The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !

[Kermos]

Yes but the logic is flawed.
Christ died once for all.

Well, then @Renniks, in effect, you asserted that God's will is soooo weak that God fails to save some people from the wrath of God for whom Jesus died.

Somewhere, there is a lady who rejected Jesus Christ, and she died while she rejected Jesus Christ.

The gospel, the Jesus, that you confess failed to save her even though your Jesus died for her sins. The atonement sacrifice of your Jesus Christ was insufficient for her to enter his Joy, so she who died suffers the wrath of God because your he who died is miserably weak. (Galatians 1:6-7)

Truly, the gospel of Jesus Christ includes that He succeeds in saving every single one of the people for whom he died from the wrath of God (John 10:28). Jesus Christ is Mighty God (Isaiah 9:6), and there is none like God (Isaiah 46:9).

Boy, Renniks, your humanistic assertion is ungodly, unscriptural, and a denial of the Word of God.

Moreover, Lord Jesus Christ died exclusively to save all the people who believe in Jesus whom the father has sent (John 6:29, John 10:27).

 

[Scott Downey]

John 12 v32, Christ says He will draw all peoples to Himself, not all people. The NKJV makes that clear.
Also consider the context, Christ is talking to the Jews, who can not accept that their Messiah would save anyone outside of their nation. This is what Christ is speaking about, that the gospel is going to reach all the nations, all of them. It is not that He will draw each and every single person who has ever lived. And if it was that, then God failed. Are you willing to believe God is a failure?, as many reject the gospel and not every single person has heard, so then how could they ALL have been drawn. Such a statement would be a lie.

30 Jesus answered and said, “This voice did not come because of Me, but for your sake. 31 Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out. 32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.” 33 This He said, signifying by what death He would die.

34 The people answered Him, “We have heard from the law that the Christ remains forever; and how can You say, ‘The Son of Man must be lifted up’? Who is this Son of Man?”

 

[Enoch111]

It is not that He will draw each and every single person who has ever lived. And if it was that, then God failed.

This is what is called a straw man argument -- "God failed".

1. Firstly you contradicted EXACTLY what Christ said -- that He would draw ALL to Himself. The word "men" is in italics in the KJV, which means that it was inserted by the translators. The Greek simply has ALL, which implies all human beings (men, women, and children, not all "peoples"). καγω εαν υψωθω εκ της γης παντας ελκυσω προς εμαυτον. [ παντας (pantas) = all] Literal translation: And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, all will draw to myself.

2. Secondly, Christ draws all to Himself through the Gospel (Mark 16:15,16)

3. Thirdly, all do not obey the Gospel (Rom 10:16-21)

4. Fourthly, this is NOT a failure on God's part. but a failure on man's part (John 3:18-21).

 

[Scott Downey]

This is what is called a straw man argument -- "God failed".

1. Firstly you contradicted EXACTLY what Christ said -- that He would draw ALL to Himself. The word "men" is in italics in the KJV, which means that it was inserted by the translators. The Greek simply has ALL, which implies all human beings (men, women, and children, not all "peoples"). καγω εαν υψωθω εκ της γης παντας ελκυσω προς εμαυτον. [ παντας (pantas) = all] Literal translation: And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, all will draw to myself.

2. Secondly, Christ draws all to Himself through the Gospel (Mark 16:15,16)

3. Thirdly, all do not obey the Gospel (Rom 10:16-21)

4. Fourthly, this is NOT a failure on God's part. but a failure on man's part (John 3:18-21).

This action of 'draw' though is not some kind of random drawing of all, in the hope some respond positively, it is a targeted drawing. the result is their salvation.

John 6 v44, Those who are drawn, Christ raises up. then v45, not all as in each and every person who ever lived is taught by God.
The all refers back to the ones drawn. They are the ones who learn and are saved.

43 Jesus therefore answered and said to them, “Do not murmur among yourselves. 44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.

 

[Scott Downey]

Here Paul teaches the difference between the unsaved and the saved, and the reasons for each.

The ones saved, God chose from the beginning of time, then Paul describes how God saves them
The unsaved, God actually sends to them strong delusions to believe the LIE, as of course the unsaved enjoy unrighteousness and pleasures and sensuality. They will not receive the love of the truth. Fact is you wont receive Christ unless you are born of God, and that being born again is not of your will.

2 Thessalonians 2:9-15
New King James Version
9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Stand Fast
13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, 14 to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.

 

[Kermos]

This is what is called a straw man argument -- "God failed".

1. Firstly you contradicted EXACTLY what Christ said -- that He would draw ALL to Himself. The word "men" is in italics in the KJV, which means that it was inserted by the translators. The Greek simply has ALL, which implies all human beings (men, women, and children, not all "peoples"). καγω εαν υψωθω εκ της γης παντας ελκυσω προς εμαυτον. [ παντας (pantas) = all] Literal translation: And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, all will draw to myself.

2. Secondly, Christ draws all to Himself through the Gospel (Mark 16:15,16)

3. Thirdly, all do not obey the Gospel (Rom 10:16-21)

4. Fourthly, this is NOT a failure on God's part. but a failure on man's part (John 3:18-21).

Your arguments are against Christ on several accounts:

1. The Apostle John attributed the "if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself" (John 12:32) statement of Jesus specifically to "He was saying this to indicate the kind of death by which He was to die" (John 12:33).
   
2. Jesus attributed NOT the John 12:32 statement to salvation.
   
3. The John 12:32 statement aligns with “As surely as I live, says the Lord, every knee will bow before Me; every tongue will confess to God" (Romans 14:11) because with certainty every believer and unbeliever will bow the knee to Christ one day; therefore, here is the drawing in the John 12:32 statement; moreover, every believer receives eternal life (John 3:16), and every unbeliever disobedient person while living has the wrath of God abiding on such a disobedient one (John 3:36).
   
4. The words "all men" (πάντας pantas, every, conjugate of pas Strong's 3956) in John 12:32 is plural, rather than singular such as the words "every one" (πᾶς pas, every, pas Strong's 3956) in John 3:16 (please see post #2869 for a complete explanation of "every one believing" in John 3:16); therefore, pantas in John 12:32 accurately translates as "every people", "every peoples", and "all men" because pantas is plural. Because of this, Jesus says He will draw persons from every people group, like nation, per John 12:32 (Praise God, @Scott Downey pointed out "all peoples" in post #2882).
   
5. Jesus can say one thing with multiple meanings.
   
6. there is no indication for a supposed ability for man to choose Jesus for salvation respecting the recorded Word in John 12:32.
   
7. Christ draws all to himself by way of the Word of God, the Holy Spirit, the Power of God.
   
8. In effect, you asserted that God's will is soooo weak that God fails to save some people from the wrath of God for whom Jesus died.
   
   Somewhere, there is a lady who rejected Jesus Christ, and she died while she rejected Jesus Christ.
   
   The gospel, the Jesus, that you confess failed to save her even though your Jesus died for her sins. The atonement sacrifice of your Jesus Christ was insufficient for her to enter his Joy, so she who died suffers the wrath of God because your he who died is miserably weak. (Galatians 1:6-7)
   
   Truly, the gospel of Jesus Christ includes that He succeeds in saving every single one of the people for whom he died from the wrath of God (John 10:28). Jesus Christ is Mighty God (Isaiah 9:6), and there is none like God (Isaiah 46:9).

Boy, Enoch111, your humanistic assertion in your 4th point that man can choose Christ is ungodly, unscriptural and a denial of the Word of God because Christ says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation).

Lord Jesus Christ died exclusively to save all the people who believe in Jesus whom the father has sent (John 6:29, John 10:27).

 

[Scott Downey]

And then this too, Jesus tells us again here why some do not believe in Him, truth is the unbelieving will not and can not receive the things of God without being born of God, then they receive Him as Lord cause they can be taught by the Spirit. Otherwise they are naturally resistant, antagonistic,
have enmity against God and Christ. Christ tell us believers the world of unbelievers hates Him because He testifies of them their works are evil.

Romans 8:6-8 is the natural state of the unsaved
New King James Version
6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.
8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

John 7:7 The world cannot hate you, but it hates Me because I testify of it that its works are evil.

'brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth'

Sanctification by the Spirit is Him making you born again, belief in the truth is when you believe in Him in your new creation heart, you receive Him.
Salvation is of the Lord, and it begins with Him and not us.
Look at John 1:10-13, we receive Him as we were being born of God according to His will
And
1 John 5:1 NKJV Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him.
1 John 5:1 ESV Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him.

John 1:10-13
10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.
11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him.
12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:
13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

the action in v13 precedes what happens in v12. V12 is the reaction to the action that occurred in v13.
they receive Him because of the working power of God making them born of God
We are not born of the will of the flesh, not your will, not of your decision of your mind.
The unsaved man hates Christ and God, but they do love their false messiah's

Here we see Christ telling us people naturally do not believe in Him
Only those the Father gives to Christ come to Christ.
Then of all the Father has given to Him, God's will is none be lost.

John 6
35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst.

36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe.
37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.
40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

 

[brightfame52]

Yes but the logic is flawed.
Christ died once for all.

You seem like you dont have the slightest idea of what Im declaring.

 

[Renniks]

It means everyone believing. The scripture tells us why some believe. That is what it seems you may not want to hear.

Yes some believe because they humble themselves.

"Therefore humble yourselves under the mighty hand of God, that He may exalt you at the proper time."

 

[Renniks]

You seem like you dont have the slightest idea of what Im declaring.

You are claiming Christ only died for certain individuals.

 

[Renniks]

Somewhere, there is a lady who rejected Jesus Christ, and she died while she rejected Jesus Christ.

Actually there's a lot of people like that. God doesn't force anybody to accept him.
You twist scripture into knots to avoid the truth. It's really sad.
Jesus said when he was lifted up he would draw all onto him not some lucky people who won the Jesus lottery.

 

[Scott Downey]

Actually there's a lot of people like that. God doesn't force anybody to accept him.
You twist scripture into knots to avoid the truth. It's really sad.
Jesus said when he was lifted up he would draw all onto him not some lucky people who won the Jesus lottery.

True, God does not force anyone to believe in Christ, God gives to them a new heart and a new spirit on the inside, then He teaches them about Christ and then they receive Christ.

It is like the old man has enmity with God, that means they view Christ as an enemy and they dont want anything to do with Christ saying He is God.

But the new man on the inside is of the Spirit of God and that new man listens to Christ and God and follows Christ.

The old man is of the flesh, not of God's Spirit, and those in the flesh can not please God. To please God would be to believe what God says about Christ.
John 6
63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more.

The reason these disciples stopped walking with Christ, is they had not been given to Christ by the Father, so they could not believe in Him.
Their are spiritual powers at work in both unbeliever and believer.

The unbeliever has their mind blinded by Satan and they are perishing. While for the believer, God has shined His light Christ in their heart by His command towards them. It is an active God thing He has done for people who end up then believing. God has commanded the light to shine in their hearts, those He has saved.

Read here and see.
2 Corinthians 4
New King James Version
The Light of Christ’s Gospel
1 Therefore, since we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we do not lose heart. 2 But we have renounced the hidden things of shame, not walking in craftiness nor handling the word of God deceitfully, but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God.

3 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them. 5 For we do not preach ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord, and ourselves your bondservants for Jesus’ sake.

6 For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

 

[Kermos]

Actually there's a lot of people like that. God doesn't force anybody to accept him.
You twist scripture into knots to avoid the truth. It's really sad.
Jesus said when he was lifted up he would draw all onto him not some lucky people who won the Jesus lottery.

Your arguments are against Christ on several accounts:

1. The Apostle John attributed the "if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself" (John 12:32) statement of Jesus specifically to "He was saying this to indicate the kind of death by which He was to die" (John 12:33).
   
2. Jesus attributed NOT the John 12:32 statement to salvation.
   
3. The John 12:32 statement aligns with “As surely as I live, says the Lord, every knee will bow before Me; every tongue will confess to God" (Romans 14:11) because with certainty every believer and unbeliever will bow the knee to Christ one day; therefore, here is the drawing in the John 12:32 statement, every believer receives eternal life (John 3:16), and every unbeliever disobedient person while living has the wrath of God abiding on such a disobedient one (John 3:36).
   
4. The words "all men" (πάντας pantas, every, conjugate of pas Strong's 3956) in John 12:32 is plural, rather than singular such as the words "every one" (πᾶς pas, every, pas Strong's 3956) in John 3:16 (please see post #2869 for a complete explanation of "every one believing" in John 3:16); therefore, pantas in John 12:32 accurately translates as "every people", "every peoples", and "all men" because pantas is plural. Because of this, Jesus says He will draw persons from every people group, like nation, per John 12:32 (Praise God, @Scott Downey pointed out "all peoples" in post #2882).
   
5. Jesus can say one thing with multiple meanings.
   
6. there is no indication for a supposed ability for man to choose Jesus for salvation respecting the recorded Word in John 12:32.
   
7. Christ draws all to himself by way of the Word of God, the Holy Spirit, the Power of God.
   
8. In effect, you persist in asserting that God's will is soooo weak that God fails to save some people from the wrath of God for whom Jesus died.
   
   Somewhere, there is a lady who rejected Jesus Christ, and she died while she rejected Jesus Christ.
   
   The gospel, the Jesus, that you confess failed to save her even though your Jesus died for her sins. The atonement sacrifice of your Jesus Christ was insufficient for her to enter his Joy, so she who died suffers the wrath of God because your he who died is miserably weak. (Galatians 1:6-7)
   
   Truly, the gospel of Jesus Christ includes that He succeeds in saving every single one of the people for whom he died from the wrath of God (John 10:28). Jesus Christ is Mighty God (Isaiah 9:6), and there is none like God (Isaiah 46:9).

Boy, Renniks, your humanistic assertion that man can choose Jesus is ungodly, unscriptural and a denial of the Word of God because Christ says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation).

Lord Jesus Christ died exclusively to save all the people who believe in Jesus whom the father has sent (John 6:29, John 10:27).

 

[Renniks]

63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

Nothing there about one person being granted to come and another not.
We can accept or reject the spirit's work
"Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye." Acts 7:51

 

[Renniks]

Your arguments are against Christ on several accounts:

1. The Apostle John attributed the "if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself" (John 12:32) statement of Jesus specifically to "He was saying this to indicate the kind of death by which He was to die" (John 12:33).
   
2. Jesus attributed NOT the John 12:32 statement to salvation.
   
3. The John 12:32 statement aligns with “As surely as I live, says the Lord, every knee will bow before Me; every tongue will confess to God" (Romans 14:11) because with certainty every believer and unbeliever will bow the knee to Christ one day; therefore, here is the drawing in the John 12:32 statement.
   
4. The words "all men" (πάντας pantas, every, conjugate of pas Strong's 3956) in John 12:32 is plural, rather than singular such as the words "every one" (πᾶς pas, every, pas Strong's 3956) in John 3:16 (please see post #2869 for a complete explanation of "every one believing" in John 3:16); therefore, pantas in John 12:32 accurately translates as "every people", "every peoples", and "all men" because pantas is plural. Because of this, Jesus says He will draw persons from every people group, like nation, per John 12:32 (Praise God, @Scott Downey pointed out "all peoples" in post #2882).
   
5. Jesus can say one thing with multiple meanings.
   
6. there is no indication for a supposed ability for man to choose Jesus for salvation respecting the recorded Word in John 12:32.
   
7. Christ draws all to himself by way of the Word of God, the Holy Spirit, the Power of God.
   
8. In effect, you persist in asserting that God's will is soooo weak that God fails to save some people from the wrath of God for whom Jesus died.
   
   Somewhere, there is a lady who rejected Jesus Christ, and she died while she rejected Jesus Christ.
   
   The gospel, the Jesus, that you confess failed to save her even though your Jesus died for her sins. The atonement sacrifice of your Jesus Christ was insufficient for her to enter his Joy, so she who died suffers the wrath of God because your he who died is miserably weak. (Galatians 1:6-7)
   
   Truly, the gospel of Jesus Christ includes that He succeeds in saving every single one of the people for whom he died from the wrath of God (John 10:28). Jesus Christ is Mighty God (Isaiah 9:6), and there is none like God (Isaiah 46:9).

Boy, Renniks, your humanistic assertion that man can choose Jesus is ungodly, unscriptural and a denial of the Word of God because Christ says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation).

Lord Jesus Christ died exclusively to save all the people who believe in Jesus whom the father has sent (John 6:29, John 10:27).

Why do you just repeat your self?
God doesn't fail because his intention is to save those who trust him. He does exactly that.

"You keep him in perfect peace whose mind is stayed on you, because he trusts in you."

Notice this is conditional.

"Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved."

Notice this is conditional.

"But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God."

Notice this is conditional.

 

[Renniks]

The reason these disciples stopped walking with Christ, is they had not been given to Christ by the Father, so they could not believe in Him.

Wrong. The reason they left is because they refused to learn from God that Jesus was truly God incarcerated.

45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

Why was Jesus goading them for what they could not do? How absurd! Jesus was being evangelistic.

And let us not forget that Jesus chose the disciples but one of them was not saved.

 

[Kermos]

Why do you just repeat your self?
God doesn't fail because his intention is to save those who trust him. He does exactly that.

"You keep him in perfect peace whose mind is stayed on you, because he trusts in you."

Notice this is conditional.

"Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved."

Notice this is conditional.

"But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God."

Notice this is conditional.

Your gospel is so weak that you could not contend with a single point about John 12:32 as presented in the post to which you replied.

You presented:

"You keep him in perfect peace whose mind is stayed on you, because he trusts in you." (Isaiah 26:3)

The clause "he trusts in you" is a fruit of the Spirit (John 15:5), not man, but truly "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29).

Isaiah 26:3 is conditional on God alone.

You presented:

"Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." (Romans 10:9)

The "confess" is a fruit of the Spirit (John 15:5), not man, and the "believe" is "the work of God" (John 6:29).

Romans 10:9 is conditional on God alone.

You presented:

"But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God." (John 1:12)

You wickedly chopped off the full sentence, that is subtracted from the Apostle's writing, which is:

"But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God." (John 1:12-13)

See "received" which happens to a person uncontingent of the person.

See not "of the will of man".

See "believe" is "the work of God" (John 6:29).

John 1:12-13 is conditional on God alone.

Again, the gospel, the Jesus, that you confess fails to save persons even though your Jesus died for such persons sins. The atonement sacrifice of your Jesus Christ was insufficient for those persons to enter his Joy, so those persons who died suffer the wrath of God because your he who died is miserably weak (Galatians 1:6-7).

Truly, Lord Jesus Christ died exclusively to save all the people who believe in Jesus whom the father has sent (John 6:29, John 10:27).

 

[Renniks]

See "received" which happens to a person uncontingent of the person.

See not "of the will of man".

See "believe" is "the work of God" (John 6:29).

No, no and no. You reversed the order. Believe comes first then being born again which is God's work. The belief is not God believing in himself! How ridiculous!

 

[Renniks]

Again, the gospel, the Jesus, that you confess fails to save persons even though your Jesus died for such persons sins. The atonement sacrifice of your Jesus Christ was insufficient for those persons to enter his Joy,

Not. It's not insufficient. It's fully sufficient for whosoever will believe. God isn't saving people against their will. And it never fails to save those who meet the condition set by God for salvation.

 

[Renniks]

Christ draws all to himself by way of the Word of God, the Holy Spirit, the Power of God.

Yes he does. And many reject his drawing.
Some even after salvation fall away.
There's many atheists on these forums who claimed once to be Christians. I have no reason to doubt that most were. While you in your Calvinism have to make up some silly tale about them never being saved to begin with.
"So, as the Holy Spirit says:

“Today, if you hear his voice,
8 do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion,
during the time of testing in the wilderness,
9 where your ancestors tested and tried me,
though for forty years they saw what I did.
10 That is why I was angry with that generation;
I said, ‘Their hearts are always going astray,
and they have not known my ways.’
11 So I declared on oath in my anger,
‘They shall never enter my rest.’ ”

12 See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. "