8. In those verses is where Paul talks about the solution to mankind's sin and death problem that he explained in most of chapter 7. The solution is Jesus Christ and conversion.

Here are the key portions:

Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit (this is conversion). 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace (this is where Paul is spiritually since he is converted).

Joe

 

[FaithWillDo]

See…makes no sense to me. Here Paul is talking about his spiritual death that came from violating the Law of God. If I shared with someone, talking to them about my spiritual death that came….then at the same time I wasn’t speaking of my “present spiritual condition”…then, to me there has been a change or transformation or “conversion” that took place. Where one moves from speaking of death to “yet that is not the present condition.

because you said it yourself “Paul is already converted and the Law has already been written in his heart.” When someone speaks of when they were once dead (slain) and then no longer dead (reconciled unto God) …to me they are sharing their conversion. I would ask them “you speak of when your death and that is not your present condition… tell me what changed? How do you live?”



“The law can no longer slay him”
My understanding is it says that “sin” slayed him, but it was by the Law which came that made manifest “sin” had deceived him …maybe sin no longer can deceive him? Considering John 11:9-10 Jesus answered, "Are there not twelve hours in the day? If anyone walks in the day, he does not stumble, because he sees the light of this world. [10] But if anyone walks in the night, he stumbles, because the light is not in him."


I think this is what marks is talking about. It’s not something to continue to disagree over. I do agree with some of what you share and it makes sense to me. It’s helpful. But if I ask you about it further it’s going to tie me in knots. I’d rather not and just keep reading without having ten thousand voices in my head.

Dear V______,
I forgot one thing. I said that the "law can no longer slay him". I misspoke there. As you said, it is sin that slayed him.
Joe

 

[APAK]

Dear APAK,
You said:
I do not agree with your marriage analogy of the 1st and the last rains as the historical two rain cycles in two seasons of the same year.

1Cor 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

The principle that Paul states above applies to more than just a natural body and a spiritual body.

The Old Covenant is natural and the New Testament is spiritual.

The same is true of the Law. Under the Old Covenant, the Law is written on tablets of stone (the natural). Under the New Covenant, it is written in the heart (the spiritual).

Also, all the OT events were natural events but they teach spiritual truths which are spiritually fulfilled within the Elect under the New Covenant (the spiritual).

Paul said this:

1Cor 10:11 Now all these things happened to them as types, and have been written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages are come.

The "ends of the ages" (what Christ was teaching in Mat 24) come upon an Elect believer when they are converted. With their conversion, their spiritual blindness is healed and the OT events come alive to them because they can see how they were spiritually fulfilled within themselves.

The Early and Latter Rains of the OT are natural. But like the other events, they are spiritually fulfilled within the Elect under the New Covenant.

Also, Christ's coming to an unbeliever with the Early Rain is a natural visitation. The new believer is given a measure of faith at that time but they will remain spiritually blind. Because of their blindness, they can only see Christ in the flesh (carnally/Christ and Him crucified). When Christ comes the second time to the same person with the Latter Rain, Christ will heal their blindness and appear to them spiritually.

Joe, let me understand what you just posted with my own running commentary of what you might be saying, and what I also think what you should be saying. And then let the chips fall where they may.

So, you begin with your first thought, of the spiritual things in creation and mankind, following the natural creation and order of things.

(1Co 15:45) So also it is written: The first man Adam became a living soul. The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
(1Co 15:46) But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and only then the spiritual.
(1Co 15:47) The first man is of the earth, earthy. The second man is heavenly.
(1Co 15:48) As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy, and as is the heavenly, such are they that are heavenly.
(1Co 15:49) And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

From these verses it says that creation, including the earth, and humankind, in their natural state will be transformed eventually into an invisible permanent spiritual state. And this transformation from the natural state of today will begin in this earthly life, and be completed in the next life.

And then you just focus your attention to the conversion, from the beginning of mankind in the natural state into to this spiritual state.

And you designate the Covenants as the first being natural and the last of the 'season of God with mankind' as spiritual in nature.

And then you focus on the Covenants as the OT of the written law, outside of the heart, and the NT of the law written inside the heart.

And then you state that the OT events were all natural events teaching future spiritual truths, and fulfilled by believers under the NT.

If natural events are to mean only human actions only, without God's intervention, then I do not totally agree at this point. And then I believe you neglected God's critical direct involvement in the affairs of men that did cause mostly predicable carnal natural reactions to his involvement.

The Old Covenant events, as recorded in scripture, were not solely natural events, but rather a combination of natural and supernatural (spiritual) occurrences that conveyed spiritual truths. The Old Testament is replete with examples of God’s direct involvement in the lives of His people, guiding them and revealing His character and will.

Yes, many Old Covenant events were designed to teach future spiritual truths, often through typology and foreshadowing.

For instance:

The story of creation and the Garden of Eden teaches about the nature of sin, the need for redemption, and the promise of a future savior (Genesis 3).

The story of the Exodus and the giving of the Law at Mount Sinai teaches about God’s covenant relationship with His people, His holiness, and the need for obedience (Exodus 20).

The institution of the Sabbath teaches about God’s rest and the importance of rest and worship (Genesis 2:2-3).

The story of the tabernacle and the priesthood teaches about the importance of worship, sacrifice, and the need for a mediator between God and humanity (Exodus 25-31).

The story of the prophets, such as Abraham, Moses, and David, teaches about God’s character, His faithfulness, and His desire for a relationship with His people (Genesis 12-50, Exodus 3-4, 1 Samuel 16-31).

These events, among many others, were not simply natural occurrences, but were designed by God to convey spiritual truths and prepare the way for the coming of Jesus Christ.

The Old Testament is a rich tapestry of spiritual truth, woven together by God’s hand to guide His people and point to the future redemption that would come through Jesus Christ.

Then in my words once again, you infer that this means the OT Covenant reflects the natural state of man, and the New Testament reflected the beginning and end of the transformation for natural to the spiritual permanent state.

And to round this first extend thought off, you cite 1 Co 10:11...

(1Co 10:11) Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written about for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.

Paul is clearly telling the Corinthians that what happened, especially to the Israelites during the time of Moses, and those left in the desert to die there by design, and were also led by the cloud/angel of God (verse 1), did receive spiritual graces of God along the way, and they failed to capitalize on them, or believe in them. Their failures to obey then are real lessons and dire warnings for us today.

One of their major disobedient acts was spiritual idolatry.

So, Paul continues...about idolatry of the same (spiritually driven by their carnal natural state) idolatrous Israelites who were forced in the wilderness to 'die'

(1Co 10:12) Therefore let him that thinks he stands be careful lest he fall.
(1Co 10:13) No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and He will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation He will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.
(1Co 10:14) (Don’t Participate in Idol Worship) Therefore, my beloved, flee from idolatry.
(1Co 10:15) I speak as to wise people. Think upon what I say.
(1Co 10:16) The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not a communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not a communion of the body of Christ?
(1Co 10:17) Seeing that we, who are many, are one loaf, one body; for we are all partaking of the one loaf.
(1Co 10:18) Behold Israel after the flesh. Are not those who eat the sacrifices participants in the altar?
(1Co 10:19) What say I then? That a thing sacrificed to idols is anything, or that an idol is anything?
(1Co 10:20) But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to demons and not to God; and I would not have you sharing communion with demons.
(1Co 10:21) You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons. You cannot partake of the table of the Lord and of the table of demons.
(1Co 10:22) Or do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? Are we stronger than he?

And then you say that the First and Last rains of the OT are natural, and like other events the are fulfilled by believer's in the NT. What do you mean by these words? Maybe you elaborate and explain it in your next paragraph.

And then I strongly disagree with your not so-clear next paragraph. It is unbiblical on a few levels.

First, I categorically deny that Christ pays anyone a visit for their salvation or their preparation, of a first or last rain if that is also to be believed, and I do not, whether to an unbeliever or believer. Christ does not do this work!

Second, the Spirit of God provides Christ' spirit to a new believer, and the saving faith to new believer as a gift, for the confession and repentance of sin and belief in the gospel of a spiritual form of belief, not natural. It is ALL spiritual. How could ever think and believe that someone is saved resulting in the same spiritual blindness? Not happening and not scriptural at all.

And I think I will stop here as I already see by scanning more paragraphs you do not understand the process of conversion or rebirth, especially according to scripture.

And further, your post is at least 3x too large to do any justice to it. You should have sent it in 3 intervals over time.

Gook luck with your very unbiblical theory Joe

 

[FaithWillDo]

Joe, let me understand what you just posted with my own running commentary of what you might be saying, and what I also think what you should be saying. And then let the chips fall where they may.

Dear APAX,
You said:
The story of creation and the Garden of Eden teaches about the nature of sin, the need for redemption, and the promise of a future savior (Genesis 3).

The story of the Exodus and the giving of the Law at Mount Sinai teaches about God’s covenant relationship with His people, His holiness, and the need for obedience (Exodus 20).

The institution of the Sabbath teaches about God’s rest and the importance of rest and worship (Genesis 2:2-3).

The story of the tabernacle and the priesthood teaches about the importance of worship, sacrifice, and the need for a mediator between God and humanity (Exodus 25-31).

The story of the prophets, such as Abraham, Moses, and David, teaches about God’s character, His faithfulness, and His desire for a relationship with His people (Genesis 12-50, Exodus 3-4, 1 Samuel 16-31).

These events, among many others, were not simply natural occurrences, but were designed by God to convey spiritual truths and prepare the way for the coming of Jesus Christ.

The meanings you assigned above are not the spiritual understandings that the Elect see. Your understanding is carnal.

You said:
And then you say that the First and Last rains of the OT are natural, and like other events the are fulfilled by believer's in the NT. What do you mean by these words? Maybe you elaborate and explain it in your next paragraph.

The events of the OT are "types" which teach spiritual truths.

Here is a very summarized spiritual understanding of Noah and the ark:

When Noah was commissioned to build the ark, it represented him receiving the Early Rain. Noah then "worked" up until the time he entered the ark. When Noah and the seven others entered the ark, it represented one believer receiving the Latter Rain and being "born again". The ark represents Christ. When the believer entered the ark, they entered into Christ. The reason there were "eight" people who entered the ark is because the number eight represents a new spiritual state of being for a person. After the believer entered the ark, judgment came. Its destruction represented the destruction of the carnality (the world) of the believer. They did not suffer wrath from the judgment because they were "in Christ" and protected by Him. Also, judgment comes by the Holy Spirit from within a believer. For that reason, judgment came as a flood (a flood represents judgment by the Holy Spirit). The rain fell for forty days. Forty is the number for a time of tribulation. After the flood was finished, the believer was converted.

The spiritual meaning above is why Christ mentions Noah when He is teaching about the conversion event in His end-time teachings.
The story of Lot and his wife also teach the same spiritual process of conversion and that is why Christ also mentions Lot and his wife in the same teachings.

You said:
First, I categorically deny that Christ pays anyone a visit for their salvation or their preparation, of a first or last rain if that is also to be believed, and I do not, whether to an unbeliever or believer. Christ does not do this work!

The only way a person can be saved is for Christ to come to them (without their asking or permission) and freely give them the Early Rain of the Spirit. This happens without their repentance and without them having any faith.

These verses apply:

1Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Rom 3:10 As it is written, there is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

When Christ came to Paul on the Damascus Road, Paul was on his way to persecute Christians and had NO intention of becoming a Christian. But all that changed when Christ "suddenly" came to His temple (Paul) and gave Paul the Early Rain. With the Spirit, Paul fell to his knees and called Jesus "Lord". Paul then submitted to the Lord's authority and asked "what do you want me to do?".

This is the only way a person receives the Spirit, even the Early Rain. To believe that mankind must do anything (like making a free will decision to accept Christ) is a "work" and is filthy rags. Christ is the Savior and He does 100% of the works necessary to save a person. Nothing is left up to chance or to mankind to decide.

You said:
Second, the Spirit of God provides Christ' spirit to a new believer, and the saving faith to new believer as a gift, for the confession and repentance of sin and belief in the gospel of a spiritual form of belief, not natural. It is ALL spiritual. How could ever think and believe that someone is saved resulting in the same spiritual blindness? Not happening and not scriptural at all.

A person becomes a new believer because Christ has come to them and given them the Spirit. The Spirit gives the person a measure of faith and certain spiritual gifts. They did not ask for the Spirit or the gifts but after Christ gave it to them, they could only call Jesus "Lord". No one with the Spirit will reject Christ.

When Christ comes to a person and gives them the Early Rain, they will be given a measure of faith but they will remain spiritually blind. Because they can only see carnally, they can only "see" Christ in the flesh through scripture. That is why an unconverted believer can't understand the spiritual teachings that the OT events teach or understand the spiritual teachings of Christ that He teaches through parables and analogies.

As for spiritual blindness, can you not accept what the story of the healing of the blind man teaches (Mark 8:15-25)? If a believer can't understand what Christ is teaching in that story, they are not going to be able to understand most of His other spiritual teachings either. They are just too spiritually blind.

Here is an example of Christ's spiritual teaching from a short parable:

Mat 13:31 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field: 32 Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof.

The "man" is Christ. The "field" is a unbeliever. The "seed" is the Holy Spirit (Early Rain). The tree is the new believer that the seed produces (the new creation). The "birds" are unclean spirits (represents the spirit of anti-Christ) that come from Satan. When the birds lodge in the branches of the tree, they are indwelling the believer and deceiving them by their false teachings.

The truth that this parable teaches happens to ALL new believers. No one has a supposed "free will" ability to avoid it happening to them.

Here is a similar parable:

Mat 13:33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

"Leaven" represents the false teachings of Satan. The "woman" represents the carnal spiritual nature of a believer who has only received the Early Rain. "Meal" represents the truth of God. The number "three" represents a spiritual process. After the woman takes the leaven from Satan, she hides it into the three measures of meal until the whole loaf of truth is leavened. This leavened bread is what a new believer consumes, all the while not realizing that the leaven is in the bread. That is why the parable says the leaven is "hidden" in the meal.

Again, no new believer can avoid this happening to them.

Until Christ comes to a believer a second time, it is not possible for them to accept what I have presented. It requires spiritual vision. When a person's spiritual blindness is healed, it is an amazing thing to witness because a whole new way of seeing Christ comes to them. I'm sure you will experience it someday because God's Word says you will.

Joe

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Dear VictoryinJesus,
The only thing I can add is for you to read the last few verses of Romans chapter 7 and the first several verses of chapter 8. In those verses is where Paul talks about the solution to mankind's sin and death problem that he explained in most of chapter 7. The solution is Jesus Christ and conversion.

Here are the key portions:

Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit (this is conversion). 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace (this is where Paul is spiritually since he is converted).

Joe

I’m not disagreeing Paul was converted and no longer walked after the things of the flesh but walked after the things of the Spirit. I’m not disagreeing this is where Paul is ‘to be spiritually minded is life and peace.’ I only became confused over where he spoke of the Law coming and sin was made manifest, and he died because of sin. To me, he said this was not evil but good because sin was revealed, or that man of sin was revealed (Imo) when the Law came, to reveal he who works iniquity. Paul admits to being a waster and a destroyer. To me sin has to be revealed (or seen) before it is destroyed, otherwise one remains in denial. That part really confused me. Especially with what you posted back. I’m going to let it go for now because the more I think on it, the more confused I become. Maybe you are right and I’m just getting it all twisted or taking what you commented the wrong way. I’ll revisit it later.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

In Romans, Paul is talking about the death that comes to all mankind because of our sin (violation of God's Law). The verse in Isaiah is talking about the death that comes to the child of the Devil (all mankind) during the conversion process

While it’s fresh on my mind, this is what I think you are saying is the difference between Romans and Isaiah:

In Romans, Paul talks about death to all mankind because of sin.

Isaiah talks about the death of the child of the devil when mankind is converted?

Do you mean there is a huge difference between the death of mankind because of sin (going into bondage), and the death of the child of the devil when man is reconciled (coming out of bondage)?

 

[Brakelite]

We will all agree when we are all ready to die. When we are all ready to be humbled into the dust and accept that we know nothing as we ought. When we are no longer willing to take the easy safe road, rather than suffer a little while. When we cease to seek the favour of men, and jump around like little puppies whenever someone pays us any attention. When we are willing to speak the truth in love, and not seeking fame with either a "following" or numerous "likes". When we accept what God says, rather than what we would prefer Him to be saying.
The greatest want of the world is the want of men—men who will not be bought or sold, men who in their inmost souls are true and honest, men who do not fear to call sin by its right name, men whose conscience is as true to duty as the needle to the pole, men who will stand for the right though the heavens fall.
The above will never happen. If we all do end up agreeing, the result will only go two ways. Everyone will be saved, or everyone will be lost.

 

[FaithWillDo]

I’m not disagreeing Paul was converted and no longer walked after the things of the flesh but walked after the things of the Spirit. I’m not disagreeing this is where Paul is ‘to be spiritually minded is life and peace.’ I only became confused over where he spoke of the Law coming and sin was made manifest, and he died because of sin. To me, he said this was not evil but good because sin was revealed, or that man of sin was revealed (Imo) when the Law came, to reveal he who works iniquity. Paul admits to being a waster and a destroyer. To me sin has to be revealed (or seen) before it is destroyed, otherwise one remains in denial. That part really confused me. Especially with what you posted back. I’m going to let it go for now because the more I think on it, the more confused I become. Maybe you are right and I’m just getting it all twisted or taking what you commented the wrong way. I’ll revisit it later.

Dear VictoryinJesus,
You said:
To me sin has to be revealed (or seen) before it is destroyed, otherwise one remains in denial. That part really confused me.

I completely agree.

Christ does reveal our sin to us before He converts us. That is what happens when a believer is given the Latter Rain and has their spiritual blindness healed. At that time, the man of sin will be revealed (2Thes 2:8) and the believer will see the Abomination of Desolation (Mat 24:15) that had previously happened to them. After the believer sees that both of these revelations apply to themselves, judgment will come to destroy who they became under the influence of Satan. This occurs when Christ is taking the believer through the conversion process.

What Paul was teaching early in Romans 7 was different though.

Maybe this is what is confusing you: When a person receives the Early Rain, the Law comes to them and they see their sinfulness and need for Christ. This sinfulness is what Paul was describing in Romans chapter 7 and he ends his comments by showing that the solution to our sinfulness is Christ and conversion. That is why Paul made this statement to the Galatians:

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Paul's message above is the same basic message that he was teaching to the Romans.

Now for what may be the cause of your confusion. After a believer receives the Early Rain and sees their sinfulness as defined by the Law, Christ takes the new believer to a new & deeper level of sinfulness. Because the new believer remains spiritually blind after receiving the Early Rain, "something worse" will happen to them:

John 5:13 Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.

This scripture above comes from the healing of the infirmed man who was laying beside the Pool of Bethesda. That story is a "type" that teaches the pathway to salvation that the Elect will travel. When Christ heals the blind man at the pool, it represents the man receiving salvation when he receives the Early Rain of the Spirit. The infirmed man is made whole (saved). Later, Christ finds the same man in the temple and tells him to "sin no more lest a worse thing come unto thee". Well, the worse thing does come to the man very quickly. Like Judas, the spirit of anti-Christ enters the man (not shown in the story) and he leaves the temple and reports Jesus to the Jews. The man reports that it was Jesus who healed him on the Sabbath Day. And like with Judas, the Jews then sought to kill Jesus.

John 5:15 The man departed and told the Jews that it was Jesus who had made him well. 16 For this reason the Jews persecuted Jesus, and sought to kill Him, because He had done these things on the Sabbath.

The man who Jesus made whole (saved) betrayed Christ and became a man of sin, a son of perdition. This is when the healed man fell from grace and lost his salvation. In other words, the healed man became "worse than the first". What the healed man experienced is explained by Christ below:

Mat 12:43 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none. 44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished. 45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself SEVEN other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.

No one can avoid becoming "worse than the first" because it is God's "will" for it to happen. After the spirit of anti-Christ enters the believer, they will experience Satan's "Day of Evil" when he rules them from within. The Day of Evil is in contrast to the "Day of the Lord" when Christ will rules the believer from within by the Holy Spirit.

Christ wants mankind to fully experience evil and then expose that evil to us before He converts us into a child of God.

Christ teaches this truth here:

Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. 15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand. 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

The scripture above has its message concealed by Christ's spiritual language. The phrase "this gospel of the kingdom" is referring to Satan's "another gospel" which mixes man's works with faith. When Christ says that this false gospel has been "preached in all the world", He is meaning that it has been fully taught to the believer. They are the world. The "nations" are the strongholds of the believers thoughts and beliefs who have accepted this false gospel.

So what Christ is actually teaching in Mat 24:14 is that the "end" (conversion) will not come to the believer until after the believer has been completely made "worse than the first" and has thoroughly experienced their Day of Evil. When an Elect believer gets to this high spiritual state of wickedness, they are then ready for Christ to come and convert them.

When Christ comes, He will give them the Latter Rain which will heal their spiritual blindness. After their blindness is healed, they will see their worsened state of wickedness (v. 15, the Abomination of Desolation). They will then be ready to be judged (v. 16, flee to the mountains like Lot) and be converted.

Does this help remove your confusion?

Joe

 

[FaithWillDo]

While it’s fresh on my mind, this is what I think you are saying is the difference between Romans and Isaiah:

In Romans, Paul talks about death to all mankind because of sin.

Isaiah talks about the death of the child of the devil when mankind is converted?

Do you mean there is a huge difference between the death of mankind because of sin (going into bondage), and the death of the child of the devil when man is reconciled (coming out of bondage)?

Dear VictoryinJesus,
You are getting very close to what I have been trying to show you.

I just made another post (which should be above this one) that explains in more detail what you just stated in this post. I think you are just about there on your understanding!
Joe

 

[APAK]

Dear APAX,
You said:
The story of creation and the Garden of Eden teaches about the nature of sin, the need for redemption, and the promise of a future savior (Genesis 3).

The story of the Exodus and the giving of the Law at Mount Sinai teaches about God’s covenant relationship with His people, His holiness, and the need for obedience (Exodus 20).

The institution of the Sabbath teaches about God’s rest and the importance of rest and worship (Genesis 2:2-3).

The story of the tabernacle and the priesthood teaches about the importance of worship, sacrifice, and the need for a mediator between God and humanity (Exodus 25-31).

The story of the prophets, such as Abraham, Moses, and David, teaches about God’s character, His faithfulness, and His desire for a relationship with His people (Genesis 12-50, Exodus 3-4, 1 Samuel 16-31).

These events, among many others, were not simply natural occurrences, but were designed by God to convey spiritual truths and prepare the way for the coming of Jesus Christ.

The meanings you assigned above are not the spiritual understandings that the Elect see. Your understanding is carnal.

You said:
And then you say that the First and Last rains of the OT are natural, and like other events the are fulfilled by believer's in the NT. What do you mean by these words? Maybe you elaborate and explain it in your next paragraph.

The events of the OT are "types" which teach spiritual truths.

Here is a very summarized spiritual understanding of Noah and the ark:

When Noah was commissioned to build the ark, it represented him receiving the Early Rain. Noah then "worked" up until the time he entered the ark. When Noah and the seven others entered the ark, it represented one believer receiving the Latter Rain and being "born again". The ark represents Christ. When the believer entered the ark, they entered into Christ. The reason there were "eight" people who entered the ark is because the number eight represents a new spiritual state of being for a person. After the believer entered the ark, judgment came. Its destruction represented the destruction of the carnality (the world) of the believer. They did not suffer wrath from the judgment because they were "in Christ" and protected by Him. Also, judgment comes by the Holy Spirit from within a believer. For that reason, judgment came as a flood (a flood represents judgment by the Holy Spirit). The rain fell for forty days. Forty is the number for a time of tribulation. After the flood was finished, the believer was converted.

The spiritual meaning above is why Christ mentions Noah when He is teaching about the conversion event in His end-time teachings.
The story of Lot and his wife also teach the same spiritual process of conversion and that is why Christ also mentions Lot and his wife in the same teachings.

You said:
First, I categorically deny that Christ pays anyone a visit for their salvation or their preparation, of a first or last rain if that is also to be believed, and I do not, whether to an unbeliever or believer. Christ does not do this work!

The only way a person can be saved is for Christ to come to them (without their asking or permission) and freely give them the Early Rain of the Spirit. This happens without their repentance and without them having any faith.

These verses apply:

1Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Rom 3:10 As it is written, there is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

When Christ came to Paul on the Damascus Road, Paul was on his way to persecute Christians and had NO intention of becoming a Christian. But all that changed when Christ "suddenly" came to His temple (Paul) and gave Paul the Early Rain. With the Spirit, Paul fell to his knees and called Jesus "Lord". Paul then submitted to the Lord's authority and asked "what do you want me to do?".

This is the only way a person receives the Spirit, even the Early Rain. To believe that mankind must do anything (like making a free will decision to accept Christ) is a "work" and is filthy rags. Christ is the Savior and He does 100% of the works necessary to save a person. Nothing is left up to chance or to mankind to decide.

You said:
Second, the Spirit of God provides Christ' spirit to a new believer, and the saving faith to new believer as a gift, for the confession and repentance of sin and belief in the gospel of a spiritual form of belief, not natural. It is ALL spiritual. How could ever think and believe that someone is saved resulting in the same spiritual blindness? Not happening and not scriptural at all.

A person becomes a new believer because Christ has come to them and given them the Spirit. The Spirit gives the person a measure of faith and certain spiritual gifts. They did not ask for the Spirit or the gifts but after Christ gave it to them, they could only call Jesus "Lord". No one with the Spirit will reject Christ.

When Christ comes to a person and gives them the Early Rain, they will be given a measure of faith but they will remain spiritually blind. Because they can only see carnally, they can only "see" Christ in the flesh through scripture. That is why an unconverted believer can't understand the spiritual teachings that the OT events teach or understand the spiritual teachings of Christ that He teaches through parables and analogies.

As for spiritual blindness, can you not accept what the story of the healing of the blind man teaches (Mark 8:15-25)? If a believer can't understand what Christ is teaching in that story, they are not going to be able to understand most of His other spiritual teachings either. They are just too spiritually blind.

Here is an example of Christ's spiritual teaching from a short parable:

Mat 13:31 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field: 32 Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof.

The "man" is Christ. The "field" is a unbeliever. The "seed" is the Holy Spirit (Early Rain). The tree is the new believer that the seed produces (the new creation). The "birds" are unclean spirits (represents the spirit of anti-Christ) that come from Satan. When the birds lodge in the branches of the tree, they are indwelling the believer and deceiving them by their false teachings.

The truth that this parable teaches happens to ALL new believers. No one has a supposed "free will" ability to avoid it happening to them.

Here is a similar parable:

Mat 13:33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

"Leaven" represents the false teachings of Satan. The "woman" represents the carnal spiritual nature of a believer who has only received the Early Rain. "Meal" represents the truth of God. The number "three" represents a spiritual process. After the woman takes the leaven from Satan, she hides it into the three measures of meal until the whole loaf of truth is leavened. This leavened bread is what a new believer consumes, all the while not realizing that the leaven is in the bread. That is why the parable says the leaven is "hidden" in the meal.

Again, no new believer can avoid this happening to them.

Until Christ comes to a believer a second time, it is not possible for them to accept what I have presented. It requires spiritual vision. When a person's spiritual blindness is healed, it is an amazing thing to witness because a whole new way of seeing Christ comes to them. I'm sure you will experience it someday because God's Word says you will.

Joe

Joe, I wager you've been working on this strange brew of yours for awhile. You have not the foggiest idea of what you have created here with your warped view and blatant misuse of scripture. And to think that the cycles of seasonal rains for planting seeds and growing them to maturity is embedded or hidden in many places of the OT for conversion and salvation is ridiculous, and dangerous.

"The meanings you assigned above are not the spiritual understandings that the Elect see. Your understanding is carnal. " Are you kidding me! You tell me you do not know what carnality, spirituality and who are the elected believers.

How does one become the elect Joe, with the rains of Christ...so laughable,

And I thought I may be the only one from another planet.

 

[FaithWillDo]

Joe, I wager you've been working on this strange brew of yours for awhile. You have not the foggiest idea of what you have created here with your warped view and blatant misuse of scripture. And to think that the cycles of seasonal rains for planting seeds and growing them to maturity is embedded or hidden in many places of the OT for conversion and salvation is ridiculous, and dangerous.

"The meanings you assigned above are not the spiritual understandings that the Elect see. Your understanding is carnal. " Are you kidding me! You tell me you do not know what carnality, spirituality and who are the elected believers.

How does one become the elect Joe, with the rains of Christ...so laughable,

And I thought I may be the only one from another planet.

Dear APAK,
Until a believer has been given the Latter Rain and has their spiritual blindness healed, it is not possible for them to understand the teachings of Christ. If it were possible, then man's "works" would have some value in a person's salvation - but they don't.
Joe

 

[BarneyFife]

The Early and Latter Rain concept is very concealed in scripture. It is not milk - it is strong meat.

It is actually "milk" to some faith groups.

You will likely not be able to "see" what I present below because your foundation of truth is presently at a lower level.

And we're off to the races!

.

 

[amigo de christo]

Thank you for your response.

Let us examine the characteristics of Love Thy Neighbor because it is much more than any social gospel or unity or finding common ground.

1: caring and sharing—each of us has a personal responsibility to help those in need, not as a duty but cheerfully, with compassion; (e.g., Matthew 25: 35,36)
2: gentle and peaceful—no harm to others or our environment, no coercion, harassment, etc. (Commandments 6-10; Leviticus 19)
3: embracing the nuclear family as the foundation for the community—life-long, monogamous, faithful marriages between men and women. (Commandments 5,7)

For thousands of years, there were/are indigenous tribes the world over that have embraced Love Thy Neighbor, even though they might not have known God (but did believe in a spirit world and even a “great spirit”). (Romans 2: 14,15) Unless you believe they dreamed up their cultures on their own, it must have been God at work through special people in their tribes. That God chose not to reveal Himself says something about His character—humility. Surely He is primarily concerned about how people treat each other.

Peace and blessings.

Note a strong delusion to believe a WHAT . A LIE .
keep that in mind the next time anyone tries to imply muslims , those of other religoins
have their own salvic plan they just do in a different way . Cause THAT BE A LIE .
there is only ONE plan of salvation , only ONE GOPSEL by which a man can be saved .
Muslims and others are not working out squat . Do not KNOW GOD
and DO NOT FOLLOW GOD .
But a lie sure has come in and more and more seem to be buying
into a lie that has indeed REJECTED the LOVE of THE TRUTH whereby they could have BEEN SAVED .
Beware the abraham peace accords and religious tolerance
act by which they are simply merging the religoins .
BEWARE IT . its lie , its love cannot save , IT IS NO GOSPEL OF GOD .
For this cause HE SENT UNTO THEM A STRONG DELUSION that they should beleive a lie and be damned .
THEY REJECTED SOMETHING . OH YEAH , THE LOVE OF THE TRUTH , aka THAT WOULD BE THE TRUE GOSPEL .
they are replacing the gospel that saves with a gospel that graves . and more and more do buy into it daily

 

[amigo de christo]

I don't subscribe to any gospel that overlooks sins and even accepts certain sins as love -- but I distinguish being a homosexual from engaging in homosexual acts.

I DO subscribe to the notion (it is crazy to call it a "gospel") that Muslims and others serve the same God we do -- the Abrahamic God mentioned in Genesis. Jews do as well. They just serve Him differently, and understand His salvific message to us differently.

I don't subscribe to any gospel that won't correct sin and error within the church and rather accuses those who do so as being judgmental.

I don't subscribe to the idea that our duty is not to preach the gospel -- although you and I and others may disagree on all of the terms of that gospel.

I DO believe we should try to get along and find common ground with those of other faiths, although not at the sacrifice of our own core beliefs.

note a strong delusion to believe a WHAT . A LIE .
keep that in mind the next time anyone tries to imply muslims , those of other religoins
have their own salvic plan they just do in a different way . Cause THAT BE A LIE .
there is only ONE plan of salvation , only ONE GOPSEL by which a man can be saved .
Muslims and others are not working out squat . Do not KNOW GOD
and DO NOT FOLLOW GOD .
But a lie sure has come in and more and more seem to be buying
into a lie that has indeed REJECTED the LOVE of THE TRUTH whereby they could have BEEN SAVED .
Beware the abraham peace accords and religious tolerance
act by which they are simply merging the religoins .
BEWARE IT . its lie , its love cannot save , IT IS NO GOSPEL OF GOD .
For this cause HE SENT UNTO THEM A STRONG DELUSION that they should beleive a lie and be damned .
THEY REJECTED SOMETHING . OH YEAH , THE LOVE OF THE TRUTH , aka THAT WOULD BE THE TRUE GOSPEL .
they are replacing the gospel that saves with a gospel that graves . and more and more do buy into it daily

 

[amigo de christo]

It is actually "milk" to some faith groups.



And we're off to the races!

.

WE Are off to the races indeed my friend . have ya seen what some are already writing
speaking of other religoins having their own salvic plan . You might wanna help me expose that my dear friend and fast too .
I sees me another go spell getting brought in .......................TIME to expose it .